What makes a Pro Bowler better than an Amateur bowler??

[Aslan]

Okay, so there's been a lot of talk bouncing around about the future of the PBA, the future of sport bowling, and the reasons for the decline. Thats a separate topic.

But one thing that comes up here and there is regarding how the game has become easier, scores higher, equipment better...again, a separate topic.

But one thing I started thinking about is, what makes a "pro" better than the best guy/gal you bowl with in your leagues??

For me...in my 2nd league there was a guy that would be a threat to roll a perfect game once a night...but you didn't look at him and think "pro". And when I started bowling on sport patterns, sure, there were 1-3 guys that looked very good...but they never really averaged over 200...the sport patterns making them look "human". But then I joined a more competitive house league and saw a guy bowl that was just amazing. My new teammates said he has so many 300-games he doesn't really care anymore and I guess he won over $3,000 at sweeps last season. As I watched him bowl, it was apparent to me, he wasn't even really trying. If he strung a few strikes together he'd focus a bit more...but he didn't really care. I'm sure he'll just drift through the season...pad his handicap (currently 0) and when sweeps comes along and money can be won...THATs when he'll show up and actually "try".

But, as I annoyingly watched him bowl...and as I even more annoyingly watched me bowl like a toilet fly...I got to thinking, "What separates that guy WHEN HE TRIES from a PBA Pro bowler?" "Is the gap really that small that this bowler simply would need to be motivated and buy a PBA card and he'd be a "Pro"?"

Now, there's stuff all over the internet about gaps between pros and amateurs...varying by sport. I think most people would agree the gap in bowling is smaller than most other sports. It's less athletic for one thing. The risk of injury is lower. So even if the gap between pro and amateur is large; it's likely not as large as in baseball or football or tennis or ice hockey, etc...

As a sidenote...I can say with experience that the gap in bowling is nowhere near the gap in ice hockey. I played against college level players and players in lower level of Juniors...even high school players. And the difference between one of the better adult league hockey players and a player in juniors or D1 college...much less the AHL, IHL, NHL...is tremendously huge. I've watched guys who couldn't make a junior squad skate circles around some of the best adults I've ever played with...and these guys weren't GOOD ENOUGH to even make the team of a junior, college, or semi-pro team. But I digress...

The real question is, what is it that a PRO does that an AMATEUR isn't able to do or do consistently??? Here are some common answers and some answers that I've found throughout the web to serve as a catalyst for thought/discussion:

1) A USBC/Kegal video released not too long ago cites "accuracy" as the biggest difference based on their studies. They claim that an amateur when asked to hit a board repeatedly will miss by something like 1.5 boards on average. Yet a pro will miss by 0 to 0.5 boards. Those numbers may be a little off...but the general idea is it is accuracy that is the biggest difference.

2) Repeatability. Bowling isn't just about making a good shot...it's about making that SAME shot over and over and over again with little variation. The same steps, the same backswing, the same release....everything the same.

3) Timing. Most experts will say that timing is THE most important part of a bowler's game. While it's linked with repeatability (above)...is it that the pro's simply have that much better timing than amateurs?

4) Rev Rate. Sure, there are strokers, tweeners, crankers, and 2-handers in the Pros. But watch a "stroker" in the pros and see how fast his ball is going and what the rev rate is. A "PBA stroker" might be more like an amateur cranker. A rev rate around 280rpm and a ball speed around 18-19mph. Most pros average 20-21mph shots. At that speed, an increased rev rate is essential or the ball simply won't have time to make the turn.

5) Practice. Malcolm Gladwell (his books are horribly boring by the way) is famous for coming up with the "10,000 hour rule" where you need to practice something for 10,000 hours to be an expert at it. Is it that amateur bowlers don't PRACTICE. Most guys I play with on leagues NEVER practice. They simply bowl in 1-2 leagues...maybe go bowling with the family once a month if that. They don't "practice". Some guys bowl in a league almost every night...they don't have TIME to practice. Is THAT the difference? Pete Weber said in the 10 years before he joined the PBA, he practiced 6 hours a day every day. Thats 21,900 hours of practice.

6) Luck? There are a lot of famous poker players that just simply got lucky. They won a big tournament and people knew their name and suddenly they got offered sponsorships and started showing up on TV. Can a bowler just win a big tournament, get a name, then ride that train? Are there really excellent bowlers out there that just never hit that #1 spot and are thus still unknowns?

So, if it's ONE thing...if you narrowed it down to primarily ONE thing...what is IT? Think of some of the guys you bowl with that are clearly excellent at this game...so many 300-games they don't count them anymore...they can't tell ya how many 11-in-a-rows...maybe 1 or more 800 series. Maybe they participate in the USBC Open or are bronze/silver/gold level coaches or own an alley or pro shop. Why aren't THEY participating in the Summer King of Swing or WSOB or Masters?? What is that gap? Or maybe it's a former pro...used to be great...now they just give lessons or have taken up golf or opened a business. What did they LOSE? Sure...injuries can be one of the things...but what about former, retired pros that aren't injured?? What are they missing that they can't get back to compete with Rash and Belmonte? Why can PDW and Duke and WRW still do it?

Not meant as another thread where we bash the idea of amateurs being "pro level" and point out the difference in house and sport patterns. I play on both and understand the humility that comes with sport patterns. But what is IT in terms of the actual physical or technical game that amateurs in general are lacking? You can even think of it in terms of our own little community here. Mudpuppy qualified #1 in the AVI Challenge in Vegas...looked almost unbeatable! But then fell apart in the finals. If he can just fix whatever went wrong in the Finals...can he quit his day job? He looked DAMN good in qualifying! Do we need to see him on a sport patter in order to tell?? Or is it OBVIOUS that he's not a pro and never will be? What about VDubtx? Or MWhite? Both have virtually 0 handicap in the VBT...averages well over 200. What are they "missing" thats keeping them off the tour? VDub bowls the Open...both I think have bowled sport pattern leagues. How close ARE they? What would they need to do to make that happen??

In order to answer...we need to know what IT is? Is IT the GIFT? If so, and Iceman has IT....why is he NOT going to Vegas for the WSOB later this month??? Not to quote "In Living Colour"...80s reference...but "WHAT IS IT!!!

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: Do you know a good bowler? How do you know he's "good" and it's not just that you suck?

[Amyers]

Its a combination of all of the above and one big 1 that you left out $$$$$. Very few of these guys have all of what you mentioned above and the ability to play consistently across the different patterns. Even if they do are they really better off being on the PBA Tour or Bowling in smaller local and regional tournaments? Money wise I think your chances of making a living is better doing the local and regional tournaments and many of them have higher payouts than PBA tour stops.

Very few have the physical side of the game speed/revs/accuracy then you add the mental side of the game and the low payouts time away from family why would you really want to. The top 5 guys on tour do ok but its not great if your below that your losing money and basically doing it for the love of the game.

[Aslan]

I have heard the arguement that folks can get a better payout by bowling regional amateur tournaments.

There IS a downside to that though. PBA folks essentially get much of their entry fees, equipment, etc... through sponsorships. Now, they usually have to pay back much of that from their winnings. BUT...if they don't win...they just lose the difference. In those big amateur tournaments, you foot the entire bill (which can be in the $200-$900 range) and the equipment and all the other misc. costs. Now, if you win, you could make more $$$. But if you lose, you're in the negative.

It's a lot like Poker. The sponsored players don't get paid, they just don't have to put up their own money to play. If they win, they often times will have to give a portion to their sponsor(s) to reimburse...but if they lose, they played for free.

Thats why to save bowling we really need someone to merge the March Madness idea with the reality TV concept. Open the tournament up to a couple sanctioned bowlers from every center in the US. And make the journey to the Finals a sort of weekly reality show. The TV revenue would likely help pay alot of the costs of the participants, the sponsors would get more exposure and thus be more interested. And the payouts for those final say, 4 spots would be significant ($1M +) that it would generate serious interest from the elite bowlers.

I also am not too "sold" on the amateur tournaments like ABT and abta. They make it sound like there are HUGE payoffs and it's handicap and it's relatively afffordable. But then when you actually start looking over things in more detail...the max payouts require you to win every sidepot and brackets and bowl with a certain company's ball and wear a certain jersey, etc... And then you look at the entry fee more carefully and by the time you're entered into every sidepot and bracket and doubles and singles...you're out a big chunk of change and not likely to recover it.

Thats why I'm reluctant to enter those tournaments. The one I entered, a smaller one, what I thought would be $80-$120 total ended up being about $300. And realistically despite my handicap I had very little chance of success. I also am not sure I'm 100% confident in how they calculate handicaps. Some of the people handling the handicaps were also entered in the tournament and the one gal that was leading the field came in with an average lower than mine yet threw a 730-740 series and when I looked her up on USBC...the year before she had an average about 10 pins higher than mine.

[MICHAEL]

In order to answer...we need to know what IT is? Is IT the GIFT? If so, and Iceman has IT....why is he NOT going to Vegas for the WSOB later this month??? Not to quote "In Living Colour"...80s reference...but "WHAT IS IT!!!


The reason ICEMAN is not going to Vegas is this! I am OLD!!! FRICKEN OLD!!! I got started in bowling when I turned 62! Give me a break!!
I am still a newbie! to bowling, but will never get any younger! My reflexes and movements are not even close to what they were even in my
50's!

I have had only one coached lesson, or is it lesion, lol ! But from the very beginning I was rolling now and then big games, and series. I have and can show the trophies from my first two years of non sanctioned bowling,,, 298, 290, 750, 725 series,,, how did I do it??? Had nothing to do with coaching, but having a certain degree of the gift has to be the only reason. Last year, no matter how easy some think it is to roll a 300, I had two in 6 months,,, my last one with a 780 series.

I have my moments, games and series,, but I am OLD!! I have been told by 5 doctors that I have RA/Lupus, broke my neck and back while doing my profession putting up buildings ect, as an Iron Worker. Nerve damage to feet,, bowled in sandals for 3 years,, but now use bowling shoes. That lesson from Rob has me doing 3 things different, which paid off big the other day on the wood lanes in Plattsburg. Had my first 600 plus series on WOOD!

Iceman has been told that he has a gift in regards to bowling,,, don't know how many have come up to me and said,,,
Wow I have been bowling for 30 years and no 300's! I had, and do have almost 300s now and then... 279s,,, 268s ect!

I don't believe you can luck out and Roll a 300,,, or like my last one role a 300 first game, then a 216, then 264! If only I would have had better carry in my second game I would have had both a 300 and 800! 20 fricken pins from a double ring.. and almost two 300s. I started that 3rd game with 8 strikes, then a ringing ten pin...... LOL

Yes I would have to say without a doubt that I have some degree of gift... what else can it be attributed too?

Years of bowling???? NO ,, I am still just 5 years into the sport and less then that sanctioned bowling.
Coaching,,, NO,,, only had one lesson, and almost broke my leg trying out a different delivery.

What keeps me from having a 220 average is maybe age, and being inconsistent! I can, like Rob says bowl up a STORM, or I can be very average!

I do thank Jesus every day for the Gift,,, I pray that Aslan will be given the gift too! If he would JUST clean UP his ACT, maybe that prayer would be answered.

But I am working on it! http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii19/emjohnson1/Prayingforyou.gif (http://media.photobucket.com/user/emjohnson1/media/Prayingforyou.gif.html)

I want a 220 average, and 800 before I burn out!! LOL I feel another 300 will happen this fall... that deadly aim is one hell of a ball in Iceman's hand!! It was made for me!! LOL

Even though my two 300s last year were with very different balls, The IQ pearl and the Virtual Gravity nano!



I have a lot to learn, but fighting the reality of aging is a full time battle! I will not give up until I hit that 800!

I did purchase a GIFT Certificate for you Aslan! HOPE IT HELPS!!
http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy225/THEMAIDSHOMESERVICES/gift.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/THEMAIDSHOMESERVICES/media/gift.jpg.html)

[Aslan]

The reason ICEMAN is not going to Vegas is this! I am OLD!!! FRICKEN OLD!!! I got started in bowling when I turned 62! Give me a break!!
I am still a newbie! to bowling, but will never get any younger! My reflexes and movements are not even close to what they were even in my
50's!

So I think the cliff notes version is that while Iceman has the "gift", he does not have the time nor youth on his side. That would imply that the difference between an amateur and a pro is related to age and/or some type of athleticism.

Now, maybe thats the case. But if so, why so many bowlers that are overweight? Mallot? Page? Belmo to a lesser degree. Stewart. McClellann. And why isn't Terrell Owens better. That dude is about as athletic as it gets.

[MICHAEL]

So I think the cliff notes version is that while Iceman has the "gift", he does not have the time nor youth on his side. That would imply that the difference between an amateur and a pro is related to age and/or some type of athleticism.

Now, maybe thats the case. But if so, why so many bowlers that are overweight? Mallot? Page? Belmo to a lesser degree. Stewart. McClellann. And why isn't Terrell Owens better. That dude is about as athletic as it gets.

NOT SO MUCH AGE ALONE, but the RA/lupus, that I have seemed to conquer, even though doctors said it COULDEN"T BE DONE, and the old war injuries related to putting up Iron! Broken neck, herniated disk in lower back,,, nerve damage from back injury that causes tingling and pain in feet. If you remember I were sandals year around do the uncomfortable feelings I have in my feet,,,, YOU MIGHT SAY the "The agony of de-feet"! LOL

Hey Its getting better too, I am a work in progress in regards to health issues that I attack all Naturally! I don't, and won't even take a aspirin!

There are MANY other ways to relive pain, and one I use a lot is MSM! Google it!

My point is, NOT YOUTH so much, as health!

Iceman like you played college level Sports including Track, and Football, at William Jewell College in Liberty Missouri. Yes I played football from 7 grade thorough 3 years of Football in College. Football can, and does take its toll on the body, even though you might be a SUPER HERO!!

Readers Digest version of Iceman thoughts: Health issues along with age can have a huge bearing on many qualities that effect a HIGH LEVEL of bowling. Not an EXCUSE, but a reality.

I am not saying I would trade my problems for your Sponge Bob like body,,,, but lets just say I am a work in progress in regards to health issues!
Getting stronger, and better everyday as my knowledge of WHAT causes most of our ailments grows!!

YOU ARE what you put into your body! Think about it before you eat the crap they call food in this country. There is a reason whey we rank so low in health, (somewhere around 34th), yet spend more then all the others in medical care, and treatment! Go Organic,,, stay away form all forms of soda's, use Stevia as a sweetener, NO SUGER..... Drink Pure water without Fluoride... just as a starter!

Our AMA, and FDA, are not there for your protection, as much as they are there to protect corporate interest! That is a FACT!

[Aslan]

Then thats even more simplistic. The different between a pro and amateur is "health"? I don't think so. I know lots of healthy people and most of them run marathons (but don't necessarily win them) and I don't think any bowl that well.

[MICHAEL]

Then thats even more simplistic. The different between a pro and amateur is "health"? I don't think so. I know lots of healthy people and most of them run marathons (but don't necessarily win them) and I don't think any bowl that well.

NO,,, damn it your missing my point! The Gift is what it is!! You have it or your don't! But there are degrees of the gift!

My bowling gift are things that made me a good iron worker, walking the high Iron,,, GREAT BALANCE,,, Extreme Focus,,, and strength. These 3 things have helped me a BUNCH in bowling!

The Gift can be One of a number of things that assists in the sport of bowling! There are many other things that help and create the term Gifted in regards to bowling, but you need to find them yourself grasshopper!

A shot-putter, or even Olympic weight lifter might look Fat and out of shape, but it doesn't hurt their championship levels of competition. Weight in bowling, when younger especially does not seem to effect high scores on the gifted bowlers you mentioned. Lets face it, bowling does not require a high level of physical fitness. Being heavy does not HELP a bowler in anyway, and the good bowlers you mentioned that are overweight, would be just as good, if not maybe even better if they were more physically fit.

But bowing does require a number of things alone with the ( Gift). Just what is the gift? Its just that, a gift, a number of mental, and physical combinations that give some people the edge in this Great Sport of Bowling! Nothing simple about (The Gift),,, but unlike practice, you either have it, or you don't. NOT SAYING that a person can't improve THEIR level of bowling through coaching and practice, but NOTHING REPLACES THE GIFT!

I gave you a GIFT certificate in an earlier thread,,, go cash it in!!!! Then wait for the MAGIC!!

[Aslan]

Thats depressing.

So an amateur player can't work and sweat and grind and dedicate themselves to someday reach the highest level? It's just simply a gift vs. no gift equation??

And why isn't anyone else ringing in?? This topic is way way way more interesting than the other craptastic threads. Do I have to change the title to "What ball should I buy" to get participation??

[fortheloveofbowling]

Sure, with hard work and help and trying to understand different ways of playing the game. You have to find what works for you that can result in a game that is competitive. If a person has hit a wall scoring wise and continues to practice and practice the same game you will find your progress will be slow. Amateur bowlers have to be willing to learn and experiment with different things and listen and watch bowlers that are at a higher level. And yes there such a thing as the GIFT. Probably the 2 greatest players of all time had that gift, walter ray williams and earl anthony. Walter ray did not take the game seriously until after college and correct me if i am wrong but unbelievably earl did not start bowling regularly until his early 20's and did not win until his early 30's. After all of that rambling the point is this is a easy game and a hard game. You can find success now and again and then have no clue what you are doing the next. Top level bowlers and they are not all on tour have a level of experience, confidence, and knowledge that comes with TIME.

[J Anderson]

And why isn't anyone else ringing in?? This topic is way way way more interesting than the other craptastic threads. Do I have to change the title to "What ball should I buy" to get participation??

Sorry Aslan, but I was at a retreat and had no internet access from Friday until now.

I know and have bowled against a number of people who are technically professional bowlers. They are card carrying members of the PBA. Most of them at least occasionally compete in PBA regionals and some still have hopes of making the national tour.
So what separates these bowlers from the nationally known pros?
One part is mental. I'm not sure exactly what it is but I'm sure that willingness to adapt to the lane and the ability to anticipate changes in the lane conditions are involved. I have seen friends throw a few perfect strikes and be convinced that they have found "the line". They then throw progressively worse games because their line requires that the ball be exactly on spot, exactly the same speed and rotation to strike.

Commitment; How much of regular life are you willing to give up? How much time are you willing to spend away from your friends and family to compete on tour? How much are you willing to spend on having the right balls in your arsenal, practice games, coaching?

I'll probably come up with some more ideas later.

[foreverincamo]

To me, a pro dedicated an enormous amount of time honing his craft. There are three aspects to training for a pro bowler- time spent on the lanes, time spent on the mental game, and time spent in the gym. To be a pro, you need all three to be at the top. What hurts the pros now is if you're not on top, you can't make a living anymore .

[Aslan]

Ironically, while watching XtraFrame, Mark Baker's new cd that is coming out this Thursday; "The System" breaks down the difference into 10 things that separate Hall of Famers from non-Hall of Famers.

As I was watching and they were asking him about it and he was explaining it...I just kept thinking..."Hey! I ASKED THAT QUESTION!! You're stealing my question!! And why didn't Mark login and answer MY question!!"

They showed a little of the video. DAUNTING. I plan to take a lesson from him sometime in 2015...want to get ahold of his book and read it. And now I'm sure I'll have to get this DVD. But DAUNTING to see all 10 of these things...I just kept thinking to myself, "Well...great...it'll take me 3 years to do all 10 of those things simultaneously and probably more than a lifetime to do them all consistently. There goes beating out Chris Barnes for a Team USA spot." : (

[fortheloveofbowling]

Keep watching xtra frame, you will probably see your girl Diana Z!

[MICHAEL]

Keep watching xtra frame, you will probably see your girl Diana Z!

another Hi-Jacked-thread,,, I like this web site, but,,, Wow,,, another one!

[Ryster]

There are many things that make a pro a pro.

I have had the pleasure of bowling with Pros in a couple of Pro-Ams. Whether it is Bill O'Neill, Parker Bohn, Doug Kent, Kelly Kulick, Ryan Ciminelli, etc. Bowling, for them, is effortless. They will strike all day long on a THS like they are on auto-pilot. Consistent speed, consistent release, accurate targeting on the lane, it is their job. It is how they earn a living. You can see they are always mentally focused and thinking. Where the amateur is having a certain level of fun, the pro is strictly at work when they step on to the approach. They are analyzing every shot, every ball reaction, every pin fall. They are simply at another level. At the same time they are acting as ambassadors of the sport and helping to grow it.

They have the drive. The pro is willing to sacrifice a steady 9-5 type of income to go on the road and try to win big. They may go weeks without any income, but they press on. They strive for pure excellence. To them, mediocrity is unacceptable and nothing is ever good enough. An amateur may bowl a 700 and be satisfied. A pro bowls 700 and knows exactly why it wasn't a 750. A pro bowls a 750 and expected an 800+. Many times, even after a pro wins, they feel they should have done even better. They are simply wired different.

[fortheloveofbowling]

another Hi-Jacked-thread,,, I like this web site, but,,, Wow,,, another one!

Lighten up.

[MICHAEL]

Lighten up.

maybe the pot calling the kettle brown! :rolleyes: obviously that went right over your head..... :rolleyes:

[Aslan]

Keep watching xtra frame, you will probably see your girl Diana Z!

Ughhhh…I wish Liz Johnson LOOKED like Diana Z. Because Liz is actually my age and she might even be single. And she's American. I'm done dating foreign chicks. No thanks. But man…Diana Z is ALL KINDS OF HOT. If I was in Vegas this week, Walter Ray would probably have to pay her to distract me from following him around the whole weekend.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Liz is pretty nice looking i think, she lost a lot of weight a few years back. The only thing though is and how do i say this......i think she plays from the other side of the ball return. But hey, you might be the man for the job. You are right about diana z though, she is nice looking.

[Aslan]

I think Missy P. and Danielle M. are really cute…but both are not only far younger…but both are married. Bummer.

[Hendu71]

Imho, in just about every thing under the sun, there is always going to be somebody better than you. For almost everything I consider myself good at, there's some teenage asian on youtube that can do it better, even if they've been doing it less time than me. Guitar playing, video game playing, you name it. Not everybody can be the best, and no amount of skill, training, knowledge, etc is going to put them at the very top tier. What's the EXACT thing that makes the difference? Who knows, but if everybody had it, bowling would be a joke.

I think it's best to try to be the best YOU can be, and not worry about people that are better than you. There will always be people better than you. In anything you do. The fact is there's only about 100 bowlers on the entire planet that are good enough to make any serious cash with their talents. Out of how many bowlers? Millions?

[Aslan]

Hendu isn't really a "motivational" speaker per se. :rolleyes:

[Mudpuppy]

Okay, so there's been a lot of talk bouncing around about the future of the PBA, the future of sport bowling, and the reasons for the decline. Thats a separate topic.

But one thing that comes up here and there is regarding how the game has become easier, scores higher, equipment better...again, a separate topic.

But one thing I started thinking about is, what makes a "pro" better than the best guy/gal you bowl with in your leagues??

For me...in my 2nd league there was a guy that would be a threat to roll a perfect game once a night...but you didn't look at him and think "pro". And when I started bowling on sport patterns, sure, there were 1-3 guys that looked very good...but they never really averaged over 200...the sport patterns making them look "human". But then I joined a more competitive house league and saw a guy bowl that was just amazing. My new teammates said he has so many 300-games he doesn't really care anymore and I guess he won over $3,000 at sweeps last season. As I watched him bowl, it was apparent to me, he wasn't even really trying. If he strung a few strikes together he'd focus a bit more...but he didn't really care. I'm sure he'll just drift through the season...pad his handicap (currently 0) and when sweeps comes along and money can be won...THATs when he'll show up and actually "try".

But, as I annoyingly watched him bowl...and as I even more annoyingly watched me bowl like a toilet fly...I got to thinking, "What separates that guy WHEN HE TRIES from a PBA Pro bowler?" "Is the gap really that small that this bowler simply would need to be motivated and buy a PBA card and he'd be a "Pro"?"

Now, there's stuff all over the internet about gaps between pros and amateurs...varying by sport. I think most people would agree the gap in bowling is smaller than most other sports. It's less athletic for one thing. The risk of injury is lower. So even if the gap between pro and amateur is large; it's likely not as large as in baseball or football or tennis or ice hockey, etc...

As a sidenote...I can say with experience that the gap in bowling is nowhere near the gap in ice hockey. I played against college level players and players in lower level of Juniors...even high school players. And the difference between one of the better adult league hockey players and a player in juniors or D1 college...much less the AHL, IHL, NHL...is tremendously huge. I've watched guys who couldn't make a junior squad skate circles around some of the best adults I've ever played with...and these guys weren't GOOD ENOUGH to even make the team of a junior, college, or semi-pro team. But I digress...

The real question is, what is it that a PRO does that an AMATEUR isn't able to do or do consistently??? Here are some common answers and some answers that I've found throughout the web to serve as a catalyst for thought/discussion:

1) A USBC/Kegal video released not too long ago cites "accuracy" as the biggest difference based on their studies. They claim that an amateur when asked to hit a board repeatedly will miss by something like 1.5 boards on average. Yet a pro will miss by 0 to 0.5 boards. Those numbers may be a little off...but the general idea is it is accuracy that is the biggest difference.

2) Repeatability. Bowling isn't just about making a good shot...it's about making that SAME shot over and over and over again with little variation. The same steps, the same backswing, the same release....everything the same.

3) Timing. Most experts will say that timing is THE most important part of a bowler's game. While it's linked with repeatability (above)...is it that the pro's simply have that much better timing than amateurs?

4) Rev Rate. Sure, there are strokers, tweeners, crankers, and 2-handers in the Pros. But watch a "stroker" in the pros and see how fast his ball is going and what the rev rate is. A "PBA stroker" might be more like an amateur cranker. A rev rate around 280rpm and a ball speed around 18-19mph. Most pros average 20-21mph shots. At that speed, an increased rev rate is essential or the ball simply won't have time to make the turn.

5) Practice. Malcolm Gladwell (his books are horribly boring by the way) is famous for coming up with the "10,000 hour rule" where you need to practice something for 10,000 hours to be an expert at it. Is it that amateur bowlers don't PRACTICE. Most guys I play with on leagues NEVER practice. They simply bowl in 1-2 leagues...maybe go bowling with the family once a month if that. They don't "practice". Some guys bowl in a league almost every night...they don't have TIME to practice. Is THAT the difference? Pete Weber said in the 10 years before he joined the PBA, he practiced 6 hours a day every day. Thats 21,900 hours of practice.

6) Luck? There are a lot of famous poker players that just simply got lucky. They won a big tournament and people knew their name and suddenly they got offered sponsorships and started showing up on TV. Can a bowler just win a big tournament, get a name, then ride that train? Are there really excellent bowlers out there that just never hit that #1 spot and are thus still unknowns?

So, if it's ONE thing...if you narrowed it down to primarily ONE thing...what is IT? Think of some of the guys you bowl with that are clearly excellent at this game...so many 300-games they don't count them anymore...they can't tell ya how many 11-in-a-rows...maybe 1 or more 800 series. Maybe they participate in the USBC Open or are bronze/silver/gold level coaches or own an alley or pro shop. Why aren't THEY participating in the Summer King of Swing or WSOB or Masters?? What is that gap? Or maybe it's a former pro...used to be great...now they just give lessons or have taken up golf or opened a business. What did they LOSE? Sure...injuries can be one of the things...but what about former, retired pros that aren't injured?? What are they missing that they can't get back to compete with Rash and Belmonte? Why can PDW and Duke and WRW still do it?

Not meant as another thread where we bash the idea of amateurs being "pro level" and point out the difference in house and sport patterns. I play on both and understand the humility that comes with sport patterns. But what is IT in terms of the actual physical or technical game that amateurs in general are lacking? You can even think of it in terms of our own little community here. Mudpuppy qualified #1 in the AVI Challenge in Vegas...looked almost unbeatable! But then fell apart in the finals. If he can just fix whatever went wrong in the Finals...can he quit his day job? He looked DAMN good in qualifying! Do we need to see him on a sport patter in order to tell?? Or is it OBVIOUS that he's not a pro and never will be? What about VDubtx? Or MWhite? Both have virtually 0 handicap in the VBT...averages well over 200. What are they "missing" thats keeping them off the tour? VDub bowls the Open...both I think have bowled sport pattern leagues. How close ARE they? What would they need to do to make that happen??

In order to answer...we need to know what IT is? Is IT the GIFT? If so, and Iceman has IT....why is he NOT going to Vegas for the WSOB later this month??? Not to quote "In Living Colour"...80s reference...but "WHAT IS IT!!!

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: Do you know a good bowler? How do you know he's "good" and it's not just that you suck?

You can't write 800 paragraphs then mock me with cliff notes - doesn't work that way. Your simple answer is the difference between an Amateur - let's, for argument sake, call him "Aslan" and a pro, we can call him Michael the god of Bowling aka Iceman, is the ability to score chicks. Plain and simple. Surfers dudes typically can't score chicks. And the names have been slightly or not altered at all to protect the guilty. Cliff notes, out.

[Mike White]

You can't write 800 paragraphs then mock me with cliff notes - doesn't work that way. Your simple answer is the difference between an Amateur - let's, for argument sake, call him "Aslan" and a pro, we can call him Michael the god of Bowling aka Iceman, is the ability to score chicks. Plain and simple. Surfers dudes typically can't score chicks. And the names have been slightly or not altered at all to protect the guilty. Cliff notes, out.

You seem to forget, the good ones all leave places like the Michigan, and come out to Sunny California, and they don't come out here to be alone.

[Aslan]

You can't write 800 paragraphs then mock me with cliff notes - doesn't work that way. Your simple answer is the difference between an Amateur - let's, for argument sake, call him "Aslan" and a pro, we can call him Michael the god of Bowling aka Iceman, is the ability to score chicks. Plain and simple. Surfers dudes typically can't score chicks. And the names have been slightly or not altered at all to protect the guilty. Cliff notes, out.

Whoa...

Lets just agree on one thing...it's not the ability to "score chicks"...it's the quality of the chicks you score. We both know bikers that have scored hot biker chicks...and very much NOT hot biker chicks. You can't give them equal credit. And I WILL say...surfer dudes do QUITE well at scoring chicks. And WAY better than bikers...and I'll explain why:

1) Surfers get up early in the morning. That means they likely are able to get up early in the morning...and thus could someday (if not already) hold a meaningful JOB. And what do women like even more than kindness, sense of humor, good looks??? Thats right...money.

2) Surfing requires at least SOME athletic ability. Ever see an obese guy surfing? Nope. Me neither. Ever see an obese motorcyle rider? Yup...virtually 80% of them. Of matter of fact...bikers are SO fat (how fat are they!!?) that they make things called "vest extenders" for overweight bikers that bought their leather vests in a time BEFORE they discovered cheese fries...and rather than buy a bigger vest and re-sew all the patches...they just use "vest extenders"...kinda like those seat belt extenders.

3) In California...a motorcyclist is killed EVERY DAY on the freeways (on average). So, is a woman going to let some biker guy slobber on her and possibly populate her womb if he is likely going to die in a bike accident? Maybe...if his life insurance is substantial. Surfers just have to avoid drowning and sharks...which is much easier to avoid than asian women driving minivans.

Now...are Mike and I good examples of California surfers?? Nope. Why? Well, lets see...

1) Neither one of us have ever surfed. So there's that.
2) I've been riding motorcycles longer than you or Iceman. I actually was a member of a "club" during my days in Michigan. I've rode to Hell (MI) and back. I've rode all 4 season, all 12 months. I rode up and down the side of a mountain.
3) I took the Intermediate motorcycle safety class when I was 15. Not the beginner one...I'm talking about the one where you have to bring your own bike.
4) Mike and I live INLAND. I'm 25 miles from the beach, living in the hills. Mr. White is even FURTHER away from the Ocean..about 50 miles. Mike lives as close to the ocean as YOU live to Lake St. Clair or Lake Erie...probably further.
5) Neither myself nor Mike are "cool". Surfers tend to be "cool".
6) Neither of us own surf boards.

The Cliff Notes of the 2nd list is #1 and #6.

[MICHAEL]

Whoa...

Lets just agree on one thing...it's not the ability to "score chicks"...it's the quality of the chicks you score. We both know bikers that have scored hot biker chicks...and very much NOT hot biker chicks. You can't give them equal credit. And I WILL say...surfer dudes do QUITE well at scoring chicks. And WAY better than bikers...and I'll explain why:

1) Surfers get up early in the morning. That means they likely are able to get up early in the morning...and thus could someday (if not already) hold a meaningful JOB. And what do women like even more than kindness, sense of humor, good looks??? Thats right...money.

2) Surfing requires at least SOME athletic ability. Ever see an obese guy surfing? Nope. Me neither. Ever see an obese motorcyle rider? Yup...virtually 80% of them. Of matter of fact...bikers are SO fat (how fat are they!!?) that they make things called "vest extenders" for overweight bikers that bought their leather vests in a time BEFORE they discovered cheese fries...and rather than buy a bigger vest and re-sew all the patches...they just use "vest extenders"...kinda like those seat belt extenders.

3) In California...a motorcyclist is killed EVERY DAY on the freeways (on average). So, is a woman going to let some biker guy slobber on her and possibly populate her womb if he is likely going to die in a bike accident? Maybe...if his life insurance is substantial. Surfers just have to avoid drowning and sharks...which is much easier to avoid than asian women driving minivans.

Now...are Mike and I good examples of California surfers?? Nope. Why? Well, lets see...

1) Neither one of us have ever surfed. So there's that.
2) I've been riding motorcycles longer than you or Iceman. I actually was a member of a "club" during my days in Michigan. I've rode to Hell (MI) and back. I've rode all 4 season, all 12 months. I rode up and down the side of a mountain.
3) I took the Intermediate motorcycle safety class when I was 15. Not the beginner one...I'm talking about the one where you have to bring your own bike.
4) Mike and I live INLAND. I'm 25 miles from the beach, living in the hills. Mr. White is even FURTHER away from the Ocean..about 50 miles. Mike lives as close to the ocean as YOU live to Lake St. Clair or Lake Erie...probably further.
5) Neither myself nor Mike are "cool". Surfers tend to be "cool".
6) Neither of us own surf boards.

The Cliff Notes of the 2nd list is #1 and #6.

YOU have not ,,, been riding bikes longer then ICEGOD!! I had my first one when I was 4 years old! Yes,,, ICEMAN had the gift back then! Been doing riding for over 45 years,,,, HOW old did you say you were,, 40!!! LOL.... How tough are you Aslan,,, I remember in my 40's taking a belly dance on a 1000R ninja, form Kansas city Missouri to San Diego. Yes leaning into me all the way on a crutch-rocket! 1800 miles each way.
That's Biker tough bud!! I have also did a lot of dirt bike riding up and down mountains in Colorado! Huuuuuuu Raaaaa!!! Get's my blood pumping just thinking about those adventures, and ones to COME!

You don't have to be a surfer to be one! Ask the Beach Boy's!! Now that I am a God,,, I do so decree: Mike White, and Aslan to both be from this day forward, Surfer Dudes! Now go buy your own surfer boards!

The answer to your question is really simple... The difference is THE GIFT, Talent to perform a certain task, be it Baseball, Basketball, Football, or even bowling!
You Aslan or Mike White, maybe even me, could practice till the cow's come home, but will never reach their gifted level. That's why we are not all pro's!!

We each have our own levels, and they can be improved to a CERTAIN level, but that's the best you can expect! The GIFTED ones in every sport rise to the top, and for some its harder work then it is for others.

The amaturer average hard working Joe Bowler, will never be great, unless his mojo is working for him/her. Take lessons, practice till the cows come home, but your not going to be a PRO level, unless you have the GIFT.

The Gift is a combination of hundred's or things that are genetic!

Could an Armature bowler have the gift, and make it to the Pro level,,, SURE,,,, (((( IF THE GIFT IS THERE!)))))))

I have seen you bowl Aslan,,, I know you have had God-Zilla-Amounts of coaching,,,,, my advise to you is: TAKE UP SURFING!! LOL ..... :rolleyes:

OR prove this OLD MAN WRONG, and come to Plattsburg Missouri, and show me that you can beat and old, broken down X Iron Worker that is GIFTED, and has had Two lessons in his life.

I was rolling some big games my first year bowling, and I didn't KNOW a darn thing about bowling, I have posted the 298 that first year, and the 750 series that second year, I can post the pictures of the trophies... HOW DID I DO IT?? HELL IF I KNOW, had nothing to do with coaching, or practice... ((THE GIFT))!

Your gift is,,,,,,,IS,,,,,,,, well,,,,,,, Wow,,,, let me think about it! Later.

Hope this answered your question: What makes a Pro better then MOST armatures

TWO WORDS

THE GIFT

[Mike White]

YOU have not ,,, been riding bikes longer then ICEGOD!! I had my first one when I was 4 years old!

Back when you were 4, those weren't bikes, those were covered wagons.

[Aslan]

YOU have not ,,, been riding bikes longer then ICEGOD!! I had my first one when I was 4 years old!
Thats not true. I got my first dirt bike when I was 9 years old. If you got a dirt bike when you were 4...so what...it had training wheels on it? Come on. I'd say you can't ride a bike and be in diapers...but, well...you ride now and are probably back in diapers....so I guess it's possible....but not at FOUR!! And I can tell you're full of it because you said you were riding a Ninja 1000 in your 40s?? Well...lets see...the only 1000cc Ninja made while you were in your 40s was the 1988 ZX-10....when you were exactly 40. And that doesn't make any sense why a 40-year old buys a Ninja. Ninjas are for new motorcyle riding 20-year olds to crash and then quit motorcycling or buy a real motorcycle.


The amaturer average hard working Joe Bowler, will never be great, unless his mojo is working for him/her. Take lessons, practice till the cows come home, but your not going to be a PRO level, unless you have the GIFT.
OR prove this OLD MAN WRONG,

I look forward to proving you wrong. The trick is getting you to live long enough to witness it.

[vdubtx]

I look forward to proving you wrong. The trick is getting you to live long enough to witness it.

Think you will be talking to yourself about that one for a little while. ICEMAN stated in another thread, the "Closed" one, that he is gone(again) from bowling boards. He got a little huffy that Rob called him and others(me) 7th graders since we have a sense of humor and like to post funny things. Any way, he will probably be back eventually(hopefully).

[Aslan]

Think you will be talking to yourself about that one for a little while. ICEMAN stated in another thread, the "Closed" one, that he is gone(again) from bowling boards. He got a little huffy that Rob called him and others(me) 7th graders since we have a sense of humor and like to post funny things. Any way, he will probably be back eventually(hopefully).

That happens every 6 months. Last time he left for 2 weeks because Bowl1820 closed one of his threads and he vowed never to return. He'll be back. Not because the site is awesome or the people are awesome...but because I'm awesome and you can't get "Aslan" anywhere else but here. Besides...he has to make sure I don't change my avatar prematurely given that it was part of the AVI bet. Besides...he's organizing some Hillbilly Social or something out in Missouri this summer...he'll need a site to keep that effort up and running.

Man...getting bent out of shape about being compared to a 7th grader?? You don't even want to KNOW what I've been called and compared to online. Trust me.