Better in one league than another?????

[Blomer]

This Fall I am bowling much better on my Wednesday night league compared to Monday night! I don't get it!!! Both are 5 member teams. Might be more of my line is being played, my concentration, both and more? Does anyone seem to do better in one league and not the other when they are both house shots or same patterns?

[Amyers]

I averaged 30 pins left on my Monday night vs my Friday night leagues this summer. Don't really know why possibly the kids were bowling with us on Monday night so added frustration level but still 30 pins. I threw 2 good series in that league all Summer and a lot of stinkers. Same lanes same oil. Still haven't figured it out.

[J Anderson]

This Fall I am bowling much better on my Wednesday night league compared to Monday night! I don't get it!!! Both are 5 member teams. Might be more of my line is being played, my concentration, both and more? Does anyone seem to do better in one league and not the other when they are both house shots or same patterns?

How many pins are we talking about? It's normal to be a few pins more or less in a second league, even if it is the same pattern in the same center. There are so many factors that can affect our scores that I won't even try to start listing them.

The conditions that I bowl on vary greatly between leagues. Mondays I bowl on sport patterns, Wednsdays it's a THS pattern that has already had a league bowl on it and we don't start until 9:00p.m. Thursdays are on a fresh THS but I'm bowling opposite hand.

[circlecity]

Last year I was about 10 pins off on my monday league vs. the wednesday league. Better competition in wednesday league I feel leads to my better bowling. Going against a guy with a 229 average or a person with a 145 average makes a difference mentally for me anyway.

[bubba809]

Blomer- Are you still throwing the Hy-Road Solid in both leagues exclusively or do you use the Optimus at all?

[RobLV1]

I think that a lot of it is a matter of which pairs of lanes you're on from week to week, and being patient and grinding when you get on a pair where you struggle. If you can learn to accept the fact that some days you get on a pair that just isn't kind to you in terms of pin carry and just pick up your spares, you'll find that your league averages will be much more consistent. This is especially true this early in the season when one bad week can really have a major effect on your overall average.

[vdubtx]

I bowl in 2 houses and last year average was different by 12 pins, 231 vs 219. In my case, one house is lower volume of oil and I struggle a bit more when conditions are burned up in the later games. Also, the same house is a 5 man league where the other is a 4 mixed fun league. Don't have as many people on my same line as I do on the 5 man league.

Working to get better at the drier conditions and keep my cool when things start going through the nose.

As Rob mentioned, grinding out games is what you have to do. 3 weeks in on the 5 man league and having not had too much practice over the summer, it is starting to come back and I am getting more consistent at hitting my shots. Spares are not the problem for me right now, it's striking. :)

[foreverincamo]

Years ago I bowled Monday thru Thursday at the same house. Three men's leagues and one mixed league. The tougher the competition, the better I was. Same house, same oil, but if I wasn't being challenged I scored lower.

[Blomer]

Blomer- Are you still throwing the Hy-Road Solid in both leagues exclusively or do you use the Optimus at all?

In both leagues I start off with the Hy road solid. Towards the end I may go to the optimus.

[Stormed1]

Many times it's the level of competition. People tend to concentrate more and try harder against tougher opponents. Who your bowling with can also have an effect too.
Also what people are throwing can have a direct influence on how the lanes transition and your ability to keep up with transition

[RobLV1]

In both leagues I start off with the Hy road solid. Towards the end I may go to the optimus.

It seems like you are only looking at the cover material and surfaces of your bowling balls and totally ignoring the core characteristics. The HyRoad has an rg of 2.57 and a differential of 0.046. The Optimus has an rg of 2.48 and a differential of 0.048. While the differentials are very close, the 2.57 rg of the HyRoad results in the ball saving much more energy for the pins than the earlier rolling Optimus at 2.48. If you don't mind a suggestion, you might want to try to add a little surface to the Optimus and add a little polish to the HyRoad and try reversing the order that you use them. I think you will be much happier with the result.

[bubba809]

Yes, but if he adds some surface to the Optimus, this will make the ball roll even sooner. I know when I tried to add surface to mine (no shine) the ball rolled out and had nothing for the backend. All methods don't work for everyone.

[RobLV1]

You're missing the point. I'm suggesting adding surface to the Optimus so it will roll sooner so that he can use it first on the fresh, switching to the HyRoad as the lanes start to dry out. As it is, the two balls that he is using are working at crossed purposes: the early rolling core in the Optimus with the polished cover, and the go-long core in the HyRoad with the dull surface. These inconsistencies bring the balls too close together in my opinion, sacrificing each balls potential to add to its usefullness.

[bubba809]

No, I understood your point and was just making an observation since I have an Optimus and have experimented with surface changes--I completely understand how a low RG works. MY point was, what works for one may not work for another. Blomer has a system that is working for him.

[RobLV1]

I don't see anything in his posts that say that his "system" is working for him. I only see that he usually throws the HyRoad and "towards the end may go to the Optimus." I'm only trying to help him to understand the componants of bowling balls so that he can understand why his "system" works, or perhaps, why it doesn't. Personally I don't see a "system," I only see a preconception based on faulty logic (ie., surface is everything).

[bubba809]

By "system" I was meaning Blomer's choice and what works for him. We have discussed this due to the fact we both throw the same ball. Not everyone has the same style or techniques. I am merely trying to help Blomer and he will find a method best for him. Don't read too much into the word, "system"

[Amyers]

You're missing the point. I'm suggesting adding surface to the Optimus so it will roll sooner so that he can use it first on the fresh, switching to the HyRoad as the lanes start to dry out. As it is, the two balls that he is using are working at crossed purposes: the early rolling core in the Optimus with the polished cover, and the go-long core in the HyRoad with the dull surface. These inconsistencies bring the balls too close together in my opinion, sacrificing each balls potential to add to its usefullness.

Rob if he did this for all intents and purposes he has a Marvel S (Optimus with surface) and a Hyroad Pearl (Hyroad solid with polish). Is that really that much better than the Optimus-Hyroad solid combo. I've seen some Optimus's thrown although I haven't seen anyone using the Hyroad Solid yet (not many people throw solids on my home lanes) I do see lots of Hyroads and Hyroad Pearls. I do think that he really has two different balls that are more suited to being first out of the bag (with different looks). I really believe rather than altering the balls he should look at purchasing a different step down piece such as a Hyroad pearl or Punch Out

[RobLV1]

By "system" I was meaning Blomer's choice and what works for him. We have discussed this due to the fact we both throw the same ball. Not everyone has the same style or techniques. I am merely trying to help Blomer and he will find a method best for him. Don't read too much into the word, "system"

Sorry, but the word "system" implies some kind of logic. I differs from a routine which may or may not work for him. As I said, I'm just trying to help him to understand more about bowling balls so that, at some point, he can develop a system rather than a routine.

[RobLV1]

Rob if he did this for all intents and purposes he has a Marvel S (Optimus with surface) and a Hyroad Pearl (Hyroad solid with polish). Is that really that much better than the Optimus-Hyroad solid combo. I've seen some Optimus's thrown although I haven't seen anyone using the Hyroad Solid yet (not many people throw solids on my home lanes) I do see lots of Hyroads and Hyroad Pearls. I do think that he really has two different balls that are more suited to being first out of the bag (with different looks). I really believe rather than altering the balls he should look at purchasing a different step down piece such as a Hyroad pearl or Punch Out

We are right back to ignoring core characteristics and focusing totally on cover. Why would a HyRoad Pearl possibly be considered a "step down piece" from a HyRoad Solid when they both have the same core. The only difference between the two balls is the cover material (same material, one solid and one pearl), and the surface? In terms of the Punchout, it actually has a lower rg than the HyRoad Solid (2.55 vs. 2.57). It does have a lower differential, and a pearl cover. Again, the main difference is surface. If you want to develop an arsenal, the low rg should be the first thing that you look at to make sure that you have a base of balls that you can make surface alterations to cover the widest possible range of potential lane conditions. My own arsenal, for example currently consists of four balls: an asymmetric solid with a low rg of 2.488, a symmetric solid with a low rg of 2.489, a symmetric hybrid with a low rg of 2.536, and a symmetric solid with a low rg of 2.56. All four balls take well to surface changes which I will often make, depending on where I am going to bowl. Setting up a system based on the low rg, prevents a bowler from accidentally ending up with two balls that are brought too close together by conflicting core/cover combinations.

[bubba809]

Good luck with the Hy-Road Blomer! Keep doing what you're doing and let us know if you try a surface change. Also keep us posted on how the Optimus works in there. Hope you shoot great buddy!!



Boom!

[Amyers]

We are right back to ignoring core characteristics and focusing totally on cover. Why would a HyRoad Pearl possibly be considered a "step down piece" from a HyRoad Solid when they both have the same core. The only difference between the two balls is the cover material (same material, one solid and one pearl), and the surface? In terms of the Punchout, it actually has a lower rg than the HyRoad Solid (2.55 vs. 2.57). It does have a lower differential, and a pearl cover. Again, the main difference is surface. If you want to develop an arsenal, the low rg should be the first thing that you look at to make sure that you have a base of balls that you can make surface alterations to cover the widest possible range of potential lane conditions. My own arsenal, for example currently consists of four balls: an asymmetric solid with a low rg of 2.488, a symmetric solid with a low rg of 2.489, a symmetric hybrid with a low rg of 2.536, and a symmetric solid with a low rg of 2.56. All four balls take well to surface changes which I will often make, depending on where I am going to bowl. Setting up a system based on the low rg, prevents a bowler from accidentally ending up with two balls that are brought too close together by conflicting core/cover combinations.

I am not ignoring cores (although I do believe cover stock is more important than core by far). The Hyroad pearl or the Punch out is a step down from the Optimus 2.48 vs. 2.57 or 2.55 assuming 15lbs. I realize the core similarity between the two hyroads before I posted but I also know their is a large difference between a solid at 2000 and a polished pearl and he likes the hyroad solid I would imagine since that is what he is using most. Could he get this same effect by resurfacing the Hyroad solid yes but most of us do not have the time or the equipment to change a ball from a higher grit surface to a polished surface on a regular basis. The polished finish on either of those two balls should allow him to get through the worn down heads and mids better for bowling after the transition.

Your original post shows the problem with the logic being used here as the rg being the most important deciding factor of ball selection. He has a low rg polished ball and a high rg aggressively surface ball. do either of them make a good step down not really. The Optimus with its strong cover and early roll tendencies is better suited to start off with before transition the Hyroad solid if used after transition will most likely burn up on the drier lanes. Neither of these balls are really a step down piece because of the cover stock / surface prep of the balls not really the rg.

[RobLV1]

I am not ignoring cores (although I do believe cover stock is more important than core by far). The Hyroad pearl or the Punch out is a step down from the Optimus 2.48 vs. 2.57 or 2.55 assuming 15lbs. I realize the core similarity between the two hyroads before I posted but I also know their is a large difference between a solid at 2000 and a polished pearl and he likes the hyroad solid I would imagine since that is what he is using most. Could he get this same effect by resurfacing the Hyroad solid yes but most of us do not have the time or the equipment to change a ball from a higher grit surface to a polished surface on a regular basis. The polished finish on either of those two balls should allow him to get through the worn down heads and mids better for bowling after the transition.

Your original post shows the problem with the logic being used here as the rg being the most important deciding factor of ball selection. He has a low rg polished ball and a high rg aggressively surface ball. do either of them make a good step down not really. The Optimus with its strong cover and early roll tendencies is better suited to start off with before transition the Hyroad solid if used after transition will most likely burn up on the drier lanes. Neither of these balls are really a step down piece because of the cover stock / surface prep of the balls not really the rg.

So, why is it that you believe that cover is more important than core by far? Could it be because that's what you've always believed? If you take a high rev player who throws the ball at 20 mph, and a med/low rev player who throws the ball at 16 mph, the high rev players ball will come directly into contact with the lane 38% more than the lower rev player's ball. Logic tells us that for the lower rev/lower speed player, the resistance that a high rg provides to retain the energy in the ball is very important. Believe what you want, but realize that hanging on to outdated beliefs rather than taking the time to learn something new can only bite you in the butt in the long run.

[Amyers]

Well first off let me say I know I don't know everything and I'm here to learn as I believe most of the others on this site are also. I should not have said just cover stock I was including surface prep in that also. I do believe cores have an effect just not as important as surface and prep.

You didn't really answer the question though. It does appear that this is a instance of looking at strictly Rgs not working. Just by the numbers he has balls on the opposite ends of the spectrum Rg wize. Can't go much lower than 2.48 and 2.57 is relatively high. The problem here is the cover stocks and surface preps are bringing these balls together.

You don't feel the Optimus is a good step down from the hyroad solid. I don't either. You suggested altering the surface of both balls as a solution. I disagreed the changes you are suggesting would change both balls from what they were ment to be. I have no fear in altering surface adding a little or taking away. I'm not a fan of polishing lower grit equipment or sanding polished equipment adjusting them fine but you reach a point where it's not what they designed anymore.

The above goes double in this instance. If he had wanted a hyroad pearl he could have purchased one which is essentially what you have if you polish a hyroad solid. If he wanted a solid version of the Optimus he could have purchased a marvel s both balls were available when he bought these.

Myself as I've stated before he has two good choices for a ball to start off with. Play more squared up with the hyroad solid or play more stand left throw right with the Optimus at least that is how they would most likely work for me with what I've seen. The real problem is he needs a true step down piece.

I'm guessing he would stay storm since his other balls are from them. I suggested the punch out higher Rg than the Optimus slightly lower than the hyroad solid but with the polish and lower flare the ball should be more controllable than the hyroad solid on transitional conditions. Does this not make sense?

The other ball I suggested was the hyroad pearl now with this one it is thinner ice but from my personal experience the difference between a solid and a pearl is pretty significant. The pearl would allow him to get through the heads and mids on transitioning conditions. Not my first choice but if your staying storm those look the most likely step downs I see unless your going tropical breeze but that seems pretty excessive.

Am I missing something? Is there some other better option here that I'm not seeing within these confines?

[RobLV1]

Actually your thought about the Marvel S and the HyRoad (original hybrid version) would be spot on. Unfortunately, I don't think he's about to go out and replace the HyRoad Solid and the Optimus which is why I suggested altering the surfaces. Keep in mind that it could very well be that the original intention of both balls (HyRoad Solid and Optimus) is to appeal to those individuals who still believe that cover material and surface is everything, so they put a polished pearl on an early rolling ball, and a dull solid cover on a ball that is meant to go long. I really don't understand how the manufacturers decide on the OOB finish other than coming up with something that will appeal to their target consumer. I would still like to see his reaction to putting surface on the Optimus and polishing the HyRoad. I think he would be very pleasantly surprised when he reverses the order and starts with the Optimus and goes to the HyRoad when the lanes break down.