Can't get new ball under control

[axslinger99]

So, after about a 15 year lay-off from bowling, I decided to start again. I had been going with my GF for about the last 2 or 3 months regularly...once a week or so. I had been using house balls and did okay. I know, house balls are an embarrassment but I didn't want to just run out and buy a new ball before I was sure that I was into bowling again.

I was regularly hitting 145-175 with a 195, 203 and 223 sprinkled in there. One of the houses we go to has some old, retired black rubber Brunswick balls. I found one that evidently had been used by a fingertip bowler and it actually fit my had pretty good. It was loose as far as the hole size but the span was good. I would find that ball every time I went to that house because it felt good. My style is stroker. 15 MPH tops but I've done 5 baggers and have felt good using that ball.

I decided that I wanted to stick with bowling and consider a league so I did a little research and bought a new ball. I got a Hammer Absolut curve. To make a long story short, I now struggle to throw a 175 and out of about 15 games, that's the best I've done. I've thrown a few that were barely over 100. The ball is drilled for fingertip with inserts and no thumb insert. Initially, the thumb was too tight and almost ripped my arm out of the socket on one throw. I had the pro shop open it up a bit but I still can't get a clean release. Even though my thumb goes in easy enough, I can't get it to release cleanly. The side of my thumb is rubbing and forming a callous. Sometimes I loft the ball because it's not coming off my thumb cleanly. I spoke with the guy who drilled it and he seemed extremely knowledgeable about the geometry and placement of the holes, etc. He explained about pin placement, core, tracking, etc. and was very helpful. But, I haven't been back since he opened it up a little for me.

Looking back, I had a Hammer Blue back in "the day" and I had similar issues; brand new ball but the thumb had to be opened up and then taped so I could throw it properly. To me, it's irritating to buy a new ball, drill it oversize then tape it so it fits...shouldn't it fit right the first time? I'm not really sure where to go next. Any ideas?

Thanks!

[RobLV1]

There are two issues here. The first is easy: get a thumb slug put in the ball. It's much smoother material, and it should solve your hang-up problems. The second issue is a little more painful. You went from throwing non-reactive bowling balls with conventional grips to throwing a very aggressive heavy oil ball with fingertip grips. This is sort of like learning to ride a tricycle and hopping into a NASCAR race car and expecting to compete. You have two options: either buy another entry level reactive resin ball and save the Hammer for later, or trade in the Hammer to get that entry level ball.

P.S. - whoever sold you that Absolute Curve, if he knew your situation, had only one thing on his mind: make as much money off of you as possible. I'd probably refrain from buying anything else from that shop for the next 50 years minimum!

[bobforsaken]

Hi Axslinger99. I'm sure some more seasoned bowlers will have more value to add, but I believe its impossible for the thumb to be drilled for a perfect fit. Drill bits are Round and Thumbs are not. Beyond that, your thumb will swell and shrink with weather/salt/bowling etc. For over a month my thumb was taped just to my liking and this past weekend I had to take 4-5 pieces all out in order to get a clean release, for whatever reason.

There are other solutions to taping like getting an Interchangeable Thumb ( like VISE IT)... but opening up the hole and using tape is pretty much the standard solution.

[bobforsaken]

The second issue is a little more painful. You went from throwing non-reactive bowling balls with conventional grips to throwing a very aggressive heavy oil ball with fingertip grips. This is sort of like learning to ride a tricycle and hopping into a NASCAR race car and expecting to compete. You have two options: either buy another entry level reactive resin ball and save the Hammer for later, or trade in the Hammer to get that entry level ball.

P.S. - whoever sold you that Absolute Curve, if he knew your situation, had only one thing on his mind: make as much money off of you as possible. I'd probably refrain from buying anything else from that shop for the next 50 years minimum!


I have to disagree with Rob on this one. First Axslinger99 mentioned he was using a old retired rubber ball with a finger tip grip. He may or may not have been throwing it straight but it sounds like he is at least comfortable throwing a finger tip grip. But as someone who just learned to hook a bowling ball in May, there is a big learning curve from playing straight and bowling with a hook. However, I don't think that having strong equipment is an impairment. I started with an Ebonite Cyclone and in very short order (less than 1 month got a IQ Fusion). I noticed no difference because of my low rev rate as a beginner. Because of that I needed (still need) stronger equipment than the condition calls for.

[RobLV1]

I have to disagree with Rob on this one. First Axslinger99 mentioned he was using a old retired rubber ball with a finger tip grip. He may or may not have been throwing it straight but it sounds like he is at least comfortable throwing a finger tip grip. But as someone who just learned to hook a bowling ball in May, there is a big learning curve from playing straight and bowling with a hook. However, I don't think that having strong equipment is an impairment. I started with an Ebonite Cyclone and in very short order (less than 1 month got a IQ Fusion). I noticed no difference because of my low rev rate as a beginner. Because of that I needed (still need) stronger equipment than the condition calls for.

So you went from an Ebonite Cyclose and in less than 1 month got an IQ Tour Fusion, and you think that this means axslinger99, with a 15 mph ball speed should have no problem with a ball that is designed specifically for heavy oil which will roll out at the arrows with his ball speed? The IQ Tour Fusion is a symmetrically-cored ball with a low rg, and a low differential. It is not meant for heavy oil. The Absolute Curve is.

[bowl1820]

Hi Axslinger99. I'm sure some more seasoned bowlers will have more value to add, but I believe its impossible for the thumb to be drilled for a perfect fit. Drill bits are Round and Thumbs are not.

Depending on the definition of "perfect", you can get a good fit.

My fit is great, the ball comes off clean, no callouses, blisters etc.

As for the round hole, yes most bowlers should have a Oval hole which a good proshop can do or you can get a Oval insert (I use a vinyl oval insert)

[axslinger99]

Thanks for the replies. Bob is right, I'm comfortable with a fingertip grip but I should note that that old Brunswick was drilled large so I had to squeeze it a bit. However, due to the span of the holes, I was able to use fingertip grip. I threw it with a nice, lazy curve that hit the pocket at perhaps 3 degrees. I know how to provide lift using my fingers, etc. But due to the old technology, it wasn't a "killer" hook. I believe I could throw this new ball if it would just let go of my hand cleanly.

With regard to Rob's response...I actually did a lot of research on the ball at bowlingball.com and made my selection after doing a lot of comparisons. The fact is, this could be a $70 plastic ball but if it's not releasing cleanly, it wouldn't make any difference. I'm comfortable adjusting on the lane based on the reaction of the ball. The issue is, I can't even throw a shot that feels good, never mind where the ball ends up. Somebody had said, "if you can tell when it leaves your thumb, you're doing it wrong", so my guess is that I need to adjust the thumb hole but the question is, how? Which way? How much? I don't want to end up "squeezing" the ball.

Thanks again...

[axslinger99]

So you went from an Ebonite Cyclose and in less than 1 month got an IQ Tour Fusion, and you think that this means axslinger99, with a 15 mph ball speed should have no problem with a ball that is designed specifically for heavy oil which will roll out at the arrows with his ball speed? The IQ Tour Fusion is a symmetrically-cored ball with a low rg, and a low differential. It is not meant for heavy oil. The Absolute Curve is.

To clarify, I think we can leave the reaction out of the equation; my issue is a clean release and roll. I'll deal with targeting once can get it to leave my hand cleanly.

[bowl1820]

The side of my thumb is rubbing and forming a callous.

That's sounds like it may be a pitch problem. but can be related to hole size/oval also

go to this page and find the picture that shows where the rubbing is and it will give you the common cause for it.

http://www.jayhawkbowling.com/Pro_s_Corner/Fitting_Tips/fitting.html

Rob's suggestion to use a thumb slug is good, a lot of bowlers skin find the coverstock too tacky and their skin drags on it. (That's why I went to using oval vinyl inserts).

Slugging it also can make it easy for making pitch changes.

getting a grip just right can take sometime, with getting the pitches tweaked just right and so forth.

[axslinger99]

So you went from an Ebonite Cyclose and in less than 1 month got an IQ Tour Fusion, and you think that this means axslinger99, with a 15 mph ball speed should have no problem with a ball that is designed specifically for heavy oil which will roll out at the arrows with his ball speed? The IQ Tour Fusion is a symmetrically-cored ball with a low rg, and a low differential. It is not meant for heavy oil. The Absolute Curve is.

Actually, the Absolut Curve is Medium-Heavy oil which is 191 on bowlingball.com's "perfect" scale of 5-300 whereas the IQ Tour Fusion has a "perfect" scale of 214 so it's "hooking" ability is considerable higher than the Hammer. I realize I'm the amateur here...don't get me wrong, not second guessing anybody, just pointing this out.

[bobforsaken]

So you went from an Ebonite Cyclose and in less than 1 month got an IQ Tour Fusion, and you think that this means axslinger99, with a 15 mph ball speed should have no problem with a ball that is designed specifically for heavy oil which will roll out at the arrows with his ball speed? The IQ Tour Fusion is a symmetrically-cored ball with a low rg, and a low differential. It is not meant for heavy oil. The Absolute Curve is.

What I'm saying is as a stroker I went from a Medium-Light oil Ball to a Medium-Heavy oil ball and due to a low rev rate I noticed very little difference on a THS. I had to take my Medium-Light oil Cyclone and polish it up just to notice a difference between it an the Fusion and I'd probably need a heavy oil ball just to get the ball to hook on actual Medium-Heavy conditions. I'm a stroker with probably similar ball speed and I require stronger equipment than the condition calls for.. since we don't know what kind of Revs he's getting on the ball (other than the fact it isn't much because he lacks a clean release due to thumb sticking) I think we shouldn't automatically assume his equipment is too strong for what he needs. I certainly don't think he should automatically go out an buy an entry level ball because we assume once his thumb issue is solved he's going to have problems keeping the ball on the right side of the head pin.

[bowl1820]

Actually, the Absolut Curve is Medium-Heavy oil which is 191 on bowlingball.com's "perfect" scale of 5-300 whereas the IQ Tour Fusion has a "perfect" scale of 214 so it's "hooking" ability is considerable higher than the Hammer. I realize I'm the amateur here...don't get me wrong, not second guessing anybody, just pointing this out.

just so you know The Perfect Scale, it isn't totally perfect it's ratings can be inaccurate. It can show some wide differences in some balls and if you drilled all those balls the same, you wouldn't see much more than a board of difference between them.

[RobLV1]

Thanks, Al. Please permit me to explain a little further. I'm really not too familiar with the Perfect Scale, however, if the perfect scale for the Absolute Curve is 191 and the IQ Tour Fusion is 214, then whoever is coming up with these numbers is smoking some really funny cigarettes. Consider:

The Absolute Curve has an rg of 2.48 and a differential of 0.048, and the Fusion has an rg of 2.49 and a differential of 0.029. The Fusion has a hybrid cover material with an OOB finish of 1500 grit polished, and the Absolute Curve has an OOB finish that is very similar if not identical. The Absolute Curve has a cover material that is called H-150 Crossover which, I assume is also a hybrid.. The Fusion has a symmetrical core, while the core of the Absolute Curve is not defined, but it sure looks asymmetrical to me. Taking into account that the surfaces are similar if not the same, the cover materials are both hyrids, the Absolute Curve has a lower rg that translates into an earlier roll, and the Fusion has a much, much lower differential which translates into less flare and a smoother reaction, how can the Fusion possibly have a higher hook rating than the Absolute Curve? It's rediculous, unless of course, the perfect scale is based on someone's personal assessment of the reactions of the two balls that couldn't possibly be colored by personal biases.

[Amyers]

To clarify, I think we can leave the reaction out of the equation; my issue is a clean release and roll. I'll deal with targeting once can get it to leave my hand cleanly.

First what you probably should try is to adjust the pitch on the thumb hole. This caused me some issues when I first came back to bowling. You most likely have also gotten used to gripping with your thumb due to the improper fit of the house ball and the fact that it is just easy to do. Something's that have helped me with my issues with this changing pitches, oval thumb, urathane slug in the thumb hole, roby's skin patch, and concentrating on feeling my thumb nail touch the back of the hole as I'm starting off.

As far as the ball goes that's a lot of ball things are different now and if your using the wrong ball on the wrong conditions or throwing it the wrong way you will struggle. That ball is intended for heavy oil so that basically means you're only going to have the correct conditions for the first game or so of leagues at best for that ball. To maximize its use you will need to keep it inside the oil line as much as possible. Standing 35 across the arrows at 15-20 keep the breakpoint of the hook inside of ten also just realize your going to need a less aggressive ball to ball down to and for practice.

I have a Rotogrip asylum I rarley find conditions outside of league where I can throw it confortably and its a symmetric med-hvy ball. Most of all best of luck hope some of this helps.

[bowl1820]

The Absolute Curve has a cover material that is called H-150 Crossover which, I assume is also a hybrid, .............while the core of the Absolute Curve is not defined,

Rob, According to BTM the absolute curve is a Reactive Hybrid and the Fat Max core is a Symmetrical core.


I think where the Perfect Scale gets threw off, is that part of it is calculated using the manufacturer's hook rating's to arrive at their number and since the different manufacturer's use different scales. It throws off the perfect scale rating.

[RobLV1]

Thanks for the clarification. One thing about both symmetrical and asymmetrical cores is how their overall shape affects the ball reaction. The Fusion's core is simplicity personafied which results in the smooth reaction. The Fat Max core may be technically symmetrical (it would be nice if they just came out and said it), but the form of its symmetry is much more complex. It's kind of like Hammer's Gas Mask core that has been so successful in all of the Black Widow and Taboo balls is asymmetrical, but the protrusions on either side make it kind of symmetrically asymmetrical if that makes any sense at all.

As for manufacturers hook ratings, all I can say is that I have a Toyota Corolla that can shut down any Corvette on the planet. Any takers?

[Stormed1]

You need to take their perfect scale with a grain of salt. I have seen their rating on some balls to be way off compared to other balls. I would definatly go with a thumb slug or insert as many times the tackiness of the cover stock will grab onto your thumb causing the hangup

[axslinger99]

Assuming this ball is going to hook as strong as everybody suggests, would you all suggest I have it polished to lessen that?

[Amyers]

Adding polish will delay the reaction but not lessen the amount movement on the ball if anything it increases the amount of backend movement. Increasing surface would maybe lessen the amount of backend reaction but would require even more oil to keep the ball from burning up which is more what everyone who has commented on the ball reaction is more worried about especially with a lower ball speed.

You can adjust for the amount of hook but you can't out bowl a bad ball reaction.

[RobLV1]

Adding polish will delay the reaction but not lessen the amount movement on the ball if anything it increases the amount of backend movement. Increasing surface would maybe lessen the amount of backend reaction but would require even more oil to keep the ball from burning up which is more what everyone who has commented on the ball reaction is more worried about especially with a lower ball speed.

You can adjust for the amount of hook but you can't out bowl a bad ball reaction.

Well stated. I remember when the First Blood came out: very aggressive ball with some polish. I watched as a bowler in league left more pocket eight-ten splits than I've ever seen for three weeks until he finally figured out that the ball wouldn't work for him. Putting polish on an aggressive ball is like putting racing tires on a dump truck. What you end up with is a vehicle that is no good for hauling and no good for racing. Surface/core inconsistencies tend to work for very specific types of bowlers. An aggressive ball with polish will sometimes work for rev dominant players who lack a little bit of ball speed, while less aggressive balls with lots of surface will sometimes work for speed dominant bowlers with lower rev rates.

[classygranny]

Back to the release issue. Here is something I would suggest. Next time out, try and do one-step drills. If you can release the ball without any difficulty, it probably isn't the fit, pitch or size. This would determine that your timing is a bit off causing your hand position to be off and thus making your thumb hang in the ball. Pretty easy exercise to do and you can really tell what is wrong with the release.

[axslinger99]

I think it's under control. I took the ball back to the center that drilled it and explained my situation. He noted that the fingers were a little tight so he went up one size on the inserts. He opened the thumb hole up a touch in the area that was rubbing and getting sore. The gentleman was kind enough to observe me for 2 full games and coach me at no cost. I rolled a 155, 203 and a 191. I'm quite pleased with the results.

If anybody is from AZ, Rusty at the Brunswick Zone at Kyrene lanes in Chandler was the individual who helped me and I couldn't be more pleased. The ball responded to my style well and didn't over-react at all, unless I wanted it to. I've never had a strong hook so I think, for my style, this ball may turn out to be a good choice.

Thanks for everybody's input...I'm sure I'll be back as I progress.

[rico]

ax,

you may wish to do one of two things to help your thumb release more cleanly from the bowling ball....1st, ask an experienced bowling instructor to watch you deliver the ball.....there may be a problem in your release technique which causes you to hang onto the ball and irritate your thumb?....next, experiment with a wrist support device to help prop up your wrist and encourage the thumb to leave the ball slightly before your fingers....a lot of people resist wearing a wrist device but, quite honestly, would benefit greatly if they were to find one which is comfortable and help the thumb escape the ball quickly......another thought is that maybe you are curling the knuckle of your thumb inside the thumb hole slightly which will prohibit your thumb from exiting the ball smoothly and on time....try placing the nail of your thumb to the back of the hole as you swing and deliver the ball....sometimes it is a simple trick which can get you going????.....hope this helps.....

[CaptainXeroid]

Last year I returned to bowling after a similar layoff, and the learning curve to the new equipment has kicked my butt at times! After a bit of trial & error and working with my ball driller, I think I'm getting a handle on it. I started out picking up a used White Dot & Slate Grey U-Dot, and then about a dozen resin balls to try & figure out how the game have changed.

One problem I've had with fit is that the conventional wisdom is to make the thumb hole a bit big and have the bowler add tape. My thumb SHRINKS every time I bowl, so a few shots in I'm squeezing it...even with a whole stack of tape. My thumb also comes out of the ball very quickly, even with under palm pitch, so if I use finger grips I wind up grabbing the ball at the bottom of my swing.

Proper fit may not make me a PBA star, but bad fit was making me look like amateur night.

[Hammer]

Things that will cause a thumb to hang up. A thumbhole that is too small. A thumb knuckle that rises up inside the thumbhole as the swing is coming down usually because of a muscled swing or the wrist breaking back as the ball gets closer to the release area. Another problem is when entering the release area your hand doesn't stay behind the ball and comes up the side of the ball to the top which will cause a spinner. Your thumb will usually hang up with this kind of release. The only way your thumb will come out of the ball correctly is if you stay behind the ball going through the release zone and you keep your thumb flat inside the thumbhole and not let the thumb knuckle raise by gripping the ball harder on the downswing.

[foreverincamo]

I've had thumb issues this year too, after a similar layoff from bowling . I also recommend a thumb slug. The great thing about those is you can always rip it out and try another type of pitch change instantly. One thing I didn't see anyone else suggest is the use of extremely tight finger inserts. I use them to let that tight fit take the weight of the ball off my thumb, and also allow me to relax my hand as I swing the ball behind me. I am on my third thumb slug in my one ball, and it's tighter than ever, yet I get the ball off my hand as clean as possible because I'm not squeezing it at all .