Arm swing help

[Emery]

During a lesson I was told that I muscle the ball instead of letting the ball to the work and having my arm act like a free swinging pendulum. So I've been practicing this but I'm having trouble keeping my hand cupped and behind the ball. When I loosen my arm and go I to my backswing my wrist seems to loosen aswel. How do I tech myself to loosen my arm, while keeping my wrist position strong?

[Shaneshu87]

hmmm thats a tough one, it is just something that comes with practice i guess, maybe try a wrist brace.

[Emery]

hmmm thats a tough one, it is just something that comes with practice i guess, maybe try a wrist brace.

That's something I wanted to avoid. I don't want to become dependent on the brace.

[Shaneshu87]

yeah i hear ya, i'm a big guy and have always tried to muscle the ball, until this year when i joined a pba experience league lol that taught my how to slow down, my best advice is dont bring the ball back as far on your back swing, the only muscle you need to use is to push it out then let gravity drop the ball and in to your back swing.

[mc_runner]

Yeah when I bring mine up too high it messes with the wrist action which in turn messes up the release. Stay a little lower in your backswing and see if that helps.

[Emery]

Wouldn't stopping the ball in my backswing kind of defeat the natural swing/pendulum action tho?

[Shaneshu87]

Wouldn't stopping the ball in my backswing kind of defeat the natural swing/pendulum action tho?

yes/no it just depends on how high you are comfortable with on your back swing, you don't have to jack your arm sky high and power through, i personally bring my arm about shoulder level and sometime even less depending on what shot i'm on, your back swing can really dictate your ball speed, and just like in most things speed and control dont always go hand in hand

[bubba809]

I am so much more accurate when I keep my ball lower in my stance and approach. It may sound funny, but when I try to bring my ball back further I lose accuracy AND speed.

[Amyers]

I am so much more accurate when I keep my ball lower in my stance and approach. It may sound funny, but when I try to bring my ball back further I lose accuracy AND speed.

If your trying to bring your arm back farther you are adding muscle any time you add muscle to the swing accuracy will generally decline.

[RobLV1]

Okay, two things:

1. More often than not a muscled armswing is the result of late timing. When your foot gets to the foul line in front of the ball, the tendency is to pull the ball forward to help it to catch up. How do you do that? By muscling the ball. Have someone check your timing. The slide foot and the ball should reach the foul line at the same time.

2. Keeping a firm wrist is very old school. Watch virtually all of the top pros today and you will see the wrist start loaded (cupped), unload at the top of the back swing, and reload at the point of release. Check out some video of Michael Fagan to see what I'm talking about.

[Amyers]

Okay, two things:

1. More often than not a muscled armswing is the result of late timing. When your foot gets to the foul line in front of the ball, the tendency is to pull the ball forward to help it to catch up. How do you do that? By muscling the ball. Have someone check your timing. The slide foot and the ball should reach the foul line at the same time.

2. Keeping a firm wrist is very old school. Watch virtually all of the top pros today and you will see the wrist start loaded (cupped), unload at the top of the back swing, and reload at the point of release. Check out some video of Michael Fagan to see what I'm talking about.

In this release scenario why do they start with the cup? if you are just uncupping it at the top of the back swing what does it accomplish?

[RobLV1]

I really don't know. The only one that I know who doesn't start cupped is Team USA Bowler David Haynes. He starts unloaded, and doesn't load until the release point.

[Amyers]

I really don't know. The only one that I know who doesn't start cupped is Team USA Bowler David Haynes. He starts unloaded, and doesn't load until the release point.

Wow I found a question Rob doesn't know the answer too. I do wonder why I can't really see what difference it would make if your releasing it at the top of the swing

[RobLV1]

Does anyone release at the top of the backswing? I don't think so. I said that he doesn't load until the release point. That would be at the bottom of the downswing.

[Amyers]

Does anyone release at the top of the backswing? I don't think so. I said that he doesn't load until the release point. That would be at the bottom of the downswing.

I was referring to releasing the cup at the top of the backswing not the ball. That would make it difficult too bowl. 😏

[RobLV1]

What are you talking about? Most contemporary bowlers load initially, unload at the top of the backswing, and reload at the release point. All I said was that David Haynes starts unloaded, remains unloaded, and loads just before the release point. Did I say it wrong?

[bowl1820]

2. Keeping a firm wrist is very old school. Watch virtually all of the top pros today and you will see the wrist start loaded (cupped), unload at the top of the back swing, and reload at the point of release.Check out some video of Michael Fagan to see what I'm talking about.

This doesn't quite sound right. "Reload at the point of release"? Most everything I see say's you unload at the point of release.

If your loaded (meaning cupped) through the release you run the risk of tugging, lofting and it's a lot stress on the wrist.

If your unloaded at the top of the backswing, you would load (cup) on the down swing then unload at the release.

the oft mentioned analysis of a modern release video has a section showing them cupped in the down swing and uncupping at the release.



Check out some video of Michael Fagan to see what I'm talking about

heres a article about fagan w/pics.

http://www.billspigner.com/pdf/0810_Bill_BJI.pdf

excerpt:
"On the downswing, when he starts loading up his wrist and elbow to dig under the ball"

[Hammer]

I've seen videos of pro bowlers start out with a straight wrist and when they get to the top of their backswing their palm is facing outward to
the right and when they start to come down to the release point they start loading up by either cupping or cocking their wrist. At the release
point the thumb comes out quickly and then they uncup or uncock which gives them good revs. I cup before the release point so I have to practice uncupping at the release point. When I get it right the ball really has some action when it hits the dry.

[RobLV1]

Most people describe the modern release as being similar to using a yo-yo. You start with the wrist cupped as you being the yo-yo's descent, it is uncupped as the yo-yo reaches the bottom of its descent, and and it is recupped as the yo-yo comes back up. The wrist has to reload at the point of release to get the revs on the ball. I think we may have a semantic problem using the words "point of release." The point of release is after the thumb has exited, but before the fingers have exited. Does that make more sense?

[bowl1820]

Most people describe the modern release as being similar to using a yo-yo. You start with the wrist cupped as you being the yo-yo's descent, it is uncupped as the yo-yo reaches the bottom of its descent, and and it is recupped as the yo-yo comes back up. The wrist has to reload at the point of release to get the revs on the ball. I think we may have a semantic problem using the words "point of release." The point of release is after the thumb has exited, but before the fingers have exited. Does that make more sense?

Yes I understand where your going.

what your saying is after you have uncupped (Which you have to, to get your thumb out of the ball cleanly) and your thumb is out of the ball. You cup up (reload) your hand to basically roll the ball off your fingers adding rev's.

I think the confusion has to do with the wording of the descriptions.

Like I think a lot of people would think of the "point of release" as the point where your going to release the ball.

Not the point after they have released the ball where the thumb has exited, but before the fingers have exited.

[Amyers]

What are you talking about? Most contemporary bowlers load initially, unload at the top of the backswing, and reload at the release point. All I said was that David Haynes starts unloaded, remains unloaded, and loads just before the release point. Did I say it wrong?


My question was what is the purpose of the initial load what does the unload at the top of the backswing accomplish? Why not start unloaded as Mr. Haynes does as you mentioned?

[Amyers]

Yes I understand where your going.

what your saying is after you have uncupped (Which you have to, to get your thumb out of the ball cleanly) and your thumb is out of the ball. You cup up (reload) your hand to basically flip the ball off your fingers adding rev's.

I think the confusion has to do with the wording of the descriptions.

Like I think a lot of people would think of the "point of release" as the point where your going to release the ball.

Not the point after they have released the ball where the thumb has exited, but before the fingers have exited.

I am not so sure here is a link to a recent article in bowling this month where he refers to recupping the wrist at the point of release to help get the thumb out of the ball.

http://www.bowlingthismonth.com/?email_id=39&user_id=202&urlpassed=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5ib3dsaW5ndGhpc21vbnRoLmNv bS9hcnRpY2xlL3Nob3VsZHMtYW5kLXNob3VsZC1ub3RzLXBhcn QtMy8%2FdXRtX3NvdXJjZT13eXNpamEmdXRtX21lZGl1bT1lbW FpbCZ1dG1fY2FtcGFpZ249MjAxNDA4MTlfRW1haWxfTmV3c2xl dHRlcg%3D%3D&controller=stats&action=analyse&wysija-page=1&wysijap=subscriptions

This confused the devil out of me. Also if it is as you think Rob is saying what is the difference between that and what we used to call "hitting up on the ball" that I didn't think you were supposed to do anymore.

[bowl1820]

This confused the devil out of me. Also if it is as you think Rob is saying what is the difference between that and what we used to call "hitting up on the ball" that I didn't think you were supposed to do anymore.

I may not have worded it well myself. I changed "Flip" to "Roll" in it now.

because that "hitting up on the ball" thing had dawned me after writing it. Though "hitting up” as Rob said in that article is releasing the ball in an upward direction instead of out on the lane.

The flipping the ball with the fingers as I meant it isn't that.

I still kinda of think the " reloaded" at point of release wording isn't quite right (I don't know how I would word it though).

(And I don't see that being used in that article either. But I have those issue and I'll go back and reread them)


As another thought there are articles and discussion's that think the cupping isn't needed.

That just a firm or slightly cupped wrist is needed and it's the cocking and uncocking of the wrist that is important.

[Amyers]

I may not have worded it well myself. I changed "Flip" to "Roll" in it now.

because that "hitting up on the ball" thing had dawned me after writing it. Though "hitting up” as Rob said in that article is releasing the ball in an upward direction instead of out on the lane.

The flipping the ball with the fingers as I meant it isn't that.

I still kinda of think the " reloaded" at point of release wording isn't quite right (I don't know how I would word it though).

(And I don't see that being used in that article either. But I have those issue and I'll go back and reread them)


As another thought there are articles and discussion's that think the cupping isn't needed.

That just a firm or slightly cupped wrist is needed and it's the cocking and uncocking of the wrist that is important.


This is the most confusing thing in bowling in my opinion. I don't know if the terminology changes between one author or person making a video or if there really are this many different versions of the release. I suspect the latter and the important thing maybe do what works for you.

I've experimented with quite a few different things since coming back to this great game. Currently I'm using a little cup and trying to keep my the ball on my index finger with a little bit of cock towards the left and it's been working for me. I experimented with the full cup and cock but when I did I got to inconsistent with it one shot wouldn't really hook the next one I would send the ball straight sideways as soon as it hit the dry.

I really don't know if I break my wrist at release or not I do know if I'm gripping now I can feel my thumb not come out cleanly. I'm going to try and get some video of my actual release to see exactly what happens there but haven't done it most of the video I have is to far away to get a good look. Might be interesting to try and some of the cup back after the thumb comes out but one I'm really not sure that I need the extra revs or that I have enough feeling and timing with it yet to do it consistently.

[bowl1820]

This is the most confusing thing in bowling in my opinion. I don't know if the terminology changes between one author or person making a video or if there really are this many different versions of the release. I suspect the latter and the important thing maybe do what works for you.

I have felt for long time that terminology is a problem. A lot of time's it has to do with trying to describe thing's you just can't really describe in words (at least not accurately).



back to this great game. Currently I'm using a little cup and trying to keep my the ball on my index finger with a little bit of cock towards the left and it's been working for me.

That's basically me, Now I use a adjustable brace. I have it set for a firm wrist / slight cup, a little cock to the left.

Now using the brace I can't uncup my wrist, I maybe sacrificing somethings using it but I'm okay with that. because of the consistency it provides having a set hand position.

[Amyers]

I have felt for long time that terminology is a problem. A lot of time's it has to do with trying to describe thing's you just can't really describe in words (at least not accurately).



That's basically me, Now I use a adjustable brace. I have it set for a firm wrist / slight cup, a little cock to the left.

Now using the brace I can't uncup my wrist, I maybe sacrificing somethings using it but I'm okay with that. because of the consistency it provides having a set hand position.

My wife has been looking for a wrist brace as she suffers from carpel tunnel and lacks the strength she needs to properly perform a cupped release. Any suggestions from someone who uses one. I've never tried one.

[RobLV1]

Welcome to the wonderful world of writing! I can't begin to tell you how many times that I have written a 2500 word article, reworked it several times, sometimes totally scraped it and started over, still to have a few people totally miss what I was trying to say. Whoever said that a picture is worth a thousand words was oh so right. This gets to the heart of coaching as well. Sometimes you have to say the same thing in several different ways until you finally come up with the words that the student understands.

As to a wrist brace, I sometimes use the "Lifter" from Mongoose which is, I just found out, approved once again for use in PBA events. Don't even ask about the "Lifter" reference! LOL

[bowl1820]

My wife has been looking for a wrist brace as she suffers from carpel tunnel and lacks the strength she needs to properly perform a cupped release. Any suggestions from someone who uses one. I've never tried one.

I don't want to hijack the thread with talk of braces.
Here's a link to several threads talking about them.
http://www.bowlingboards.com/search.php?searchid=271686

But if she has carpel, I've seen people wear actual carpel tunnel braces bowling. If she has one it would work, she won't be cupping much.

There are several good ones the Mongoose is a popular one.

I use a Moro Pro Release Extend Ver. it's a more expensive brace.