Novel Concept/Idea: The Bowling ball does not matter??

[Aslan]

Okay….so this past year…in addition to learning everything I could about bowling…I've become fascinated with bowling balls and their specifications and how the physics behind the bowling balls causes them to behave. I'm like Chris Barnes except better looking and not nearly as good at bowling. :cool:

Anyhoo…today I conducted an experiment…thats not totally conclusive yet…but;

I had two balls (same ball, manufacture, model, weight) drilled differently. The idea behind this was to create one ball that had a very angular back end…that could go long and "snap" while the other ball still had an angular back end…but not so dramatic.

Well, preliminary results are….there is either very, very minimal difference…OR…the one drilled less aggressively actually hooks more. :confused:

No, this was only phase one of the test. The more aggressive ball has not yet been resurfaced…I'm going to bring it down to a 500 abralon level and that will be the final "say" in the matter. And it MUST be noted that my rev rate is quite low…those with higher rev rates are likely to see more variation in drilling differences.

So tonight, at practice…I did another experiment… I decided to take all FIVE of the bowling balls in my arsenal and bowl a game with each one…one game "outside" (up the 6-8 boards), one game "middle" (standing just left of center and throwing towards the 10-12 boards), and one game playing "inside" (standing about 5 boards in from the left gutter and throwing up the center arrow area)…

The idea behind this experiment is simple; IF balls and their specifications and surfaces and drillings make a significant difference…THEN I should see some of these balls do well in one area and not another and I should see balls that require different standing locations in order to hit the pocket.

Well, I didn't make it all the way through the test…3/5 through the middle and didn't get to start on the "inside" test…but here's the rather interesting data from the "outside" test:

KEY: (R1/L1- R and L denote right and left and the number denotes how many boards from center where the left foot is placed) ("T"#- denotes the target board # with numbering starting from the right side of the lane.)

Hammer Rhythm: R1:T7
Storm Frantic: R0.5:T8
Brunswick Slingshot: R1:T7
Columbia300 Encounter (Agg. Drill): R1:T7
Columbia300 Encounter (Less Agg. Drill): L0.5:T7

As you can see from the results…for 3 of the 5 balls…throwing them up the 7-board…at similar speeds and revolutions…resulted in the same result of hitting the pocket. Now, they may have taken slightly different "tracks" to get to the pocket…but generally they all ended up having the same overall reaction.

The Storm Frantic seemed to hook the most at the 7-board so I had to move in to the 8-board…but generally it was pretty close to the others. And the most "aggressive hooking" ball in the experiment seemed to be the Encounter with the less aggressive drill layout…it was the only one that made me move just left of center (with my left foot)…but again…we're 1 board!

So how can this BE!?? How can 5 very different balls…when rolled the same way at the same speed along the same line ALL hit the pocket!!?

Here are the "specifications" on the balls listed above. As you can see…"on paper" the difference between the Encounter and the Slingshot…is fairly significant. They share pearl coverstocks, but are otherwise completely different. And the Hammer Rhythm has a solid coverstock and should have reacted much differently to the lanes…but it really didn't.

Hammer Rhythm: solid cover stock, symmetric core, 2.48 RG, 0.045 diff., (211.3 PerfectScale).
Storm Frantic: hybrid cover stock, symmetric core, 2.53 RG, 0.045 diff., (189.5 PerfectScale).
Brunswick Slingshot: pearl cover stock, symmetric core, 2.594 RG, 0.017 diff., (157.6 PerfectScale).
Columbia300 Encounter(s): pearl cover stocks, assymetric cores, 2.50 RG, 0.052 diff., (203.8 PerfectScale).

Now…like I said, they did take slightly different paths into the pocket. The Rhythm tended to start hooking earlier, making a rather "lazy" roll into the pocket. The Pearls all went longer and then made a more drastic turn. The Frantic was in between.

So…DID the balls behave as the specs would lead one to behave?? YES. The pearls went longer. The highest RG went longest. The lowest RG started hooking soonest. The highest Diff. had the most "flare". BUT…BUT!! Even though all these little things happened…it didn't CHANGE ANYTHING. The balls all essentially left my hand, traveled over the 7-board at the arrows…and found their way to the pocket.

Any surprises?? Honestly…the SLINGSHOT was the biggest surprise. It seemed to have more flare than a 0.017 diff. would lead one to believe. What about scores and pin carry? See below:

Rhythm: 170; 3 strikes. (1 split)
Frantic: 153; 0 strikes. (1 split)
Slingshot: 190; 4 strikes. (1 split)
Encounter (> Agg.): 133; 3 strikes. (3 splits)
Encounter (< Agg.): 194; 5 strikes. (2 splits)

As was expected, the Encounters were more difficult to control…asymmetric cores, drilled to be aggressive and more angular/less controllable. So when they missed, the tended to leave messy splits. The Rhythm and Slingshot sometimes hit weak but left make-able spares. The Frantic I had to adjust more than the other balls. It seemed to hook too much at the 7-board so that score and lack of striking was partly due to having to adjust more. It was also the only ball NOT at 16lbs.

So, for most…this is the longest and most boring thing ever. For some…merely an exercise in futility because they simply see my rev rate and expect just about any ball not to move much. But thought it was interesting. Because when it's all said and done…I have a 5-ball arsenal that when thrown along the same board from nearly the same spot…all hit the pocket.

And the "middle" experiment (thus far)…even more interesting…3 balls tested…ALL 3 same foot position…same target.

[JJKinGA]

Interesting, but not unexpected. The houseshot does minimize differences, especially in the target when you are near the oil line. For any given oil pattern and lane, you can find a line ot the pocket. The bigger question is will a given ball roll through the pins properly/better. Or have a bit more miss room. Overall, one would expect the bowler's release and the lane conditions (topography and oil pattern) to set the line to the pocket and that would only vary a few boards for changes in bowling balls.

[Stormed1]

As you continue your experiment you will see bigger differences between the balls as you move more into the oil. This will show up more with the Encounter due to the strength of the core and cover of that ball. Describe your drillings between the two balls. Using my own arsenal as an example, playing straighter outside there is only about a 5 board difference with my feet between my Disturbed,Primal Rage, Venom Shock, Tribal, IQ Tour Pearl andvenom Shock have basically the same layout. Fusion, Deranged, Rising Star and Ascent PEARL. All of these with the exception of the Venom Shock and Ascent have basically the same layout. Pin to PAP of 4.5", drill angles of 45-60 degrees and a VAL angle of 35 degrees. As I move into the oil the differences become dramatic. Just using the Primal Rage and Tribal ( same cover, different core) when I move in if I'm striking with the PR if I throw the Tribal the same line I hit the 3 pin verses the pocket. If I throw the Ascent I hit the 6 pin. When playing outside the Didturbed,Pr and VS will hit flat because they "burn up" and loose energy. The Tribal will go through the pins " too hard" and leave a lot of 4-9's.

[Amyers]

I can't say that I'm surprised about the drillings I think that is way over rated. I'm a little surprised that balls were so similar but I would put that at 2 factors.

1. THS your walled at both sides so your not going to see as much difference as you might expect also you reported they were going in the pocket. What is your definition of a pocket hit? If you take the lightest possible hit and take out the head pin and the full on down the middle we are talking about 8-10 boards in the pocket if we are being that vague with it.

2. I think the outside lack of oil is playing a little roll here the little bit of revs you do have are just burning up not sure even when you move in if we are really going to see that much difference.

Did you try any of these with your cupped wrist more loft style. would be interesting to see if the additional revs caused the differences to stand out.

On the ball drilling I'm off the opinion that the most you are going to change is a board or two between drillings and that is less than most bowlers operating error anyway.

[Aslan]

Interesting, but not unexpected. The houseshot does minimize differences,
It will be interesting to see if bigger differences are noted on the Sport patterns. I play the Wolf Sunday...so, that should be an adventure!


As you continue your experiment you will see bigger differences between the balls as you move more into the oil..
Thats why I'm going to do the same experiment at all 3 tracks (outside, middle, and inside). I'd say, early results are leading to the opinion that with a rev rate < 250...thats probably the main reason I see no difference between all 5 balls.


What is your definition of a pocket hit?
I was counting a "pocket hit" as anything that hit between the 1 and 3-pin. So I didn't count shots through the head or brooklyn. But yes, I counted straight and light hits as pocket hits...they are "technically" pocket hits...the lighter ones had less pin carry than the more solid ones...of course.


Did you try any of these with your cupped wrist more loft style. would be interesting to see if the additional revs caused the differences to stand out.

I actually DID try and throw one of the Encounters 5 frames with my old higher loft/speed style. It didn't change anything other than decreasing accuracy. The additional revs are being couter-acted by the additional speed and loft of the shot. I don't know if there's some chart out there or not...but for me..

Lets say;
14mph shot, 160 rpms. (6-7ft projection)
21mph shot, 275 rpms. (12-15ft loft)

The only way I've been able to increase rev rate without screwing with the speed/loft is to sort of "flip" the ball...where I keep the lower speed....but sort of "flip" the ball off my wrist...almost like a thumbless style where your hand is under the ball and you're just "spinning" it. That is likely going to be the only way for me to play a truly inside shot...but it doesn't help pin carry much because the speed is 13-14mph...even less at the pins.

[RobLV1]

Very interesting experiment. Part of the misconception about bowling balls, as we've discussed so often, is that bowlers actually think that one ball hooks more than another. It doesn't. It just hooks earlier. Your experiment verifies this. Now, the interesting thing is that less experienced bowlers think that the reason to use one ball over another is to get to the pocket. It isn't. The reason for choosing one ball over another is it's ability to carry the corners, particularly the ten pin once it gets to the pocket. Hopefully, your experiment will help bowlers to understand this. If you don't have a release that can create a lot of entry angle, then no ball with any layout imaginable is going to compensate for it. For every $200 spent on a bowling ball that is going to be the magic one that is going to hook for you, you can get four to six lessons, depending on the particular coaches rate, that will help you to learn to hook the ball yourself.

[Aslan]

Very interesting experiment. Part of the misconception about bowling balls, as we've discussed so often, is that bowlers actually think that one ball hooks more than another. It doesn't. It just hooks earlier. Your experiment verifies this. Now, the interesting thing is that less experienced bowlers think that the reason to use one ball over another is to get to the pocket. It isn't. The reason for choosing one ball over another is it's ability to carry the corners, particularly the ten pin once it gets to the pocket. Hopefully, your experiment will help bowlers to understand this. If you don't have a release that can create a lot of entry angle, then no ball with any layout imaginable is going to compensate for it. For every $200 spent on a bowling ball that is going to be the magic one that is going to hook for you, you can get four to six lessons, depending on the particular coaches rate, that will help you to learn to hook the ball yourself.

Now THIS is something I can agree 100% with!!!

Realize, there is going to be some video coming of the initial experiment, ball drilling, and the initial test of the two balls in question.

However, given that there was absolutely no discernable difference between the 2...and given the recent experiement that I am in the middle of conducting...and the FOLLOW-UP experiment where I re-surface the more aggressive Encounter...I'm going to wait until I have some more footage and then do quite a bit of editing.

But just so everyone knows, there is going to be some video to accompany this experiment.

[fortheloveofbowling]

I must say that when i'm on a tougher pattern my first concern is finding the pocket. If i can do that and at least flat 10 on a shot i can then try to adjust speed or release to then get the corners out. I guess it just comes down to how you approach a game plan.

[Aslan]

Here is the rest of the data on the "middle" line and "outside" line:

KEY: (R1/L1- R and L denote right and left and the number denotes how many boards from center where the left foot is placed) ("T"#- denotes the target board # with numbering starting from the right side of the lane.)

Middle
Hammer Rhythm: L4:T11
Storm Frantic: L4:T11
Brunswick Slingshot: L5:T11
Columbia300 Encounter (Agg. Drill): L3:T10
Columbia300 Encounter (Less Agg. Drill): L5:T11

Okay...so just like the outside line...very little difference going from ball to ball.

How bout scores/details?

Rhythm: 170; 4 strikes. (0 splits)
Frantic: 168; 3 strikes. (1 split)
Slingshot: 192; 7 strikes. (0 splits)
Encounter (> Agg.): 146; 3 strikes. (0 splits)
Encounter (< Agg.): 145; 2 strikes. (4 splits)

The biggest surprise here was that the Slingshot was actually the most aggressively reacting and best performning ball of the group. The <agg. drilled Encounter also had the same aggressive line but was the worst performing, mostly due to some problems if the shot went slightly left of target.

So, what about the INSIDE LINE!!? The ROB MAUTNER LINE!? Isn't THAT where we'd expect these fancy new pearl coverstock balls to show some real difference!!? Le't's see:

Inside
Hammer Rhythm: L13:T18
Storm Frantic: L12:T17
Brunswick Slingshot: L15:T19
Columbia300 Encounter (Agg. Drill): L14:T17
Columbia300 Encounter (Less Agg. Drill): L15:T18

AGAIN...we see very little variation from ball to ball!!!

How bout scores/details?

Rhythm: 134; 2 strikes. (1 split)
Frantic: 117; 0 strikes. (2 splits)
Slingshot: 143; 3 strikes. (2 splits)
Encounter (> Agg.): 134; 2 strikes. (2 splits)
Encounter (< Agg.): 115; 0 strikes. (2 splits)

As you can see...the INSIDE line...is for the BIRDS in my opinion. At least birds that can put more than 250rpms on the ball. To play that line, I had to take off the wrist positioner, slow things down, and go back to my old ways of "trying" to add revs to the ball by tossing it a bit. There was just no way it would come back if I didn't. Thats another reason the scores are so low, I'd try my normal release in the beginning, watch the ball hit the 6-10 area...then adjust not only the line, but the release.

So there is the rest of the data. It clearly shows TWO things (in my opinion):

1) With my style, ball changes have relatively little effect. Nice to know now that I have a 4-ball roller bag! :mad:
2) The OUTSIDE is my "A-Game" with the middle being a close 2nd and my "B-Game". The INSIDE is certainly a DISTANT 3rd and my "C-Game".

I'm not totally giving up on playing inside...with some work I might be able to find a better line than the ones I was using...perhaps targeting slightly left of center rather than right of center. And maybe as I improve my release...again, could be a better option. But right now...the outside and middle work...so thats where I'll focus.

As a Part III to this experiment, I am going to try to bring the more aggressively drilled ball down to 500 Abralon...and then try a comparison test between the two Encounters. If ANYTHING is going to create a difference...layout didn't seem to...I'm thinking the surface change has the best shot.

[Amyers]

Cant say I'm overly surprised here if you throw the ball up the back and without any cup of the wrist your just throwing a straight ball at the pocket as you move left your just making your target smaller. Until you develop additional revs its not going to matter on those inside lines.

Taking the ball down to 500 is going to make the situation worse the ball will just burn off the little bit of revs you have that much sooner. I feel this is why you are getting the better reaction out of the sling shot than you are your other pieces is the milder core with a highly polished surface allows your ball to retain the energy you have better. if I was going to change it go the other way try 4000 with a very high grit polish

[Aslan]

@ Amyers

The other Encounter is just as polished as the Slingshot. If it was simply that the Pearls weren't burning out too early...I'd see even more reaction out of them.

I'm not sure how I feel about the "losing energy/burning out" thing. I understand the concept, but personally I've not seen it in my game.

Again, if you have higher revs...a stronger surface will cause that ball to start using those revs sooner...maybe sooner than you want...and you get that burning out effect. But without those revs...the surface (for me) only seems to change when the ball starts making a slight turn into the pocket. And the Pearls seem to all take too long to do that. I don't have the revs to generate the "snap" once the Pearls hit friction.

The more aggressive surface won't give me any more "snap"....but it'll hopefully five me a different angle into the pocket. Right now, having both Encounters with the same surface is rather a waste of space in my bag....since they react in virtually identical ways. Putting surface on one might give me enough of a different reaction to justify carrying them both.

[Amyers]

I don't know. I know there are differences in our games but at my ball speed and revs if I get equipment with too much surface it just burns up and hits like a turd. I have never thrown well with equipment below 2000

[Aslan]

Final Comparison:

I took the more aggressively drilled Encounter to a pro shop and had it brought down to 500 Abralon and then I scuffed it up with some 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper. I then took the ball to the lanes to see if this surface change would affect the ball….which up until this point, despite the more aggressive drilling layout, was virtually identical to the less aggressively drilled Encounter.

Results:
Outside Line:

Previous: R1:T7
Now: L2:T9

This means that the surface gained me about 1 board. Previously I was laying it down about 9-board, crossing over 7-board at the arrows. I was now laying it down about 12-board and crossing the arrows at the 9-board. As far as scores; I was able to score a 169 versus a 133 previously. Less splits, a smoother arc into the pocket as it read the lanes earlier rather than relying on a "snap" at the end.

Middle Line:

Previous: L3:T10
Now: L6:T11

This line is where I saw the most difference; gaining 2 boards. Previously I was laying down about 13-board and crossing the arrows at the 2nd arrow. With the new surface, I was laying the ball down at about the 16-board and crossing the arrows at the 11-board. Scored a 174 versus a 146 previously.

Inside Line:

Previous: L14:T17
Now: L11:T16

This line still gave me trouble…and actually I "lost" reaction with the surface change in terms of boards, losing 2 boards of overall hook. I'm not sure why that happened, but this line requires me to alter my release to add revs to the ball so it may just be a product of the inconsistent shot. Previously I was laying the ball down at about the 24-board and crossing the arrows at about the 17-board. With the new surface I was laying the ball down just left of center and crossing the arrows at about the 16-board. And here the scores went backwards, rolling a 134 previously and now only managing a 117. Just really had a hard time striking on this line.

I'll be shooting some more side-by-side video to compliment the video I already shot which hopefully will show a more marked difference post surface change. Overall, I'm happy with the new surface as I think it gives me a little different look than the other Encounter…something I would use if I was forced into a middle or inside line. I still prefer the less "jumpy" < agg. drilled Encounter for my usual 7-8 board shot up the outside…but I'd prefer this other Encounter once I abandon the outside line to find more oil.

[Amyers]

Final Comparison:

I took the more aggressively drilled Encounter to a pro shop and had it brought down to 500 Abralon and then I scuffed it up with some 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper. I then took the ball to the lanes to see if this surface change would affect the ball….which up until this point, despite the more aggressive drilling layout, was virtually identical to the less aggressively drilled Encounter.

Results:
Outside Line:

Previous: R1:T7
Now: L2:T9

This means that the surface gained me about 1 board. Previously I was laying it down about 9-board, crossing over 7-board at the arrows. I was now laying it down about 12-board and crossing the arrows at the 9-board. As far as scores; I was able to score a 169 versus a 133 previously. Less splits, a smoother arc into the pocket as it read the lanes earlier rather than relying on a "snap" at the end.

Middle Line:

Previous: L3:T10
Now: L6:T11

This line is where I saw the most difference; gaining 2 boards. Previously I was laying down about 13-board and crossing the arrows at the 2nd arrow. With the new surface, I was laying the ball down at about the 16-board and crossing the arrows at the 11-board. Scored a 174 versus a 146 previously.

Inside Line:

Previous: L14:T17
Now: L11:T16

This line still gave me trouble…and actually I "lost" reaction with the surface change in terms of boards, losing 2 boards of overall hook. I'm not sure why that happened, but this line requires me to alter my release to add revs to the ball so it may just be a product of the inconsistent shot. Previously I was laying the ball down at about the 24-board and crossing the arrows at about the 17-board. With the new surface I was laying the ball down just left of center and crossing the arrows at about the 16-board. And here the scores went backwards, rolling a 134 previously and now only managing a 117. Just really had a hard time striking on this line.

I'll be shooting some more side-by-side video to compliment the video I already shot which hopefully will show a more marked difference post surface change. Overall, I'm happy with the new surface as I think it gives me a little different look than the other Encounter…something I would use if I was forced into a middle or inside line. I still prefer the less "jumpy" < agg. drilled Encounter for my usual 7-8 board shot up the outside…but I'd prefer this other Encounter once I abandon the outside line to find more oil.

That's interesting looks like you gained three with the feet and two at your target of course this could have been just differences in the oil since they were shot on different days.

I'm pretty sure if I tried to throw something with that much surface it would hit like a wet paper bag. So it's interesting that you can.

[RobLV1]

A couple of years ago I watched a league bowler practice before league. First he bowled a two-forty-something game using a Taboo spare ball: plastic cover with an aggressive core. Next, he started a game with a Storm Sync, playing the same line, and added more surface because the ball was not hooking enough for him! He could not tell that the ball was so aggressive that it was burning up and going straighter. Stop trying to gauge everything on how many boards a ball covers with a particular drilling and/or a particular surface. As I've said many times before, every ball hooks the same amount, some just hook earlier (cover more boards) and some hook later (cover fewer boards). It's the ball that carries the corner pins for you that "matches up." It's not the one that will get you to the pocket playing the line that you decide you want to play. The lanes are like our wives: you'd better do what THEY tell you to do, or you will find yourself in a world of hurt!

[MICHAEL]

A couple of years ago I watched a league bowler practice before league. First he bowled a two-forty-something game using a Taboo spare ball: plastic cover with an aggressive core. Next, he started a game with a Storm Sync, playing the same line, and added more surface because the ball was not hooking enough for him! He could not tell that the ball was so aggressive that it was burning up and going straighter. Stop trying to gauge everything on how many boards a ball covers with a particular drilling and/or a particular surface. As I've said many times before, every ball hooks the same amount, some just hook earlier (cover more boards) and some hook later (cover fewer boards). It's the ball that carries the corner pins for you that "matches up." It's not the one that will get you to the pocket playing the line that you decide you want to play. The lanes are like our wives: you'd better do what THEY tell you to do, or you will find yourself in a world of hurt!

Good point Rob!! Iceman Always does what he is told by Snow Flake!!! ( my wife)! This burning up thing, vs polish or high grit surface seems to be a KEY component it getting good carry!

I swear to the Gods, that 2 years ago when I was first getting started in bowing,,, (the early years),,, I was at Strike and Spare AMF,, I threw 9,,,, NINE 10 pin leaves, in a role!!!!! (:/

You ask why,,, the guys I was bowing with said: "keep doing the same thing, the oil will break down, and you will start getting carry!"

I have been given that advice MANY times since.... if you have what LOOKS like a great pocket shoot entry, "DON"T change a thing!"

Its all stariting to make a little more sense,,, many variables to deal with when trying to get on top of CARRY, and the 10 pin !

[MICHAEL]

Maybe in your case it doesn't!!! LOL Isn't that a shame, a closet full of bowling balls, and in your case, they might all as well be the rubber ball bats! (:)
The Concept, just might be true in some bowlers case! :rolleyes:

Iceman will be ridding his bike, with a trailer full of balls... this early fall,,, maybe around my birthday sept 24! Would be a great ride to Vegas!! Then we shall meet Aslan!

Maybe Iceman can do what no other coach can do, including Rob! You need more then mere coaching.... you need the" ICEMAN secrets to successful Bowling Techniques, for the un-coachable!" It will be out in book form soon at a liquor stores near you!

THE LOOK OF UN-Coachable below! Rob,,, you KNOW THIS LOOK!!! Lights are on, but no one HOME!

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/Brian-Regan-Dumb-Look_zpscf3c325f.gif (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/Brian-Regan-Dumb-Look_zpscf3c325f.gif.html)

[rv driver]

That's interesting looks like you gained three with the feet and two at your target of course this could have been just differences in the oil since they were shot on different days.

I'm pretty sure if I tried to throw something with that much surface it would hit like a wet paper bag. So it's interesting that you can.
Those are some interesting analogies, Amyers! I gotta wonder: have you ever tried to hit the pins with a turd or a wet paper bag? I just have this sorta sick curiosity here... ;-)

[rv driver]

Maybe in your case it doesn't!!! LOL Isn't that a shame, a closet full of bowling balls, and in your case, they might all as well be the rubber ball bats! (:)
The Concept, just might be true in some bowlers case! :rolleyes:

Iceman will be ridding his bike, with a trailer full of balls... this early fall,,, maybe around my birthday sept 24! Would be a great ride to Vegas!! Then we shall meet Aslan!

Maybe Iceman can do what no other coach can do, including Rob! You need more then mere coaching.... you need the" ICEMAN secrets to successful Bowling Techniques, for the un-coachable!" It will be out in book form soon at a liquor stores near you!

THE LOOK OF UN-Coachable below! Rob,,, you KNOW THIS LOOK!!! Lights are on, but no one HOME!

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/Brian-Regan-Dumb-Look_zpscf3c325f.gif (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/Brian-Regan-Dumb-Look_zpscf3c325f.gif.html)
Take a video camera. I'd like to see the attempted spanking thereof... morbid curiosity, y'know...

[rv driver]

A couple of years ago I watched a league bowler practice before league. First he bowled a two-forty-something game using a Taboo spare ball: plastic cover with an aggressive core. Next, he started a game with a Storm Sync, playing the same line, and added more surface because the ball was not hooking enough for him! He could not tell that the ball was so aggressive that it was burning up and going straighter. Stop trying to gauge everything on how many boards a ball covers with a particular drilling and/or a particular surface. As I've said many times before, every ball hooks the same amount, some just hook earlier (cover more boards) and some hook later (cover fewer boards). It's the ball that carries the corner pins for you that "matches up." It's not the one that will get you to the pocket playing the line that you decide you want to play. The lanes are like our wives: you'd better do what THEY tell you to do, or you will find yourself in a world of hurt!
You're being a good coach, Rob! This is a new way of explaining it (at least to me). I've never heard someone say "Play to what carries the corner pins." I usually hear, "Play to the line that will get you to the pocket." But looking back at the PBA vids where guys switch balls, they don't switch because their line is burnt out. They switch balls because they're leaving corner pins. And I assume they're leaving corner pins because their balls are bleeding energy off the particular oil breakdown.

[Aslan]

It's the ball that carries the corner pins for you that "matches up." It's not the one that will get you to the pocket playing the line that you decide you want to play.

Rob...Iceman's acid flashback aside....the problem with that advice...which MAY WELL be very SOUND....is it doesn't explain HOW to do that.

Do you throw the ball with your eyes closed at the 2nd arrow to start? Do you draw a number out of a hat and aim at that board to start? You have to have a line to start with...and make adjustments from.

What would the pros say? Well, I've heard at least two PBA pros say "you play the line you're most comfortable playing to start with. Thats your starting point. From there you make adjustments based on how the ball and lanes are reacting."

So ABSOLUTELY...the lanes are going to dictate how you play them...thats absolutely a no brainer. But where do you start!??? If I throw the ball outside, you say it's dirty out there. I play the 2nd arrow and you say thats the worst place to play because it's all burnt up. I play the inside and score a 116 and then what?? I've tried the ARSENAL idea...and guess what...all 5 balls did the SAME THING!!!

Why am I hearing all this nonsense about ball changes when I just threw 5-balls up the 11-board and stood within 3 inches of the same place!?

Now you say it's not about hitting the pocket??? Hitting the pocket is EVERYTHING!!! If you can't hit the pocket...arsenals, technique, spare balls, wrist guards...NONE of these things matter...NONE of them....because if you can't hit the pocket...carrying a 10-pin is the LEAST of your problems!

Okay...so I'm settling down...it was a frustrating league night last night so maybe I'm overly irritable...but sometime between now and Lesson #2 and me eventually dropping a serious hammer of a beatdown on Iceman and his tricycle trip of futility....we need some REAL answers:

1) WHERE DO WE START!??
Picture it...a boy arrives at the lanes...he has a shiny bowling ball....he wants to throw it...he gets to the approach....where should he stand? Where should he aim?

Since I know you won't advocate him throwing up ANY board < 12....lets assume you say...board 26.

Okay...so where is he standing? What does he do if he throws that ball over board 26...and the ball sails ever so straightly into the 10-pin?? I mean, I would say, "Hooray! Now we have our spare shot dialed in...but I imagine thats a lie...since that was our strike ball and we'd never use a strike ball to pick up a 10-pin!!!

IT'S MADNESS!!

So...for those of us that are NOT gifted (like Iceman et al)....and NOT "power players"....and not previous youth champions...lets start ALL OVER...lets start at the beginning...step 1. Because I've pretty much mastered all the items from lesson #1...except the crossover step is still a work in progress....and while it's made me really accurate and consistent...and a higher average bowler...and a better spare shooter...if I'm still a sack of 160 average garbage with no hopes of ever getting to that elusive 190 level....because I can't seem to find a line to the pocket that doesn't involve a board left of 11...or because I don't know the magic forumla as to which ball to switch to when ball #1 leaves a 10-pin...then all my "improvement" was irrelevant.

And I swear...if the only answers are "Read Mark Baker's book" and "Just throw like Chris Barnes"....I'm going to strangle something!!!

:mad:

[RobLV1]

Calm down, Aslan. Here's what you do. Start with your most comfortable line, for example, stand 20 and look 10. Throw a shot and watch the result. Next, move five and five right; stand 15 and look 5. Throw a shot and watch the result. Next, stand 25 and look 15. Throw a shot and watch the result. When you see the ball that has the motion that you're looking for, adjust off of that line, changing angles slightly until you can carry the corner pins. If, for instance, you stand 20 and look ten, and you hit a little high and leave a four, then move to 22, looking 11, etc. You can't just arbitrarily start playing a line because you want to. I doesn't work that way. See what the lanes have to give you, and go from there.

[rv driver]

Calm down, Aslan. Here's what you do. Start with your most comfortable line, for example, stand 20 and look 10. Throw a shot and watch the result. Next, move five and five right; stand 15 and look 5. Throw a shot and watch the result. Next, stand 25 and look 15. Throw a shot and watch the result. When you see the ball that has the motion that you're looking for, adjust off of that line, changing angles slightly until you can carry the corner pins. If, for instance, you stand 20 and look ten, and you hit a little high and leave a four, then move to 22, looking 11, etc. You can't just arbitrarily start playing a line because you want to. I doesn't work that way. See what the lanes have to give you, and go from there.
Love that reasoning and systematic approach. Does one typically leave corner pins because the ball is (as Amyers colorfully puts it) hitting like a wet sack?

[Amyers]

Those are some interesting analogies, Amyers! I gotta wonder: have you ever tried to hit the pins with a turd or a wet paper bag? I just have this sorta sick curiosity here... ;-)

No but I've thrown some balls that hit like it.

[Amyers]

Love that reasoning and systematic approach. Does one typically leave corner pins because the ball is (as Amyers colorfully puts it) hitting like a wet sack?

It can be it can also be because the ball is taking a poor angle to the pocket or not rolling long enough. There are many reasons that can cause corner pin leaves but the easiest to solve is making sure you have proper angle and sufficient energy.

[Amyers]

Calm down, Aslan. Here's what you do. Start with your most comfortable line, for example, stand 20 and look 10. Throw a shot and watch the result. Next, move five and five right; stand 15 and look 5. Throw a shot and watch the result. Next, stand 25 and look 15. Throw a shot and watch the result. When you see the ball that has the motion that you're looking for, adjust off of that line, changing angles slightly until you can carry the corner pins. If, for instance, you stand 20 and look ten, and you hit a little high and leave a four, then move to 22, looking 11, etc. You can't just arbitrarily start playing a line because you want to. I doesn't work that way. See what the lanes have to give you, and go from there.

This is good advice that is more than I usually try I generally start with two lines I'll have to try making three moves

[Amyers]

Man ice is on acid and Aslans either overdosing on espresso or meth.

[rv driver]

It can be it can also be because the ball is taking a poor angle to the pocket or not rolling long enough. There are many reasons that can cause corner pin leaves but the easiest to solve is making sure you have proper angle and sufficient energy.
the "sufficient energy" thing is what I'm trying to hone in on here, because Rob put such a new concept out there (AFAIC).

[rv driver]

Man ice is on acid and Aslans either overdosing on espresso or meth.
We need to get these two together and lock them up in a bowling alley with a 6-ball arsenal and a pitcher of beer each. They'd reach critical mass, and the resultant chain reaction would fuel sport bowling for the next century.

[rv driver]

This is good advice that is more than I usually try I generally start with two lines I'll have to try making three moves
Yeah! Can't wait to try this, myself!

[Aslan]

Calm down, Aslan.
Sorry…but after 6 straight weeks of not bowling over 500 on league night…I mean, I'm at my wits end.


Here's what you do. Start with your most comfortable line, for example, stand 20 and look 10. Throw a shot and watch the result. Next, move five and five right; stand 15 and look 5. Throw a shot and watch the result. Next, stand 25 and look 15. Throw a shot and watch the result. When you see the ball that has the motion that you're looking for, adjust off of that line, changing angles slightly until you can carry the corner pins. If, for instance, you stand 20 and look ten, and you hit a little high and leave a four, then move to 22, looking 11, etc. You can't just arbitrarily start playing a line because you want to. I doesn't work that way. See what the lanes have to give you, and go from there.

Okay, I'll give it a shot…but let me throw this scenario at you using that concept and see what YOUD do.

Shot 1 (lane 1): I stand 25 and shoot over 11. It strikes.

Shot 2 (lane 2): I throw the same line on the other lane and it goes through the head leaving me a 4-6 split.

Shot 3 (lane 1): I move right, standing center and throwing up the 6…it catches the dry and goes through the center leaving me a 7-10.

Shot 4 (lane 2): Same shot, other lane, I come in light and leave the single 4-pin.

Shot 5 (lane 1): Now I'm standing at 30 and targeting 16; it goes completely right, doesn't come back…I take out the 6-9-10.

Shot 6 (lane 2): Same line, other lane, it makes it back but hits light and I leave the single 4-pin again.

Now, just hypothetical…but it seems like in that scenario…my first shot on lane 1…seemed closest. But on Lane 2, I went through the head with that shot, then hit light with the outside shot, then hit light and left the same pin with the inside shot.

My reaction would be to just play that first line (because it struck on lane 1) and just adjust laterally on lane 2…moving left a little with my feet…to compensate for a lane that seems to be reacting with the ball a bit more. But is that best choice?

One thing I've tried to do is watch the ball go through the pins…try to see if it's more to the left (8-pin) or the right (9-pin). I mean, I'm getting to the pocket…not fast (14mph)…and it seems like the ball is just not quite powerful enough and is deflecting more to the 9-pin side. But if I try to put a little more speed into it…it doesn't seem to want to break towards the pocket and just clips the head-pin leaving a single 2-pin or 2-5.

But it's been a frustrating month as I've watched ball after ball hit that pocket and leave 1-2 pins standing. Not really a 5-pin or 8-pin…so the ball is going through the pocket and hitting the 5 and going into the 8. But it's not driving THROUGH the 5 into that 8-9 space. At least thats what it seems like. I admit sometimes I forget to watch the ball after the shot or I lose track of it.

I'll try your advice if not Sunday then definitely Thursday. Our team is in the top 4 of 22 and playing another top 4 team next week. Crucial week if we want to have a shot at that trophy. And I can't keep throwing 140s-150s games. Earlier in the season my average was steadily increasing and was headed toward 175. Since then, it's dipped to almost 168.

[RobLV1]

One of the things that I'm seeing a lot this summer, probably as a result of a combination of the new synthetic oils and the high humidity over the past few weeks, is a tremendous variation from lane to lane. It really helps when you can stop thinking about bowling on a "pair" of lanes. Pairs of shoes match. Pairs of socks match. Pairs of gloves match. Pairs of lanes rarely match. Personally, I often end up using two different balls on the two lanes. Once I find a shot on one lane, I'll stick to it, and see if I can find a ball that will let me play a similar shot on the other lane. Notice that I said similar, not the same. Just this past Tuesday night I shot 185-215-253 using a Meanstreak Brawler with very little surface on the left lane, standing 33 and playing a tight line to the pocket, and a Fortera Exile with a lot of surface on the right lane, standing 33 and swinging it out.

[MICHAEL]

Man ice is on acid and Aslans either overdosing on espresso or meth.


Iceman has never did acid, unlike MAYBE MY good friend Aslan!! I kid him, he kids me,,, O,,, I only have one cup of coffee a day, but I hear Aslan drinks his coffee with two shots of the cheapest whisky he can find!

lighten up people,,, in reality we are Good Friends,,, don't you ever kid your buddies!!! Wow!!! :confused:
\

[MICHAEL]

We need to get these two together and lock them up in a bowling alley with a 6-ball arsenal and a pitcher of beer each. They'd reach critical mass, and the resultant chain reaction would fuel sport bowling for the next century.

I LIKE THAT IDEA sooooooooo much that I am seriously thinking about meeting ASLAN on my birthday this Sept, the 24th for a challenge in Vegas! Long trip for me, but just a short one form him. It would be a blast to Jump on my trusty Goldwing, hook up the trailer, and head out,,, Vegas in two days! What lanes would we bowl on ROB? Do you have both wood and synthetic in your home town?

I wouldn't mind bowling with both of you!

I guess I could google the bowling establishments in the Vegas area!

This needs to HAPPEN my Good Friend! Once and for all can you beat and old broken down (((then 66 year old???))))

A newbie to bowling in every sense of the word!!!!! With only 3 years of bowling under his belt??

YES It needs to be filmed for the annals, history, of bowling!! LOL

I should be able to get across the mountains before the snow and cold weather hits, especially if I go the southern route!!! I have been
caught on my motorcycle before in October in light snow!! LIKE I HAVE always said,,,, Iceman does not LIKE SNOW,,, ice no problem! (:)

What are you doing September the 24th Asaln!!!

A date that just might change the spin of the Earth's Orbit!! Two warriors, meet,,,, ONE leaves with the GLORY!!!!

ICEMAN????

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/5674a6a9-6db5-4b5d-abd6-d0052f547789_zps35c22353.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/5674a6a9-6db5-4b5d-abd6-d0052f547789_zps35c22353.jpg.html)

or

ASLAN the lion man!!
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/8d6d6580-b3b7-4d30-8b82-93864a23b137_zps19d894e8.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/8d6d6580-b3b7-4d30-8b82-93864a23b137_zps19d894e8.jpg.html)

Although my average might be slightly higher then the Lion man's, he has a way of meeting THE the challenge! Ask Mike White about this anomaly!!
YOUTH and knowledge far superior to mine, SCRATCH ASLAN,,, What do you say!!!

[Aslan]

Well, I have a reservation in Laughlin on the 26th for sweeps…but if the infamous Iceman is willing to make that trip…I could probably re-arrange my schedule a bit and head to Vegas first…stay there the 24th, then check in early in Laughlin on the 25th.

See if I can't get lesson #2 from Rob while I'm out there…so yes Iceman…I'd be up for that challenge.

Now normally, I'd expect 28 pins handicap per game given I'm rolling in with a 170 average and only 1 year of experience versus a guy with 3 years of experience and a rumored 195-210 average. But, if it really IS his birthday…I mean, to live as long as he has is QUITE the accomplishment…I'd give him the 28 pins.

Now, if Rob joins in…I don't know what his average is…but he's an unofficial pro with 35 years of experience on his HOME LANES/conditions. He's either offering up some handicap or giving me a 50% reduced lesson cost…cuz I'm confident and all…and obviously a future USBC Senior Masters Champion…but at THIS POINT in my development…we have to be reasonable.

[Aslan]

Well Rob, I did use your advice during my VBT Tour game today.

Ended up playing the 11-bard instead of the 8-board where I usually play.

Positives: I did strike more.

Negatives: Still couldn't play the inside (targeting 16) line. Sometimes got confused and aimed at the 8-board accidentally…which when you're standing at L6 and laying it down at the 4-board…with my low rev rate…you quickly realize something is wrong! Also, I never knew when I should "ball down" versus continuing to move laterally.

In my old system…I'd move 3 boards laterally and then switch my target left…and continue doing that for a certain number of moves…THEN ball down. But using this new system…I'm wondering..if you hit light on a good shot…leave a 10-pin or 6-10…do you move a board left? Or ball down? I'm assuming you move left for a certain number of times. But when do you switch your target versus balling down?

Confusing.

[RobLV1]

In terms of finding that initial line where you have the best carry, there are three types of moves to make. The one you ususually use is called a parallel adjustment. It includes moving left with your feet and your eyes. The most common parallel move is 2:1 (two left with your feet and one left with your eyes). You can also just use one move to adjust your angle. If you are coming in light, you can try keeping your eyes the same and moving a board or two right with your feet, or you can try keeping your feet where they are and moving a board or two left with your eyes.

In terms of balling down, I really think that many bowlers have begun abusing this idea as a way of limiting how far they have to move on the approach. The next time you are practicing, as you move left, try going to a more aggressive ball rather than a less aggressive ball. Lower rev bowlers often need more aggressive equipment as they move left to keep from "trying to get the ball back."

[bobforsaken]

To try and find an initial line I always tried this and maybe that is part of my problem. I'm looking at this too narrowly.

Pattern Length -31. So I play on a 42 foot pattern I do 42-31 and get 11. That 11 board is where I want the ball to exit out of the pattern. So I line up so that I can throw it straight up the 11 board and see what happens. (say standing 18 throwing 11 for example) If I hit right of the pocket or come in light I make a 2 and 1 move to the right. (16:10 or 14:9 or 12:8 etc) If instead I go High to the pocket or hit on the left side of the pin deck, I make 2 and 1 moves to the left until I find the pocket. (20:12 or 22:13 or 24:14)

That is how I find my initial line.. but occasionally I'll find the pocket but not carry the corners.. and for that I usually adjust a board left or right keeping the same target.

I'm a new bowler so I don't think this should be taken as "advice" necessarily.. but I find it a system that kinda works for me to at least stop wandering the wilderness.

[Amyers]

To try and find an initial line I always tried this and maybe that is part of my problem. I'm looking at this too narrowly.

Pattern Length -31. So I play on a 42 foot pattern I do 42-31 and get 11. That 11 board is where I want the ball to exit out of the pattern. So I line up so that I can throw it straight up the 11 board and see what happens. (say standing 18 throwing 11 for example) If I hit right of the pocket or come in light I make a 2 and 1 move to the right. (16:10 or 14:9 or 12:8 etc) If instead I go High to the pocket or hit on the left side of the pin deck, I make 2 and 1 moves to the left until I find the pocket. (20:12 or 22:13 or 24:14)

That is how I find my initial line.. but occasionally I'll find the pocket but not carry the corners.. and for that I usually adjust a board left or right keeping the same target.

I'm a new bowler so I don't think this should be taken as "advice" necessarily.. but I find it a system that kinda works for me to at least stop wandering the wilderness.

One I think this formula is more for sport patters where there is no dry until you reach the end of the pattern (sport patterns are flat the oil goes from edge to edge THS patterns have dry already beyond ten board) so if you start the ball at eleven your starting the ball at the edge of the oil/dry on THS

Two this formula describes where your break point should be not necessarily where you should throw the ball. This formula is to help you understand where the ball should be to start hooking not which board you should be aiming at. You can get the ball to eleven at the breakpoint from almost anywhere on the lane.

[bobforsaken]

Two this formula describes where your break point should be not necessarily where you should throw the ball. This formula is to help you understand where the ball should be to start hooking not which board you should be aiming at. You can get the ball to eleven at the breakpoint from almost anywhere on the lane.

It makes sense what you said about sport patterns and the initial formula. But I guess I thought that if I'm throwing it up the 11 board and its hooking before the end of the pattern I'm not exiting the pattern at the 11 board and therefore going high. I make a 2 and 1 left (which is still AIMING towards that 11 board at the end of the pattern) to stay in more oil and prevent the early hook. If its still hooking before the end of the pattern, then its still going high. Make another 2 and 1 left and stay in more oil longer.. etc etc. Lather rinse repeat until the ball doesn't hook too early and exits the pattern at the 11 board (or there abouts)

Where am I going wrong with my thinking of how that system is supposed to work? In this example a higher rev player playing more like 30:17 to 40:22 where a stroker like me plays somewhere between 16:10 through 22:13 (depending on oil conditions obviously.)

[Amyers]

I wouldn't necessarily say wrong with your thinking but your cutting off some other lines that might work and probably aren't finding your miss room also if you throw a slightly shorter pattern you would be at say eight on THS your basically just dropping the ball off in the dry from the start.

Experiment I'm not a huge rev guy either but I can comfortably play anywhere between 5 and 20 at the arrows standing anywhere from 20 to 40 depending on ball and condition. Don't lock yourself in to any one spot experiment and if your not comfortable especially moving in to the left practice it. The more options you have the better off you will be.

[bobforsaken]

Agreed on all counts... I was just commenting specifically on "where to start to find your initial line" to answer the question posed by Aslan. I do find often times I need to move my feet a board or two right or left keeping the same target... but that's about as far as I've wandered away from the system except for when I try to play deep and find a line. My walk path playing steep angles is off so the system stops working for me after about the 30 board.

[Aslan]

The way I determine my initial line is probably unique and you have to realize I practice and bowl a LOT.

But, what I do…is I bowl practice with every ball in my arsenal starting at 2nd arrow…I keep bowling with that ball until I see a "general" strike line develop and I jot down my left foot position and target board. I then do the same exercise for each of the other balls. That creates my "middle" lines for all 5 balls.

I repeat that starting moving right and targeting the 5-board area. I develop a line for all 5 balls out there what I call "outside". I then repeat that standing far left and aiming up the 17-19 board…thats my "inside" line.

I then take each ball and figure out the "net" board movement which gives me a number for "aggression"…I rank the balls from least aggressive to most aggressive and I use the ball in the middle as my benchmark ball. Then, in practice, I'm able to use each "benchmark ball" on the determined lines, both lanes which helps me choose where to play the lanes. To do that with all 5 balls on each line on each lane would take too much time.

So I figure out which is the "middle aggressiveness" ball is and make it the benchmark. Do that for each line (inside, middle, outside). And then figure out in practice which line is playing best on each lane. I then have a lot of options if the lane breaks down…because I have 2 balls to "ball up" to and 2 balls to "ball down" to. Rarely over a standard 3-game league night does the lane break down enough to require a ball change…but thats sort of where my question came in…maybe I'm waiting too long? I don't "think" so…because if that was the case I'd see a consistent bad 3rd game…and my stats don't show that right now. But still, it's something that is on my mind.

[Aslan]

Just wanted to give everyone a quick update…I finished the last part of the video tonight after bowling the VBT. I just need to bring all the footage together, do some editing, and get it published to Youtube. Then I'll get the entire project posted in this post.

Figured I'd hurry and revive this before Bowl1820 closes it!

[Aslan]

Well, thought I'd get at least 3/4 of it done tonight…but just found out iMovie08 doesn't have a FastForward feature and much of this video needs to be fast forwarded…so I'm going to have to hope the iMovie11 on my laptop will open the iMovie08 project or I need to just start over using iMovie11 on the laptop.

I try to do them in my desktop in iMovie08 because the desktop still has nearly 250GB of space to move big video files around. The computer is at about 4.7GB so bigger projects tend to push my limits. Now I've moved all the video files to an external hard drive(s)…but I still need to import them temporarily in order to create the video project.

[Perrin]

Very interesting experiment. Part of the misconception about bowling balls, as we've discussed so often, is that bowlers actually think that one ball hooks more than another. It doesn't. It just hooks earlier. Your experiment verifies this. Now, the interesting thing is that less experienced bowlers think that the reason to use one ball over another is to get to the pocket. It isn't. The reason for choosing one ball over another is it's ability to carry the corners, particularly the ten pin once it gets to the pocket. Hopefully, your experiment will help bowlers to understand this. If you don't have a release that can create a lot of entry angle, then no ball with any layout imaginable is going to compensate for it. For every $200 spent on a bowling ball that is going to be the magic one that is going to hook for you, you can get four to six lessons, depending on the particular coaches rate, that will help you to learn to hook the ball yourself.

I don't think I can agree with this. There are cases where a ball that hooks later hooks more overall without burning out. between coverstock, surface prep, lane conditions, and of course release specs... speed, rotation, revs, etc

[Aslan]

I ended up getting most of it edited last night. I just need to add in the last session, edit that last part, then go through it and do some slow motion shots at the end where it's easier to see what each ball did in terms of where it started to hook, the breakpoint, and if it ended up getting to the roll phase and/or burned out.

Preliminarily...looking at the footage only briefly...it looks like with the surfaces the same...the change in drilling layout (which was I think considered by many to be minor)...had really not much effect at all. But the video will have a section where Mike is sort of explaining his thought process behind the layouts he chose so that might help explain it.

However, the SURFACE change DID appear to show a difference in ultimate ball path/reaction. But like Rob said, it didn't seem to make the ball hook MORE (on a normal shot)...it just made it hook earlier. So the less aggressive shiny ball would go up 2nd arrow and hit light...and the surfaced more aggressive version would start hooking much sooner and end up either hitting the pocket flush or even go left of the headpin.

I also threw a couple shots with each ball at the end of the video where I intentionally hit up on the ball a great deal to see if revs made the differences more noticeable. But we'll see if that was conclusive or not. Since it's not my normal release/style...I was probably adding the wrong kinds of revs.

[Perrin]

Here we go.

Radical uploaded a video to their facebook page called Perception versus Reality

It compares the Radical Guru to balls from other manufacturers.

Balls drilled the same. thrown by throwbot so the same on those aspects with a large effort to make the lanes the same for both throws.

The last comparison in the video compares a Radical Guru to a Storm Zero Gravity

The Guru hooks both later and more than the ZG as measured by the CATS

[Mike White]

Here we go.

Radical uploaded a video to their facebook page called Perception versus Reality

It compares the Radical Guru to balls from other manufacturers.

Balls drilled the same. thrown by throwbot so the same on those aspects with a large effort to make the lanes the same for both throws.

The last comparison in the video compares a Radical Guru to a Storm Zero Gravity

The Guru hooks both later and more than the ZG as measured by the CATS



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYXTJTfTPHk

You have to be careful what to get from this kind of video.

It is a marketing tool, and you know how marketing people like to make their product look good, even at the expense of the truth.

First off, throw bot is lined up to throw the Guru on it's strike line.

If it was just intending to shot the Guru hooked more, then throw bot could have lined up to strike with the other brand, then show Guru hook into the nose.

Next is the highlighting of the path the ball takes to the pocket.

When it's the Guru, they were careful to keep the path indicator centered on where the Guru was rolling.

When it's a competitor, the path indicator exaggerates the difference between the two balls.

Finally, for the Guru to get down the lane that far and not hook early, there is plenty of oil on the lane.

How then do other balls seem to be following a slightly different path already noticeable in the first 7-8 feet.

Seems like they may have tinkered with throw bot a little.

[Perrin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYXTJTfTPHk

You have to be careful what to get from this kind of video.

It is a marketing tool, and you know how marketing people like to make their product look good, even at the expense of the truth.

First off, throw bot is lined up to throw the Guru on it's strike line.

If it was just intending to shot the Guru hooked more, then throw bot could have lined up to strike with the other brand, then show Guru hook into the nose.

Next is the highlighting of the path the ball takes to the pocket.

When it's the Guru, they were careful to keep the path indicator centered on where the Guru was rolling.

When it's a competitor, the path indicator exaggerates the difference between the two balls.

Finally, for the Guru to get down the lane that far and not hook early, there is plenty of oil on the lane.

How then do other balls seem to be following a slightly different path already noticeable in the first 7-8 feet.

Seems like they may have tinkered with throw bot a little.

THanks :) I coudln't link the vid from the machine I was posting on.
I should have linked to my other post to show what I was referencing the video for.... that more hook does not 100% equal earlier hook when you are comparing different balls.

I do understand that earlier hook will equal more hook up till the ball rolls out of course especially if you are comparing 2 balls with the same coverstock.

I completely understand it's a marketing video but I'm primarily referncing the CATS data though.
the ball could be knocking down 1 pin for all I care as long as the data provided is accurate.

The beginning of the video outlines the conditions of the testing. so unless they are flat out lying there was no tampering with the lane conditions or throwbot settings.

[Aslan]

60% of the time, it strikes every time...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjvQFtlNQ-M

They need to do a side by side comparison of the Radical Reax Pearl and Radical Reax Pearl Version 2 to explain why they released the first version on July 2013 and then the Version 2 January 2014. I mean, what horrible things are wrong with the first version that you release version 2 only 6 months later?

[MICHAEL]

Both my deadly aims have unique sweet moves to the pocket! I am not a robot, but once I find the line needed the ball will crush the pins! My 4 favorite balls are: Deadly Aim 1 and 2, Hyper Cell, and my old virtual Gravity Nanno! You can make any ball look SUPER, if you set the robot up to the advantage of a particular ball, on a particular lane.

Not a great comparison at all! Doesn't prove much at all other then that shot with the balls!

[Aslan]

Both my deadly aims have unique sweet moves to the pocket! I am not a robot, but once I find the line needed the ball will crush the pins! My 4 favorite balls are: Deadly Aim 1 and 2, Hyper Cell, and my old virtual Gravity Nanno! You can make any ball look SUPER, if you set the robot up to the advantage of a particular ball, on a particular lane.

Not a great comparison at all! Doesn't prove much at all other then that shot with the balls!

All you need now is video proof.

The robot did his experiement and showed the results. The Encounter Project should be uploaded to YouTube by tonight.

[Aslan]

Well folks!!! The long awaited conclusion to this experiment is HERE!!

Have fun watching it!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRnLBy9UCp8

One thing I need to point out is, for the trained eye…you might be able to see a difference between my release early on in the video and the release you see at the end. For example, I see the following changes (or at least I think I see them):

Rev Rate has increased from roughly 182rpm to 258rpm.
Ball Speed has increased from 14.4mph to 14.7mph.
Axis Tilt and Axis Rotation have changed on the ball. It used to have a very high degree of axis rotation and very little axis tilt. (unless I'm getting those backwards)

[MICHAEL]

90 percent of your problem is simply
Focus
HIT YOUR FIRCKEN MARK,,,

FOCUS,,,, plain and simple, at one point you asked MIke what board you rolled over!

YOU SHOULD KNOW EACH TIME exactly what board,,, You looking up with your eyes!

Looks like your still squeezing the ball, several balls lofted, RELAX THAT FRICKEN THUMB!

Other then Focus, and relax the hand your set to go!! Go where??? PLATTSBURG Missouri

June 13th!
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/gBGKxFq_zpsfoepqazl.gif (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/gBGKxFq_zpsfoepqazl.gif.html)

Novel concept, FOCUS!!!! LOL,,,, your form looks GOOD, well OK! ..... GRRRRRRRR,,, FOCUS ON THAT MARK!!!
I am not sure YOU hit the same spot twice!!! @#$%$^#$@!!!!!!!

Relax your bowling hand, and KEEP THAT EYE ON YOUR TARGET,,, all your problems solved, and I am not a Fricken Coach, but I am GIFTED!!

[larry mc]

try a guru and a slingshot and tell me the ball makes no difference , end of story

[MICHAEL]

great vedio, LOL,,, I really enjoyed watching it! Had to watch it twice, does that tell you how bored ICE is on this cold light snowing day in Kansas City MO!
BUT, we will have to agree, to disagree on drilling!

I need to make a post of the Dealdly Aim that Rob gave me, and mine with the same surface preparation! His has that hocky stick left turn signal, down at the end of its journey, my Dealdy Aim has a beautiful arc to pocket? I like both movements, they are JUST DIFFERENT.

I put them o the spinner and prepared them exactly the same. I say drilling Does make a difference! But then what does Ice know,,,, I am just the old guy that beat you in Vegas!!! THINK THINGS MIGHT BE different in Plattsburg???? Where will your game be in 8 months???

I might get my camera out and video my two Deadly Aims!!!

Hey bud,,, FOUCS!!http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/sherlock-frustrated_zpsmj9gxpfd.gif (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/sherlock-frustrated_zpsmj9gxpfd.gif.html)

[Aslan]

try a guru and a slingshot and tell me the ball makes no difference , end of story

You must be commenting on the original thread title/topic and not the video because the video doesn't hypothesize that there is no difference from ball to ball…it explores whether there is a difference in two identical balls with different drilling layouts and different surfaces.

As to whether the Guru is stronger than the Slingshot…I think obviously it is. BUT….is it noticeably different at a rev rate of 182rpm?? I haven't ran that experiment yet. I think it would be a great experiment for the "robot" where it throws at a <250rpm rev rate to see what the difference is. And I am CONFIDENT that when you start getting into >250 rev rate….you're going to see some differences…some REAL differences.

But is different good? If I have to really "rev up" the ball or hit up on the ball to get a different reaction…is the different reaction worth the reduced accuracy? Will that high rev rate and stronger ball reactions interfere with your ability to play shorter or drier patterns? Hard to say.

All this experiment did was show that:
1) Changing the drill layout on two nearly identical balls…to the layouts shown…had virtually no affect on ball reaction at 182rpms.
2) Changing the surface on those balls, with a rev rate of 258rpms, saw a slightly different reaction…with the more surfaced ball seemingly reacting sooner to the lane (but not necessarily more).
3) At 182rpms, the difference from one ball to another ball IN TERMS OF HITTING THE POCKET is negligible.

As to the last point, more investigation would need to be done to look at HOW the balls hit the pocket and the path they take. My coach seems to see a difference from ball to ball in terms of when it starts to hook. I struggle to see that. In the video, MWhite seemed to see some differences that I couldn't really see.

[Mike White]

You must be commenting on the original thread title/topic and not the video because the video doesn't hypothesize that there is no difference from ball to ball…it explores whether there is a difference in two identical balls with different drilling layouts and different surfaces.

As to whether the Guru is stronger than the Slingshot…I think obviously it is. BUT….is it noticeably different at a rev rate of 182rpm?? I haven't ran that experiment yet. I think it would be a great experiment for the "robot" where it throws at a <250rpm rev rate to see what the difference is. And I am CONFIDENT that when you start getting into >250 rev rate….you're going to see some differences…some REAL differences.

But is different good? If I have to really "rev up" the ball or hit up on the ball to get a different reaction…is the different reaction worth the reduced accuracy? Will that high rev rate and stronger ball reactions interfere with your ability to play shorter or drier patterns? Hard to say.

All this experiment did was show that:
1) Changing the drill layout on two nearly identical balls…to the layouts shown…had virtually no affect on ball reaction at 182rpms.
2) Changing the surface on those balls, with a rev rate of 258rpms, saw a slightly different reaction…with the more surfaced ball seemingly reacting sooner to the lane (but not necessarily more).
3) At 182rpms, the difference from one ball to another ball IN TERMS OF HITTING THE POCKET is negligible.

As to the last point, more investigation would need to be done to look at HOW the balls hit the pocket and the path they take. My coach seems to see a difference from ball to ball in terms of when it starts to hook. I struggle to see that. In the video, MWhite seemed to see some differences that I couldn't really see.

I thought you edited this? Then why did we see an empty lane, and the machine resetting pins so often.

I can't count the number of times I fell asleep waiting for something of interest to happen.

BTW when you thought you were putting more revs on the ball, all you were doing was spinning the ball more.

When you spun the ball out into the dry area, friction burned off the axis tilt, and it made a somewhat decent roll towards the pocket.

Along with improving your bowling skills, you need to work on your observation skills.

[Aslan]

I thought you edited this? Then why did we see an empty lane, and the machine resetting pins so often.

I can't count the number of times I fell asleep waiting for something of interest to happen.
Believe me…had I not edited it and sped up parts…you'd have fell asleep more.


BTW when you thought you were putting more revs on the ball, all you were doing was spinning the ball more.

When you spun the ball out into the dry area, friction burned off the axis tilt, and it made a somewhat decent roll towards the pocket.
Revs = spin depending on how you think about it. It's the difference between axis rotation and axis tilt. The early shots seemed to be spinning completely right to left (axis rotation). The shots at the end seemed to be rotating more in the direction of travel (axis tilt).


Along with improving your bowling skills, you need to work on your observation skills.
The only observations I made was:
1) The two balls with the same surface behaved the same.
2) The two balls with different surfaces essentially behaved the same except the surfaced ball seemed to move sooner.

Are you saying those two things are not correct?

Now, where I definitely agree with you is that I need to work on my observation skills. I am still struggling at seeing when the ball first starts to change from skid to hook and then from hook to roll. I still struggle at reading how the ball goes through the pin deck. And I can't see when the ball "burns out".

Still lots of things to learn in this, Year TWO…of my bowling journey.

[MICHAEL]

As Iceman mentioned drilling DOES MAKE a Difference:http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads/17629-Lane-Side-Reviews-Radical-Guru

very interesting laneside review! this explains why my two Deadly Aims react so differently, with the same surface.

[Aslan]

As Iceman mentioned drilling DOES MAKE a Difference:http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads/17629-Lane-Side-Reviews-Radical-Guru

very interesting laneside review! this explains why my two Deadly Aims react so differently, with the same surface.

Yes Iceman…we are fully aware that in Radical's marketing video they somehow manage to show that the Guru is the best ball ever made. You should get one. I'm sure it'll be an automatic 800 series. There's also a very informative USBC video that shows the affects of surface changes on balls. Good stuff.

But…my video is an honest, non-marketing look at a REAL bowler (not a robot). It is clear and plain as day evidence to the contrary regarding drilling. AGAIN…you're more than welcome to make your own video of you and your Deadly Aims that show the massively different reaction you are seeing.

[MICHAEL]

Yes Iceman…we are fully aware that in Radical's marketing video they somehow manage to show that the Guru is the best ball ever made. You should get one. I'm sure it'll be an automatic 800 series. There's also a very informative USBC video that shows the affects of surface changes on balls. Good stuff.

But…my video is an honest, non-marketing look at a REAL bowler (not a robot). It is clear and plain as day evidence to the contrary regarding drilling. AGAIN…you're more than welcome to make your own video of you and your Deadly Aims that show the massively different reaction you are seeing.

To make a JUDGMENT based on your bowling skills is JUST WRONG! No conclusions can be drawn with your video! It did not demonstrate the fundamental use of the scientific method, in any WAY, SHAPE or FORM! It was just you missing your mark most of the time, and trying to make observations on what a ball will do! LOL,, Wow!!

My point is, and it valid, "HOW you drill a ball does make a difference, as does surface, for MOST OF US! Your special!! (:)

The video I posted was just back up to what I have found that: "Two like balls, will react differently if pin up or down, and their position does effect the balls movement.
Does surface changes make a difference too... daaaaaaaa,,,, YES.... lol,,, but drilling does make a difference also!!! Take it to the BANK!

I need to show you the huge difference in my two Deadly Aims, I will do that some time in the near future!

YES my friend, your video was an honest ATTEMPT!! Key word Attempt:p

]http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/martin_zpslhwjbo1d.gif (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/martin_zpslhwjbo1d.gif.html)

Sunday, Dear Diary today I watch Aslan's Scientific Method of proving bowling ball dynamics! It was an honest attempt, I am sure,,,, but?? ..... :rolleyes:

[Aslan]

1) The shots I used, for the most part were +/- 1 board…so the "not hitting my mark" argument is silly. I even slowed them down for the elderly folks like yourself so you can see the ball actually going over the EXACT board…and making a move at the EXACT spot. What else can I do??

2) Your understanding of the scientific method = your understanding of how to spell "lesson". I made a hypothesis, tested the null hypothesis, and the data showed what the data showed. YOU on the other hand…simply think that drilling makes a difference…and you "claim" to notice a difference…yet you have no proof of such a thing…just your "perceptions".

It's a closed topic at this point. The video has been made…no difference was noted at the given rev rate for the given drillings for the given bowling balls. Experiment concluded. Iceman's dreams or visions or imagination aside…the data IS what the data IS. And no…it wasn't comparing shots that varied monumentally…like I said…maybe 1 board. And I've seen Iceman bowl…his ability to hit the same EXACT board every time…lets just say "questionable".

http://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/you-mad.gif

[MICHAEL]

1) The shots I used, for the most part were +/- 1 board…so the "not hitting my mark" argument is silly. I even slowed them down for the elderly folks like yourself so you can see the ball actually going over the EXACT board…and making a move at the EXACT spot. What else can I do??

2) Your understanding of the scientific method = your understanding of how to spell "lesson". I made a hypothesis, tested the null hypothesis, and the data showed what the data showed. YOU on the other hand…simply think that drilling makes a difference…and you "claim" to notice a difference…yet you have no proof of such a thing…just your "perceptions".

It's a closed topic at this point. The video has been made…no difference was noted at the given rev rate for the given drillings for the given bowling balls. Experiment concluded. Iceman's dreams or visions or imagination aside…the data IS what the data IS. And no…it wasn't comparing shots that varied monumentally…like I said…maybe 1 board. And I've seen Iceman bowl…his ability to hit the same EXACT board every time…lets just say "questionable".

http://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/you-mad.gif

well lets see Hawk Eye!! I had a 741, several 200 plus games here lately posted the 741 picture a few weeks ago,, had a 693 on the seniors league last week,,, High series and game on a couple leagues... averages just over 200 now... be hitting my marks better then YOU my 40 year old friend LOL Almost a few 300 last week and the week before...

Iceman thinks, therefore its True! In your case you TRY, but???http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/aaarecap_zpsf11e2f04.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/aaarecap_zpsf11e2f04.jpg.html)
yes that 280 was almost another 300! (:)[

[MICHAEL]

If Iceman is missing his mark, how do you explain the recent scores Einstein!!http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/741oct2014_zps050004c2.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/741oct2014_zps050004c2.jpg.html)

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/aaa280_zps77e4c382.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/aaa280_zps77e4c382.jpg.html)

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/aaawarmupgame268_zps87267382.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/aaawarmupgame268_zps87267382.jpg.html)

All recent scores,,, what you saw in California, During the tournament was a Tired Old Man, who traveled 1500 miles on a motorcycle with his wife, and pulling a
trailer, kick you ASK,, by over 100 pins, and who had a 210 average when all games were averaged! NOT BAD, considering the miles I put in!!

Like I said, your test didn't prove anything other then how balls react to YOU, and your,,,,,,YOUR,,,,,,,, style, or lack of style bowing! I would think even Mike White would say scientifically your test proved nothing other then you need to get your game up, before you come out to Plattsburg... I will EAT YOU UP, and Down one Side and the OTHRER! I am bowling at a NEW level now my friend!

ITs was fun watching your video, and it must have been a lot of hard work! But Drilling does make a difference! (it just doesn't with you?) your an anomaly! YOUR Special!! :rolleyes:

[Aslan]

blah blah blah blah….Iceman is the greatest…blah blah….here's some of his high scores….

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070317022221/muppet/images/4/48/LookAtMeBook.jpg

And what does this have to do with an experiment that shows how drilling has a noticeable effect on ball reaction?? You guessed it. As much as THIS proves rabbits are sexy.

http://www.makeitvicki.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Playboy-Bunny.jpg

I'll wait for the video.

[Aslan]

I mean, think of it…

Aslan vs. Iceman Challenge:

Aslan: 5th
Iceman: 4th

Games Won:
Aslan: 0
Iceman: 0

Doubles Match Winner:
Aslan

Sooo…in actual competition…on the same lanes…mono a mono…Aslan has ONE victory and Iceman has NO victories!!! The 300-game, 240s-260s dominator!…EVEN when paired up with the young, strapping Mudpppy and his left-handed magic shot….STILL…ZERO victories!

But ya know what Ice…I won't count the doubles match. Why? Because I didn't want to do it to begin with. We'll call it EVEN. I have zero victories and Ice has zero victories. I wonder how I got the same number of victories missing all those boards?? Interesting.

Oh wait. He HAD to ride a motorcycle across country. Well, he didn't HAVE to. He just chose to. Probably to have a built in excuse in the event of a loss.

Don't worry Ice. Soon, the CHAMPION…TRUE CHAMPION…Rob M…the only person who actually WON A MATCH...will figure out a date/location for the Official Aslan vs. Iceman Challenge II and I'm sure next time…things will go differently.

In the meantime…will I fly to Plattsbury or Plunketville or Portsmouth Missouri to prove what is pretty much a given…that I am dominant on wood lanes and will obliterate the competition?? Maybe. Seems like a waste of time to prove what I already know. But we'll see. Gotta check my social calendar.

[Mike White]

Believe me…had I not edited it and sped up parts…you'd have fell asleep more.


Revs = spin depending on how you think about it. It's the difference between axis rotation and axis tilt. The early shots seemed to be spinning completely right to left (axis rotation). The shots at the end seemed to be rotating more in the direction of travel (axis tilt).


The only observations I made was:
1) The two balls with the same surface behaved the same.
2) The two balls with different surfaces essentially behaved the same except the surfaced ball seemed to move sooner.

Are you saying those two things are not correct?

Now, where I definitely agree with you is that I need to work on my observation skills. I am still struggling at seeing when the ball first starts to change from skid to hook and then from hook to roll. I still struggle at reading how the ball goes through the pin deck. And I can't see when the ball "burns out".

Still lots of things to learn in this, Year TWO…of my bowling journey.

Looking just at the 12:00 to 18:00 range, your ability to hit your target, for lack of a better word..... SUCKED.

On those few occasions where the ball hit approximately 9 board, your ball made a reasonable move towards the pocket.

At the end of that range 17:00 to 18:00 you are comparing the two balls playing an "inside" line.

With the aggressive ball, you hit about 18 board, and skidded all the way to the pins, getting lucky to kick the 10 out.

Then you tried again with the less aggressive ball, and hit about 15 board, the difference in angle allowed the ball to get outside the oil before the end of the pattern. The ball attempted to hook back due to the extra friction outside, but it "burned out". It managed to barely hit the head pin, leaving the 2-8-10 split.

Somehow you observed that and concluded that the less aggressive ball acted more aggressive since it made it back to the "pocket".

I think that was one place I rolled my eyes so far, I went into a coma.

[Mike White]

Yes Iceman…we are fully aware that in Radical's marketing video they somehow manage to show that the Guru is the best ball ever made. You should get one. I'm sure it'll be an automatic 800 series. There's also a very informative USBC video that shows the affects of surface changes on balls. Good stuff.

But…my video is an honest, non-marketing look at a REAL bowler (not a robot). It is clear and plain as day evidence to the contrary regarding drilling. AGAIN…you're more than welcome to make your own video of you and your Deadly Aims that show the massively different reaction you are seeing.

It is not evidence to the contrary regarding drilling.

If anything, it is evidence that you're going to need either an optometrist, or a psychiatrist before you will ever be able to read ball reaction.

[MICHAEL]

It's a closed topic at this point. The video has been made…no difference was noted at the given rev rate for the given drillings for the given bowling balls. Experiment concluded. Iceman's dreams or visions or imagination aside…the data IS what the data IS. And no…it wasn't comparing shots that varied monumentally…like I said…maybe 1 board. And I've seen Iceman bowl…his ability to hit the same EXACT board every time…lets just say "questionable".

(never start a sentence with And)... poor English! LOL

I must have some unheard of gift, if I miss my mark as you mention above! I have been on Fire Lately for several weeks,,, even had two, 200 plus games on the wood lanes in Plattsburg Thursday ! It's amazing how much better I bowl, after NOT RIDING MY BIKE !500 miles, and getting up the next day and bowing a tournament! ALL AT FRICKEN 66 years young!!!

I think you made a concerted effort to test your hypothesis on ball drilling! Bless your pee picking heart! But it means Nothing! LOL
The best part was Mike White in the background,,, saying,,, that was left,, that was right of mark! I did enjoy it, and you did put forth
much effort, (for nothing!) LOL

Anyway get your game togerther, and ride you bike out to bowl me on my home turf. Hey If I did it,,, why in the hell can't you!

Make sure you get a LOT OF coaching,,,, your going to need it! ICEMAN IS HOT,,,, my Gift is GROWING!

Quit dating PlayBOY, bunnies! YOUR BETTER THEN THAT!! I know you live close to San Francisco,,,, but Jeff is not good enough for YOU!!

All kidding aside, I have been on Fire the last 3 weeks at several different lanes! Not sure what's going on, but ICE likes the Fire!!

See you June 13th!! Bring you best weapons to do battle!!

P.S. Had a guy that is coaching Pat, give me a bunch of great advise while bowling in that recent tournament! Its paying off in spades, along with my gift.

I will post a video of my theory that like balls with same surfaces will move differently, depending on pin position. ( and balance hole)

[Aslan]

AGAIN!!

Looking at the slow motion videos at the END of the video (Mike must have fallen asleep before the end)….the difference in boards was NOT 5-9 boards…it was ONE board!!

I even wrote it DOWN for everyone. It's actually WRITTEN on the slide just before the video!!

First set of videos!! BOTH BALLS…up the 11-BOARD!! THE ELEVEN BOARD. BOTH BALLS…hit the SAME BOARD!!!

AND WHAT HAPPENED?!!

Hmm…well, I'm no psychologist or othamologist….BUT…it LOOKS like Ball #1 hit the pocket and struck and Ball #2 was "slightly" more aggressive and went just a "little" through the head and left the 4-9? So…okay…I'll agree with Mikey and Mikey…the more aggressive drilling…accounted for that little, tiny difference…where the ball moved just an inch or so left and went through the head. There. Now we're all in agreement. The drilling difference accounted for a slight change.

Now…through my non-optamologist approved eyes…it seems that the less aggressive ball actually went out to the 9 and came back into the pocket where as the more aggressive one only went out to the 10 and came back…thus the less aggressive one covered more boards…but ya know what…why split hairs??

Again…AGAIN…anyone…MWhite…Iceman…ANYONE that wants to conduct their own experiment…maybe at a different rev rate or a different line….feel free to buy two of the same balls, drill them up differently…knock yourselves out!! I'll be excited to watch it!!!

But mocking my delivery or ability to see things…in some vain attempt to prove the data wrong…when the results are clearly there…and slowed down for easy viewing… You want to refute the results…at LEAST refute the final clips…not the warm-up shots at 12:00min. Those are there merely for "context".

[Mike White]

[COLOR="#0000CD"]I must have some unheard of gift, if I miss my mark as you mention above!


Yes you have the "gift" but it comes from the lane man in the form of EASY LANES.

Remember a while back when I referred to Mudpuppy's shot making on his video as "spray can".

Even a "spray can" can shoot 250+ on an easy enough condition.

Try shooting that on a Sport Condition.

Speaking of which, what did I shoot this morning on a Dick Weber pattern? Oh yes, 266.

And I did it the first game before the pattern becomes easier due to use.

[Mike White]

AGAIN!!

Looking at the slow motion videos at the END of the video (Mike must have fallen asleep before the end)….the difference in boards was NOT 5-9 boards…it was ONE board!!


When the video moved to Concourse it appears you has sanded one of the balls.

At that point you aren't comparing one drill pattern vs another.

Different surfaces make a ton of differences.

I've got two Urethane Mix balls drilled different, and I get about 6-8 boards more hook with the ugly blue/orange ball.

It's the ball I was using in Vegas, and at Foothill (in VBT) where I shot 700.

I rarely get to use it on AMF synthetic lanes, but it's works better on Brunswick synthetic lanes.

[MICHAEL]

Yes you have the "gift" but it comes from the lane man in the form of EASY LANES.

Remember a while back when I referred to Mudpuppy's shot making on his video as "spray can".

Even a "spray can" can shoot 250+ on an easy enough condition.

Try shooting that on a Sport Condition.

Speaking of which, what did I shoot this morning on a Dick Weber pattern? Oh yes, 266.

And I did it the first game before the pattern becomes easier due to use.

YES MIKE,,, they don't make-em, like you anymore! Its soooooo easy now days, I sometimes wonder why you don't throw as many perfect games NOW as you did when you were 6 years old on the TOUGH OIL!

I for one am getting tired of hearing HOW tough, and HARD it was then! My uncle threw 300s, in the early 60s on wood, and he was a cripple, with bad eye sight!!
I don't want to hear how tough it was THEN ANYMORE!! We are all getting SICK,,,, literally SICK hearing it:rolleyes:http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/small-violin_zpssfk0u5wn.gif (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/small-violin_zpssfk0u5wn.gif.html)
The caption above is: While playing,( Give Me That Old Time Religion),,, Yes MIKE White, we know ,,,, We know,,,, its sooooooo easy now!! LOL
If its so EASY now how many 300 did you have this last year,,, I had Two within 6 months,, What's you USBC NUMBER,,, Bilff..... I want to take a look!! I am the bowlingboards.com house detective!!!

P.S. It's an INSULT to many on here including your half brother Aslan, and hundreds, maybe thousands on this site that have not bowled even ONE 300! EASY,,,, maybe a matter of opinion!

OOO SWEET JESUS, Give me them old time bowling lanes, it was good enough for MIKE!!! :p

[vdubtx]

Yes you have the "gift" but it comes from the lane man in the form of EASY LANES.

Remember a while back when I referred to Mudpuppy's shot making on his video as "spray can".

Even a "spray can" can shoot 250+ on an easy enough condition.

Try shooting that on a Sport Condition.

Speaking of which, what did I shoot this morning on a Dick Weber pattern? Oh yes, 266.

And I did it the first game before the pattern becomes easier due to use.

Congrats, but come back to brag when you don't post about 98 games on a house shot. ;)

[Mike White]

If its so EASY now how many 300 did you have this last year,,, I had Two within 6 months,, What's you USBC NUMBER,,, Bilff..... I want to take a look!! I am the bowlingboards.com house detective!!!

P.S. It's an INSULT to many on here including your half brother Aslan, and hundreds, maybe thousands on this site that have not bowled even ONE 300! EASY,,,, maybe a matter of opinion!


It's not just me, and it's not just since you started bowling.

Here is an article in the N.Y. Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2000/04/21/nyregion/perfection-made-easy-bowling-a-300-game-just-isn-t-the-feat-it-used-to-be.html) from 2000.

My USBC # is 1560-11073 (http://membership.bowl.com/USBCsearch/ViewMember.jsp?prefix=1560&suffix=11073)

Your USBC # is 8599-63324 (http://membership.bowl.com/USBCsearch/ViewMember.jsp?prefix=8599&suffix=63324)

[Aslan]

When the video moved to Concourse it appears you has sanded one of the balls.

At that point you aren't comparing one drill pattern vs another.

Different surfaces make a ton of differences.

Mike and Mike's awesomeness aside...

Yes boy wonder....the forst two SLOW MOTION videos...were done at Arlington (you were there). They are the exact same shots with the two balls, same surface, drilled differently.

The last two slow motion videos compare the effect of the surface change.

So don't get confused. First set compares drilling only. Last two compare surface.

Now, if you look at the two that compare ONLY drilling...you'll see two balls thrown up the 11-board. The less aggressively drilled ball tends to break at about the 9-board (hard to see when there's very little break) and makes a nice pocket hit for a strike. Now that ball is thrown with a slightly lower rev rate (155-185rpm) but at a slightly slower speed (just over 1mph slower).

The second ball, is ALSO thrown up the 11-board but seems to break at about the 10-board. Very close to the other ball. And it seems that both broke at about the same spot, about 45ft. The second ball was thrown at a higher rev rate (205-210rpm) but that difference is counter-acted by a slightly higher speed (about 1mph faster).

So, looking at the line, the break point, the nearly identical speeds...and only a slight difference in rev rate (that should have been easily counter-acted by the slight speed difference)...it's about as close a comparison as an amateur/below average bowler is going to be able to make.

And even watching the ball through the pins...again, amateur eye...but it seems like the less aggressive ball hit just right and exited between the 8 and 9 pins...a bit closer to the 8...almost perfect for a right hander. And the more aggressive ball exited the pin deck in nearly the same spot...but made that little 1 inch move at the end and went through the head a bit more. Personally, I felt I kinda got robbed on that shot because there's a LOT of pin action around the 4-pin and the 9-pin...but neither get touched. The 2-pin bounces out of the gutter and hits the 7-pin and bounces around back into the chennel. And the 10-pin bounces all around the 9-pin but doesn't hit it. Tough leave (4-9 split) when really it was just that last little bounce inside that kept the headpin from hitting the 2-pn properly...which also would have sent the ball more towards the 9-pin...probably knocking it over.

Now, maybe that last little bounce inside was evidence of the actual difference in drillings?? Maybe at 155-210rpms...THAT is about as much difference as you'll see. And maybe it's also a matter of the actualy drilling layouts. Some have commented that the layouts are much more similar than what they'd expect and more rdical differences would have shown more of a difference.

But remember...if you watched the entire, entertaining, possibly award winning video...there were THREE criteria MWhite had to adhere to:

1) DIFFERENT layouts
2) LEGAL (many players leave this one out because the USBC doesn't really care anymore)
3) They have to ultimately be USEABLE by the below average bowler.

In other words, I'm sure Mike could have drilled them all crazy and we coulda seen the weirdest reactions imaginable...but he'd have failed in #2 and #3 of the instructions. It would be interesting to take the 5 bowlers from the AVI Challenge and actually have their arsenals measured to see if they are in fact LEGAL. Other than Mike, I've NEVER had a ball driller actually WEIGH a ball after drilling. Other than Mike...I've never had a driller use one of those circular rulers to make sure a ball is large/small enough.

When was the last time a bowler had a ball disqualified? When was the last time anyone even checked a ball? I bet...if I put up $100 even money...I could go to any house on their busiest league night and have everyone's bowling balls weighed/measured and I'd find at least ONE...that fails in some way. And I'd guess it'd be a thumbless bowler...big weight hole drilled in a really strong, assymetric core ball....trying to get the biggest hook possible...no care whatsoever whether it's legal or not. As long as it has a USBC number...then the 300 will count.

[Mike White]

Mike and Mike's awesomeness aside...

Yes boy wonder....the forst two SLOW MOTION videos...were done at Arlington (you were there). They are the exact same shots with the two balls, same surface, drilled differently.

The last two slow motion videos compare the effect of the surface change.

So don't get confused. First set compares drilling only. Last two compare surface.

Now, if you look at the two that compare ONLY drilling...you'll see two balls thrown up the 11-board. The less aggressively drilled ball tends to break at about the 9-board (hard to see when there's very little break) and makes a nice pocket hit for a strike. Now that ball is thrown with a slightly lower rev rate (155-185rpm) but at a slightly slower speed (just over 1mph slower).

The second ball, is ALSO thrown up the 11-board but seems to break at about the 10-board. Very close to the other ball. And it seems that both broke at about the same spot, about 45ft. The second ball was thrown at a higher rev rate (205-210rpm) but that difference is counter-acted by a slightly higher speed (about 1mph faster).

So, looking at the line, the break point, the nearly identical speeds...and only a slight difference in rev rate (that should have been easily counter-acted by the slight speed difference)...it's about as close a comparison as an amateur/below average bowler is going to be able to make.

And even watching the ball through the pins...again, amateur eye...but it seems like the less aggressive ball hit just right and exited between the 8 and 9 pins...a bit closer to the 8...almost perfect for a right hander. And the more aggressive ball exited the pin deck in nearly the same spot...but made that little 1 inch move at the end and went through the head a bit more. Personally, I felt I kinda got robbed on that shot because there's a LOT of pin action around the 4-pin and the 9-pin...but neither get touched. The 2-pin bounces out of the gutter and hits the 7-pin and bounces around back into the chennel. And the 10-pin bounces all around the 9-pin but doesn't hit it. Tough leave (4-9 split) when really it was just that last little bounce inside that kept the headpin from hitting the 2-pn properly...which also would have sent the ball more towards the 9-pin...probably knocking it over.

Now, maybe that last little bounce inside was evidence of the actual difference in drillings?? Maybe at 155-210rpms...THAT is about as much difference as you'll see. And maybe it's also a matter of the actualy drilling layouts. Some have commented that the layouts are much more similar than what they'd expect and more rdical differences would have shown more of a difference.

But remember...if you watched the entire, entertaining, possibly award winning video...there were THREE criteria MWhite had to adhere to:

1) DIFFERENT layouts
2) LEGAL (many players leave this one out because the USBC doesn't really care anymore)
3) They have to ultimately be USEABLE by the below average bowler.

In other words, I'm sure Mike could have drilled them all crazy and we coulda seen the weirdest reactions imaginable...but he'd have failed in #2 and #3 of the instructions. It would be interesting to take the 5 bowlers from the AVI Challenge and actually have their arsenals measured to see if they are in fact LEGAL. Other than Mike, I've NEVER had a ball driller actually WEIGH a ball after drilling. Other than Mike...I've never had a driller use one of those circular rulers to make sure a ball is large/small enough.

When was the last time a bowler had a ball disqualified? When was the last time anyone even checked a ball? I bet...if I put up $100 even money...I could go to any house on their busiest league night and have everyone's bowling balls weighed/measured and I'd find at least ONE...that fails in some way. And I'd guess it'd be a thumbless bowler...big weight hole drilled in a really strong, assymetric core ball....trying to get the biggest hook possible...no care whatsoever whether it's legal or not. As long as it has a USBC number...then the 300 will count.


Give me some time indictors so I don't have to sleep through another 30 minutes of watching pin setters do what I see them do all day long.

As for a ball needing a "USBC number", it doesn't have to be the # originally on the ball. If for whatever reason, you remove the #, you are only required to engrave a new number. That number could be as simple as 1.

The form to receive recognition for shooting an honor score asks if your ball has a serial # on it. It doesn't ask what that serial number is.

Since the USBC changed the rules (August 2014) as it applies to thumbless bowlers, I'd say you will probably find a good percent of balls used by thumbless bowling to be illegal.

If there was a thumb hole drilled in the ball, and also a balance hole. By not using the thumb hole, the thumb hole is considered another balance hole, and you're only allowed one balance hole.

[Aslan]

Just proves how easy it would be for me to make $100/night. And not even have to take my clothes off.

Actually the clothes off things would probably earn me maybe $2/night and I'm sure get me arrrested...not really a good business model.

Very SIMPLE...FAST FORWARD TO THE END of the video. Now, the LAST FOUR shots...(hint: the only 4 on the video in slow motion...and the ones with the title slides in between them)...Shot #1 and #2 were in Arlington...at abut the 34 minute mark....then just after that are the Concurse shots. The ones done at Arlington are the comparison shots.

This is all spelled out clearly in the title slides between shots by the way.

[Mike White]

Congrats, but come back to brag when you don't post about 98 games on a house shot. ;)

Well considering I've never posted about 98 games on a house shot, I guess I'm back.

I guess I could have just quit after two frames in the 3rd game, then used my practice game and the 1st two that were official.

[Mike White]

Mike and Mike's awesomeness aside...

Yes boy wonder....the forst two SLOW MOTION videos...were done at Arlington (you were there). They are the exact same shots with the two balls, same surface, drilled differently.

The last two slow motion videos compare the effect of the surface change.

So don't get confused. First set compares drilling only. Last two compare surface.

Now, if you look at the two that compare ONLY drilling...you'll see two balls thrown up the 11-board. The less aggressively drilled ball tends to break at about the 9-board (hard to see when there's very little break) and makes a nice pocket hit for a strike. Now that ball is thrown with a slightly lower rev rate (155-185rpm) but at a slightly slower speed (just over 1mph slower).



11 board is in the oil, and the oil's job is to keep the ball from hooking.

So yes, the oil kept both of your balls from hooking about equal.

At 13:45, and 14:15 you had both balls leave the oil at about 15 feet.

The more aggressive ball left you a big 4, while the less aggressive ball left you a 7 pin.

[vdubtx]

Well considering I've never posted about 98 games on a house shot, I guess I'm back.

I guess I could have just quit after two frames in the 3rd game, then used my practice game and the 1st two that were official.

Sorry, gave you benefit of a pin, it was a 97 you bowled. :p

[Mike White]

Just proves how easy it would be for me to make $100/night.

Not quite as easy as you think.

First you have to find someone willing to take the opposite side of the bet.

Then you have to collect.

[Aslan]

11 board is in the oil, and the oil's job is to keep the ball from hooking.

So yes, the oil kept both of your balls from hooking about equal.

At 13:45, and 14:15 you had both balls leave the oil at about 15 feet.

The more aggressive ball left you a big 4, while the less aggressive ball left you a 7 pin.

I don't know man. If you watch that 13:45 video...I'm lofting the heck out of the ball. It looks like it stayed around 9 and just had more rotational tilt so when it grabbed it abruptly moved. On that 14:15 shot...that ball missed outside and did come back...but looking at that ball motion at the end, doesn't it look like it was burned out when it went into the pin deck/pocket (and thus the weak hit and 7-pin leave?

I mean, I had a few different shots to choose from for each ball (after throwing probably 10 with each ball)...but I tried not to use the weird ones. I wanted the shots to be the best and most natural and easiest to compare. Not one where I loft it 12 feet and another where I miss 3 boards right.

As to finding the dry...at my rev rate...that just doesn't exist for me. I can't angle the ball toward the 10 or even 6 and expect it to hit some magical break point and come back. It won't. I can move outside in the dry...either try to play right up the hold area...or play closer to first arrow and play the old school 80s/90s shot up and in...but I can't throw the ball over 15, have it hit the 9-board at 38ft, and expect it to come slamming back. You even commented on that in the video at 08:48 when I tried to throw it over the 17-board and it made it to the breakpoint and then didn't have enough to make it back...that I should try more up the 9-board.

Oh well. Work in progress.

[dnhoffman]

The ball does not matter on a fresh[ish] house shot, up to scores around 200. After that, it definitely matters.


If you're good enough to match your equipment and release to the lane.


This is absolutely not true on sport conditions.

The end.

[MICHAEL]

Yes you have the "gift" but it comes from the lane man in the form of EASY LANES.

Remember a while back when I referred to Mudpuppy's shot making on his video as "spray can".

Even a "spray can" can shoot 250+ on an easy enough condition.

Try shooting that on a Sport Condition.

Speaking of which, what did I shoot this morning on a Dick Weber pattern? Oh yes, 266.

And I did it the first game before the pattern becomes easier due to use.

Funny the lane man must not LIKE YOU ASLAN,,, he must put down a REAL Tough Crappy line of oil JUST FOR YOU!!! :rolleyes:
Its not the OIL,,,, or Mike White and Aslan would be on even ground?? I know,,, I know Aslan did beat Mike a few times, but that's beside the point!

The day I did my Last 300, 3 other 220 plus bowlers on that team bowled crappy.... One a 225 average , wound up with a 199.... so oil is NOT the answer to why many of us can and do roll a 300 or even great scores,,,, its bowling skills, I am convinced.

When Aslan beat Mike White scratch that day on wood,,,, it was Pure skill!

Mike had the same oil, and he knows more then ,,,, THEN EVEN GOD, about bowling, but he got beat, on the very oil that is soooooo easy!
If you don't like that example, what about the easy oil and great lane conditions that Las Vegas Rob beat you on??? Same easy oil your always talking about! WHAT HAPPENED??? Is it really THAT MUCH easier, or are we just Evolving Into Bowling Beast Now DAYS!!!

In a nut shell the OIL is not that easy, many come up to me that have been bowing for over 20 years saying: ICEMAN how,,, HOW DID YOU THROW them two 300 within 6 months.

My reply is always, In spite of the tough oil that day, that everyone else was struggling with,,, My Gift won out!

[Perrin]

Funny the lane man must not LIKE YOU ASLAN,,, he must put down a REAL Tough Crappy line of oil JUST FOR YOU!!! :rolleyes:
Its not the OIL,,,, or Mike White and Aslan would be on even ground?? I know,,, I know Aslan did beat Mike a few times, but that's beside the point!

The day I did my Last 300, 3 other 220 plus bowlers on that team bowled crappy.... One a 225 average , wound up with a 199.... so oil is NOT the answer to why many of us can and do roll a 300 or even great scores,,,, its bowling skills, I am convinced.

When Aslan beat Mike White scratch that day on wood,,,, it was Pure skill!

Mike had the same oil, and he knows more then ,,,, THEN EVEN GOD, about bowling, but he got beat, on the very oil that is soooooo easy!
If you don't like that example, what about the easy oil and great lane conditions that Las Vegas Rob beat you on??? Same easy oil your always talking about! WHAT HAPPENED??? Is it really THAT MUCH easier, or are we just Evolving Into Bowling Beast Now DAYS!!!

In a nut shell the OIL is not that easy, many come up to me that have been bowing for over 20 years saying: ICEMAN how,,, HOW DID YOU THROW them two 300 within 6 months.

My reply is always, In spite of the tough oil that day, that everyone else was struggling with,,, My Gift won out!


or you got lucky and on those days the oil, lanes, house conditions all happened to match with the ball and the way you were throwing.

Does it help to have skill and be accurate and have a repeatable shot? Heck yes.
Is that all there is to bowling a 300? Heck no or guys like Norm Duke and Walter Ray Williams would have hundreds if not thousands of 300s thrown in competition.

Just picking 2 names I have read about having measured CATS data that showed them accurate to within 1/2" and within 1/10 mph over a series of 15 shots.

[MICHAEL]

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/0/0b/The_Truth_about_Drilled_Balls.pdf

A very good read! How you drill the ball does matter, along with the surface! Two balls drilled differently with same surface will show huge differences! I have two pin up balls, same make and model, Deadly Aims,,

one pin up center, the other kicked out even with ring finger.

pin center same fresh factory surface does a sweet gradual arc to the pocket!

Pin even with ring finger, kicked out, a long arc but hokey stick move to the pocket

Good article link above.

[Aslan]

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/0/0b/The_Truth_about_Drilled_Balls.pdf

Is there going to be a video? Or are we just going to take Mo's word for it?

Oh...thats what I thought.

LETS GO USBC!! Fire up E.A.R.L.!!

Does the USBC take requests? Could I go there and just borrow E.A.r.L??

[Mike White]

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/0/0b/The_Truth_about_Drilled_Balls.pdf

A very good read! How you drill the ball does matter, along with the surface! Two balls drilled differently with same surface will show huge differences! I have two pin up balls, same make and model, Deadly Aims,,

one pin up center, the other kicked out even with ring finger.

pin center same fresh factory surface does a sweet gradual arc to the pocket!

Pin even with ring finger, kicked out, a long arc but hokey stick move to the pocket

Good article link above.

Do you read what you yourself type?

"A long arc, but hokey(sp) stick move to the pocket."

That is a contradiction right in itself.

Hockey stick move, means skid straight, then a quick change in direction, then roll to the pocket.

A long arc means less skid, and gradual change in direction.

[fortheloveofbowling]

It is hard to get a ball to hook twice.:rolleyes:

[MICHAEL]

Do you read what you yourself type?

"A long arc, but hokey(sp) stick move to the pocket."

That is a contradiction right in itself.

Hockey stick move, means skid straight, then a quick change in direction, then roll to the pocket.

A long arc means less skid, and gradual change in direction.


ITs a matter of semantics Mike!! I will make it simple and produce a video of the difference in movement due to drilling with both balls given the same surface.

NO I rarely proof read, but I am glad you do! Keep me on my toes Mike!

[MICHAEL]

It is hard to get a ball to hook twice.:rolleyes:

REMEMBER,, Iceman is now a Bowling God,,, NOTHING A BOWLING GOD CAN'T do!!! Still haven't got that walking on water thing down yet, but I am working on it!! :rolleyes:

I will make a video of that too!!

[fortheloveofbowling]

REMEMBER,, Iceman is now a Bowling God,,, NOTHING A BOWLING GOD CAN'T do!!! Still haven't got that walking on water thing down yet, but I am working on it!! :rolleyes:

I will make a video of that too!!

Sorry, i forgot. You are right about the surfaces though, i would like to see the video and the difference in drilling between the 2 balls. That would help some of our fellow members.

[J Anderson]

It is hard to get a ball to hook twice.:rolleyes:

Unless you were Andy Varipapa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF1_qeTyDXI

[Aslan]

Sorry, i forgot. You are right about the surfaces though, i would like to see the video and the difference in drilling between the 2 balls. That would help some of our fellow members.

You mean; in addition to the one I already made of course...

[MICHAEL]

Unless you were Andy Varipapa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF1_qeTyDXI

that was great!! Icegod enjoyed!!! Notice all the great trick shot guys are like older!! LIKE ICEMAN!! I mean Icegod!!! lol

[rv driver]

REMEMBER,, Iceman is now a Bowling God,,, NOTHING A BOWLING GOD CAN'T do!!! Still haven't got that walking on water thing down yet, but I am working on it!! :rolleyes:

I will make a video of that too!!
Just be sure to not were your bowling shoes while doing it. They won't slide afterward.

[fortheloveofbowling]

that was great!! Icegod enjoyed!!! Notice all the great trick shot guys are like older!! LIKE ICEMAN!! I mean Icegod!!! lol

Varipapa was a great competitive bowler as well. Many think his wins in back to back all stars in 1947-1948 at the ages of 56 & 57 are among the greatest achievements in sports history. The all star was the predecessor to the us open and had a 100+ game format.