great read

[Shaneshu87]

http://www.epicbowling.com/bowling-discussion/are-amateur-bowlers-really-amateurs/

check this article out written by a high-school bowler, it hits on all the hot topics that we have all be discussing (minus religion lol). this kid really hit the nail on the head (like that Hammer reference) as to another aspect of the decline of bowling, its great, its straight to the point, and it should only take you 3 minutes to read it.

[Amyers]

Nice read Shane I'm not sure the terminology of what we call people is really a major problem in the sport but the author is correct that we need to work harder to get the open bowler in leagues the better league bowlers in scratch and sport leagues and remove the amateur label off the guys who make their living off the larger tourneys.

[Aslan]

So I assume this kid would support my proposition that bowlers are put in leagues based on average?

- First year; < 130; no-tap.
- 130 to 174; handicap house league.
- 175 or more; scratch league.
- >190; scratch/sport league.

If your average drops, you move back down. This solves the problems. No more whining about handicap bowlers winning because of "all their handicap" because all the better bowlers are bowling scratch leagues. And in order to "sandbag" to get moved down…a person would have to sandbag an entire season…unlikely.

As to the tournament stuff…thats a tough one. I mean, on the one hand…I would prefer the ball manufacturers put the money into maybe increasing the PBA event payouts. On the other hand, I think it is a good idea to encourage handicap tournaments…which is what a lot of these tournaments are.

I'd actually like to see the USBC run more handicap tournaments…let the ball manufacturers kick in their money up to the PBA events and a little down to the USBC to encourage the handicap tournaments.

[rv driver]

Yeah, not sure the nomenclature is the problem. The problem is sorting out how the companies and sponsors give their monetary support. The article did touch on another problem, although he didn't come right out and name it. The problem is elitism. I've noticed that, besides the obvious PBA demarcation, there's also another "inner circle" to which only those of high sanctioned average and participation in league/tournament play are admitted. Those who either don't enjoy league play, or have time for it, or who don't want to participate in tournaments, are not admitted. I don't know how it is in other centers, but my center displays such an inner circle of privilege. Doesn't seem to matter if one is a very, very good bowler of even stupendous average (say, over 210). If one doesn't participate in the organized sport, one is basically shunned by other sport bowlers and relegated to the chum slick of "recreational bowlers" at the bottom of the bowling food chain.

My problem is, I don't have a lot of time at this point in my professional life, to commit to a weekly league for a number of weeks. I bowl when I can. And I don't like being treated like a bottom feeder, just because I only bowl "recreationally." I'm sure there are others who feel the same: Love the game, bowl relatively well, but aren't in a league, yet still want to be treated "like a bowler." It doesn't create an atmosphere of welcome or goodwill that fosters greater participation in the sport.

[Aslan]

Y The problem is elitism. I've noticed that, besides the obvious PBA demarcation, there's also another "inner circle" to which only those of high sanctioned average and participation in league/tournament play are admitted. Those who either don't enjoy league play, or have time for it, or who don't want to participate in tournaments, are not admitted. I don't know how it is in other centers, but my center displays such an inner circle of privilege....My problem is, I don't have a lot of time at this point in my professional life, to commit to a weekly league for a number of weeks. I bowl when I can. And I don't like being treated like a bottom feeder, just because I only bowl "recreationally." I'm sure there are others who feel the same: Love the game, bowl relatively well, but aren't in a league, yet still want to be treated "like a bowler." It doesn't create an atmosphere of welcome or goodwill that fosters greater participation in the sport.

I have that bias.

Quite simply, my bias comes from the fact that casual bowlers and no-tap bowlers and non-sanctioned bowlers all want the "accolades" of being "awesome"...but they refuse (for whatever reason) to prove that awesomeness on a level playing field.

It's like any other sport...if you want the recognition, you have to step up and play in an organized setting with consistent rules. If you don't care about that respect, then do whatever.

And I don't buy the arguement about commitment or funds or anything like that because I've heard excuse after excuse after excuse...from ALL walks of life...as to why a person bowls non-sanctioned or doesn't join a league or won't play on a sport pattern or won't enter a tournament. I'm not saying some of these excuses aren't valid...I don''t have the funds to bowl in 2 sweeper leagues even though I'd love to...but when you hear enough excuses...you start to lump them all together.

If you're not bowling in a league, you're bowling casually, for fun, on non-sanctioned conditions...with/without sanctioned equipment...according to your own rules. No respect.
If you are bowling in a non-sanctioned league...you are bowling according to whatever rules the people want and are willing to follow.
If you are bowling no-tap...thats not really bowling...it's like "lawn bowling" or some other bowling "related" activity.
If you are a house bowler with a > 190 average and refuse to bowl in a scratch or sport league and/or refuse to test your merit at a sanctioned tournament...you're afraid and your ego can't risk the hit.

If you disagree...thats fine...but realize...if it's not a sancitoned league on sanctioned conditions with sanctioned equipment in a league/tournament environment...it's not a 1 to 1 comparison with what true "sport" bowlers are doing. Your 210 average may not = a 210 average in sanctioned conditions. Just like all the "gifted" house bowlers with 220 averages that claim to be semi-pros....thats on a house shot...that does not = PBA level conditions. So guess what? You don't get PBA level respect.

You want the respect, go out and get it. Unless you're dirt poor or a surgeon...money and/or time is just a convenient excuse.

All that is "in my opinion"...which I imagine is the dissenting one.

[Shaneshu87]

I have that bias.

Quite simply, my bias comes from the fact that casual bowlers and no-tap bowlers and non-sanctioned bowlers all want the "accolades" of being "awesome"...but they refuse (for whatever reason) to prove that awesomeness on a level playing field.

It's like any other sport...if you want the recognition, you have to step up and play in an organized setting with consistent rules. If you don't care about that respect, then do whatever.

And I don't buy the arguement about commitment or funds or anything like that because I've heard excuse after excuse after excuse...from ALL walks of life...as to why a person bowls non-sanctioned or doesn't join a league or won't play on a sport pattern or won't enter a tournament. I'm not saying some of these excuses aren't valid...I don''t have the funds to bowl in 2 sweeper leagues even though I'd love to...but when you hear enough excuses...you start to lump them all together.

If you're not bowling in a league, you're bowling casually, for fun, on non-sanctioned conditions...with/without sanctioned equipment...according to your own rules. No respect.
If you are bowling in a non-sanctioned league...you are bowling according to whatever rules the people want and are willing to follow.
If you are bowling no-tap...thats not really bowling...it's like "lawn bowling" or some other bowling "related" activity.
If you are a house bowler with a > 190 average and refuse to bowl in a scratch or sport league and/or refuse to test your merit at a sanctioned tournament...you're afraid and your ego can't risk the hit.

If you disagree...thats fine...but realize...if it's not a sancitoned league on sanctioned conditions with sanctioned equipment in a league/tournament environment...it's not a 1 to 1 comparison with what true "sport" bowlers are doing. Your 210 average may not = a 210 average in sanctioned conditions. Just like all the "gifted" house bowlers with 220 averages that claim to be semi-pros....thats on a house shot...that does not = PBA level conditions. So guess what? You don't get PBA level respect.

You want the respect, go out and get it. Unless you're dirt poor or a surgeon...money and/or time is just a convenient excuse.

All that is "in my opinion"...which I imagine is the dissenting one.

nailed it

[Amyers]

Yeah, not sure the nomenclature is the problem. The problem is sorting out how the companies and sponsors give their monetary support. The article did touch on another problem, although he didn't come right out and name it. The problem is elitism. I've noticed that, besides the obvious PBA demarcation, there's also another "inner circle" to which only those of high sanctioned average and participation in league/tournament play are admitted. Those who either don't enjoy league play, or have time for it, or who don't want to participate in tournaments, are not admitted. I don't know how it is in other centers, but my center displays such an inner circle of privilege. Doesn't seem to matter if one is a very, very good bowler of even stupendous average (say, over 210). If one doesn't participate in the organized sport, one is basically shunned by other sport bowlers and relegated to the chum slick of "recreational bowlers" at the bottom of the bowling food chain.

My problem is, I don't have a lot of time at this point in my professional life, to commit to a weekly league for a number of weeks. I bowl when I can. And I don't like being treated like a bottom feeder, just because I only bowl "recreationally." I'm sure there are others who feel the same: Love the game, bowl relatively well, but aren't in a league, yet still want to be treated "like a bowler." It doesn't create an atmosphere of welcome or goodwill that fosters greater participation in the sport.

If your point is that because someone walks in and shoot a 210 on open bowling conditions once in a while and wants to be treated like he is equal to the top bowlers in the alley. No I don't agree with that. Those guys compete week in week out in leagues and tournaments deserve a higher spot in the pecking order than the recreational guy that shows up when he feels like and bowls. I'm not saying it is okay to make fun, poke holes in his game, or disrespect him but is he ever going to be on the same level as a consistent league/tourney bowler no.

[fortheloveofbowling]

RV's point about elitism is a great point and 1 that i think is a great unsaid reason for league and tournament decline. He is right about the elite bowlers, they are a huge click sometimes and not real encouraging to newer lesser bowlers. Bias? I will tell you about bias and elite bowlers and some elite competitions: You show up at some events and bowl bad and you would think you have fallen down and your a** is hanging out! In regards to open bowlers, 9 pin no tap, unsanctioned leagues, or whatever you have to remember those people are helping keep the bowling center open. I respect anyone that wants to go out and throw a bowling ball, if they don't want to bowl more seriously that is fine because they don't want that ridicule.

[Aslan]

you have to remember those people are helping keep the bowling center open.

I would tend to agree...but realize a case "can" be made that many of the things we currently see in bowling that are "keeping centers open" are actually killing the sport.

Non-sanctioned leagues are a good example. They syphon money from the USBC, and make a center "appear" to have a lot of dedicated league bowlers when in fact that isn't the case. And one could make the point that the proliferation of cosmic bowling and night club/alleys and easier conditions, and more 300s, and stronger equipment have all hurt the game FAR more than they've helped it.

I don't "ridicule" anybody. I want to sometimes...like the teenager yesterday that was walking down the lane and rolling around on it...or the girl next to me that kept throwing the ball backwards between her legs....because they are idiots...but I didn't.

Just ask yourself...next time you see those idiots having fun and "keeping the doors open"...are THEY the future of bowling??

A good comparison for rvdriver is this:
Sometimes you talk to someone that plays a lot of "Call of Duty" or other strategy/first person shooter games and they brag about how good they are. Imagine one of those guys, sitting at a VFW post, bragging that he'd make a really great soldier because in Call of Duty he has one of the better Kill/Death ratios.

It would not only get you a smirk or a dirty look or a chuckle...it'd be borderline disrespectful. Because there is NO comparison between a video game and the real thing. Having played paintball in big war games...and played a lot of "Black Ops" (video game)....there is NO comparison to the feeling you get when you're pinned down and projectiles are whizzing by your head, hitting brush and trees and the soil at your feet...smoke, sweat, blood...humidity...people yelling...and all I did was PAINTBALL. Those weren't BULLETS....or mortar shells. If I got hit, yeah, it hurt like ****! Sometimes it'd even break the skin...but I didn't DIE!...or lose a limb!!

I know thats an extreme example compared to sanctioned vs. casual bowling...but I think it best illustrates that respect is earned when you step up and beat those league bowlers. Until then, they own you nothing except common courtesy.

[Amyers]

Common courtesy should always be displayed and during open bowling I don't even really mind when they jump up in front of me as I'm releasing the ball it's just good practice for keeping your concentration when someone does something stupid during leagues. I guess I'm not sure exactly what RV is talking about here. If it's elite bowlers being rude that's not right but also you shouldn't be expected to be admitted to the club until you've earned your stripes in real competition.

[fortheloveofbowling]

If a kid was doing that i would tell them point blank not to. If i am open bowling and i see someone next to me and they are not very good i can guarantee you when i see them label one i always walk over and hold up my hand and say good shot. If i see a family bowling and a kid throws a ball down the lane and hits some pins i will tell them good shot. I take any opportunity to encourage bowling and bowlers. I always talk to people about joining leagues or about trying a tournament. Quite honestly, i could care less if some one respects me or not because i'm a league bowler. My goal as a bowler is to get people to continue to participate. Maybe that family that goes bowling once a week or some guy and his brother you know that open bowls twice a week will join a league sometime because you encouraged them instead of looking at them like a detriment to the sport. Those 2 examples are 6 people that i encouraged and joined leagues last season and continued in the summer and will this fall as well.

[rv driver]

What I'm saying is this: The "real bowlers" -- that is, the ones who are really good and really dedicated and work to improve their games, are usually very courteous and quick to offer help and guidance. With those guys, your sorta in the club, because they know you're doing your best to respect the game. It's the hacks who've joined a league and cary a decent average, but who are resting on their laurels, not improving, who look down their noses at non-league players like they're some kind of disease. Aslan, ya know I love ya, but I simply can't agree with this "league up or die, a-hole!" attitude. Leagues are not the be-all-end-all of bowling. The least the regular league guys can do is encourage rather than shun those who aren't bowling league. That faux superiority, elitist-snob attitude is a real turn-off. Granted, that attitude, at least in my experience, seems to mostly be coming from younger players.

I've bowled league and I've sat out. I haven't noticed a difference in my performance between bowling league and not bowling league. The lanes are oiled the same whether you bowl league or not. I dunno. It just seems to smack of the whole sophomoric frat-boy-elitist crap: "If you're not Greek, you're weak." "If you don't bowl league, you're not a real bowler." Same kind of faux superiority, IMO. that attitude simply does not endear people to the sport.

[rv driver]

If your point is that because someone walks in and shoot a 210 on open bowling conditions once in a while and wants to be treated like he is equal to the top bowlers in the alley. No I don't agree with that.
Why not? Why can't a good bowler with a 220 average who doesn't bowl league be treated as an equal to those who throw a 180 league average? This smacks of playground bullyism.

Those guys compete week in week out in leagues and tournaments deserve a higher spot in the pecking order than the recreational guy that shows up when he feels like and bowls.
Why? Why do they deserve that? Why is there a "pecking order," to begin with?

[Amyers]

I can agree with that RV I don't really have it in my house but some other places I have bowled and some other forums I've been on the people have the attitude that if you don't average 230 your not worth the breath to speak too.

I try to friendly and courteous to everyone and realize even though I'm their practicing to compete they are just there to have fun.

I will say though if you come up to me and tell me in open bowling you've shot 200+ over the last few weeks I'll give you the high five and think to myself then bring it to league and prove it. It's just not the same up there by yourself as it is in a competitive environment.

Not saying that to run ya down I just really feel it is different. You can also only do what life and time restraints allow.

[Aslan]

rv...that question can be asked and answered in every sport imagineable.

- Why do Nascar guys get all the money and fame...I can drive a car really well.
- Why do professional baseball players look down on softball players...I hit a HR every night in my Thursday softball league.
- Why is the tour de france so special, I can ride a bike.
- How come my college intramural flag football team that is undefeated doesn't make it in the college paper sports section...yet they write about the Division II college team with the losing record?

See rv...those that bowl open bowling, and want "league bowler recognition" are like guys that lower the basketball hoops in their driveways to 9ft and then spend all afternoon dunking the ball and claiming they could probably play college B-Ball IF....they weren't too busy....

Bowling is a GREAT sport...because the only thing stopping you from going to league night and showing how good you really are....is YOU! No farm systems...the annual membership is only like $20-$25...all you gotta do is DO IT. And then, respect earned. But no, I'm not gonna go to cosmic bowling and watch some kid throw a 6lb ball like a jackhole and marvel at his greatness when he lucks into a 180 game. I just bowled a team of 3 (of 5) jackwads that threw thumbless and thought they were God's gift....last week in league play....one of them threw 2 straight balls into the gutter. Lets just say...they weren't very happy when our team of 3 beginners and a couple average bowlers took 3 of 4 points from "God's Gift to bowling".

I've already heard all the excuses. I used to play hockey with a kid that thought he was the most talented skater since Wayne Gretzky...but the kid never even played semi-organized hockey. He always had an excuse....money, a car, not interested, can't make it the nights they play, might be starting a new job, etc...blah blah blah. Yet he had time to hang around street corners and waste money on tons of other stuff...and never had a "job" and always had a ride. Some people just never take that step. And thats fine with me. To each their own. But you can't get the accolades if you never put on the uniform.

[Amyers]

Why not? Why can't a good bowler with a 220 average who doesn't bowl league be treated as an equal to those who throw a 180 league average? This smacks of playground bullyism.

Why? Why do they deserve that? Why is there a "pecking order," to begin with?

I'm not talking about actually running you down or treating you poorly I am talking mostly about respect in a envious way. I have more respect or more envious of a guy that bowls tournaments and has won than just a league bowler. Ive never won an individual tournament. Same with someone who averages 210 on sport conditions that's way more impressive than averaging 210 on THS.

I was talking last fall to one of the older kids on my daughters youth league kid has serious talent and I as talking to him about his release because it's different than most tremendous power. He kind of blew me off a bit his dad heard it and I heard him tell the kid I had two youth state championships on my mantle how many did he have. The kid came back over and apologized and talked with me for about an hour and came back to talk generally after every week. It makes a difference when you've got the hardware. I didn't know anyone even knew I was in the picture on the wall.

[Aslan]

I'm not talking about actually running you down or treating you poorly I am talking mostly about respect in a envious way. I have more respect or more envious of a guy that bowls tournaments and has won than just a league bowler. Ive never won an individual tournament. Same with someone who averages 210 on sport conditions that's way more impressive than averaging 210 on THS.

Ya know who I respect? Sometimes I go to the alley and there is a scratch league there...mostly really old men....with their names on the back of their bowling shirts. I respect those guys. They are all getting older....have had numerous surgeries and setbacks...yet not only do they keep playing, but they don't ask for handicap and they wear their names rpoudly on their back. I respect those guys.

And I respect the guys that go to the USBC Open every year. They test their merit against the rest of bowling elite, on challenging conditions, on the biggest stage in bowling.

But who cares what I respect? rvdriver shouldn't give 2 poos what I think. Nobody else does. And if my opinion "bothers" him...pshycologically speaking...it's probably not me at all...it's his OWN doubts. He's searching for validation from others because he has his own doubts.

See, I'm not just a physics/statistics nerd...I minored in Psychology. Which is also a reason why Iceman fascinates me. :p


I had two youth state championships on my mantle how many did he have.

What a cheater! You're totally too old to compete in youth tournaments!

[Amyers]

Well I have to find someway of getting the competition down to my level. Next year I'm bowling in a bantam league. I should really be able to compete against those kids throwing granny style with a 6 pound ball.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Those that bowl open bowling and want league bowler recognition? What is that all about? So if someone is bowling next to me and they don't have a wrist support and a usbc card they don't get respect if they throw some good shots? I'm thinking i need to go over and introduce myself and tell him about the leagues in my house and the fun we have. Is all this respect stuff about someone thinking they are better than you? I will tell you, that never stops at any level. If you are out open bowling 3 things can happen: 1) just like everyone else has had happen someone comes up to you and says how do get the ball to curve like that? So you give them a few tips and tell them to have fun and maybe join a league sometime. 2) You are bowling bad and shot a 140 or 150 and the dude next to you with the house ball is thinking to himself i can beat that guy! 3) You get hot and string some strikes and shoot 220 and the guy next to thinks to himself that is just because he has a fancy bowling ball and wrist support. If i had that i could beat him! It is best to not worry about gaining respect from someone like that. You are better off at the start of your open bowling opening up a dialog with whoever you are bowling next to and trying to encourage them. The same type of thing happens in league as well. A guy that averages less than you thinks he would be just as good if he had your ball or practiced once a week or whatever. That is why i tell people a house shot average is really meaningless because i know guys that average less than me and would be better than me on a certain sport pattern. I know guys that average more than me that could not hit water if they fell out of a boat on a tough shot.

[rv driver]

I can agree with that RV I don't really have it in my house but some other places I have bowled and some other forums I've been on the people have the attitude that if you don't average 230 your not worth the breath to speak too.

I try to friendly and courteous to everyone and realize even though I'm their practicing to compete they are just there to have fun.

I will say though if you come up to me and tell me in open bowling you've shot 200+ over the last few weeks I'll give you the high five and think to myself then bring it to league and prove it. It's just not the same up there by yourself as it is in a competitive environment.

Not saying that to run ya down I just really feel it is different. You can also only do what life and time restraints allow.
I guess I just never let the competition get into my head. Whether alone or in a league, I was always simply competing against myself, so my performance never changed that much.

[rv driver]

rv...that question can be asked and answered in every sport imagineable.

- Why do Nascar guys get all the money and fame...I can drive a car really well.
- Why do professional baseball players look down on softball players...I hit a HR every night in my Thursday softball league.
- Why is the tour de france so special, I can ride a bike.
- How come my college intramural flag football team that is undefeated doesn't make it in the college paper sports section...yet they write about the Division II college team with the losing record?

See rv...those that bowl open bowling, and want "league bowler recognition" are like guys that lower the basketball hoops in their driveways to 9ft and then spend all afternoon dunking the ball and claiming they could probably play college B-Ball IF....they weren't too busy....

Bowling is a GREAT sport...because the only thing stopping you from going to league night and showing how good you really are....is YOU! No farm systems...the annual membership is only like $20-$25...all you gotta do is DO IT. And then, respect earned. But no, I'm not gonna go to cosmic bowling and watch some kid throw a 6lb ball like a jackhole and marvel at his greatness when he lucks into a 180 game. I just bowled a team of 3 (of 5) jackwads that threw thumbless and thought they were God's gift....last week in league play....one of them threw 2 straight balls into the gutter. Lets just say...they weren't very happy when our team of 3 beginners and a couple average bowlers took 3 of 4 points from "God's Gift to bowling".

I've already heard all the excuses. I used to play hockey with a kid that thought he was the most talented skater since Wayne Gretzky...but the kid never even played semi-organized hockey. He always had an excuse....money, a car, not interested, can't make it the nights they play, might be starting a new job, etc...blah blah blah. Yet he had time to hang around street corners and waste money on tons of other stuff...and never had a "job" and always had a ride. Some people just never take that step. And thats fine with me. To each their own. But you can't get the accolades if you never put on the uniform.
I hear what you're saying; I understand your argument, but it doesn't wash. Here's why:
You're using professional sports as examples: Nascar, Tour de France, pro baseball. But, local bowling leagues are not professional sports. I could see if the PBA guys want to stick their noses in the air, but, by-and-large, they're nicer than the rabid local league players! The local leagues are just as "jackleg" as anyone else. I suppose you might compare local leagues to organized school sports, as opposed to pickup, playground games, but you can't compare leagues to actual, professional sports. Here's the thing I can't get past: Bowling is an individual sport -- like golf or tennis. Why, then, is "joining a team" the litmus test of "how serious" one is???

[rv driver]

I'm not talking about actually running you down or treating you poorly I am talking mostly about respect in a envious way. I have more respect or more envious of a guy that bowls tournaments and has won than just a league bowler. Ive never won an individual tournament. Same with someone who averages 210 on sport conditions that's way more impressive than averaging 210 on THS.

I was talking last fall to one of the older kids on my daughters youth league kid has serious talent and I as talking to him about his release because it's different than most tremendous power. He kind of blew me off a bit his dad heard it and I heard him tell the kid I had two youth state championships on my mantle how many did he have. The kid came back over and apologized and talked with me for about an hour and came back to talk generally after every week. It makes a difference when you've got the hardware. I didn't know anyone even knew I was in the picture on the wall.
That makes some sense, however, most league bowlers who stick their noses in the air don't have the hardware. They just show up week after week, like the rest of us. It just seems like an arbitrary litmus test to me.

[rv driver]

Ya know who I respect? Sometimes I go to the alley and there is a scratch league there...mostly really old men....with their names on the back of their bowling shirts. I respect those guys. They are all getting older....have had numerous surgeries and setbacks...yet not only do they keep playing, but they don't ask for handicap and they wear their names rpoudly on their back. I respect those guys.

And I respect the guys that go to the USBC Open every year. They test their merit against the rest of bowling elite, on challenging conditions, on the biggest stage in bowling.

But who cares what I respect? rvdriver shouldn't give 2 poos what I think. Nobody else does. And if my opinion "bothers" him...pshycologically speaking...it's probably not me at all...it's his OWN doubts. He's searching for validation from others because he has his own doubts.

See, I'm not just a physics/statistics nerd...I minored in Psychology. Which is also a reason why Iceman fascinates me. :p



What a cheater! You're totally too old to compete in youth tournaments!
Your opinion doesn't "bother me." I'm just scratching my head as to why a local, amateur league should count for so much in one's resume for respect on the lanes? As I say, it seems rather arbitrary to me.

[rv driver]

Well I have to find someway of getting the competition down to my level. Next year I'm bowling in a bantam league. I should really be able to compete against those kids throwing granny style with a 6 pound ball.
Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Kramer was in a Karate class with a bunch of 6th graders.

[rv driver]

Those that bowl open bowling and want league bowler recognition? What is that all about? So if someone is bowling next to me and they don't have a wrist support and a usbc card they don't get respect if they throw some good shots? I'm thinking i need to go over and introduce myself and tell him about the leagues in my house and the fun we have. Is all this respect stuff about someone thinking they are better than you? I will tell you, that never stops at any level. If you are out open bowling 3 things can happen: 1) just like everyone else has had happen someone comes up to you and says how do get the ball to curve like that? So you give them a few tips and tell them to have fun and maybe join a league sometime. 2) You are bowling bad and shot a 140 or 150 and the dude next to you with the house ball is thinking to himself i can beat that guy! 3) You get hot and string some strikes and shoot 220 and the guy next to thinks to himself that is just because he has a fancy bowling ball and wrist support. If i had that i could beat him! It is best to not worry about gaining respect from someone like that. You are better off at the start of your open bowling opening up a dialog with whoever you are bowling next to and trying to encourage them. The same type of thing happens in league as well. A guy that averages less than you thinks he would be just as good if he had your ball or practiced once a week or whatever. That is why i tell people a house shot average is really meaningless because i know guys that average less than me and would be better than me on a certain sport pattern. I know guys that average more than me that could not hit water if they fell out of a boat on a tough shot.
It's not that I want recognition. It's the paradigm I see again and again of elitism that makes people feel unwelcome or second-class. I could care less about recognition. I'm not an attention hound. But I do think that an atmosphere of mutuality would do the sport a whole lotta good.

[Amyers]

That makes some sense, however, most league bowlers who stick their noses in the air don't have the hardware. They just show up week after week, like the rest of us. It just seems like an arbitrary litmus test to me.

You're absolutely right limiting it to just league RV it is arbitrary. Bowl a league, a local tournament, a larger tournament, talk your house into starting a once a month traveling club where you're competing against others on fresh conditions. My big point is you're not experiencing the competitive side of the game. Leaving you the poorer side of it. If there's nothing on the line it's just practice and we all know what Allen Iverson says about practice.

There are ways to experience the competitive aspects of the game without making that once a week commitment that leagues require.

I'm also not saying they have a right to stick their noses up in the air. In my opinion when you're at the top you have even more of a responsibility to be an ambassador for the game.

[rv driver]

You're absolutely right limiting it to just league RV it is arbitrary. Bowl a league, a local tournament, a larger tournament, talk your house into starting a once a month traveling club where you're competing against others on fresh conditions. My big point is you're not experiencing the competitive side of the game. Leaving you the poorer side of it. If there's nothing on the line it's just practice and we all know what Allen Iverson says about practice.

There are ways to experience the competitive aspects of the game without making that once a week commitment that leagues require.

I'm also not saying they have a right to stick their noses up in the air. In my opinion when you're at the top you have even more of a responsibility to be an ambassador for the game.
You speak a lot of truth here. I am the poorer for not experiencing the competition right now. I guess I never really look at bowling a game as "practice," because I'm always competing with myself.

[fortheloveofbowling]

I wasn't really pointing at you with anything about recognition. I'm just glad when people bowl league and open bowling on a regular basis. I really never have thought about anyone out open bowling looking for that recognition. I do try to recognize anyone though open bowling, league, or tournament for a good game.

[rv driver]

I wasn't really pointing at you with anything about recognition. I'm just glad when people bowl league and open bowling on a regular basis. I really never have thought about anyone out open bowling looking for that recognition. I do try to recognize anyone though open bowling, league, or tournament for a good game.
I didn't think you were -- I just wanted to define that point. You know, I wonder if it's that the league bowlers think the non-participants are being stuck up or something, and that's why the leaguers give them the gate?

[Aslan]

Here's the thing I can't get past: Bowling is an individual sport -- like golf or tennis. Why, then, is "joining a team" the litmus test of "how serious" one is???

Because there's "pretend" and there's "for real". League conditions, league competition, the mental aspect...like I said before...I can bowl 9 game of open bowling in 2 hours before getting tired. But in league bowling, even with the rest between shots, I'm exhausted after 3-4 games.

I think we're confusing courtesy with respect. Like FTLOB, I love when people come up to me and ask me for help or questions about bowling. I'd even like to be a youth coach if I could. Thats "courtesy" and being a good ambassador of the sport. But in terms of "respect"...and maybe this differs from center to center...but I see league bowlers and I see everyone else.

[rv driver]

Because there's "pretend" and there's "for real". League conditions, league competition, the mental aspect...like I said before...I can bowl 9 game of open bowling in 2 hours before getting tired. But in league bowling, even with the rest between shots, I'm exhausted after 3-4 games.

I think we're confusing courtesy with respect. Like FTLOB, I love when people come up to me and ask me for help or questions about bowling. I'd even like to be a youth coach if I could. Thats "courtesy" and being a good ambassador of the sport. But in terms of "respect"...and maybe this differs from center to center...but I see league bowlers and I see everyone else.
You may be right -- it may be that we're conflating courtesy with respect. I'll have to consider that, do some observation and let you know what I think.

[Amyers]

You may be right -- it may be that we're conflating courtesy with respect. I'll have to consider that, do some observation and let you know what I think.

It's also possible there are some a**hats where you bowl. One of the alleys where we bowl on Sundays when my normal house is closed has this thirty year old kid. Who I admit is extremely talented but he's a total jerk. I've tried to talk with him a couple of times and he always blows me off. I'm pretty sure if I ran a pro-shop with a sign made from construction paper I'd have a better attitude. I'll try to take a picture next time I'm there and post it you guys would get a laugh out of it.

[rv driver]

It's also possible there are some a**hats where you bowl. One of the alleys where we bowl on Sundays when my normal house is closed has this thirty year old kid. Who I admit is extremely talented but he's a total jerk. I've tried to talk with him a couple of times and he always blows me off. I'm pretty sure if I ran a pro-shop with a sign made from construction paper I'd have a better attitude. I'll try to take a picture next time I'm there and post it you guys would get a laugh out of it.
I could be TOTALLY misreading people (I doubt it, since my profession deals with "reading people"), but it's really more subtle than that. There's this kind of"inner circle" of, admittedly, young pups who are groupies of the house pro -- pro-shop rats, dontcha know -- guys who the owner carts out to Vegas for the Tournament. And whenever I come into the pro shop to chat or for advice, these guys stand around rolling their eyes and sniggering behind my back. And the pro pays more attention to them than he does to me. None of them really say anything, but you can tell that there's just no respect there. I dunno -- maybe its a kid thing. Or maybe its just this one group. But it seems tied to the whole "You're not a 'real bowler' since you're not on a league" thing.

The point is, this thread isn't being hijacked for a therapy session. I can handle these pups; what I'm saying is that if this is a prevailing attitude nationwide, it's gonna put people off of the sport. It's not good ambassadorship.

[Amyers]

I get what your saying sounds not right but the only real way to earn your way in or show who's top dog is to beat them either in a league or tournament competition. I've seen this in some houses and even a little bit in my own but after bowling with and against them most of the accept me pretty well. There are always some jerks

[rv driver]

I get what your saying sounds not right but the only real way to earn your way in or show who's top dog is to beat them either in a league or tournament competition. I've seen this in some houses and even a little bit in my own but after bowling with and against them most of the accept me pretty well. There are always some jerks
We oughta make 'em bowl against Iceman -- the Equalizer. That'd fix their wagons!

[Aslan]

And whenever I come into the pro shop to chat or for advice, these guys stand around rolling their eyes and sniggering behind my back. And the pro pays more attention to them than he does to me...But it seems tied to the whole "You're not a 'real bowler' since you're not on a league" thing.


I get the same thing when I'm talking to musicians in a band and tell them I sing a mean karaoke. I mean, who the *** are YOU to judge!?

And why does Prince William get that really hot wife? I get why David Beckham gets to bang Posh Spice…because he's a pretty hot dude…I admit. But Prince William looks like a doofus…and he gets whatever her name is??? How come monarchys get hot wives like Princess Diana and stuff and they on't let me join their monarchy??

The World is dumb and unfair.

[rv driver]

I get the same thing when I'm talking to musicians in a band and tell them I sing a mean karaoke. I mean, who the *** are YOU to judge!?

And why does Prince William get that really hot wife? I get why David Beckham gets to bang Posh Spice…because he's a pretty hot dude…I admit. But Prince William looks like a doofus…and he gets whatever her name is??? How come monarchys get hot wives like Princess Diana and stuff and they on't let me join their monarchy??

The World is dumb and unfair.
Thank you for providing a prime example of the "snotty kid" attitude.

We're not talking about "dumb and unfair" or about "poor whine-bucket RV." We're talking about why bowling is going down the tubes. People notice that sort of thing and it turns them off.

Here's a case in point: about 20 years ago, I was playing in a band, and we were invited to open for Kansas. Those guys were really nice. We hung out backstage with them, their keyboard player drifted onstage during sound check and jammed on one of our originals. They treated us as equals, even though we weren't touring musicians. Later, we opened for Loverboy. They were snotty as hell, we outperformed them, and everybody noticed. Kansas has been back to town twice since then. Loverboy... has not.

I've been around professionals of several disciplines. Most of them are kind and respectful. There's no room for baseless snark.

[Aslan]

We're not talking about "dumb and unfair" or about "poor whine-bucket RV." We're talking about why bowling is going down the tubes. People notice that sort of thing and it turns them off.

You're talking about people that for whatever excuse won't join a league…getting turned off to bowling because of discrimination against them for not joining a league…and thus never joining a league. Yet said people….have no desire to join a league anyways…so it's net wash.

It's like me thinking people that sell Maseratis are snobby and didn't pay enough attention to me while I was walking around their showroom….therefore…I will NEVER buy a maserati!! Granted, I had no money and never will have enough to buy a maserati…but THATS NOT THE POINT!!

But it IS the point. You have CHOSEN not to join in leagues and take part in bowling as a casual/cosmic bowler. That is your choice. The consequence for that choice is you will be taken less seriously by more serious, league bowlers. You then say, "well, then I'm not gonna be a league bowler because they are snobs." But…you weren't going to be a league bowler anyways…so what has bowling lost??

Join a league…then, problem solved. You get better, you get respect, and then maybe you can lead the revolution of "less snobby league bowlers" into the 21st century.

[mc_runner]

It's not just a league, any league. If you're not in THEIR special league the proshop rats can still look down on you. I've been to an alley (where I've had a couple balls drilled, their guy is really good) with that kind of mentality. It's definitely an inner circle thing and if you're not in their club you can just tell they're thinking "who is this guy does he even know what he's doing does he even know the owner by name?!"

That's the kind of situation that should probably be avoided and I think what RV is saying. For me it was nothing outright but you kinda feel a little uncomfortable when there's like 5 people all laughing in the shop about *whatever* and you're in there trying to do legitimate business and maybe get some advice.

I'm not really sure there's much of a solution to it, when you bowl a lot and know people that's... kinda where you hang out with them. I'm not really sure its a lack of respect per se, its just kind of a clique-y thing. People know other people in leagues and that's where it starts.

[rv driver]

You're talking about people that for whatever excuse won't join a league…getting turned off to bowling because of discrimination against them for not joining a league…and thus never joining a league. Yet said people….have no desire to join a league anyways…so it's net wash.

It's like me thinking people that sell Maseratis are snobby and didn't pay enough attention to me while I was walking around their showroom….therefore…I will NEVER buy a maserati!! Granted, I had no money and never will have enough to buy a maserati…but THATS NOT THE POINT!!

But it IS the point. You have CHOSEN not to join in leagues and take part in bowling as a casual/cosmic bowler. That is your choice. The consequence for that choice is you will be taken less seriously by more serious, league bowlers. You then say, "well, then I'm not gonna be a league bowler because they are snobs." But…you weren't going to be a league bowler anyways…so what has bowling lost??

Join a league…then, problem solved. You get better, you get respect, and then maybe you can lead the revolution of "less snobby league bowlers" into the 21st century.
No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that some who don't want to be league bowlers, but who might just show up on a weekly basis and throw some games -- who might buy equipment and support the industry and watch the PBA -- might not do those things if they get turned off for simply not being in a league.

I think it's simply poor behavior. These guys would probably roll their eyes and snigger even if I was on a league. Because they're in the "inner circle," they're pups, and they think they know everything -- and they know that they're not so good that they can't be supplanted by someone better. I would expect much better behavior out of, say, Chris Barnes or Norm Duke. That's why I thanked you for pointing out the attitude. It's juvenile. If more people could meet professionals who treat them with respect, no matter their level of play, more people would be more likely to get into the sport, IMO.

[dnhoffman]

So I assume this kid would support my proposition that bowlers are put in leagues based on average?

- First year; < 130; no-tap.
- 130 to 174; handicap house league.
- 175 or more; scratch league.
- >190; scratch/sport league.

If your average drops, you move back down. This solves the problems. No more whining about handicap bowlers winning because of "all their handicap" because all the better bowlers are bowling scratch leagues. And in order to "sandbag" to get moved down…a person would have to sandbag an entire season…unlikely.

As to the tournament stuff…thats a tough one. I mean, on the one hand…I would prefer the ball manufacturers put the money into maybe increasing the PBA event payouts. On the other hand, I think it is a good idea to encourage handicap tournaments…which is what a lot of these tournaments are.

I'd actually like to see the USBC run more handicap tournaments…let the ball manufacturers kick in their money up to the PBA events and a little down to the USBC to encourage the handicap tournaments.

The problem with this is that you differentiate yourself right out of the majority of your customers - casual bowlers.

This system wouldn't allow most couples to bowl together, or new bowlers to bowl with friends who might otherwise recruit them onto their team.

I get what you're saying and all, but I don't see it really see how it creates equanimity more than the handicap system, and limits your customer base more than it helps it.

[Aslan]

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that some who don't want to be league bowlers, but who might just show up on a weekly basis and throw some games -- who might buy equipment and support the industry and watch the PBA -- might not do those things if they get turned off for simply not being in a league.

Non-League, casual bowlers don't generally DO those things. They tend to use house equipment or an old ball, they don't support the industry other than 30-40% of the bowling center income from casual bowlers, they arguably HURT the industry as more and more centers become convinced that bowling centers should be little night clubs, and they generally don't watch the PBA.

You're essentially making the case that we need to bend over backwards for casual bowlers that generally do not contribute to "sport bowling" other than providing supplemental income to the centers...but then saying those casual bowlers are important because they support the industry....yet list things that generally most LEAGUE bowlers do...not casual/cosmic bowlers.


If more people could meet professionals who treat them with respect, no matter their level of play, more people would be more likely to get into the sport, IMO.

The majority of folks here have treated you with respect, are you joining a league yet? If yes, Great! If no, I guess your arguement is off.

[Aslan]

The problem with this is that you differentiate yourself right out of the majority of your customers - casual bowlers.

This system wouldn't allow most couples to bowl together, or new bowlers to bowl with friends who might otherwise recruit them onto their team.

I get what you're saying and all, but I don't see it really see how it creates equanimity more than the handicap system, and limits your customer base more than it helps it.

Well, thats the trouble with the proposal. It forces players to bowl where they "should"...but in many cases...forcing them to do what they "should" is just gonna cause them to say "screw this" and leave. Thats how non-sanctioned leagues came into being...bowlers wanted to bowl shorter seasons, lower costs, not as much restrictions due to "rules"...so bamm...unsanctioned leagues.

I don't see my proposal ever really working...like you said, it creates a logistics problem with friends and relatives that want to bowl together but can't. And in sparsely populated areas, thats a BIG deal...because if you're driving 45 minutes through the mountains and snow to bowl in a league...you don't want to make that trip alone and twice as often.

[rv driver]

It's not just a league, any league. If you're not in THEIR special league the proshop rats can still look down on you. I've been to an alley (where I've had a couple balls drilled, their guy is really good) with that kind of mentality. It's definitely an inner circle thing and if you're not in their club you can just tell they're thinking "who is this guy does he even know what he's doing does he even know the owner by name?!"

That's the kind of situation that should probably be avoided and I think what RV is saying. For me it was nothing outright but you kinda feel a little uncomfortable when there's like 5 people all laughing in the shop about *whatever* and you're in there trying to do legitimate business and maybe get some advice.

I'm not really sure there's much of a solution to it, when you bowl a lot and know people that's... kinda where you hang out with them. I'm not really sure its a lack of respect per se, its just kind of a clique-y thing. People know other people in leagues and that's where it starts.
Ok. So I'm not crazy. To their credit, the center personnel are very nice and helpful, and go out of their way to treat everyone as if they have value. But some of the clientele sure make me want to go somewhere else. i won't do that, because I like the house pro, and I know and like the owner.

[bowl1820]

Thats how non-sanctioned leagues came into being...bowlers wanted to bowl shorter seasons, lower costs, not as much restrictions due to "rules"...so bamm...unsanctioned leagues.

In regard to leagues wanting shorter "schedules" and lower costs. sanctioned leagues can set the length to whatever they want. The USBC doesn't set the length.

Becoming unsanctioned only has a minor affect on costs, league fees like lineage, prize money, sponsor fee's are set by the league and the house.

So becoming unsanctioned has little bearing on those.

How is the length of the league schedule determined?
The length of the schedule and other commercial aspects of the game (such as price of
bowling, time, number of teams, etc.) are matters to be negotiated by the league and the
proprietor. Because a proprietor has specific rights as an independent business person,
USBC has no jurisdiction over these commercial aspects,


Most unsanctioned leagues , became unsanctioned do to a feeling that they weren't getting their moneys worth from the USBC like the changes to the awards and do to rule restrictions.

[Aslan]

I can only go by what I've seen in person and read on here...

And the leading arguements people had against joining "sanctioned leagues" was:
- cost
- length/duration

And I'll add based on the league Bunny and I did...I think there are some people that join non-sanctioned leagues because they know they can cheat and nobody really cares. And that seemed to be the case in that league.

Personally, and this is just my opinion, I think the length thing is silly (as Bowl1820 said, that can be changed for a sanctioned league) and I think the cost thing is REDICULOUS. I mean, I'm no Rockafeller...but you're talking $21-$24 a YEAR!!! Thats how much you pay to join the USBC. That is VERY cheap. And add on what? $7 or $13 to join the local USBC for the YEAR. I mean, come on. If you can't afford $2/month to join the USBC...maybe don't bother because the gas to drive back and forth is gonna run you that just pulling in and out of your driveway.

[Amyers]

I can only go by what I've seen in person and read on here...

And the leading arguements people had against joining "sanctioned leagues" was:
- cost
- length/duration

And I'll add based on the league Bunny and I did...I think there are some people that join non-sanctioned leagues because they know they can cheat and nobody really cares. And that seemed to be the case in that league.

Personally, and this is just my opinion, I think the length thing is silly (as Bowl1820 said, that can be changed for a sanctioned league) and I think the cost thing is REDICULOUS. I mean, I'm no Rockafeller...but you're talking $21-$24 a YEAR!!! Thats how much you pay to join the USBC. That is VERY cheap. And add on what? $7 or $13 to join the local USBC for the YEAR. I mean, come on. If you can't afford $2/month to join the USBC...maybe don't bother because the gas to drive back and forth is gonna run you that just pulling in and out of your driveway.

Not disagreeing with you I don't get the whole non sanctioned thing either but I do believe a portion of the weekly fees go to the USBC also not sure if I'm right about that but I think so.

[Mike White]

Not disagreeing with you I don't get the whole non sanctioned thing either but I do believe a portion of the weekly fees go to the USBC also not sure if I'm right about that but I think so.

The only $$ going to USBC is the once per year sanction card fee.

The approx $20 is split between Head Quarters in Texas, your state, and your local association.

I think the HQ is limited to $10, the state is something like $1, and the rest goes to the local association.

[Amyers]

The only $$ going to USBC is the once per year sanction card fee.

The approx $20 is split between Head Quarters in Texas, your state, and your local association.

I think the HQ is limited to $10, the state is something like $1, and the rest goes to the local association.

Ok thanks for straightening me out Mike

[Aslan]

Now to play devil's advocate and sort of agree with RV...one sport that I DO see the clique attitude hurting it is Golf.

I was thinking of this this morning. Lets say I want to take a friend or coworker to the golf course with me some weekend afternoon to golf...yet he's never golfed before.

I actually would NEVER do that. Why? Because with a new or bad golfer, everyone behind us would be totally peeved and upset. It would ruin whatever fun and relaxation the golfing provides.

I remember as a beginner golfer, one Saturday with another beginner golfer...it took us 6.5 hours to complete 18 holes (walking). We must have let 11-19 groups play through. And had we NOT let them play through...we'd have backed up the course so badly they'd have been shooting up on us or the Ranger would have showed up.

Golf, which has been in decline in much of the East/Midwest/South...is a dichotomy because they WANT it to be a popular sport...but they don't want more people cluttering up the courses and have no tolerance for any high handicap golfer they get stuck behind.

[rv driver]

Now to play devil's advocate and sort of agree with RV...one sport that I DO see the clique attitude hurting it is Golf.

I was thinking of this this morning. Lets say I want to take a friend or coworker to the golf course with me some weekend afternoon to golf...yet he's never golfed before.

I actually would NEVER do that. Why? Because with a new or bad golfer, everyone behind us would be totally peeved and upset. It would ruin whatever fun and relaxation the golfing provides.

I remember as a beginner golfer, one Saturday with another beginner golfer...it took us 6.5 hours to complete 18 holes (walking). We must have let 11-19 groups play through. And had we NOT let them play through...we'd have backed up the course so badly they'd have been shooting up on us or the Ranger would have showed up.

Golf, which has been in decline in much of the East/Midwest/South...is a dichotomy because they WANT it to be a popular sport...but they don't want more people cluttering up the courses and have no tolerance for any high handicap golfer they get stuck behind.
It sort of doesn't make sense to openly disdain newcomers to the sport. You'd think they'd be welcome with open arms... even if it is an inconvenience.

[Bunny]

HBO's Real Sports had a good story last week on the major decline of golf over the last few years.

[rv driver]

HBO's Real Sports had a good story last week on the major decline of golf over the last few years.
Thing about golf is that it's so dad gum EXPENSIVE!!! $500 or more for a good set of clubs, $200 for a bag, shoes, balls, tees, etc. Greens fees + club memberships are outrageous.

[Aslan]

It sort of doesn't make sense to openly disdain newcomers to the sport. You'd think they'd be welcome with open arms... even if it is an inconvenience.

Trust me...they are NOT.

You think smirks and giggling is bad in the pro shop...these guys welcome newbies by driving a ball and landing it next to them as a "warning shot" to hurry up. Imagine being at the bowling alley pro shop and a league player just throws a bowling ball and it lands next to you. A LOT more subtle of a "hint".

[bowl1820]

In regard to leagues wanting shorter "schedules" and lower costs. sanctioned leagues can set the length to whatever they want. The USBC doesn't set the length.

Becoming unsanctioned only has a minor affect on costs, league fees like lineage, prize money, sponsor fee's are set by the league and the house.

So becoming unsanctioned has little bearing on those.

How is the length of the league schedule determined?
The length of the schedule and other commercial aspects of the game (such as price of
bowling, time, number of teams, etc.) are matters to be negotiated by the league and the
proprietor. Because a proprietor has specific rights as an independent business person,
USBC has no jurisdiction over these commercial aspects,


Most unsanctioned leagues , became unsanctioned do to a feeling that they weren't getting their moneys worth from the USBC like the changes to the awards and do to rule restrictions.

Update: Now that they have the new usbc rules up and looking at the changes made.

About leagues wanting shorter "schedules"

according to the new rule changes for the new season.

It appears that there was a old rule (though I haven't found it in the old books yet), that if a adult league was shorter than 16 weeks it couldn't be a certified league. Thus they went unsanctioned.

But they have changed that now.

They can get the "Adult Basic Membership"

USBC Adult Basic membership
Bowlers competing in short-season leagues now can purchase a USBC Adult Basic membership. (Though it's only good for that league, if you bowl in another short league you have to get another card for it too. so your better off getting the regular card still)

(Bowlers with a current Adult Standard membership would not be required to purchase a USBC Adult Basic membership)

Available for bowlers who compete in leagues that have 16 or fewer sessions, the membership costs $10, not including state dues, and provides a USBC-certified average so bowlers can compete in local, state and national tournaments.

you can read about it here:
click for USBC Adult Basic membership (http://www.bowl.com/Program_Changes_2014/Program_Changes_2014-2015_Home/Adult_short-season_membership_now_available/)

[rv driver]

Trust me...they are NOT.

You think smirks and giggling is bad in the pro shop...these guys welcome newbies by driving a ball and landing it next to them as a "warning shot" to hurry up. Imagine being at the bowling alley pro shop and a league player just throws a bowling ball and it lands next to you. A LOT more subtle of a "hint".
And we wonder why the sport doesn't grow. Sorry, even if the newbies are an inconvenience, this is tantamount to these redneck truck guys who use additives to purposely blow diesel smoke at people they don't like, and giving them the finger as they roar by. It's just poor form that fosters enmity rather than camaraderie.

[rv driver]

Update: Now that they have the new usbc rules up and looking at the changes made.

About leagues wanting shorter "schedules"

according to the new rule changes for the new season.

It appears that there was a old rule (though I haven't found it in the old books yet), that if a adult league was shorter than 16 weeks it couldn't be a certified league. Thus they went unsanctioned.

But they have changed that now.

They can get the "Adult Basic Membership"

USBC Adult Basic membership
Bowlers competing in short-season leagues now can purchase a USBC Adult Basic membership. (Though it's only good for that league, if you bowl in another short league you have to get another card for it too. so your better off getting the regular card still)

(Bowlers with a current Adult Standard membership would not be required to purchase a USBC Adult Basic membership)

Available for bowlers who compete in leagues that have 16 or fewer sessions, the membership costs $10, not including state dues, and provides a USBC-certified average so bowlers can compete in local, state and national tournaments.

you can read about it here:
click for USBC Adult Basic membership (http://www.bowl.com/Program_Changes_2014/Program_Changes_2014-2015_Home/Adult_short-season_membership_now_available/)
Here's a question for you: I've bowled league, but never tournament. Are tournaments only open to USBC members with sanctioned averages? Or can anyone enter and take their chances?

[Amyers]

Here's a question for you: I've bowled league, but never tournament. Are tournaments only open to USBC members with sanctioned averages? Or can anyone enter and take their chances?

It depends on if it is sanctioned or not. If it is you must purchase a USBC membership and you can bowl but you must bowl scratch if you don't have a book average.

[rv driver]

It depends on if it is sanctioned or not. If it is you must purchase a USBC membership and you can bowl but you must bowl scratch if you don't have a book average.
I thought that might be the case. I simply don't have any experience with tournaments. (Last time I threw league was when it was ABC).

[Aslan]

Here's a question for you: I've bowled league, but never tournament. Are tournaments only open to USBC members with sanctioned averages? Or can anyone enter and take their chances?

Depends on the tournament/sponsor/association

PBA Tournaments often require a PBA card (>$$). USBC tournaments require some form of USBC membership dues (< $). ABTA and ABT and TNBA will often require you to join their association (< $). Local alley tournaments usually don't require a "membership" or dues or you to be sanctioned.

But the real disadvantage of being non-sanctioned is the average you take with you into handicap tournaments. For USBC tournaments, you NEED a book average OR sometimes they'll take a sanctioned league average. BUT...they will NOT take non-sanctioned averages. And if you bowl without a sanctioned average, you generally get 0 handicap or bowl in the highest division.

ABTA/ABT/TNBA generally also require some type of verified average. They are a little "looser"...and might except a non-sanctioned league sheet. I actually got annoyed at an ABTA tournament because one of the gals running it bowled with like a 165 average and I looked up her USBC book average and it was like 174. It seems to me that if you have a book, THAT should be used...not whatever you say your league average is.

So, the answer is, it varies. I've bowled in a USBC tournament and an ABTA tournament. The USBC ones are more strict and run better...it's more about the competition. The ABT/ABTA/TNBA are more about $$$ and sidepots and brackets and trying to win money/balls/bags...and the rules are more "lax". If you're a lower average bowler, the USBC tournaments will be better but you MUST have a USBC membership and be in a sanctioned league. If you're a 200+ scratch bowler...you might prefer the ABTA/ABT/TNBA where you can often make more money and the rules aren't as favorable to low average/handicap bowlers.

[rv driver]

Depends on the tournament/sponsor/association

PBA Tournaments often require a PBA card (>$$). USBC tournaments require some form of USBC membership dues (< $). ABTA and ABT and TNBA will often require you to join their association (< $). Local alley tournaments usually don't require a "membership" or dues or you to be sanctioned.

But the real disadvantage of being non-sanctioned is the average you take with you into handicap tournaments. For USBC tournaments, you NEED a book average OR sometimes they'll take a sanctioned league average. BUT...they will NOT take non-sanctioned averages. And if you bowl without a sanctioned average, you generally get 0 handicap or bowl in the highest division.

ABTA/ABT/TNBA generally also require some type of verified average. They are a little "looser"...and might except a non-sanctioned league sheet. I actually got annoyed at an ABTA tournament because one of the gals running it bowled with like a 165 average and I looked up her USBC book average and it was like 174. It seems to me that if you have a book, THAT should be used...not whatever you say your league average is.

So, the answer is, it varies. I've bowled in a USBC tournament and an ABTA tournament. The USBC ones are more strict and run better...it's more about the competition. The ABT/ABTA/TNBA are more about $$$ and sidepots and brackets and trying to win money/balls/bags...and the rules are more "lax". If you're a lower average bowler, the USBC tournaments will be better but you MUST have a USBC membership and be in a sanctioned league. If you're a 200+ scratch bowler...you might prefer the ABTA/ABT/TNBA where you can often make more money and the rules aren't as favorable to low average/handicap bowlers.
Thanks for the detailed info! But first I gotta get into a league. Before I compete with others, I've gotta get my mojo back and stop competing with my own burgeoning limitations that seem to have grown exponentially since I last bowled. Hopefully, by Fall 2015 (perhaps summer), I'll have sufficiently relearned the game and built some muscle memory to the point where I can concentrate on competition.

[Amyers]

Thanks for the detailed info! But first I gotta get into a league. Before I compete with others, I've gotta get my mojo back and stop competing with my own burgeoning limitations that seem to have grown exponentially since I last bowled. Hopefully, by Fall 2015 (perhaps summer), I'll have sufficiently relearned the game and built some muscle memory to the point where I can concentrate on competition.

There you go RV get out there and kick some a**

[rv driver]

There you go RV get out there and kick some a**
By 2016, I may fly out to Vegas and open a can of whupasp on Aslan and Iceman! And I may even use my old rubber ball to do it :-P (Thought I'd start practicing talking smack now.)

[Amyers]

By 2016, I may fly out to Vegas and open a can of whupasp on Aslan and Iceman! And I may even use my old rubber ball to do it :-P (Thought I'd start practicing talking smack now.)

Smacks only good if you can back it up one of these too is going to be wearing egg on their face. Where's Rob in all of this I haven't heard any smack from him at all. Is he preparing for defeat? Or just loading his guns?

[rv driver]

Smacks only good if you can back it up one of these too is going to be wearing egg on their face. Where's Rob in all of this I haven't heard any smack from him at all. Is he preparing for defeat? Or just loading his guns?
Some guys don't neeeeeed smack...

Anthony, Roth, Williams, Duke... Rob?