Polish vs Sanding, vs Burnt Toast fine line

[MICHAEL]

Polish vs Sanding vs burn OUT
1. Polish saves energy, and gets the ball down for a longer skid distance
2. Higher grit lets say a 4000 will so about the same I guess

So what's the advantage IF ANY of one vs the other?

If a person sanded a hyper-cell down to a 500 and put polish on it, how would that be different then a 4000 surface that should get it through the heads with lots of energy, ( like the polish), and give it a monster late hook?


This whole thing of Polish vs sanding has me somewhat confused.
Skid, Hook, Roll!

When a ball does an early midline movement gradual arc, is that a SLOW BUNOUT,,, What makes it not turn to Burnt Toast by the time it gets to the pocket?

I know Rob doesn't like polish, but I do! All my best games, and series have been with polished balls, not solids

[goneal32]

Im no expert on surfaces, but I can tell ya from experience, my HyperCell came with a rough 2000 finish, it would begin to hook in heavy oil as soon as it left my hand. I put polish on the 2000 and OMG, this thing goes much longer an has an awesome hook, not angular, very controllable on medium oil, much different ball reaction with polish. I get to use it a lot more.

[striker12]

Just last night i got my rumble back after getting ir pluged and redrilled i had it at OOB played 5 frames with it watching it lose energy when it got near the pins. OOB on a rumble is 2000 grit.

so at the 6th frame i took the ball in the proshop and had him put a light coat of polish on it to see what it does, the ball went farther down the lane but had a lot stronger move because it has more energy.

in the 3rd game we did another 2 tests first 5 frames we put the ball down to 1000 grit and polished, it did not slide down the lane as far as when i had 2000 light coat of polish but had a smoother backend reaction compared the 2000 light coat of polish,

in the 6th frame to the 10th of the 3rd game we went 1000 grit and then put storm extra shine on the ball, the ball was hitting the dry and just b-lined it right for the pins it was hard to get a strike when the pins where not blowing backwards it was like someone dropped a grenade back there.

so since at that point im going to be going back to OOB with light coat of polish on my ball it seems to do a lot better with that and if im going to be in a tournament that has a heavy oil pattern out witch will accualy be this Saturday i will be bowling at the YBT on the Tokyo so i will get my rumble down to 1000 grit and use storm extra shine on it.

[RobLV1]

The reason that I don't like polish is that it is usually used by bowlers who insist on getting to the friction too early. The polish will help the ball to skid through the oil and over-react when it hits the friction. A surface that is finished with a high grit abralon (4000 for instance) will skid a little bit less in the oil (so you have to keep the ball in the oil longer), and will react a little more tamely when it hits the friction. This necessitates playing a little bit more inside, using the friction that is past the pattern, rather than the friction that is outside the pattern (on a typical house shot).

[MICHAEL]

Im no expert on surfaces, but I can tell ya from experience, my HyperCell came with a rough 2000 finish, it would begin to hook in heavy oil as soon as it left my hand. I put polish on the 2000 and OMG, this thing goes much longer an has an awesome hook, not angular, very controllable on medium oil, much different ball reaction with polish. I get to use it a lot more.

interesting,,, do you play the inside, or the out side with that polished/2000 Hyper-Cell?

[MICHAEL]

The reason that I don't like polish is that it is usually used by bowlers who insist on getting to the friction too early. The polish will help the ball to skid through the oil and over-react when it hits the friction. A surface that is finished with a high grit abralon (4000 for instance) will skid a little bit less in the oil (so you have to keep the ball in the oil longer), and will react a little more tamely when it hits the friction. This necessitates playing a little bit more inside, using the friction that is past the pattern, rather than the friction that is outside the pattern (on a typical house shot).

question Rob, I put a 4 side of polish on my Hyper-Cell then put it on the spinner, but only used it for holding the ball, and did a 4 side lightly roughing it up with a 2000 pad, (did not turn the spinner on, just used it as a guide to get all four sides pretty equal).

That's what I did last Thursday and it gave me that 741, at Gladstone Brunswick.

Do some put the polish on first, and then buff it up with the pad, rather then the reverse? Worked for me? Seems it might have better groves if done after the polish. It didn't take the polish off. Again light buffing with the 2000 pad.

[fortheloveofbowling]

The reason that I don't like polish is that it is usually used by bowlers who insist on getting to the friction too early. The polish will help the ball to skid through the oil and over-react when it hits the friction. A surface that is finished with a high grit abralon (4000 for instance) will skid a little bit less in the oil (so you have to keep the ball in the oil longer), and will react a little more tamely when it hits the friction. This necessitates playing a little bit more inside, using the friction that is past the pattern, rather than the friction that is outside the pattern (on a typical house shot).

Excellent point Rob. One of my favorite things to do is use surface and close down my angles and play out. As you described, a little less bump off the dry and rolls up a little sooner in the oil to provide a little room. Pearl bowling balls can provide a lot of over under if you are not sharp.

[got_a_300]

Pearl bowling balls can provide a lot of over under if you are not sharp.
That is the main reason I try to avoid throwing
pearlized bowling balls if at all possible. I have
better luck with solid coverstock balls and then
sometimes adding a light coat of polish when it
is needed to them helps.

[MICHAEL]

That is the main reason I try to avoid throwing
pearlized bowling balls if at all possible. I have
better luck with solid coverstock balls and then
sometimes adding a light coat of polish when it
is needed to them helps.


Hummm I am an enigma, I guess. My two perfect games last year were at the same alley different leagues, but both with peralized balls. IQ butterscotch storm, and Virtual Gravity nanno. Not only both pearl balls, but one symmetrical the other asymmetrical. figure,,,, same oil patters basically.

Had a series few weeks ago 741 using a solid ball? HOUSE OIL on all 3! Hyber-Cell figure?

QUESTION: If you drill a ball to BREAK EARLY, (midlane), does it start burring up energy much earlier) If so what keeps it form turning into the phrase burnt toast by the time it gets to the pocket, vs a LONG skid, late hook?

Do balls that break early lose more energy then long ones!?

[bubba809]

I too do better with polish on the ball. I think a lot has to do with your own personal release.

[fortheloveofbowling]

I have different surfaces and depending on the motion i am looking for or what the lane dictates, i use what it takes to score. I shot my best series this year last week with the optimus which is shiny. I am just saying consistency wise a little surface controls the lane better most often. But, it is what you are comfortable with as long as you have experimented and see the difference in motion.

[goneal32]

interesting,,, do you play the inside, or the out side with that polished/2000 Hyper-Cell?

I can play the inside with it.

[MICHAEL]

I can play the inside with it.

same here! Right out of the box, first day I was standing way left of center and shooting between 3r and 4th arrow. It was crazy how many strikes it was giving me with that inside angle.

Now with the polish I can play the out side, shoot second arrow, without it burning up! Its this angle that gave me that 741 last Friday on league!
You might ask why bowl outside if it worked so good throwing it inside. I am much more consistent playing the second to third arrows.

Polish has it use, in my game.

[RobLV1]

Hummm I am an enigma, I guess. My two perfect games last year were at the same alley different leagues, but both with peralized balls. IQ butterscotch storm, and Virtual Gravity nanno. Not only both pearl balls, but one symmetrical the other asymmetrical. figure,,,, same oil patters basically.

Had a series few weeks ago 741 using a solid ball? HOUSE OIL on all 3! Hyber-Cell figure?

QUESTION: If you drill a ball to BREAK EARLY, (midlane), does it start burring up energy much earlier) If so what keeps it form turning into the phrase burnt toast by the time it gets to the pocket, vs a LONG skid, late hook?

Do balls that break early lose more energy then long ones!?

This is what happens. Initially the ball skids through the oil, going straight. As it begins to slow down, the rotational energy applied by the bowlers release becomes equal to the forward energy, and the ball begins to hook. Once the ball finishes hooking, it begins to roll. The beginning of the roll phase is where the ball possesses it's maximum energy for transference to the pins. If the ball begins to hook too early, it will also begin to roll too early, and will lose energy before it gets to the pins. When the ball begins to hook, it is the beginning of the finite process that ultimately results in energy loss at some point. The factors that influence when the ball will hook include (in order of importance): where you play the lane (how soon does the ball encounter friction), the bowlers style (speed, rev rate, speed/rev balance, axis tilt, and axis rotation), the surface of the ball (both material and the surface that has been applied), the low rg of the core (the low rg and surface order may change in certain bowlers), and how the core is positioned within the ball in relation to the PAP of the bowler (layout).

Please note that the layout is the last element listed. While ball drillers often will try and tell you that you can make a ball do whatever you want it to by using a particular layout, it is just not true. If you want a ball that will go long, then by a ball that will go long, and use a layout that will compliment what is was designed to do rather than one that is at odds with the design of the ball.

Do balls that break early lose more energy than long ones? Yes.

[MICHAEL]

This is what happens. Initially the ball skids through the oil, going straight. As it begins to slow down, the rotational energy applied by the bowlers release becomes equal to the forward energy, and the ball begins to hook. Once the ball finishes hooking, it begins to roll. The beginning of the roll phase is where the ball possesses it's maximum energy for transference to the pins. If the ball begins to hook too early, it will also begin to roll too early, and will lose energy before it gets to the pins. When the ball begins to hook, it is the beginning of the finite process that ultimately results in energy loss at some point. The factors that influence when the ball will hook include (in order of importance): where you play the lane (how soon does the ball encounter friction), the bowlers style (speed, rev rate, speed/rev balance, axis tilt, and axis rotation), the surface of the ball (both material and the surface that has been applied), the low rg of the core (the low rg and surface order may change in certain bowlers), and how the core is positioned within the ball in relation to the PAP of the bowler (layout).

Please note that the layout is the last element listed. While ball drillers often will try and tell you that you can make a ball do whatever you want it to by using a particular layout, it is just not true. If you want a ball that will go long, then by a ball that will go long, and use a layout that will compliment what is was designed to do rather than one that is at odds with the design of the ball.

Do balls that break early lose more energy than long ones? Yes.

THANKS for your in-depth answer! So if balls that break early lose energy progressively as it does its arc to the pocket, wouldn't it have less energy when it reaches its target, rather then a ball that goes long, and does the hokey stick movement at the end of roll?

I just resurfaced my Hyper-Cell yesterday, 360, and then lightly 2000 all four sides, then put a light coat of polish on all four sides. This is the ball that gave me the big series last Friday on the seniors league. I used it last night on the wood in Plattsburg and it was just a little aggressive for me on the fresh 40 foot pattern, so I pulled out the DEADLY AIM you gave me in Vegas.
Anyway, on those tough wood lanes it gave me my best score of the night, a low 200..... how low,,,, 202! LOL CARRY,,,CARRY ,,, CARRY,,, was why I wasen't getting a great series.... with the Hyper-Cell. I think if I would have pulled out the Deadly Aim sooner I would have had a 600 plus on the wood! GRRRR ,,, knowing when to change balls is Key!


My wood average/scores are about 10 pins lower then on the synthetic. WHAT A CHALLANGE!!! I have had some good games, and series, but nothing like on synthetic.

I look forward each week to the NEW challenge the wood presents, never knowing the length, or type of pattern they will put down!! About as close to sports pattern on wood as it gets.

The information you give Rob is GREATLY appreciated bud! THANKS again for the Deadly-Aim,,, I put a good coat of polish on it after resurfacing it, and its one of my two, GO 2 BALLS!! It has a great move to the pocket for ICE! Yep, with the polish, and 1 drop of Old Spice cologne in finger hole it not only looks GREAT, it smells as good as it looks!
(they say the smell actually helps give the ball a little more hook, and stores more energy in the ball)! It can, and does Spice up your game!!
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy200/chrisoneillart/Keino/7-Old-Spice-Girl.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/chrisoneillart/media/Keino/7-Old-Spice-Girl.jpg.html)

[RobLV1]

Michael: Both the Deadly Aim and the Hyper Cell have fairly low rg's (2.49, 2.52). Since you bowl regularly on wood lanes, you might want to consider adding a ball with a higher rg (2.55+) to help to retain the energy better on the high friction surface. Right now you are just looking at surface preparation and layout to do everything. Polishing a low rg ball to get it to go longer is kind of like putting a set of racing tires on a dump truck. After all is said and done, it's still got a dump truck engine regardless of the tires that you put on it.

[bubba809]

Michael: Both the Deadly Aim and the Hyper Cell have fairly low rg's (2.49, 2.52). Since you bowl regularly on wood lanes, you might want to consider adding a ball with a higher rg (2.55+) to help to retain the energy better on the high friction surface. Right now you are just looking at surface preparation and layout to do everything. Polishing a low rg ball to get it to go longer is kind of like putting a set of racing tires on a dump truck. After all is said and done, it's still got a dump truck engine regardless of the tires that you put on it.

Rob- I seem to have the same problem(?) as Iceman. I take a lower RG ball and slap polish on it to skid further before breaking....but it works. So you're saying I'd be better off getting a higher RG ball and eliminating the polish?? And any suggestions of a good ball from your advice?

--And a fear of mine is if I get a higher RG ball (2.55+) it will not have that harder entry angle I like.

[MICHAEL]

Rob- I seem to have the same problem(?) as Iceman. I take a lower RG ball and slap polish on it to skid further before breaking....but it works. So you're saying I'd be better off getting a higher RG ball and eliminating the polish?? And any suggestions of a good ball from your advice?

--And I fear of mine is if I get a higher RG ball (2.55+) it will not have that harder entry angle I like.

Good point bubba,,,, you spend the money first, then let Ice know it it works!!! LOL

OR Rob,,, send me a used Higher RG ball you don't want anymore, and I will pay for the shipping,,,?? Let's give this experiment a shot! OR better yet, bowlingboard.com send Ice the highest RG ball made! Purely for scientific research!! :rolleyes:

[RobLV1]

Bubba: If it works, don't fix it. There are so many variables involved in bowling styles that different things work for different people. My job as a coach, and more so as a bowling writer is to give advice based on the majoity of instances that I observe. In this way, I have the best chance of helping the most people possible - sight unseen.

Iceman: I've given away all of the balls that I no longer use. If you want to try a higher rg ball, you're either going to have to break down and buy one, or win another give-away.

[bubba809]

Bubba: If it works, don't fix it. There are so many variables involved in bowling styles that different things work for different people. My job as a coach, and more so as a bowling writer is to give advice based on the majoity of instances that I observe. In this way, I have the best chance of helping the most people possible - sight unseen.

Oh believe me, I still am always looking in ways to improve. I'm a rev dominant bowler so that would make sense why I need polish for low RG balls. Anytime I try to knock the polish off, I struggle to save that energy and the ball rolls out. Maybe a higher RG sanded finish would not do that.

[RobLV1]

Bubba: I just submitted my article for BTM for November. It should be up in the next couple of weeks. It deals with looking at the spaces between the balls in your arsenal based on your individual bowling style. I think it would be helpful for you.

[bubba809]

Bubba: I just submitted my article for BTM for November. It should be up in the next couple of weeks. It deals with looking at the spaces between the balls in your arsenal based on your individual bowling style. I think it would be helpful for you.

I think this is what I need and sounds very interesting.

Where can I find this article when it posts??

[MICHAEL]

I think this is what I need and sounds very interesting.

Where can I find this article when it posts??

I believe Rob post his articles in Hustler Magazine! Usually right behind the fold out! :rolleyes:

[RobLV1]

I think this is what I need and sounds very interesting.

Where can I find this article when it posts??

BowlingThisMonth.com. It's a subscription website that replaced the long-running magazine earlier this year.