Inside Lines VS Outside Lines

[Amyers]

I have been bowling more inside lines with my new asylum and it has me thinking about how I have bowled in the past. I have always played my lines as more of a tweener to outside bowler

Basically Tweener (20-25 with the feet 10-15 target) with very little movement to the right after I release (target 10 break point 8 or so) Outside (15-20 feet 5-10 target) also with very little movement to the right.

With the asylum I'm more outside with much more movement to the right. Standing 25 targeting 12 five at the break point or standing 30 targeting 15 eight-ten at the break point.

With this outside line it seems that accuracy is not as much of a premium that it is with the tweener outside lines. As far as I can tell with the inside lines if I get the ball outside of 10 I get a solid pocket hit. I had one shot last night with me at thirty standing the ball got out to 1-2 board still came back in the pocket strike. I also had some shots that went across 15 out to 10 strike. With an outside line I do not have ten boards of miss room.

I'm not saying that all ten boards is the optimal strike line have left some 7 and 10 pins but all with solid pocket hits no light stuff no middle of the head pin hits.


My real question here is am I thinking wrong here or why doesn't everyone throw these lines?

I also understand these lines may not work as well on sport patterns just referring to THS.

[MICHAEL]

Its just another tool to have in your arsenal when needed in my opinion! Sometimes on House oil especially, that out side works great! Other times for what ever reason, the inside works great. This is something I am working on at the present time! The more ways you know to attack the lanes, the better. A Rose by Any other lane is still a Rose...... (or is that name? lol)

[mc_runner]

Sounds like you've found the sweet spot for your ball. Some balls won't have the recovery room for a down and in shot and you have to hit within a board or 2 downlane... while some are better for that kind of throw and will recover better off the end of the pattern. I can't throw my Vivid down the same line as my LT-48 for example - I mean I CAN but one ball's strength is different than another's and the LT-48 is better at holding it's line and not going over/under (but I can't play inside as well with it since it won't hook in enough).

[Amyers]

Sounds like you've found the sweet spot for your ball. Some balls won't have the recovery room for a down and in shot and you have to hit within a board or 2 downlane... while some are better for that kind of throw and will recover better off the end of the pattern. I can't throw my Vivid down the same line as my LT-48 for example - I mean I CAN but one ball's strength is different than another's and the LT-48 is better at holding it's line and not going over/under (but I can't play inside as well with it since it won't hook in enough).

True I can't play that line with my Euphoria either and I'm sure there are plenty of higher speed rev challenged bowlers who can't get out there regardless of ball but mainly was wondering for those who can why they aren't.

[RobLV1]

They don't because they think they don't have enough "hand" to get the ball back so they try to help it which kills it all together. You just discovered that modern bowling balls are so strong that they will get back all by themselves. Congratulations!

[Aslan]

They don't because they think they don't have enough "hand" to get the ball back so they try to help it which kills it all together. You just discovered that modern bowling balls are so strong that they will get back all by themselves. Congratulations!

Mine won't. I can prove it.

For the past year, I've primarily played the "outside" line. Now, that is going to vary GREATLY in terms of what one person considers outside/middle/inside versus what someone else considers outside/inside/middle...but primarily I would tend to lay the ball down around the 10-board and use the 7-board at the arrows. I consider anything 8-board or right of that (for righties) as "outside".

The advantage to this line for me was:
1) With very few rpms...it can often get the ball a better angle into the pocket just by letting the ball and lanes work together.
2) As the lanes break down, it gives you the most room left to move.
3) It's usually outside of the common track (9-13 boards) where many of the bowlers are going to be playing.

Recently, I've been following Rob's recommendation that instead of playing a certain line and then adjusting to make that line work...perhaps you should try all 3 lines and see which one the individual lane is "giving to you" to play.

So now in pre-league practice; I will throw at least one ball on each of the 3 "lines". The ball may differ mased on what ball works better on each line (pre-determined in practice). With 5 options, I chooser the ball that is in the "middle" in terms of aggressiveness...which gives me room to ball up or ball down if needed.

What I'VE found is that many times the lane will dictate the "middle" line rather than the outside or inside. Especially now that the lanes are synthetic and they seem to be adding more oil...my low rpms aren't letting me use the inside line and the "dry" on the outside isn't quite as "dry" as it used to be...both lines leading to weak hits.

But I'm still open to using whatever line seems to work best. Last Thursday, one lane seemed to point towards the middle line while the other pointed towards using the outside line. Sunday, when bowling on the Wolf pattern, I bowled the outside line on one lane and inside line on the other.

Part of my learning process, in addition to eventually finding more revs, is to change my concept of what "inside" is. Bill O'Neill plays the "inside" line by standing with his left foot near the left gutter and targeting the 2-board 3/4 down the lane on a short pattern. I can say with 100% certainty...THAT is not the same "inside line" that Rob uses if you watch his videos nor is that the line that many folks on here who have embraced the "inside" line.

For us "non-Bill O'Neills"...the "inside line" is more throwing the ball up the center and allowing it to "catch" the dry, then come back leisurely into the pocket. Not the angular motion you see in all the bowling ball promotional videos. So NOW...instead of trying (with utter futility) to play an inside line where I'm standing near the left gutter and trying to hit the breakpoint...I've moved my "inside line" into more of laying it down on the 18-board and aiming for something like the 17-board at the arrows. Once where you lay it down starts to vary too much from your target at the arrows...thats when you start to create so much angle that you NEED RPMs.

I want to develop my inside line as yet another "option"...another tool in the toolbox per se. But I still honestly feel that the more rev dependent your game becomes...the more erratic the scores become. Mike White is a perfect example. As he showed in the VBT last month...is potential to score dwarfs the competition. But, it has to be on conditions that are consistent with his expectations. You take him outside the lanes and fresh oil that his game is adapted for...and he struggles...sometimes mightily. His game is rev dominant. He's the only guy I know (seen in person) that gets an angular motion without throwing thumbless or 2-handed. And when he's "on"...he's almost unbeatable. But when he's "off"....??? I used to be similar...my higher rev rate was great for getting me scores in the 180s...despite HORRID spare shooting skills. But when I was "off"....I'd score int the 120s, 100s, 90s...

So, for right now...my game focuses on accuracy and repeatability. Sure...it's frustrating...to bowl clean games in the 170s-190s and strike at 10-20%. Thats VERY frustrating! But I'll take scores in the 160s-190s consistently over scores in the 90s-220s all over the map. Eventually the revs will come...and when they do...maybe I can spend more time on the inside. Who knows...maybe someday I'll join Bill O'Neill by the left gutter! But not anytime soon I'm afraid.

[Amyers]

Mine won't. I can prove it.

For the past year, I've primarily played the "outside" line. Now, that is going to vary GREATLY in terms of what one person considers outside/middle/inside versus what someone else considers outside/inside/middle...but primarily I would tend to lay the ball down around the 10-board and use the 7-board at the arrows. I consider anything 8-board or right of that (for righties) as "outside".

The advantage to this line for me was:
1) With very few rpms...it can often get the ball a better angle into the pocket just by letting the ball and lanes work together.
2) As the lanes break down, it gives you the most room left to move.
3) It's usually outside of the common track (9-13 boards) where many of the bowlers are going to be playing.

Recently, I've been following Rob's recommendation that instead of playing a certain line and then adjusting to make that line work...perhaps you should try all 3 lines and see which one the individual lane is "giving to you" to play.

So now in pre-league practice; I will throw at least one ball on each of the 3 "lines". The ball may differ mased on what ball works better on each line (pre-determined in practice). With 5 options, I chooser the ball that is in the "middle" in terms of aggressiveness...which gives me room to ball up or ball down if needed.

What I'VE found is that many times the lane will dictate the "middle" line rather than the outside or inside. Especially now that the lanes are synthetic and they seem to be adding more oil...my low rpms aren't letting me use the inside line and the "dry" on the outside isn't quite as "dry" as it used to be...both lines leading to weak hits.

But I'm still open to using whatever line seems to work best. Last Thursday, one lane seemed to point towards the middle line while the other pointed towards using the outside line. Sunday, when bowling on the Wolf pattern, I bowled the outside line on one lane and inside line on the other.

Part of my learning process, in addition to eventually finding more revs, is to change my concept of what "inside" is. Bill O'Neill plays the "inside" line by standing with his left foot near the left gutter and targeting the 2-board 3/4 down the lane on a short pattern. I can say with 100% certainty...THAT is not the same "inside line" that Rob uses if you watch his videos nor is that the line that many folks on here who have embraced the "inside" line.

For us "non-Bill O'Neills"...the "inside line" is more throwing the ball up the center and allowing it to "catch" the dry, then come back leisurely into the pocket. Not the angular motion you see in all the bowling ball promotional videos. So NOW...instead of trying (with utter futility) to play an inside line where I'm standing near the left gutter and trying to hit the breakpoint...I've moved my "inside line" into more of laying it down on the 18-board and aiming for something like the 17-board at the arrows. Once where you lay it down starts to vary too much from your target at the arrows...thats when you start to create so much angle that you NEED RPMs.

I want to develop my inside line as yet another "option"...another tool in the toolbox per se. But I still honestly feel that the more rev dependent your game becomes...the more erratic the scores become. Mike White is a perfect example. As he showed in the VBT last month...is potential to score dwarfs the competition. But, it has to be on conditions that are consistent with his expectations. You take him outside the lanes and fresh oil that his game is adapted for...and he struggles...sometimes mightily. His game is rev dominant. He's the only guy I know (seen in person) that gets an angular motion without throwing thumbless or 2-handed. And when he's "on"...he's almost unbeatable. But when he's "off"....??? I used to be similar...my higher rev rate was great for getting me scores in the 180s...despite HORRID spare shooting skills. But when I was "off"....I'd score int the 120s, 100s, 90s...

So, for right now...my game focuses on accuracy and repeatability. Sure...it's frustrating...to bowl clean games in the 170s-190s and strike at 10-20%. Thats VERY frustrating! But I'll take scores in the 160s-190s consistently over scores in the 90s-220s all over the map. Eventually the revs will come...and when they do...maybe I can spend more time on the inside. Who knows...maybe someday I'll join Bill O'Neill by the left gutter! But not anytime soon I'm afraid.

I knew this was going to trigger an Aslan post I'm surprised it wasn't two pages. Actually I like your detailed info and that you back up what your saying. I'm still working on it myself. Had a bad game my first game in leagues last night. I still close up sometimes or screw the release up but I'm finding myself more and more comfortable moving left. I don't think I'll ever be out there with O'Neil either not sure I want to be. It is liberating the extra miss room you have out there compared to the outside lines.

I've played the inside line you are talking about in you reply for years but its really nothing like what I experienced last night. The ball seemed almost like it was seeking out where it wanted to be instead of me putting it where I wanted. I didn't throw any 300's or anything but I don't know for the first time in a long while I felt like if I quit making my few mistakes really high scores are just around the corner. I say this now I'm subbing for a guy tonight I'll go throw some miserable scores but who knows. Never tempt the bowling gods by getting to full on yourself.

[RobLV1]

Mine won't. I can prove it.

For the past year, I've primarily played the "outside" line. Now, that is going to vary GREATLY in terms of what one person considers outside/middle/inside versus what someone else considers outside/inside/middle...but primarily I would tend to lay the ball down around the 10-board and use the 7-board at the arrows. I consider anything 8-board or right of that (for righties) as "outside".

The advantage to this line for me was:
1) With very few rpms...it can often get the ball a better angle into the pocket just by letting the ball and lanes work together.
2) As the lanes break down, it gives you the most room left to move.
3) It's usually outside of the common track (9-13 boards) where many of the bowlers are going to be playing.

Recently, I've been following Rob's recommendation that instead of playing a certain line and then adjusting to make that line work...perhaps you should try all 3 lines and see which one the individual lane is "giving to you" to play.

So now in pre-league practice; I will throw at least one ball on each of the 3 "lines". The ball may differ mased on what ball works better on each line (pre-determined in practice). With 5 options, I chooser the ball that is in the "middle" in terms of aggressiveness...which gives me room to ball up or ball down if needed.

What I'VE found is that many times the lane will dictate the "middle" line rather than the outside or inside. Especially now that the lanes are synthetic and they seem to be adding more oil...my low rpms aren't letting me use the inside line and the "dry" on the outside isn't quite as "dry" as it used to be...both lines leading to weak hits.

But I'm still open to using whatever line seems to work best. Last Thursday, one lane seemed to point towards the middle line while the other pointed towards using the outside line. Sunday, when bowling on the Wolf pattern, I bowled the outside line on one lane and inside line on the other.

Part of my learning process, in addition to eventually finding more revs, is to change my concept of what "inside" is. Bill O'Neill plays the "inside" line by standing with his left foot near the left gutter and targeting the 2-board 3/4 down the lane on a short pattern. I can say with 100% certainty...THAT is not the same "inside line" that Rob uses if you watch his videos nor is that the line that many folks on here who have embraced the "inside" line.

For us "non-Bill O'Neills"...the "inside line" is more throwing the ball up the center and allowing it to "catch" the dry, then come back leisurely into the pocket. Not the angular motion you see in all the bowling ball promotional videos. So NOW...instead of trying (with utter futility) to play an inside line where I'm standing near the left gutter and trying to hit the breakpoint...I've moved my "inside line" into more of laying it down on the 18-board and aiming for something like the 17-board at the arrows. Once where you lay it down starts to vary too much from your target at the arrows...thats when you start to create so much angle that you NEED RPMs.

I want to develop my inside line as yet another "option"...another tool in the toolbox per se. But I still honestly feel that the more rev dependent your game becomes...the more erratic the scores become. Mike White is a perfect example. As he showed in the VBT last month...is potential to score dwarfs the competition. But, it has to be on conditions that are consistent with his expectations. You take him outside the lanes and fresh oil that his game is adapted for...and he struggles...sometimes mightily. His game is rev dominant. He's the only guy I know (seen in person) that gets an angular motion without throwing thumbless or 2-handed. And when he's "on"...he's almost unbeatable. But when he's "off"....??? I used to be similar...my higher rev rate was great for getting me scores in the 180s...despite HORRID spare shooting skills. But when I was "off"....I'd score int the 120s, 100s, 90s...

So, for right now...my game focuses on accuracy and repeatability. Sure...it's frustrating...to bowl clean games in the 170s-190s and strike at 10-20%. Thats VERY frustrating! But I'll take scores in the 160s-190s consistently over scores in the 90s-220s all over the map. Eventually the revs will come...and when they do...maybe I can spend more time on the inside. Who knows...maybe someday I'll join Bill O'Neill by the left gutter! But not anytime soon I'm afraid.

You find the "middle" line works in practice because the oil is fresh and that's where the oil line is. Inside there is more oil (less friction = ball doesn't hook as much or finish as strong), and outside there is less oil - more friction (more friction = ball doesn't hook as much or finish as strong). This is particularly true if you start with an intermediate ball to allow you to ball up or down. If you start with a more aggressive ball, you can start further in, and if you start with a less aggressive ball, you can start further out. Just remember that when you choose to start further out, or even around the second arrow, you need to be aware that as your line dries up and you have to move left, you may very well be moving right into an area that another bowler has already dried up.

[Shaneshu87]

my Black Widow Legend is that way i had a 10 board mark. for me it has allot to do with the ball, i can play my Raw Hammer Jacked straight up the 10 and average just the same as i can with my Legend playing the lanes open, i fi tried to play my jacked on the same line as the legend it would probably sink the 6 pin since it simply does not have the ability to come back with my low revs. it does not matter how you strike just as long as your striking.

[Aslan]

If you start with a more aggressive ball, you can start further in,
Maybe. But based on my recent ball study, there is little difference ball to ball (Shh...the bowling ball companies don't want that to get out)


and outside there is less oil - more friction (more friction = ball doesn't hook as much or finish as strong)....... and if you start with a less aggressive ball, you can start further out.???
So, are you saying that I can start with a less aggressive ball further out because it's drier and will hook more...but the finish/angle isn't going to be as strong?? Those two statements (above) seem to contradict each other. Might be a typo.


Just remember that when you choose to start further out, or even around the second arrow, you need to be aware that as your line dries up and you have to move left, you may very well be moving right into an area that another bowler has already dried up.
I used to worry about that...but even in a 5-man team (x2) there are like 8 RH bowlers...and the line doesn't seem to dry up until game 3, midway or near the end. I mean, yeah...if you're talking tournaments or something like that...but on house conditions with 3/5 of the bowlers unable to even hit their mark in the first place...I haven't noticed it much.

But yes, early on in my experimentation...playing the outside line...I was worried that by the time I got to boards 9-13...they'd be dried up and I'd start getting even more hook. I even designed a "system" to help with this which made me ball down when I got to that track and move further inside and ball up if that wasn't working. But I've abandoned that system for my new one.


This is particularly true if you start with an intermediate ball to allow you to ball up or down.

IF there is ANYTHING to arsenals...which 1 year ago I would have said was complete nonsense...and am now sort of "wavering" on post-ball study....THEN, you MUST give yourself room to ball up or down. If you start inside with your most aggressive ball...and you're not getting the reaction you want...you have room to move outside and adapt...but it may not give you the best angle. But the real problem is what if it hooks too much...there's only so far you can move left...then you're really in trouble. IF (and I'm not 100% sold on this yet) arsenals are an important part of today's game...then I think the most prudent approach is to calculate which of your balls is capable of what...rank them...and when deciding on an optimal line...using the ball in the middle (for me, #3 of 5 choices).

It would be great to have time to roll every ball in our arsenal on every different imaginable line (envisions Iceman with a wheelbarrow full of balls and practice taking 3.5 hours) but we don't have time for that. You got maybe 10 shots in a 5-man league. Using my old strategy I would start with the most aggressive ball as far right as I could...then move left over time. And I'd rarely ever move to another ball...I mean, why would I?? I have PLENTY of room to move left!!

But NOW...after seeing my strike rate dip into the sub 30s....and seeing weak pocket hit after weak pocket hit after weak pocket hit...I'm trying to figure out how to vary my lines and vary my arsenal so that I can turn those pocket hits into strikes. Otherwise, I'm going to end up the best spare shooter in the history of bowling....that nobody has ever heard of because my maximum possible score is a god*** 201!

Whats interesting Rob...is early on...from reading much of your "stuff" (here and elsewhere)...you seemed to be very "pro-arsenal"...but recently it seems you've moved away from that position to a "just play inside and move your feet" sort of position. Have you seen yourself moving to a different position? Or am I just reading too much into the articles? And I don't mean that with any disrespect...I actually think many "experts" are flawed in their inability to change positions...no matter WHAT.

Also, disclaimer for new people...don't listen to me...listen to Rob...he is wise and Aslan sucks (<-----doesnt even throw a plastic spare ball for crying out loud!)

[Aslan]

I knew this was going to trigger an Aslan post I'm surprised it wasn't two pages.
Realize it's 20% out of annoyance with the "inside line" that everyone claims is "the cure" yet nobdy ever mentions the drawbacks to that line (more likely to go through the head, washouts, ...) and 80% out of frustration with my present game (lack there of actually).


Actually I like your detailed info and that you back up what your saying.
The bottom line is, bowling is a simple game that is highly dependent on physics. From the time you pick up your bowling ball from the ball return...you could give physics lectures on about 12 different topics as you approach, release, the ball travels, and finally makes contact with the pins. To me, it is what is so frustrating yet at the same time fascinating about the sport. Bowling is about the only sport that you can do as a blind person...maybe swimming. It requires little physical prowess. And it's one of the few games that on a given day, you could actually beat a pro (although highly unlikely).

And I give such detailed information, and make a case for it, and disagree at times...because bowling is a game where people read this stuff...and then skip on over to their bowling center and try to do what they read. And they get frustrated because "3 people said I should play the inside line and that my ball would do the work and I don't need any hand, etc.." and they'll get frustrated. It's NOT that the advice was bad. It's just that different bowlers have different styles, limitations, and equipment...and bowl on different conditions. So sometimes it helps to get a counter-arguement or different prospective so that they can stop and go, "hmm...I'll have to think about that before I do it."


I'm still working on it myself. Had a bad game my first game in leagues last night. I still close up sometimes or screw the release up but I'm finding myself more and more comfortable moving left. I don't think I'll ever be out there with O'Neil either not sure I want to be. It is liberating the extra miss room you have out there compared to the outside lines.
I wouldn't count on that miss room.
1) When you play inside...IF you miss...it's likely a washout or a split. You might get lucky and it's just a weak hit...but be careful.
2) That miss room changes GREATLY condition to condition!

When I used to roll on wood....I LOVED IT!! I could miss 6 boards to the right!!! SIX BOARDS!!! Do you think that "helped" or "hurt" my game? It hurt it. Because whether it was other local centers or Vegas...I suddenly was throwing the ball all over the place! Prior to switching from wood to synthetic...I think our league had 7 bowlers with averages over 200. As of last week we had 2. A LOT of people miss that 6-board cushion they used to get...just sayin.

Everybody wants to take short cuts. They want to bowl 2-handed, or thumbless, or buy a better ball. But the BOTTOM LINE is...the difference between YOU and a PBA PRO...is TWO THINGS:
1) 10,000 hours of practice
2) They have a shot variation of 1.5 inches and your shot varies by several inches or more.

Thats it. Close those 2 gaps...we'll be watching you on TV. Ignore those 2 gaps and focus on any of the other 12,000 different bowling distractions...you get to see your name at the top of the league scoresheet a few times a season.

Sorry...saw an empty soapbox and had to get up on it.

[RobLV1]

Maybe. But based on my recent ball study, there is little difference ball to ball (Shh...the bowling ball companies don't want that to get out)

???
So, are you saying that I can start with a less aggressive ball further out because it's drier and will hook more...but the finish/angle isn't going to be as strong?? Those two statements (above) seem to contradict each other. Might be a typo.


I used to worry about that...but even in a 5-man team (x2) there are like 8 RH bowlers...and the line doesn't seem to dry up until game 3, midway or near the end. I mean, yeah...if you're talking tournaments or something like that...but on house conditions with 3/5 of the bowlers unable to even hit their mark in the first place...I haven't noticed it much.

But yes, early on in my experimentation...playing the outside line...I was worried that by the time I got to boards 9-13...they'd be dried up and I'd start getting even more hook. I even designed a "system" to help with this which made me ball down when I got to that track and move further inside and ball up if that wasn't working. But I've abandoned that system for my new one.



IF there is ANYTHING to arsenals...which 1 year ago I would have said was complete nonsense...and am now sort of "wavering" on post-ball study....THEN, you MUST give yourself room to ball up or down. If you start inside with your most aggressive ball...and you're not getting the reaction you want...you have room to move outside and adapt...but it may not give you the best angle. But the real problem is what if it hooks too much...there's only so far you can move left...then you're really in trouble. IF (and I'm not 100% sold on this yet) arsenals are an important part of today's game...then I think the most prudent approach is to calculate which of your balls is capable of what...rank them...and when deciding on an optimal line...using the ball in the middle (for me, #3 of 5 choices).

It would be great to have time to roll every ball in our arsenal on every different imaginable line (envisions Iceman with a wheelbarrow full of balls and practice taking 3.5 hours) but we don't have time for that. You got maybe 10 shots in a 5-man league. Using my old strategy I would start with the most aggressive ball as far right as I could...then move left over time. And I'd rarely ever move to another ball...I mean, why would I?? I have PLENTY of room to move left!!

But NOW...after seeing my strike rate dip into the sub 30s....and seeing weak pocket hit after weak pocket hit after weak pocket hit...I'm trying to figure out how to vary my lines and vary my arsenal so that I can turn those pocket hits into strikes. Otherwise, I'm going to end up the best spare shooter in the history of bowling....that nobody has ever heard of because my maximum possible score is a god*** 201!

Whats interesting Rob...is early on...from reading much of your "stuff" (here and elsewhere)...you seemed to be very "pro-arsenal"...but recently it seems you've moved away from that position to a "just play inside and move your feet" sort of position. Have you seen yourself moving to a different position? Or am I just reading too much into the articles? And I don't mean that with any disrespect...I actually think many "experts" are flawed in their inability to change positions...no matter WHAT.

Also, disclaimer for new people...don't listen to me...listen to Rob...he is wise and Aslan sucks (<-----doesnt even throw a plastic spare ball for crying out loud!)

1. It's no typo. A ball played in too much oil will skid further and appear to hook less, while a ball played in too much friction will hook sooner, run out of energy and will hook less.

2. As I have said time and time again, an aggressive ball does not hook more than a less aggressive ball, it just hooks sooner. You can't choose a ball based on what gets you to the pocket, you must choose a ball, played on the line that the lane demands that you play, that gives you the most miss room, and the greatest amount of carry when you don't miss.

3. Very perceptive about my point of view about arsenals, at least to a point. Bowlers have gone full circle from refusing to carry more than one ball, to bringing a zillion balls to league in order to play on a part of the lane that doesn't want to be played. Your comment about weak hit after weak hit seems to confirm this. If you keep trying to play in the friction, your ball loses energy, and the result is a loss of carry. For most league situations, three balls and a spare ball are plenty. The more you understand the motion of the ball and can make educated ball changes when they are really required, the less you will find yourself making them.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Rob's point #1 there is really the perfect definition of what i like to see especially early on in a set. Using a medium to strong ball that revs up early and reads the mid lane, i try to play right on top of the shim. Get it a little right in the dry and it burns up a little and does not over hook and a little left has enough power to start rolling up in the oil.

[RobLV1]

As I have stated a lot recently, my switch to Brunswick equipment was based primarily on my desire to play left of the league bowlers who always play the second arrow. By starting with a more aggressive bowling ball and playing left of them, most days I only have to adjust as my own line burns up, and I rarely run into anyone who is left of me. I not talking, by the way, of starting at the fourth arrow. I usually start around 13 board, and rarely have to get left of about 16 or 17 during a three game set.

[Amyers]

Realize it's 20% out of annoyance with the "inside line" that everyone claims is "the cure" yet nobdy ever mentions the drawbacks to that line (more likely to go through the head, washouts, ...) and 80% out of frustration with my present game (lack there of actually).


The bottom line is, bowling is a simple game that is highly dependent on physics. From the time you pick up your bowling ball from the ball return...you could give physics lectures on about 12 different topics as you approach, release, the ball travels, and finally makes contact with the pins. To me, it is what is so frustrating yet at the same time fascinating about the sport. Bowling is about the only sport that you can do as a blind person...maybe swimming. It requires little physical prowess. And it's one of the few games that on a given day, you could actually beat a pro (although highly unlikely).

And I give such detailed information, and make a case for it, and disagree at times...because bowling is a game where people read this stuff...and then skip on over to their bowling center and try to do what they read. And they get frustrated because "3 people said I should play the inside line and that my ball would do the work and I don't need any hand, etc.." and they'll get frustrated. It's NOT that the advice was bad. It's just that different bowlers have different styles, limitations, and equipment...and bowl on different conditions. So sometimes it helps to get a counter-arguement or different prospective so that they can stop and go, "hmm...I'll have to think about that before I do it."


I wouldn't count on that miss room.
1) When you play inside...IF you miss...it's likely a washout or a split. You might get lucky and it's just a weak hit...but be careful.
2) That miss room changes GREATLY condition to condition!

When I used to roll on wood....I LOVED IT!! I could miss 6 boards to the right!!! SIX BOARDS!!! Do you think that "helped" or "hurt" my game? It hurt it. Because whether it was other local centers or Vegas...I suddenly was throwing the ball all over the place! Prior to switching from wood to synthetic...I think our league had 7 bowlers with averages over 200. As of last week we had 2. A LOT of people miss that 6-board cushion they used to get...just sayin.

Everybody wants to take short cuts. They want to bowl 2-handed, or thumbless, or buy a better ball. But the BOTTOM LINE is...the difference between YOU and a PBA PRO...is TWO THINGS:
1) 10,000 hours of practice
2) They have a shot variation of 1.5 inches and your shot varies by several inches or more.

Thats it. Close those 2 gaps...we'll be watching you on TV. Ignore those 2 gaps and focus on any of the other 12,000 different bowling distractions...you get to see your name at the top of the league scoresheet a few times a season.

Sorry...saw an empty soapbox and had to get up on it.

A few points to this:

#1. I haven't noticed any more weak hits or washouts than throwing outside with the euphoria. or washouts with this line. I may have had a few more splits but if it's up it's less than one per game and I'll take that for the higher strike percentage. Most of those have been caused by me being slow to move than the line itself.

#2. I've played this on synthetics also no real difference

#3. I have no immediate plans to join the PBA tour. If I do I will wait until 50 and join the old guys. I figure by the amount of torque Belmo puts on his back he'll be in a wheel chair by then and should be easy.

#4. You are correct about all advice not fitting everyone. I couldn't do what I'm doing now three weeks ago I'm still not all the way there. I'm not telling my wife who has less revs than you to start bowling the same lines I am no more than I am going to pick up a ball tomorrow and start hooking the gutters.

#5 this from one of Rob's post about your ball burning up out on the dry I think you have way more of that then you know.

[Amyers]

As I have stated a lot recently, my switch to Brunswick equipment was based primarily on my desire to play left of the league bowlers who always play the second arrow. By starting with a more aggressive bowling ball and playing left of them, most days I only have to adjust as my own line burns up, and I rarely run into anyone who is left of me. I not talking, by the way, of starting at the fourth arrow. I usually start around 13 board, and rarely have to get left of about 16 or 17 during a three game set.

Just because I wonder what was it about Brunswick equipment you felt was more suited to playing left? Other than the Forterra which I like it seems to me there equipment is less suited to playing out there than some of the others.

[RobLV1]

Brunswick balls read the oil. You can play in, and the ball will start the read in the oil and still finish. They won't over-read the dry. The Fortera Exile, with the OOB finish, reacts like it comes from Utah. To make it Brunswick, I put a 1000 surface on four sides and finished it off very lightly with 4000. Tonight I threw the Mastermind Genius, the Meanstrak Brawler, and the LT 48. I missed being high on the pair by one pin.

[Amyers]

Brunswick balls read the oil. You can play in, and the ball will start the read in the oil and still finish. They won't over-read the dry. The Fortera Exile, with the OOB finish, reacts like it comes from Utah. To make it Brunswick, I put a 1000 surface on four sides and finished it off very lightly with 4000. Tonight I threw the Mastermind Genius, the Meanstrak Brawler, and the LT 48. I missed being high on the pair by one pin.

I understand Brunswick has been putting out some nice pieces. I don't see very many where I bowl my leagues at but one of the local places we visit has a Brunswick staffer in the pro shop who really likes there stuff.

[Aslan]

1. It's no typo. A ball played in too much oil will skid further and appear to hook less, while a ball played in too much friction will hook sooner, run out of energy and will hook less.
So according to that logic...whether you play a ball in oil or friction...it will hook less. Thats depressing.


3. Very perceptive about my point of view about arsenals, at least to a point.

HA!! Rob is an expert and he said I am perceptive! So the rest of you can ^^^^ it!! I'm awesome!! (to a point).

[mc_runner]

So according to that logic...whether you play a ball in oil or friction...it will hook less. Thats depressing.


To me it sounds more like that's if you're playing the wrong ball, or the wrong line for the ball. The right line or right line for the ball will hook just enough! Just like Goldilocks... one oatmeal was too hot, one was too cold but one was juuuuuust right :cool:

[Aslan]

To me it sounds more like that's if you're playing the wrong ball, or the wrong line for the ball. The right line or right line for the ball will hook just enough! Just like Goldilocks... one oatmeal was too hot, one was too cold but one was juuuuuust right :cool:

Oh. So now we base our bowling game on fairy tales about heartless females that commit B&E and larceny?

[RobLV1]

So according to that logic...whether you play a ball in oil or friction...it will hook less. Thats depressing.



HA!! Rob is an expert and he said I am perceptive! So the rest of you can ^^^^ it!! I'm awesome!! (to a point).


You missed the key word: A ball played the oil will APPEAR to hook less. A ball played in too much friction WILL hook less. Big difference!

[Aslan]

You missed the key word: A ball played the oil will APPEAR to hook less. A ball played in too much friction WILL hook less. Big difference!

Ohhhh...tricky! Which ball will both "appear" and "actually" allow me to score in the > 260 range?? And can we get that ball in a size that is USBC compliant?? That is the important question.

[Amyers]

Ohhhh...tricky! Which ball will both "appear" and "actually" allow me to score in the > 260 range?? And can we get that ball in a size that is USBC compliant?? That is the important question.

I'm pretty sure that would take one the size of a beach ball. I don't think that would be USBC compliant

[rv driver]

I'm pretty sure that would take one the size of a beach ball. I don't think that would be USBC compliant
I was thinking of the big rock in Raiders of the Lost Ark...

[RobLV1]

Ohhhh...tricky! Which ball will both "appear" and "actually" allow me to score in the > 260 range?? And can we get that ball in a size that is USBC compliant?? That is the important question.

Any ball that is thrown on the correct part of the lane, that hits the target 90% of the time with an appropriate rev rate will allow you to score in the 260 range. Without hitting the target on the correct part of the lane with an appropriate rev rate, no ball of any size will allow you to score in the 260 range. Stop arguing and get to work!

[Amyers]

Any ball that is thrown on the correct part of the lane, that hits the target 90% of the time with an appropriate rev rate will allow you to score in the 260 range. Without hitting the target on the correct part of the lane with an appropriate rev rate, no ball of any size will allow you to score in the 260 range. Stop arguing and get to work!

True that even if it is easier to say than do

[Aslan]

Stop arguing and get to work!

That sounds way harder than Iceman's "having a gift" philosophy.

[Mike White]

So according to that logic...whether you play a ball in oil or friction...it will hook less. Thats depressing.



HA!! Rob is an expert and he said I am perceptive! So the rest of you can ^^^^ it!! I'm awesome!! (to a point).

Rather than focus on how much the ball is hooking, think of it as when does the transition occur.

If you keep the ball inside (too much oil) the transition occurs too late for the ball to complete the hook phase and enter the roll phase.

Incomplete hook phase means less angle of entry.

If you put the ball into the dry too soon, the transition occurs too early.

If the ball completes the hook phase before the end of the oil pattern, the ball rolls fairly parallel to the boards through the back ends.

The ball will try to generate angle of entry during the hook phase, but it will run back into the oil causing ball to lose traction and angle towards the pocket.

[MICHAEL]

That sounds way harder than Iceman's "having a gift" philosophy.

I can't wait for VEGAS!!!

I bowled with the legendary Pat Henderson yesterday and ask him a bunch of bowling questions! Have you ever had a coaching lesson,,, reply: NO

What mark do you aim at when releasing the ball? Answer: I just look at a general area, no specific spot!

He knows how to move left, right, up, and back, but its no rocket science to him! HE HAS THE GIFT, without a doubt!

At 60 still throwing 800s and 300s! We call him around here, THE BEAST!

Some people just have this incredible gift, like Pat, and all the knowledge in the world can't compensate for that!

Never had a coaching lesson in his life, just picked up things on his own!

I have a lot of respect for coaches like Rob, but I will stand by this: ( A COACH can only get you so far, then the talent you have, or don't have will reveal itself) You can't pump water from a dry well, even with the BEST PUMPING SYSTEM! :rolleyes:

Some people , like Pat, just have THE GIFT! Something you can't learn, but wish you had!! I know I do!! He is THE BEAST!

[Mike White]

You missed the key word: A ball played the oil will APPEAR to hook less. A ball played in too much friction WILL hook less. Big difference!

Only with a very tortured definition of "hook less" could this be true.

A ball too much in the oil WILL hook less, a ball too much in the dry WILL hook more (but too soon) then straighten out.

Personally, if I get the ball too much into the oil, I'm likely to leave a 2-4-5-8, but if I get the ball far enough out into the dry to make contact with the headpin in the same location, I'm likely to leave a 2-10.

Those are dramatically different amounts of hook.

But then again, I put enough hand in the ball that it is more likely to hook into the left gutter than roll out,

[Mike White]

I can't wait for VEGAS!!!

I bowled with the legendary Pat Henderson yesterday and ask him a bunch of bowling questions! Have you ever had a coaching lesson,,, reply: NO

What mark do you aim at when releasing the ball? Answer: I just look at a general area, no specific spot!

He knows how to move left, right, up, and back, but its no rocket science to him! HE HAS THE GIFT, without a doubt!



I tend to think he has adopted that "general area" due to the modern oil patterns, and balls.

Ask him if he just looked at a general area back in the 70-80's.

[MICHAEL]

I tend to think he has adopted that "general area" due to the modern oil patterns, and balls.

Ask him if he just looked at a general area back in the 70-80's.

I will see, him Friday,,, will ask that question! I might ask him to come to Vegas with me,,, but the problem would be I want to ride my bike, and he just wouldn't look hot enough to be sitting behind me on my Goldwing!!

I THINK I will ask if he's interested in chewing up some west coast meat!!!! On a HOUSE PATTERN,,, any house I've seen him on he is the beast.

I did ask his ball speed and weight of ball, Like I mentioned earlier, 16lb, and ball speed of 19mph! Pate the Beast Henderson, Funny,,,,, he calls me Animal every time I see him!! LOL We do have a good time, and like I said will be bowling this fall on his team Tuesdays at 1pm (senior league!)

He might be a senior but he can kick but when the chips are down, on house patterns against any age bracket! He won the big 22, that AMF throws each year, 1st place 4000.00 bucks each, him and his partner. This year they got second place 3000.00 buck each. The Big 22 is a two person league at AMF"S that have a tournament for all that qualify at the end of the season.

[Aslan]

I tend to think he has adopted that "general area" due to the modern oil patterns, and balls.

Ask him if he just looked at a general area back in the 70-80's.

Exactly.

It's sad to see guys go out there now and throw thumbless...hitting all over God's green Earth...and they'll score 134-264-127 and they'll act like they're ready for the PBA because they've throw 2 300-games and almost thrown 4-6 more.

The "downside" is they tend to be completely unable to pick up spares...and when the pattern changes or becomes tougher...they can barely break 160 and are more likely to throw < 120.

It's real simple folks. Remember the movie: "The Patriot"? Remember "aim small; miss small"? It's the advice I use at the shooting range and the advice I use ion bowling. If a guy can hit a 1.5 inch spot every time...he's a pro. If he can't, he's everybody else.

[Mike White]

Exactly.

It's sad to see guys go out there now and throw thumbless...hitting all over God's green Earth...and they'll score 134-264-127


Is it better to put your thumb in the ball, hitting all over God's green Earth, and score 134-164-127?

[mike_thomas93]

I didn't know you were a Brunswick guy, Rob. Nice. Plan to get my mastermind genius in another week or so.

[mike_thomas93]

Probably because majority are likely throwing none other than storm/roto, as we are all sentient of that. ;p

[mike_thomas93]

I have seen myself do that several times. I know now that's a no-no.

[mike_thomas93]

I agree with Ice master on this. Versatility is pretty much the one word that summarizes his response. With versatility, makes you a better bowler.