What am I missing?

[axslinger99]

Last weekend I bowled at a small house in Payson, AZ. They only have 16 lanes but they condition daily and take care of the lanes. I got in and got a lane with fresh oil...no pins on the pin deck. My ball behaved exactly the way I would expect it to on fresh oil. The skid/hook/roll were exactly what I would expect.

Yesterday I went to the local AMF center and requested a lane with fresh oil. Well, the oil appeared to be fresh but my ball wasn't behaving as I would expect it to. I had a strong oil ring around my ball so I know the lane wasn't fried. However, it just wouldn't hook! My back-end motion was almost non-existent. I had to move 10 boards right just to get close to the pocket. After a game or two, I just accepted that it wasn't going to get better and accepted the weak pocket entry. I managed to squeak out a couple 160-ish games and a 183 but it was a struggle.

I am a stroker with low-revs but my style generally works great with my Hammer Absolut Curve. I can straighten it out for spares and I get a decent hook on THS. I was watching a guy next to me bowl. He was throwing and orange and black Storm...couldn't tell what model. I think it had the name "gravity" in it. He was a cranker and was getting the kind of motion I would expect from my own delivery. I noticed that he cupped his ball so I thought I'd try that; it helped a little but I've just never been able to get those "cranker" revs on my ball.

My point of all this is, based on what I've said, what would make my ball behave this way, assuming this lane really had a THS pattern? It made no sense to me. In my effort to somehow get more revs I strained the tendons in my right hand! I won't be trying that again.

[Aslan]

Welcome to the differences between one center and another. Many people don't realize these things because they stay in 1 center.

It could be many things. It could be that the one center puts more oil down or a flatter pattern that extends further out. It could be the difference in the lane materials. There is synthetic and wood…but also different kinds of synthetics.

When I first started bowling, I got invited to join a short 10-week league in a local AMF house. I went from throwing 160-180 on wood lanes to throwing 115-135 in the new house. It was miserable. Like you, my ball just sailed into the 6-pin. I had to virtually throw a straight shot to hit the pocket.

I tried everything I could think of. I got a new ball. I added surface to my ball. I tried throwing it slower. I tried adding revs. Eventually, I learned how to bowl on heavier/flatter/longer oil…but I'm still better when there is significant dryness to the right.

I even have different ball choices for when I bowl on fresh versus not fresh oil. And before sweeps, I'll practice in other houses…the more oil the better…so I can get used to Vegas conditions.

There's lots of stuff you can do to help you score on different patterns than the one you're used to. But the first step is noticing there's a difference. I bowled casually all my life and never knew the lanes were different or the centers were different. I didn't even know the balls were all that different…figured it was just appearance.

[RobLV1]

Individual oil patterns can make a huge difference. Of the three houses where I bowl league this year, I usually end up starting standing 23-27 in one center, 27-32 in the second center, and 32-36 in the third. They are all typical house shots, but different lengths and volumes necessitate that they all be played differently.

[MICHAEL]

Individual oil patterns can make a huge difference. Of the three houses where I bowl league this year, I usually end up starting standing 23-27 in one center, 27-32 in the second center, and 32-36 in the third. They are all typical house shots, but different lengths and volumes necessitate that they all be played differently.

YES Rob, and Iceman bowls at an alley, in Plattsburg where they change it EVERY WEEK!! I like it and it has HELPED MY BOWLING at other Establishments,,, Heck last Friday I set the high scratch 741 for senior men at Gladstone!! I am seeing a huge difference in my ability to adapt, do in huge part to having to make ball, and delivery adjustments at the Wood Lanes of Plattburg!! Here lately, I have the score sheets I have been hitthing 600, a lot more often! Adjustments seem to be the key, and not waiting to long to implement them!

[axslinger]

Well, I managed to eek out a few 160's and a 183 last night but it's definitely a lot more work when you have to "work" your ball. I was cupping my ball and managing to get a few more revs out of it but it was still tough. Lots of left 10's, some 7's and some groups but I was picking up my spares so that was was my saving grace. If I didn't have a decent spare game it would have been disastrous.

On that note, I'll be bowling on "fresh" lanes at the same house tonight. I normally bowl on "open" lanes and who knows what kind of condition they're in.

[axslinger]

Well, I bowled my first night on a league in that house; the lanes were the same as the lanes reserved for open bowling. My scores were absolutely horrible. I have to find a way to adjust to those lanes. It appears the heads aren't completely dry. One of the guys on my team was a serious cranker and he had more of a long curve that a hook. It may have hooked a little more at the back end but not much. If I had to guess, I would say they either have very heavy oil on the fronts or they oil all the way to 40 feet, or both.

My best hope is to play a straight shot and hope for the best.

If I can't adjust, this is going to be a long, miserable 8 weeks. :(

[RobLV1]

Well, I bowled my first night on a league in that house; the lanes were the same as the lanes reserved for open bowling. My scores were absolutely horrible. I have to find a way to adjust to those lanes. It appears the heads aren't completely dry. One of the guys on my team was a serious cranker and he had more of a long curve that a hook. It may have hooked a little more at the back end but not much. If I had to guess, I would say they either have very heavy oil on the fronts or they oil all the way to 40 feet, or both.

My best hope is to play a straight shot and hope for the best.

If I can't adjust, this is going to be a long, miserable 8 weeks. :(

Are you sure that the ball is going straighter because there is oil, or is it because there isn't any at all? Lanes that are bone dry can suck the energy out of a bowling ball so fast that it straightens out, and appears unable to hook because of too much oil. The truth of the matter is often just the opposite; the ball loses energy, stops hooking, and hits like a toasted marshmallow.

[axslinger]

Are you sure that the ball is going straighter because there is oil, or is it because there isn't any at all? Lanes that are bone dry can suck the energy out of a bowling ball so fast that it straightens out, and appears unable to hook because of too much oil. The truth of the matter is often just the opposite; the ball loses energy, stops hooking, and hits like a toasted marshmallow.

There's plenty of oil from what I can tell, based on the revs I'm seeing going down the lane, on my ball as well as others.

[bobforsaken]

Hi Axslinger99. I'm also a stroker and had similar issues when oil was fresh. My center has a 42 foot pattern for its House shot, which is a little on the longer side. I know I used to struggle with fresh conditions since I started in May. How far right are you moving with your target? I found the only way to get strong pocket entry was to play around the first arrow (straight up or even outside line). My problem was my straight wrist release just wasn't getting the revs on it to counter the speed and my release was coming around the side of the ball too much creating even longer skid. I too am throwing it about 15MPH but my revs were just too low. Finally I started working on cupping my wrist with the help of some compression to keep my tendons from flaring up. I also started moving up on the approach to slow down my speed. Between the two changes, now the fresh conditions match up well with the way I bowl.

One other thing that worked for me was getting a spare ball. I was ok at flattening out my release for spare shots, but when trying to get a new cup released down, it was just counter productive switching back and forth. I've since played without my spare ball and did OK, but for getting the feel of the release it was very helpful to keep doing it whether I was shooting a strike or spare. I can honestly say the second best thing that happened to my strike shot was getting a spare ball. (the best thing was cupping my wrist)

[axslinger]

Hi Axslinger99. I'm also a stroker and had similar issues when oil was fresh. My center has a 42 foot pattern for its House shot, which is a little on the longer side. I know I used to struggle with fresh conditions since I started in May. How far right are you moving with your target? I found the only way to get strong pocket entry was to play around the first arrow (straight up or even outside line). My problem was my straight wrist release just wasn't getting the revs on it to counter the speed and my release was coming around the side of the ball too much creating even longer skid. I too am throwing it about 15MPH but my revs were just too low. Finally I started working on cupping my wrist with the help of some compression to keep my tendons from flaring up. I also started moving up on the approach to slow down my speed. Between the two changes, now the fresh conditions match up well with the way I bowl.

One other thing that worked for me was getting a spare ball. I was ok at flattening out my release for spare shots, but when trying to get a new cup released down, it was just counter productive switching back and forth. I've since played without my spare ball and did OK, but for getting the feel of the release it was very helpful to keep doing it whether I was shooting a strike or spare. I can honestly say the second best thing that happened to my strike shot was getting a spare ball. (the best thing was cupping my wrist)

How do you get more revs without coming around the side of the ball on the release? I thought it was necessary to get more revs. When I stay behind the ball, it straightens it out.

[RobLV1]

Let me see if I can simplify this for you. There are two different elements that determine a bowlers style: axis tilt and axis rotation. To understand these two componants, visualize the two tires connected by the axle of a car. The two tires are standing straight up. This means that there is zero degrees of axis tilt. When the steering wheel of the car is turned, the wheels turn, the car turns, yet the tires are still standing straight up. This turn of the tires is axis rotation. In terms of a bowling ball, zero degrees of axis tilt means that the ball is rolling straight end-over-end. Ninety degrees of axis tilt means that the ball is simply spinning around a axis that goes right through the top and the bottom of the ball. Each bowler has their own unique amount of axis tilt and axis rotation. The idea for you is to stay behind the ball to keep from developing too much axis tilt, yet release by turning through the ball rather than around it to increase your axis rotation. Think of it in terms of two parts to the release: where your hand is when your thumb comes out of the ball, and where your hand is when your fingers exit the ball. Your hand should be behind the ball when the thumb comes out, but turning through it when the fingers exit the ball. Does this make sense?

[axslinger]

If I'm reading you right, I'm trying to get forward "spin", like a wheel stuck in the mud, with just a little axis tilt, correct?

[Mike White]

If I'm reading you right, I'm trying to get forward "spin", like a wheel stuck in the mud, with just a little axis tilt, correct?

Robs theory is rather than spin your wheels when stuck in the mud, call a tow truck.

Or in bowling terms, rather than lift the ball, project it down the lane.

[bobforsaken]

Axs, what works for me in terms of a release is thinking about Projecting the ball towards arrows as if I'm trying to throw the ball there (in the air). Of course I'm rolling the ball and its landing just over the foul line but by THINKING i'm trying to push the ball to the arrow I'm stay behind the ball longer and accelerate through my release (that produces more revs). Keep in mind this works for ME because I was coming around the side of the ball too much (I still do) and was coming around too early.

I still do come around the side of the ball more than I should because I think about coming around the side of the ball by rotating my wrist and shaking hands with the pins etc.. But what I discovered is that by cupping my wrist I naturally started putting my fingers on the inside of the ball. (Meaning the fingers are closer to my leg than my thumb at the point of release) If I do nothing else when my thumb comes out and the ball rolls off my fingers my axis of rotation is about 30 degrees. Preloading the ball in this position can be thought of as leading with your index finger... as least that is how I think of it... And doing so allows me to make slight changes in my axis of rotation by spreading my index finger out more or less.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Think about the saying " amateurs work the outside of the ball and pros work the inside of the ball ". Look at some videos of top players and not just the very highest rev guys. You will see the hand position on the back swing and even all the way to the bottom inside the ball. At the bottom at least square until the thumb comes out and then rotate with the fingers. On your push away focus on directing your ring finger and the inside of your elbow towards your target and try staying inside the ball. Having said that there are plenty of great players that get around the ball earlier and spin it a little more. Tom Baker is a perfect example of almost suitcasing it and i would love to have his game. The key is consistency so you can get a read on your ball reaction regardless of the axis rotation generated by your release. There is a huge variance in axis rotation and rev rate among top players.

[RobLV1]

Tom Baker is a really bad example. He throws a full-roller and is one of very, very few players who can get away with that roll using modern equipment.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Baker is defined as a spinner. Here is a reference for you: 11thframe.com-august 25 2013 article.

[Mike White]

Tom Baker is a really bad example. He throws a full-roller and is one of very, very few players who can get away with that roll using modern equipment.

Tom Baker is FAR from a full roller.

A full roller has 0* of tilt, and some amount of axis rotation

In this clip, at 3:49 there is a slow mo from behind of Tom Baker, and when they focus on the ball, there is clearly plenty of axis tilt.

Tom Baker is more of a spinner.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFlglAApeL4

[RobLV1]

O.K., Mike anything you say.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Find some clips of Tom Smallwood. He throws a full roller.

[fortheloveofbowling]

OH GOD. First my wife and now rob. Is it really possible i am never right???

[ALazySavage]

Getting back on topic (in a sense). Axslinger, I'm assuming you were talking about bowling at Rim Country Lanes versus bowling at AMF Tempe. Now, I could be incorrect since I haven't been bowling regularly at AMF Tempe for a while but this is what I do know about the two houses.

Rim Country re-opened in 2011 and did a fair amount of remodeling; while the pinsetters and some of the other equipment may not show it (ball returns, etc.) I believe these are newer lanes. A few things I can say about my bowling and Rim Country...historically the biggest difficulty I have is getting the ball through the front of the lane cleanly (rolling too early and burning up energy) - I had very little problem with this at Rim Country. Second, the manager at Rim Country throws a lot of ball from what I remember - their typical house shot/local tournament shot probably caters to this (heavier volume, more length).

AMF Tempe has been around for a long time and I think I was a junior the last time they resurfaced/replaced the lanes. Like many AMF houses they struggled financially, but I'm going to tell you they really struggled for a while with league bowling so I doubt they put new lane beds in since I bowled there (wouldn't make financial sense). So you are going to have a worn down AMF synthetic lane which can be much softer than what you saw in Payson (causing the ball to roll earlier and burn out as others have said). Obviously there are exceptions to this, but historically the deep inside line at AMF is the shot that posts scores because so many players play up the track (10 board area) that they burn the shot out early.

[Mike White]

O.K., Mike anything you say.

You recently said.


What is the "gift" of coaching? It is the ability to "see." ...

If you looked as Tom Baker and thought he was a full roller, then you don't have the ability to see, and therefore must not have the "gift".

[RobLV1]

When I referred to Tom Baker as a full-roller, I was remembering that someone who had bowled with Tom Baker on numerous occasions had told me that he threw a full-roller. Mike, why is it that you feel such a need to prove me wrong? Do you think it makes you a bigger man? It doesn't. It just makes you look petty and small. Please let it go. I promise I won't beat you next time.

[MICHAEL]

When I referred to Tom Baker as a full-roller, I was remembering that someone who had bowled with Tom Baker on numerous occasions had told me that he threw a full-roller. Mike, why is it that you feel such a need to prove me wrong? Do you think it makes you a bigger man? It doesn't. It just makes you look petty and small. Please let it go. I promise I won't beat you next time.


Even Iceman's dog had to smile when reading that Rob,,, but can you beat him on WOOD!!!!!???? http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/happydog_zpsqlzky4s8.gif (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/happydog_zpsqlzky4s8.gif.html)

[Aslan]

Just put em both in a paper bag....shake it up....and watch the show!

In my humble opinion...knowing both folks and having met them personally...it's two good guys that each have a LOT of information...and neither have a good grasp on the concept of sometimes not knowing EVERYTHING.

I can speak from experience....but I am trying really hard...when I get that urge to prove I'm right at all costs...to just chilllllllll. Since moving to California...I'm doing a much better job of just not getting bent out of shape about every little thing. I'm just getting too old for it all. I live far too close to the beach to spend 46 hours bent out of shape about anything really. It's far easier to just peruse this thread and say to myself....

A) What the hell is a "full roller"?
B) Why do I care?
C) Who is Tom Baker? I've heard of Tom Smallwood...probably not the same guy.
D) How many M&Ms is the most M&Ms anyone has ever eaten in one sitting?
E) When is lunch? Cuz I kinda gotta pee.

[Mike White]

When I referred to Tom Baker as a full-roller, I was remembering that someone who had bowled with Tom Baker on numerous occasions had told me that he threw a full-roller. Mike, why is it that you feel such a need to prove me wrong? Do you think it makes you a bigger man? It doesn't. It just makes you look petty and small. Please let it go. I promise I won't beat you next time.

Ok so now it's the other guy who is wrong, not you... Nice defense.

As a writer, I would assume you also do a good deal of reading from respected authors.

How did you miss this gem?

"Several players on the PBA Tour throw spinners, and Tommy Baker has to be the leader of the pack." -- John Jowdy in Bowling execution.

I don't try to prove you wrong, you do that just fine on your own.

I just point out to others, that some of what you present as fact, is complete crap.

[bowl1820]

Rob's not exactly wrong Tom Baker (A PBA & USBC Hall of Famer, not Dr. Who!) actually had two releases, The full roll and the spinner.

He originally had a powerful very high rolling release, but do to wrist injures (He broke his wrist in a fall about 30 years ago, when his losing streak started).

He had to change his release because his hand no longer would get into position to do his roll release. So he changed and went to a spinner release.

That 2004 video of Tom Baker is after he changed to the spinner release. You would have to look at the videos from the early 80's to see his old release.

[RobLV1]

Ok so now it's the other guy who is wrong, not you... Nice defense.

As a writer, I would assume you also do a good deal of reading from respected authors.

How did you miss this gem?

"Several players on the PBA Tour throw spinners, and Tommy Baker has to be the leader of the pack." -- John Jowdy in Bowling execution.

I don't try to prove you wrong, you do that just fine on your own.

I just point out to others, that some of what you present as fact, is complete crap.

So, Mike, it was nice for a few weeks after we met in September, you managed not to make it personal, but here you go again. There is absolutely no reason to say things like this about me in a public forum. As I said above, it makes you look petty and small. If you think I'm wrong about something, fine. Just state your opinion without the personal attacks. I thought that you seemed like a pretty nice guy when we met in Vegas. Why do you feel the need to attack my credibility? Please just get over it; it's getting really old.

[Mike White]

So, Mike, it was nice for a few weeks after we met in September, you managed not to make it personal, but here you go again. There is absolutely no reason to say things like this about me in a public forum. As I said above, it makes you look petty and small. If you think I'm wrong about something, fine. Just state your opinion without the personal attacks. I thought that you seemed like a pretty nice guy when we met in Vegas. Why do you feel the need to attack my credibility? Please just get over it; it's getting really old.

I'm not the one who made this personal.

My comment in post #18 simply pointed out that Tom Baker was in fact not a full roller.

Your reply in #19 made it personal.

Again, I don't attack your credibility, you do that fine on your own.

[MICHAEL]

I'm not the one who made this personal.

My comment in post #18 simply pointed out that Tom Baker was in fact not a full roller.

Your reply in #19 made it personal.

Again, I don't attack your credibility, you do that fine on your own.

I think you both could use a set of drums, instead of beating up on each other, we are all getting SICK OF IT! Buy some FRICKEN DRUMS, and beat the hell out of them!
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/drumming_zpssvk5ft8b.gif (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/drumming_zpssvk5ft8b.gif.html)

It's amazing how relaxing the body, and mind become after 30 minutes of the above!

[Mike White]

Rob's not exactly wrong Tom Baker (A PBA & USBC Hall of Famer, not Dr. Who!) actually had two releases, The full roll and the spinner.

He originally had a powerful very high rolling release, but do to wrist injures (He broke his wrist in a fall about 30 years ago, when his losing streak started).

He had to change his release because his hand no longer would get into position to do his roll release. So he changed and went to a spinner release.

That 2004 video of Tom Baker is after he changed to the spinner release. You would have to look at the videos from the early 80's to see his old release.

1981, Not a full roller. Harder to see the ball roll due to the solid color ball, but his fingers come around the outside of the ball.

On a full roller the fingers come up the back, and a little left of the center of the ball, and the ball tracks between the fingers and thumb.

Pete Weber uses the full circumference of the ball, but doesn't track between the thumb and fingers, so he's a semi-roller.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-xpXoUZEis

[RobLV1]

I'm not the one who made this personal.

My comment in post #18 simply pointed out that Tom Baker was in fact not a full roller.

Your reply in #19 made it personal.

Again, I don't attack your credibility, you do that fine on your own.

My reply in #19 simply said, "Okay, Mike, whatever you say." That simply said that I don't think it's worth arguing about. If you see that as saying something personal, then you obviously are just looking for an excuse to start attacking me again. Please get over it. This forum provides a lot of useful information. I'm sure that there is plenty of room for both of us. We both have a lot to offer without taking potshots at one another.

[MICHAEL]

My reply in #19 simply said, "Okay, Mike, whatever you say." That simply said that I don't think it's worth arguing about. If you see that as saying something personal, then you obviously are just looking for an excuse to start attacking me again. Please get over it. This forum provides a lot of useful information. I'm sure that there is plenty of room for both of us. We both have a lot to offer without taking potshots at one another.


Do you both hear that DRUM BEAT,,,OFF in the distance??? It's the drum beat of PEACE, Harmony, Love, and Respect!!! It's time to smoke the peace pipe!!
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh293/Gerome40/Native%20American/peacepipe.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/Gerome40/media/Native%20American/peacepipe.jpg.html)

Mike, Rob,,, smoke the peace pipe.... and there will be Peace for (white man), and rob! LOL

[bowl1820]

http://s11.postimg.org/o3ah8fic3/76d31508_c851d40e_Derail_1.jpg