No "Skid/Flip" ball in my arsenal?

[Aslan]

My coach looked at my arsenal today and said all it was missing was a ball with a skid/flip reaction.

Now, I always thought that to get that really angular backend…you kinda need a decent rev rate. Especially after buying my Encounters and going by the numbers…they should be "skid/flip", angular backend balls.

Columbia300 Encounter: RG = 2.50, Diff. = 0.052, Pearl cover stock.

But, if THAT isn't a "skid/flip" ball…then what IS?

According to BallVersity…a skid/flip ball has a high RG, a high Diff./flare potential, and a pearl or polished cover stock. So I looked at my "wish list" of balls to see if any "fit" that mold. Here's what I found:

Brunswick Mastermind: (2.54/0.052)
RotoGrip Totally Defiant: (2.49/0.054)
Hammer Black Widow Assassin: (2.50/0.058)
Brunswick Fortera Exile: (2.562/0.050)

The thing is, only the Fortera Exile is actually talked about as a skid/flip ball. And it has a lower Diff. than the Encounter.

Not sure what I think about that. I looked at the other 5 asymmetric, 16lb balls I have in the closet but none really have the ball reaction that I would call "skid/flip". I have a Track706a and a Radical Reaxx Pearl, but the Track only has a Diff. of 0.047 and the Reaxx Pearl an RG of only 2.482.

It's just odd that of all the thoughts I've had or heard about balls and ball technology and despite an arsenal of 6 balls…when I never planned on ever having more than 4-5 at a time…I'm now looking at a "hole" in my arsenal.

[striker12]

I have a kinetic pearl that's a skid/flip ball and it has a rg-2.46 and diff- .046

I will look into some bowling balls for you that are skid/flips



-hammer bad a ss: classed as a skid/flip rg-2.48 diff-.048

-Columbia 300 freeze pearl/hybrid: classed as skid/flips

-DV8 hooligan: classed as skid/flip rg- 2.55-2.59 diff- .040

-motiv octane: classed as skid/flip rg- 2.55 diff- .043

these where the only ones I could find on bowlingball.com some of the bowling balls never had the info on the breakpoints

[RobLV1]

My coach looked at my arsenal today and said all it was missing was a ball with a skid/flip reaction.

Now, I always thought that to get that really angular backend…you kinda need a decent rev rate. Especially after buying my Encounters and going by the numbers…they should be "skid/flip", angular backend balls.

Columbia300 Encounter: RG = 2.50, Diff. = 0.052, Pearl cover stock.

But, if THAT isn't a "skid/flip" ball…then what IS?

According to BallVersity…a skid/flip ball has a high RG, a high Diff./flare potential, and a pearl or polished cover stock. So I looked at my "wish list" of balls to see if any "fit" that mold. Here's what I found:

Brunswick Mastermind: (2.54/0.052)
RotoGrip Totally Defiant: (2.49/0.054)
Hammer Black Widow Assassin: (2.50/0.058)
Brunswick Fortera Exile: (2.562/0.050)

The thing is, only the Fortera Exile is actually talked about as a skid/flip ball. And it has a lower Diff. than the Encounter.

Not sure what I think about that. I looked at the other 5 asymmetric, 16lb balls I have in the closet but none really have the ball reaction that I would call "skid/flip". I have a Track706a and a Radical Reaxx Pearl, but the Track only has a Diff. of 0.047 and the Reaxx Pearl an RG of only 2.482.

It's just odd that of all the thoughts I've had or heard about balls and ball technology and despite an arsenal of 6 balls…when I never planned on ever having more than 4-5 at a time…I'm now looking at a "hole" in my arsenal.

The biggest factor in a ball with a skid/flip type of motion is the reactivity of the cover material (particularly in the friction). The lower your rev rate, the less difference the differential makes. In terms of the Brunswick balls that you have listed, be careful when you look at the Brunswick website, as they list both the high rg (rg max) and low rg (rg min). In both cases you have listed the high rg which is irrelevant. Most companies don't list the high rg because it is easy to calculate; just add the differential to the low rg to find the high rg. In the case of the Brunswick balls that you have listed, there is nothing skid/flippy about the Mastermind, however the Exile is very skid/flippy. Another ball you might want to look at is the Storm Optimus.

[MICHAEL]

My coach looked at my arsenal today and said all it was missing was a ball with a skid/flip reaction.

Now, I always thought that to get that really angular backend…you kinda need a decent rev rate. Especially after buying my Encounters and going by the numbers…they should be "skid/flip", angular backend balls.

Columbia300 Encounter: RG = 2.50, Diff. = 0.052, Pearl cover stock.

But, if THAT isn't a "skid/flip" ball…then what IS?

According to BallVersity…a skid/flip ball has a high RG, a high Diff./flare potential, and a pearl or polished cover stock. So I looked at my "wish list" of balls to see if any "fit" that mold. Here's what I found:

Brunswick Mastermind: (2.54/0.052)
RotoGrip Totally Defiant: (2.49/0.054)
Hammer Black Widow Assassin: (2.50/0.058)
Brunswick Fortera Exile: (2.562/0.050)

The thing is, only the Fortera Exile is actually talked about as a skid/flip ball. And it has a lower Diff. than the Encounter.

Not sure what I think about that. I looked at the other 5 asymmetric, 16lb balls I have in the closet but none really have the ball reaction that I would call "skid/flip". I have a Track706a and a Radical Reaxx Pearl, but the Track only has a Diff. of 0.047 and the Reaxx Pearl an RG of only 2.482.

It's just odd that of all the thoughts I've had or heard about balls and ball technology and despite an arsenal of 6 balls…when I never planned on ever having more than 4-5 at a time…I'm now looking at a "hole" in my arsenal.

4 or 5 despite my arsenal of 6 ball.... What about the TEN I saw, in that hot a sweaty pictures you posted! All 10 of them looked pretty satisfied, nestled comfortably in the center of your bed! What did you do, sell some of them beauties!!

Storm is somewhat noted for their skid and flip movement! I know most of my storm balls do that movement, including the two that gave me the best games of my life, the IQ pearl, butterscotch symmetrical, and the V.G. nanno, that I dug up out of storage recently, asymmetrical but nice skid and flip, unlike the arc the Deadly Aim gives me.

Maybe your not counting balls that have not come out of the closet!! Hey,,, its the 2014's!!!! Roll and let Roll!!!

[Mike White]

My coach looked at my arsenal today and said all it was missing was a ball with a skid/flip reaction.

Now, I always thought that to get that really angular backend…you kinda need a decent rev rate. Especially after buying my Encounters and going by the numbers…they should be "skid/flip", angular backend balls.

Columbia300 Encounter: RG = 2.50, Diff. = 0.052, Pearl cover stock.

But, if THAT isn't a "skid/flip" ball…then what IS?

According to BallVersity…a skid/flip ball has a high RG, a high Diff./flare potential, and a pearl or polished cover stock. So I looked at my "wish list" of balls to see if any "fit" that mold. Here's what I found:

Brunswick Mastermind: (2.54/0.052)
RotoGrip Totally Defiant: (2.49/0.054)
Hammer Black Widow Assassin: (2.50/0.058)
Brunswick Fortera Exile: (2.562/0.050)

The thing is, only the Fortera Exile is actually talked about as a skid/flip ball. And it has a lower Diff. than the Encounter.

Not sure what I think about that. I looked at the other 5 asymmetric, 16lb balls I have in the closet but none really have the ball reaction that I would call "skid/flip". I have a Track706a and a Radical Reaxx Pearl, but the Track only has a Diff. of 0.047 and the Reaxx Pearl an RG of only 2.482.

It's just odd that of all the thoughts I've had or heard about balls and ball technology and despite an arsenal of 6 balls…when I never planned on ever having more than 4-5 at a time…I'm now looking at a "hole" in my arsenal.

Based on watching you bowl, you have two kinds ball reactions... Skid/Skid, and Hook/Roll

When you are on any kind of oil, it's Skid/Skid

If the lanes are really dry, you get a short Hook, and a long (too long) Roll.

[Aslan]

It just seems rather odd to me that a true "skid/flip" ball would be so hard to find. All of the ones striker listed have differentials much lower than some of the balls I have in my arsenal now or in my closet in reserve.

The Exile by Brunswick is the only one I could find that actually states in it's advertisements that it IS a skid/flip ball.

And I just don't understand how the Encounter...is NOT a skid/flip ball. It has the RG/Diff numbers and is a pearl cover stock with an assymetric core. It used to be Columbia's pro-performance Pearl ball in the Encounter line. So if it's NOT a skid/flip...then did Columbia not even HAVE a skid/flip ball in 2013??

Don't get me wrong...I'd LOVE to win an Exile and experience the "magic" of "skid/flip"...but I can't justify increasing my arsenal to 7 balls. I have the capacity to add a joey to the 4-ball bag and carry a 7th without upgrading my bag situation...but even as far back as when I started bowling in mid-2013...I contend that an amateur bowler really doesn't need more than maybe 4 balls to be competitive. At some point, changes to your game, line, release, approach MUST be part of the GAME. It can't be just an endless supply of bowling balls and hours of practice before a match to determine which of the 12-ball arsenal requires the least amount of work by you the bowler. What kind of sport is that?

It'll be interesting. I have more to say that is coaching related but I'll start another thread.

[dnhoffman]

Holy walls of text!

Get a Yeti Untamed, roll the ball onto the lane at the foul line, don't squeeze the damn ball, give it time to rev up, and it will skid/flip regardless of your rev rate,... I've seen your videos - remember that balls don't rev up in the air... You gotta lay that thing down and roll it.

[RobLV1]

It just seems rather odd to me that a true "skid/flip" ball would be so hard to find. All of the ones striker listed have differentials much lower than some of the balls I have in my arsenal now or in my closet in reserve.

The Exile by Brunswick is the only one I could find that actually states in it's advertisements that it IS a skid/flip ball.

And I just don't understand how the Encounter...is NOT a skid/flip ball. It has the RG/Diff numbers and is a pearl cover stock with an assymetric core. It used to be Columbia's pro-performance Pearl ball in the Encounter line. So if it's NOT a skid/flip...then did Columbia not even HAVE a skid/flip ball in 2013??

Don't get me wrong...I'd LOVE to win an Exile and experience the "magic" of "skid/flip"...but I can't justify increasing my arsenal to 7 balls. I have the capacity to add a joey to the 4-ball bag and carry a 7th without upgrading my bag situation...but even as far back as when I started bowling in mid-2013...I contend that an amateur bowler really doesn't need more than maybe 4 balls to be competitive. At some point, changes to your game, line, release, approach MUST be part of the GAME. It can't be just an endless supply of bowling balls and hours of practice before a match to determine which of the 12-ball arsenal requires the least amount of work by you the bowler. What kind of sport is that?

It'll be interesting. I have more to say that is coaching related but I'll start another thread.

What part of "it's mainly related to the cover don't you understand"? You keep talking about differential like a high differential is going to make a ball skid/flippy. It's not. A high differential just determines how much the core is going to "wobble" within the ball creating more flare potential. Whether the ball flares a lot or not, it's how much traction it finds when it hits friction that determines how much it flips. Columbia is not known for skid/flip reactions, and nor is Brunswick. The Exile is unchartered territory for Brunswick, a company known for producing "rolly" balls that read the oil very well and don't over-react to the friction. I'd love to know how it's selling.

[Aslan]

What part of "it's mainly related to the cover don't you understand"? You keep talking about differential like a high differential is going to make a ball skid/flippy. It's not. A high differential just determines how much the core is going to "wobble" within the ball creating more flare potential. Whether the ball flares a lot or not, it's how much traction it finds when it hits friction that determines how much it flips. Columbia is not known for skid/flip reactions, and nor is Brunswick. The Exile is unchartered territory for Brunswick, a company known for producing "rolly" balls that read the oil very well and don't over-react to the friction. I'd love to know how it's selling.

I understand that the cover stock is an essential component to skid/flip. It needs to be a pearl and it needs to be shiny. And it probably needs to be rather aggressive. But where there is a disconnect…is that the Encounter is a Pearl. The Slingshot is a Pearl. Neither of them are skid/flip.

I have always believed (and sort of still do) that you can't truly get an angular back end reaction without a > 250 rev rate. It's just physics. BUT…I admit I'm not 100% on the various cover stocks and how they differ. It just strikes me as odd that a bowling ball manufacturer would make an entire line of pro performance bowling balls and leave out a skid/flip ball. What do they tell their pros? "It's okay, just throw an Exile"?

IF I were to fill in that gap…which I am pretty sure I'm not going to because I'm about at my limit of what I want to carry around with me to league night and sport league. BUT…WHEN I win the VBT…I DO get a $25 gift certificate…sooooo…I was thinking of getting a Storm Gizmo…but I already have a training wrist brace. I was thinking maybe some abralon pads…maybe a bowling glove. But maybe I get the Exile! I hate paying more than $79 for a bowling ball though. But, maybe.

[striker12]

aslan if you want a skid/flip ball for a cheap price go with the freeze pearl or hybrid.

here in Canada it costs like $150-170 drilled with thumb slug and finger grips.

then in the US it would be a lot cheaper then that the freeze is a great ball its the ball I shot 8 strikes in a row and finished with a 234 because I went.

open/spare/spare/open/x/x/x/x/x/xxx

also shot a 265 with it but I doubles spared in the 5th and 6th and on last shot in 10th only got 8 pins

[RobLV1]

I understand that the cover stock is an essential component to skid/flip. It needs to be a pearl and it needs to be shiny. And it probably needs to be rather aggressive. But where there is a disconnect…is that the Encounter is a Pearl. The Slingshot is a Pearl. Neither of them are skid/flip.

I have always believed (and sort of still do) that you can't truly get an angular back end reaction without a > 250 rev rate. It's just physics. BUT…I admit I'm not 100% on the various cover stocks and how they differ. It just strikes me as odd that a bowling ball manufacturer would make an entire line of pro performance bowling balls and leave out a skid/flip ball. What do they tell their pros? "It's okay, just throw an Exile"?

IF I were to fill in that gap…which I am pretty sure I'm not going to because I'm about at my limit of what I want to carry around with me to league night and sport league. BUT…WHEN I win the VBT…I DO get a $25 gift certificate…sooooo…I was thinking of getting a Storm Gizmo…but I already have a training wrist brace. I was thinking maybe some abralon pads…maybe a bowling glove. But maybe I get the Exile! I hate paying more than $79 for a bowling ball though. But, maybe.

Perhaps the disconnect lies in what you are looking for. It's not so much about rev rate (though that does enter the equation to a degree) as it is about axis rotation. You don't have much axis rotation, so when you throw a skid/flip ball, you're not going to see a big change of direction. "Skid/Flip" just means that the ball is going to skid more in the oil, and react harder to the friction. Without much axis rotation, that reaction to the friction is not going to make the ball turn left, it's just going to jump forward harder. Try to ignore the smell of the money that's burning a hole in your pocket, and save up to get a ball that you really want, instead of just buying one that's cheap.

[Amyers]

I understand that the cover stock is an essential component to skid/flip. It needs to be a pearl and it needs to be shiny. And it probably needs to be rather aggressive. But where there is a disconnect…is that the Encounter is a Pearl. The Slingshot is a Pearl. Neither of them are skid/flip.

I have always believed (and sort of still do) that you can't truly get an angular back end reaction without a > 250 rev rate. It's just physics. BUT…I admit I'm not 100% on the various cover stocks and how they differ. It just strikes me as odd that a bowling ball manufacturer would make an entire line of pro performance bowling balls and leave out a skid/flip ball. What do they tell their pros? "It's okay, just throw an Exile"?

IF I were to fill in that gap…which I am pretty sure I'm not going to because I'm about at my limit of what I want to carry around with me to league night and sport league. BUT…WHEN I win the VBT…I DO get a $25 gift certificate…sooooo…I was thinking of getting a Storm Gizmo…but I already have a training wrist brace. I was thinking maybe some abralon pads…maybe a bowling glove. But maybe I get the Exile! I hate paying more than $79 for a bowling ball though. But, maybe.

Just because a ball dosen't list skid/flip in the intro doesn't mean that it is not a skid/flip ball. I think a lot of manufactures especially ones know for making that type of equipment don't market their equipment that way. You generally see it in the intro's of companies who are not known for making that kind of ball i.e. Brunswick Fortera

[Aslan]

Perhaps the disconnect lies in what you are looking for. It's not so much about rev rate (though that does enter the equation to a degree) as it is about axis rotation. You don't have much axis rotation, so when you throw a skid/flip ball, you're not going to see a big change of direction. "Skid/Flip" just means that the ball is going to skid more in the oil, and react harder to the friction. Without much axis rotation, that reaction to the friction is not going to make the ball turn left, it's just going to jump forward harder. Try to ignore the smell of the money that's burning a hole in your pocket, and save up to get a ball that you really want, instead of just buying one that's cheap.

1) When we meet next, I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised in terms of my new release and axis tilt. I am still working hard on it so I haven't even had time to shoot some video nor re-calculate the rev rate, etc...
2) My ball buying days are on hold. Thats one reason why I'm really resisting the urge to just "buy a skid/flip ball". I have 5 strike balls that all give me a different look into the pocket. Even if I were to do something completely NUTS like enter the USBC Open....thats TOTALLY ENOUGH balls.

It's just annoying that I did careful planning to ensure a relatively balanced arsenal and then I find out the cover stock on the Bullet Train is so dang strong that the polished/less aggressive Encounter is now my ball "down" option. I thought I could get away with using the Rhythm as a ball down but after working on the arsenal during my lesson Wednesday it was more apparent (as MWhite eluded to) that the Rhythm was burning out because it wanted to hook much sooner with the solid cover stock.

And THAT explains some of my issues statistically.

- I was starting with the Slingshot on a fresh pattern. It was going too long. It was hitting light...it was leaving washouts.
- So I would ball UP to something like the more aggressive (surface/drilled) Encounter.

BUT-
1) It was usually FAR too late to salvage my series (game 3 or later).
2) I would usually move IN (12-14) rather than stay OUT (8-11) when I switched to the Encounter because I was afraid the Encounter would react TOO much on the outside.

- Then I'd start striking more, but it was too little too late, and I'd also increase my split %.

Even when I used the more aggressive Encounter to start or the Rhythm;
- I'd have a good first game (195ish) and then start hitting through the head or the ball would burn out too soon and I'd be back in the 165ish range trying to adjust laterally and vertically rather than just reach in the bag and pull out the Frantic.

What I SHOULD have been doing is figured out not which ball covers more boards...but where each ball hooks. I then would have started out with the Rhythm (which is the ball I was having a LOT of success with before changing things up) either up the 8, 10, or 12-13 boards...picking a line where it didn't hook too soon and burn out...and giving myself the most miss room. If I saw it start to hit too left...I could make a quick adjustment...but if it didn't work...IMMEDIATELY switch to the more aggressive Encounter on that SAME line. Not switch balls AND lines.

At least thats the new, revised strategy. I know YOU probably don't like the idea of limiting it too near to the track. But like I touched on in the coaching thread...I'm not totally sold on this new system either because I don't like (or more accurately am not 'comfortable') with a few things:
1) Not allowing the lanes to dictate how you play them and "forcing" your comfort zone. <----I think you'll agree here.
2) Not expanding my game to really develop an Inside, Outside, and middle/track game. I've always felt you need 3 lines and 3 speeds.
3) I'm not sure I like starting with the most aggressive ball EVERY time. The 'benchmark' concept gives me more options...although I can now see it also gives me some limitations.
4) I really don't like the trend towards "arsenal bowling" where bowlers become too dependent on their equipment. I realize it's easier to change a ball than a release/approach. But I also see a LOT of arsenal bowlers that never learn things like horizontal AND vertical movements because they simply spend the whole night cycling between balls trying to find magic in a bottle. And at the end of the night shrug their shoulders and say, "The lanes were messed up. None of my balls worked."


aslan if you want a skid/flip ball for a cheap price go with the freeze pearl or hybrid.


Sorry striker...but thats NOT a skid/flip ball. From what I can tell, it would have the length but not the snap. Most noticeable, it's a symmetric core. I've never seen a skid/flip ball with a symmetric core. Symmetric cores are renowned for their ability to smooth that arc/angle out.

Thanks All!

[Amyers]

A few things hear your new ball strategy sounds a lot like things I have been saying for a while. Skid/flip has nothing to do with symmetric/asymmetric (asymmetric balls tend to have more midlane read the opposite of skid/flip. For instance the Hyroad pearl and Hysteria two of the more skid flip balls both symmetric. The Fortera Exile is more the odd ball being skid/flip and asymmetric. Maybe for now you are better suited to developing the outside game before moving farther in to work on the middle and inside game.

[Aslan]

A few things hear your new ball strategy sounds a lot like things I have been saying for a while. Skid/flip has nothing to do with symmetric/asymmetric (asymmetric balls tend to have more midlane read the opposite of skid/flip. For instance the Hyroad pearl and Hysteria two of the more skid flip balls both symmetric. The Fortera Exile is more the odd ball being skid/flip and asymmetric. Maybe for now you are better suited to developing the outside game before moving farther in to work on the middle and inside game.

Wel, I'll agree and disagree.

A "skid/flip" ball should generally have a assymetric core because the angular back end needs a more sudden change of direction. Symmetric cores are almost always designed to give a bowler a smooth arc. Some go longer than others and you also need that aggressive cover stock as Rob has mentioned. I've never seen a Hysteria thrown...but I've not seen a Hy Road Pearl act in a skid/flip way.

That being said, the closest thing I have to a skid/flip...based on visible reaction...is my Slingshot. It "shouldn't be". It's got a symmetric core, a low Diff., and an entry level cover stock. But, it does go very long before reading the friction and does have a bit of "jump" at the end. Thats why I switched to a plastic ball for spares. The Slingshot, on lanes with extremely dry outsides, the dang Slinghshot would "bounce" as if it it a nickel on the lane...and costed me some 10-pins. With my new release...forget about it...it no longer goes straight when it hits friction.

Where I'll agree that you were right is...you were the first one to question why I was using the Slingshot as my strike ball. It turns out...that may have been one of the more serious contributors to my recent issues. I was trying to make that ball do something it wasn't designed to do. Looking back at some of those series...I see plain as day that the ball wasn't reading early enough and I just kept fighting it. On sport patterns...FOUR games...suddenly I'd throw a 191 game because the lanes finally broke down enough where it would work. So I'd average 155 when had I made a better arsenal decision to start...maybe I average 190.

[RobLV1]

Wel, I'll agree and disagree.

A "skid/flip" ball should generally have a assymetric core because the angular back end needs a more sudden change of direction. Symmetric cores are almost always designed to give a bowler a smooth arc. Some go longer than others and you also need that aggressive cover stock as Rob has mentioned. I've never seen a Hysteria thrown...but I've not seen a Hy Road Pearl act in a skid/flip way.

That being said, the closest thing I have to a skid/flip...based on visible reaction...is my Slingshot. It "shouldn't be". It's got a symmetric core, a low Diff., and an entry level cover stock. But, it does go very long before reading the friction and does have a bit of "jump" at the end. Thats why I switched to a plastic ball for spares. The Slingshot, on lanes with extremely dry outsides, the dang Slinghshot would "bounce" as if it it a nickel on the lane...and costed me some 10-pins. With my new release...forget about it...it no longer goes straight when it hits friction.

Where I'll agree that you were right is...you were the first one to question why I was using the Slingshot as my strike ball. It turns out...that may have been one of the more serious contributors to my recent issues. I was trying to make that ball do something it wasn't designed to do. Looking back at some of those series...I see plain as day that the ball wasn't reading early enough and I just kept fighting it. On sport patterns...FOUR games...suddenly I'd throw a 191 game because the lanes finally broke down enough where it would work. So I'd average 155 when had I made a better arsenal decision to start...maybe I average 190.

So here you go again with the symmetric vs. asymmetric and differential references to finding a skid/ball. Do you just like to argue? You yourself said the your Slingshot has the most skid/flip reaction you've seen, and it's an entry level ball. You proved that it's all about surface with your own observation, yet you continue with the core nonsense. Please, do me a favor. Since you obviously are developing an arsenal, take the time to at least learn the basics about bowling balls: the higher the low rg, the more resistance there is to the ball revving up, so the further it goes down the lane, the differential is the difference between the high rg and the low rg - the higher the differential is, the more flare potential the ball has, and the lower your rev rate is, the less flare you're going to get regardless of the balls flare potential. The layout is how the core is positioned within the ball, and the layout determines the actual rg and differential, though it does not vary that much from those numbers on the undrilled ball. If you understood any of this, you wouldn't be at all surprised that the Slingshot wasn't the right ball to use on fresh oil, just based on the fact that it has an rg of 2.58 that puts it at the very top of the useable range of "real" bowling balls. This is a great place to learn about bowling balls, just ask instead of trying to figure it all out based on your own observations. There are many of us who will be glad to help you to learn.

[Amyers]

Definition of a Skid Flip Ball.

Higher RG- Why the ball has to get farther done the lane before hooking

Strong cover stock- Cover has to be strong to break the ball out of it skid

High grit finish or polished- To store the energy the ball will need to break at the end most will have 4000 or polished finish

Typically symmetric core- Asymmetric cores are designed to make the ball roll earlier in heavier oil (there are exceptions to this Fortera Exile and Ruckus Schinzo off the top of my head sure there are more)

Its hard to get more skid flip than a Hyroad pearl goes longer and snaps back more than anything I can think of. I'm sure there are exceptions to all of these I am speaking in general here. If anyone else can think of additional things to add please do or correct me if I'm wrong about something.

[bubba809]

I have an asymmetric Jet Black Taboo (RG 2.50 Diff .060) drilled pin up with high balance hole. Surface is at 500/2000 with a good coat of polish.

Most Skid/Flip ball I've ever used...and I used A LOT of surfaces on many balls.

Most surprising...it's VERY controllable.

[RobLV1]

Definition of a Skid Flip Ball.

Higher RG- Why the ball has to get farther done the lane before hooking

Strong cover stock- Cover has to be strong to break the ball out of it skid

High grit finish or polished- To store the energy the ball will need to break at the end most will have 4000 or polished finish

Typically symmetric core- Asymmetric cores are designed to make the ball roll earlier in heavier oil (there are exceptions to this Fortera Exile and Ruckus Schinzo off the top of my head sure there are more)

Its hard to get more skid flip than a Hyroad pearl goes longer and snaps back more than anything I can think of. I'm sure there are exceptions to all of these I am speaking in general here. If anyone else can think of additional things to add please do or correct me if I'm wrong about something.

The Exile actually has a fairly low rg at 2.51, yet it is very skid/flippy bases soley on the reactivity of the cover material and the finish that is applied to the ball. Storm's Zero Gravity has an asymmetric core and a low rg of 2.55 to get it down the lane. The Hyroad Pearl certainly has the characteristics to make it skid/flippy, particularly if it is polished and uses a layout that will promote a skid/flip reaction.

[Aslan]

Rob-

I agree with like 95% of what you're saying. You always think people are being disagreeable if they don't fall in line with that last 5%!!!

Where I'm either disagreeing or maybe just confused...is that in NUMEROUS videos, literature, blogs, forums, etc.. there is a belief that a symmetric core has a smooth, arcing roll. And assymetric core a less smooth, less predictable arc/angle. If you are saying that is NOT the case...okay. Then you disagree. But your entire response, you didn't really address the difference between an assymetric and symmetric core...nor a "stronger" versus "weaker" core.

Like I said, all of what you said regarding the ball I think are spot on...but the difference in opinion is about how the core itself interacts with that process. Not the differential...not the RG....those things are exactly what you said. I'm simply asking about the core itself in terms of symmetric vs assymetric...and "strong" versus "weak".

I've found ONE ball that in it's advertisement blatently states it is a skid/flip ball and that is the Exile*. I seems to have the marketing, RG, DIff, core, and cover stock that all line up together to make a ball that I would, according to my understanding, say is a "skid/flip" ball. Amyers is talking about a symmetic Hy Road and Striker about a Columbia Freeze. Neither of these balls compare favorably in terms of numbers to the Exile:

Bruinswick Fortera Exile: RG = 2.537, Diff. = 0.050, Core = assymetric, cover stock = shiny pearl. PerfectScale = 229.7.

Columbia Freeze: RG = 2.560, Diff. = 0.047, Core = symmetric, cover stock = shiny pearl. PerfectScale = 168.5.

Storm Hy Road Pearl: RG = 2.57, Diff. = 0.046, Core = symmetric, cover stock = shiny pearl. PerfectScale = 188.6.

As to marketing, I will admit that the Hy Road Pearl does market it as long and a strong backend. So it DOES market it as essentially a skid/flip*. And I've never seen anyone throw either the Hysteria or Hy Road Pearl. I've seen a lot of people throw the Hy Road and a couple the Hy Road Solid...but not the Pearl.

But, I guess the point was options and discussion about a "skid/flip" ball and thats what we're doing. Amyers also added the option of the Hy Road Pearl which I now see IS marketed as essentially skid/flip...so good job Amyers! For some reason I thought you were talking about the standard Hy Road.

[Amyers]

Rob-

I agree with like 95% of what you're saying. You always think people are being disagreeable if they don't fall in line with that last 5%!!!

Where I'm either disagreeing or maybe just confused...is that in NUMEROUS videos, literature, blogs, forums, etc.. there is a belief that a symmetric core has a smooth, arcing roll. And assymetric core a less smooth, less predictable arc/angle. If you are saying that is NOT the case...okay. Then you disagree. But your entire response, you didn't really address the difference between an assymetric and symmetric core...nor a "stronger" versus "weaker" core.

Like I said, all of what you said regarding the ball I think are spot on...but the difference in opinion is about how the core itself interacts with that process. Not the differential...not the RG....those things are exactly what you said. I'm simply asking about the core itself in terms of symmetric vs assymetric...and "strong" versus "weak".

I've found ONE ball that in it's advertisement blatently states it is a skid/flip ball and that is the Exile*. I seems to have the marketing, RG, DIff, core, and cover stock that all line up together to make a ball that I would, according to my understanding, say is a "skid/flip" ball. Amyers is talking about a symmetic Hy Road and Striker about a Columbia Freeze. Neither of these balls compare favorably in terms of numbers to the Exile:

Bruinswick Fortera Exile: RG = 2.537, Diff. = 0.050, Core = assymetric, cover stock = shiny pearl. PerfectScale = 229.7.

Columbia Freeze: RG = 2.560, Diff. = 0.047, Core = symmetric, cover stock = shiny pearl. PerfectScale = 168.5.

Storm Hy Road Pearl: RG = 2.57, Diff. = 0.046, Core = symmetric, cover stock = shiny pearl. PerfectScale = 188.6.

As to marketing, I will admit that the Hy Road Pearl does market it as long and a strong backend. So it DOES market it as essentially a skid/flip*. And I've never seen anyone throw either the Hysteria or Hy Road Pearl. I've seen a lot of people throw the Hy Road and a couple the Hy Road Solid...but not the Pearl.

But, I guess the point was options and discussion about a "skid/flip" ball and thats what we're doing. Amyers also added the option of the Hy Road Pearl which I now see IS marketed as essentially skid/flip...so good job Amyers! For some reason I thought you were talking about the standard Hy Road.

Yeah more with the pearl and definitely not the solid Hyroad. Some people don't like skid/flip ball reactions so I think that is why you don't really see it in the advertising. The purpose I have been told with asymmetrical cores is to make the ball roll earlier and give more mid lane read which is useful on more heavily oiled conditions. I could be incorrect with that as I don't own any and most of the balls I see people throw tend to be symmetrical. I think Rob is correct in that it has more to do with the cover than the cores but having a core that rends to go longer I would think makes it more likely to get that reaction.

All three of the balls you listed have the propensity to be skid flip the biggest differences is going to be strength of the reaction and how much oil they will handle. If all you wanted was skid/flip (not sure why you would) might not make a bad arsenal. Exile, Hyroad Pearl, and Freeze in order of strength

[Aslan]

My understanding of a core...and this MAY be wrong....DISCLAIMER!!....

Is a core is kinda like if you get a pair of scissors. Some scissors have the same size holes for the finger and thumb. These are symmetric scissors. Many scissors have a bigger hole for the thumb and aren't symmetric.

If you put your pointing finger in the finger hole and "spin/rotate" the scissors around in a circle (careful not to hurt yourself)....the motion will be very uniform. If you take the same finger and put it in the finger hole for the non-symmetric scissors (with the bigger thumb hole)....and rotate/spin them around (also careful not to hurt yourself), you will "feel" that the weight isn't balanced and it won't rotate as smoothly around.

As far as I know, a bowling ball works the same way. If you have no core, or a small core, or a symmetric core...the ball rotates around that core in a very predictable manner with a more slight change of dirrection. If you have a core that is oddly shaped and bigger...you have the other end of the spectrum where the ball is wanting to pull itself harder and less predictably into the direction of the spin/axis rotation. So once that ball gets friction...the symmetric core should give it a smooth change of direction. An assymetric ball is gonna be more "jerky" which theoretically will lead to a more abrupt turn...yet less predictable.

Lets see if my hypothesis is correct (text in italics is borrowed from other sources. I will do my best to site those sources):

Symmetric vs Asymmetric Bowling Balls

Understanding symmetric versus asymmetric bowling balls can be a help in selecting your next bowling ball. Bowling ball symmetry varies from ball to ball based upon certain factors engineered into the ball construction process. Familiarizing yourself with symmetric versus asymmetric bowling balls is also a step in understanding bowling ball motion.

Let's examine the primary differences between symmetric and asymmetric balls:

1. Symmetrical Core (undrilled) - A ball where the RG (radius of gyration) values of the Y (high RG) and Z (intermediate RG) axes of the ball do not differ by more than 5% of the total differential of the ball.

2. Asymmetrical Core (undrilled) - A ball where the RG (radius of gyration) values of the Y (high RG) and Z (intermediate RG) axes of the ball differ by more than 5% of the total differential of the ball.

Symmetrical drilled balls yield small differential ratios. Small differential ratios will produce a smooth, controllable motion when compared to an asymmetrical ball.

Asymmetrical drilled balls show a defined, angular motion. These balls can create more area at the break point and will respond to friction faster at the break point than symmetrical balls.
- bowlingball.com

Episode 84 of TalkBowling mentioned similar points and added that assymetric can sometimes be more succeptible to changesinconsistent release.

Randy Pederson in his video "Bowling Ball Selection for the Tournament Bowler" repeated many of those points but added that a higher RG is going to go longer (and why that is) and an assymetric core is going to react in a more pronounced way when it reads friction.

Asymmetrical drilled balls show a defined, angular motion. These balls can create more area at the break point and will respond to friction faster at the break point than symmetrical balls.- Bowling Concurrent Website

The combination of a high RG ball coupled with high differential ratings and with a stiff or pearl coverstock will yield the "skid-flip" ball motion you seek. Also, using a drill pattern to create a long skid and sharp hook ball motion will augment the coverstock and core design properties and help you get the ball reaction you seek. - bowlingball.com

1. No, you don't have to be a high rev player to benefit from a skid/flip ball reaction. You do, however, need to be aware that skid/flip balls are designed to skid in the oil and react hard to the friction. This pretty much means that you have to make sure that you are finding oil to get the ball down the lane before it finds friction. If you play to far outside and find friction too early, the ball will hook early, lose energy, and hit like a marshmallow.
2. The fact that you are speed dominant, and aware of the fact, will simply limit the range of balls from which you have to choose. The low rg is the determining factor. As a speed dominant player, you should find a ball that is in the mid rg range, from 2.51 to 2.55 to get assistance from the ball in revving up a little earlier than a high rg ball. The Marauder Mutiny should be a good choice with an rg of 2.524.
3. Thanks for asking this question. Most any ball driller can tell you horror stories about customers who come in to buy a ball about which they've already made up their minds, a ball that is designed to roll early and smooth, and tell the driller to lay it out to go long and snap. If you want a ball to go long and snap, then buy a ball that was designed to go long and snap. Think of the layout as the transmission on a motor vehicle. If you take a dump truck and put in a transmission that is designed for a race car, you still have a dump truck. If you want a race care, then buy one. The same is true for bowling balls. - Rob Mautner, "Skid/Flip Balls" from BowlingIntel.com

Another site had people list the top skid/flip balls from 2012/2013 and the notables were:

1) Rotogrip Shatter
2) Brunswick Nexxxus f(P+S)
3) 900Global Dirty Look
4) Hammer First Blood
5) Ebonite Cyclone

The most common ball mentioned for the best skid/flip is the Marvel Pearl.

NOT arguing...just providing more information from all over the Net/Interweb for everyone's knowledge/interest.

[RobLV1]

Rob-

I agree with like 95% of what you're saying. You always think people are being disagreeable if they don't fall in line with that last 5%!!!

Where I'm either disagreeing or maybe just confused...is that in NUMEROUS videos, literature, blogs, forums, etc.. there is a belief that a symmetric core has a smooth, arcing roll. And assymetric core a less smooth, less predictable arc/angle. If you are saying that is NOT the case...okay. Then you disagree. But your entire response, you didn't really address the difference between an assymetric and symmetric core...nor a "stronger" versus "weaker" core.

Like I said, all of what you said regarding the ball I think are spot on...but the difference in opinion is about how the core itself interacts with that process. Not the differential...not the RG....those things are exactly what you said. I'm simply asking about the core itself in terms of symmetric vs assymetric...and "strong" versus "weak".

I've found ONE ball that in it's advertisement blatently states it is a skid/flip ball and that is the Exile*. I seems to have the marketing, RG, DIff, core, and cover stock that all line up together to make a ball that I would, according to my understanding, say is a "skid/flip" ball. Amyers is talking about a symmetic Hy Road and Striker about a Columbia Freeze. Neither of these balls compare favorably in terms of numbers to the Exile:

Bruinswick Fortera Exile: RG = 2.537, Diff. = 0.050, Core = assymetric, cover stock = shiny pearl. PerfectScale = 229.7.

Columbia Freeze: RG = 2.560, Diff. = 0.047, Core = symmetric, cover stock = shiny pearl. PerfectScale = 168.5.

Storm Hy Road Pearl: RG = 2.57, Diff. = 0.046, Core = symmetric, cover stock = shiny pearl. PerfectScale = 188.6.

As to marketing, I will admit that the Hy Road Pearl does market it as long and a strong backend. So it DOES market it as essentially a skid/flip*. And I've never seen anyone throw either the Hysteria or Hy Road Pearl. I've seen a lot of people throw the Hy Road and a couple the Hy Road Solid...but not the Pearl.

But, I guess the point was options and discussion about a "skid/flip" ball and thats what we're doing. Amyers also added the option of the Hy Road Pearl which I now see IS marketed as essentially skid/flip...so good job Amyers! For some reason I thought you were talking about the standard Hy Road.

What we have here is a failure to communicate, or, more specifically, a difference in difinging terms. When we talk about a "stronger" ball, we are normally referring to a ball that covers more boards, or, more precisely, a ball that rolls earlier. When you talk about a ball with an asymmetric core providing a "stronger" reaction, I think you are probably talking about an increase in the amount of hook angle. When you are referring to a high rev player with a lot of axis rotation then, yes, an asymmetrically-core ball will give him more hook angle. For the rest of us, a ball with an asymmetrical core may give us 5% more hook angle, but it will also magnify our release mistakes by at least 50%. Is 5% more angle on perfect shots worth 50% larger errors on less than perfect shots worth it to you? If it is, then run out and find all the balls with asymmetrical cores that you can, and spend eight hours a day, seven days a week, perfecting your release.

[MICHAEL]

A lot of talk about surface of ball! I did an experiment with the two Deadly-Aims the other day! I put them on the spinner and did the factory surface on both. The only difference being the WAY THEY were DRILLED. I took them both to league today, to see the difference!

The deadly aim the Rob gave Iceman still has a skid and flip shortly before entering the pocket! Its a nice move that I like sometimes depending on the oil.

Iceman's original Deadly Aim with the same surface still has that nice gradual arc to the pocket!

So with this experiment, I have found out that surface does not make both balls roll to the pocket in the same manner!

I will post a picture of each ball and their pin positions and balance holes!

How a ball is drilled, and maybe even how big, and where the balance hole is, DOES make a big difference as far as I can see, with surfaces being equal!

[Aslan]

@Rob- See...I agree with ALL of that!!

@Ice- A "skid/flip" ball is generally not a hybrid cover stock. The cover stock solid and hybrid generally read the lanes earlier....a skid flip you generally want to go longer and thus they are usually Pearls.

IF I were to add a skid/flip ball...which I really don't think is overly necessary unless my current coach insists or talks me into it...

I would really like to add something I already have.

And IF the Encounter isn't a good skid/flip ball (despite it having measurements and marketng that elludes to it going long and snapping)...

The best two choices of the balls I have....from what I'm seeing/reading...are:

The Track706a OR the Radical Reax Pearl. And the Reax Pearl has the added advantage of not only it being shiny (4000 versus the 2000 of the Encounter and 706a) but it also has a higher PerfectScale rating AND is newer and I'm assuming will have a more aggressive cover. The downside is the original Reax Pearl got a bit of a bad wrap because Radical quickly released a Reax Version 2 which many people rumored was because the orignal Reax Pearl wasn't quite as good as planned.

[Aslan]

AHow a ball is drilled, and maybe even how big, and where the balance hole is, DOES make a big difference as far as I can see, with surfaces being equal!

Just for debate; I have video evidence that would refute the hypothesis that a change in drilling has a noticeable effect on ball motion. And numerous studies have been done by the USBC and others that have confirmed surface is about 70-90% of ball motion change effectiveness is surface/cover.

I just need to shoot the last portion of the video that shows the surface change and how the ball reaction DID change when the surface was changed. I haven't gotten around to that yet.

There is also some question as to just HOW DIFFERENT my two bowling balls were drilled....and thats a complicated topic. My instructions to MWhite (bowling ball driller to the Stars) was to not only drill them differently...but also keep them legal and make them USEABLE despite my lack of skill. That last one was a tall order, I admit.

[Mike White]

Just for debate; I have video evidence that would refute the hypothesis that a change in drilling has a noticeable effect on ball motion. And numerous studies have been done by the USBC and others that have confirmed surface is about 70-90% of ball motion change effectiveness is surface/cover.

I just need to shoot the last portion of the video that shows the surface change and how the ball reaction DID change when the surface was changed. I haven't gotten around to that yet.

There is also some question as to just HOW DIFFERENT my two bowling balls were drilled....and thats a complicated topic. My instructions to MWhite (bowling ball driller to the Stars) was to not only drill them differently...but also keep them legal and make them USEABLE despite my lack of skill. That last one was a tall order, I admit.

There is serious problems with your video evidence.

Lets say one drill pattern makes your ball hook 20% more.

With one ball, it might hook 30 boards for me, and the other ball would hook 36 boards.

For your release, you might get 5 boards of hook, so using the second ball, you would get 6 boards.

That one extra board is indistinguishable due to your inconsistency of hitting your target line.

[MICHAEL]

Just for debate; I have video evidence that would refute the hypothesis that a change in drilling has a noticeable effect on ball motion. And numerous studies have been done by the USBC and others that have confirmed surface is about 70-90% of ball motion change effectiveness is surface/cover.

I just need to shoot the last portion of the video that shows the surface change and how the ball reaction DID change when the surface was changed. I haven't gotten around to that yet.

There is also some question as to just HOW DIFFERENT my two bowling balls were drilled....and thats a complicated topic. My instructions to MWhite (bowling ball driller to the Stars) was to not only drill them differently...but also keep them legal and make them USEABLE despite my lack of skill. That last one was a tall order, I admit.


I am not going to argue with YOU!!! The ball that ROB gave me has a long skid, and then flip the last few feet! The ball I purchased, with the same surface, does NOT FLIP, but rather moves in a long steady movement!

DRILLING DOES MAKE a difference along with the placement of balance hole ... MY Deadly-Aims proved it to ICE!!

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/NIusM_zpscim0jnxg.gif (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/NIusM_zpscim0jnxg.gif.html)

Even the Dude was present and noticed the difference, in skid length, and flip at the end!

[Aslan]

There is serious problems with your video evidence.

Lets say one drill pattern makes your ball hook 20% more.

With one ball, it might hook 30 boards for me, and the other ball would hook 36 boards.

For your release, you might get 5 boards of hook, so using the second ball, you would get 6 boards.

That one extra board is indistinguishable due to your inconsistency of hitting your target line.

ding ding ding ding!! I bet not even Rob would argue with you there!!

BUT....even with a very low rev release...I bet a sanded ball moves more than a polished one! Right?

[fortheloveofbowling]

Mr Aslan,

1) Do you know your pap position?
2) Do you have access to a pro shop operator that knows his product line and has a grasp on laying out a ball?
3) Does this guy know your game and can he watch you throw the ball before recommending a layout?

It is hard enough to get a ball to do exactly what you want but without a educated guy on the drill chances become less. We can all look at the numbers on a ball and think that will do the job but the wrong drill and you end up not getting what you want. Believe me, i have purchased many balls that did not quite turn out the way i wanted and most every time is was my fault because it was my layout. My driller and i have my layouts and what i like to see as far as motion figured out pretty well now but you have to start with the right ball as well. Find a pro shop guy that knows your game and knows what he is doing and stick with him.

[RobLV1]

ding ding ding ding!! I bet not even Rob would argue with you there!!

BUT....even with a very low rev release...I bet a sanded ball moves more than a polished one! Right?

A sanded ball moves more in the oil than a polished one, but a polished ball moves more in the friction, so who's to say?

[Mike White]

Holy walls of text!

Get a Yeti Untamed, roll the ball onto the lane at the foul line, don't squeeze the damn ball, give it time to rev up, and it will skid/flip regardless of your rev rate,... I've seen your videos - remember that balls don't rev up in the air... You gotta lay that thing down and roll it.

Mine does.

[Aslan]

Mr Aslan,

1) Do you know your pap position?
No. I know how to find it if I have some measurement equipment or a ball spinner…but I don't have those so, no.


2) Do you have access to a pro shop operator that knows his product line and has a grasp on laying out a ball?
Yes. Actually, I have access to 5 really good pro shops/ball drillers.


3) Does this guy know your game and can he watch you throw the ball before recommending a layout?
Well…2 of the 4 have seen me bowl. Both Mike and the guy that run the pro shop in my home center have seen me throw a lot of shots. The other two guys haven't watched me throw a shot, but both have drilled balls for pro bowlers and I think at least one of them was a former pro. The 5th place is owned by a pro but I've never actually went there for ball services.

The arsenal is pictured below for all to peruse and hail and shower with accolades. As to measurements:

Slingshot: CG in the middle of the span, about 4" from the pin which is slightly up and 1.5" from the finger hole.

Rhythm: The CG is offset about 1.25" from the center of the span and the pin is 3.25" away and an inch just right and above the finger hole.

On the more aggressive Encounter (A): The CG is kicked out quite a bit away from the center of the span (4") and a smaller deep balance hole is right next to it. The pin is about 1.75-2" directly right of the finger hole and it is 4.5" from the CG.

On the less aggressive Encounter (N): The pin is in about the same place relative to the finger hole, but the CG is much closer to it (<3") and the balance hole is kicked a little further out, is larger in diameter, but more shallow.

Bullet Train: CG is 1.25" offset from the center of the span and the pin is 2.5" away, just 1.25" slightly below the finger hole.

There is a picture below. But generally my pin is either even or slightly up on the 4 balls drilled by Mike W. On the other ball it is slightly down. The Encounters are asymmetric and the other 3 symmetric.

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q616/Aslan2014/5c864698-315f-4e2c-82e7-6088a1582884_zps66897bed.jpg (http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/Aslan2014/media/5c864698-315f-4e2c-82e7-6088a1582884_zps66897bed.jpg.html)

[fortheloveofbowling]

No wonder on those balls you don't get back end motion. Those angles are mostly working against each other to create smooth motions by burning up. A small angle from pin to vertical axis line will make the ball transition fastest at the break point. Problem is the drilling angles are smaller also which makes the ball want to roll up earlier. In other words you have drillings there that want to rev up quick and roll quick=burn up and produce a flatter smoother motion.

Just to add some things. I don't know your pap but even if it is 5-6 inches what i said holds true. I have noticed layouts like that when walter ray was on shark. Why? He was trying to get that ball to transition and roll as soon as possible.

[Mike White]

No wonder on those balls you don't get back end motion. Those angles are mostly working against each other to create smooth motions by burning up. A small angle from pin to vertical axis line will make the ball transition fastest at the break point. Problem is the drilling angles are smaller also which makes the ball want to roll up earlier. In other words you have drillings there that want to rev up quick and roll quick=burn up and produce a flatter smoother motion.

Just to add some things. I don't know your pap but even if it is 5-6 inches what i said holds true. I have noticed layouts like that when walter ray was on shark. Why? He was trying to get that ball to transition and roll as soon as possible.

Unless Aslan is out on bone dry boards, his normal 1st transition occurs about 5 feet past the pins.


His Val angle is about 50 degrees, so it stays in the hook phase longer on those occasions where he is on bone dry boards.

I say longer, but with his lack of revs, the forces slowing down the ball, and increasing revs overwhelms the forces making the ball turn left, so the ball ends up rolling flat.

[fortheloveofbowling]

If Aslan has a med-strong asymmetrical ball (rg in 2.49-2.52 range) in his closet he should try something different. Pin above fingers somewhere between ring and bridge and mass bias just a little right of thumb(1/2 inch). I think he would see a motion on the lane and impact at the pins he has not seen. That lower rg is still going to rev up quick even above the fingers and even a moderate diff ball should show him angle at the pins he might like.

[Aslan]

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes:

Aslan sucks so unless he's bowling on the moon or underwater...drilling is really just putting holes in the ball that his fingers fit in.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes:

Aslan sucks so unless he's bowling on the moon or underwater...drilling is really just putting holes in the ball that his fingers fit in.

Man i watched your video from vegas and you have a good enough arm swing, approach, and even release to average 180-185. Obviously time and practice will make you better. I'm not patting you on the back because if your pins are all in the same area you are screwing yourself 200.00 at a time. You are an analytical minded person so understand this, when you put that pin farther right you are making these cores more stable, decreasing flare and really nullifying what they were designed to do. You should stay with pin positions inside and above the fingers especially with a symmetric ball. You can get away with pin down under fingers on asymmetric stuff and fine tune with the mass bias. Try some pin above your bridge and cg and mb not kicked out so far and your equipment will retain more energy at the pocket and your strike percentage will increase.

[MICHAEL]

A sanded ball moves more in the oil than a polished one, but a polished ball moves more in the friction, so who's to say?

thanks for making that point rob!! I think that's why I have had most of my best games with polished ball. like you have said, To each his own, and there is a place for both solid, and polished!

[RobLV1]

Man i watched your video from vegas and you have a good enough arm swing, approach, and even release to average 180-185. Obviously time and practice will make you better. I'm not patting you on the back because if your pins are all in the same area you are screwing yourself 200.00 at a time. You are an analytical minded person so understand this, when you put that pin farther right you are making these cores more stable, decreasing flare and really nullifying what they were designed to do. You should stay with pin positions inside and above the fingers especially with a symmetric ball. You can get away with pin down under fingers on asymmetric stuff and fine tune with the mass bias. Try some pin above your bridge and cg and mb not kicked out so far and your equipment will retain more energy at the pocket and your strike percentage will increase.

Putting the pin further right (for a right-handed bowler) does not make the core more stable, in fact, if you look at the BTM article about the Storm VDLS System, written by Steve Kloempkin at Storm, a pin buffer of 2" from the VAL, produces the most flare. Flare is produced by an unstable core position, not a stable one. What is more significant, putting the pin above the bridge or the ring finger, depending on the PAP of the individual bowler, usually equates to a longer, weaker, pin to PAP distance. Not "kicking out" the PSA results in less core involvement. Personally, I just had a ball drilled for fried lanes with the pin under the bridge, toward the middle finger, and the cg straight down to the thumb hole. I chose this layout for maximum length and minimum core involvement, which is exactly what I got from it. What a particular layout does for one bowler, does not necessarily equate to another bowler unless their styles and PAP's are the same. It's all about angles and distances.

[fortheloveofbowling]

I said pin farther to the right meaning towards the pap is making the core more stable decreasing the flare. The vertical axis line is an entrely different story. You have a pin up ball and still have a 2 inch pin buffer from the val. You should be concerned with your student rather than arguing. I'm not going to argue with you rob and in my opinion those driils are a detriment to aslan creating a ball motion that will help his game. Quite frankly if you are going through a 6 ball progression on a shot just short of a house condition and average in the 180's maybe you don't have a handle on your own layouts.

[RobLV1]

I said pin farther to the right meaning towards the pap is making the core more stable decreasing the flare. The vertical axis line is an entrely different story. You have a pin up ball and still have a 2 inch pin buffer from the val. You should be concerned with your student rather than arguing. I'm not going to argue with you rob and in my opinion those driils are a detriment to aslan creating a ball motion that will help his game. Quite frankly if you are going through a 6 ball progression on a shot just short of a house condition and average in the 180's maybe you don't have a handle on your own layouts.

So you are saying that putting the pin closer to the PAP is going to decrease the flare? That's nonsense. If you are talking about putting the pin so far up that it maintains a 2" pin buffer, that wouldn't work at all for Aslan. I've given him two lessons, and seen him bowl three times. I know his roll. Have you actually seen him bowl, or just watched a video? As to my averaging in the 180's and going through a six ball progression, could it be that I'm just a crappy senior bowler who can't repeat a shot because his body is falling apart? I will say that each time I changed balls last night, I struck on the first shot with the ball change. Does that really sound like I don't have a handle on my own layouts? My knowledge has nothing to do with my own bowling or my physical ability to bowl. It has to do with my intellect and all of the hours of research that I've put into the subject.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Symmetrical balls are said to have the most flare at 3 3/8 from the pap and anything less or more reduces flare the more your go from that. Asymmetrical anything between 2 3/8 up to 6 about the same and anything closer decreases the flare. My point is based the perception that aslan is not a high track player and thus is pap is in a area that is to close to those pins in most cases. As his coach and familiar with all aspects of his game including equipment and utilization of that equipment i'm sure you know his pap correct?
As far as your game don't tell me about health, you just bowled a ten gamer. I saw the video from you guys and your more than capable of making good shots physically.

[Mike White]

Putting the pin further right (for a right-handed bowler) does not make the core more stable, in fact, if you look at the BTM article about the Storm VDLS System, written by Steve Kloempkin at Storm, a pin buffer of 2" from the VAL, produces the most flare. Flare is produced by an unstable core position, not a stable one. What is more significant, putting the pin above the bridge or the ring finger, depending on the PAP of the individual bowler, usually equates to a longer, weaker, pin to PAP distance. Not "kicking out" the PSA results in less core involvement. Personally, I just had a ball drilled for fried lanes with the pin under the bridge, toward the middle finger, and the cg straight down to the thumb hole. I chose this layout for maximum length and minimum core involvement, which is exactly what I got from it. What a particular layout does for one bowler, does not necessarily equate to another bowler unless their styles and PAP's are the same. It's all about angles and distances.

Wow, Rob, sorry, but you put your foot in your mouth yet again.

In that article, they were using the layout of 4x4x?

In the context of 4x4x? between the options of 0.5, 2, and 3.5, 2 did produce the most.

But that isn't the same as saying "a pin buffer of 2" from the VAL, produces the most flare."

It's quite possible that 1.5, 2.5, or 3" pin buffer would produce the most flare in a 4x4x? layout.

If they change from 4x4x? to 4x5x? then a different pin buffer amount would produce the most flare.

Another interpretation of the graphic would be that the "across" migration path produces more flare than the up, or down paths.

That may or may not be true, but it's a more reasonable conclusion than "a pin buffer of 2" from the VAL, produces the most flare."

[Mike White]

So you are saying that putting the pin closer to the PAP is going to decrease the flare? That's nonsense. If you are talking about putting the pin so far up that it maintains a 2" pin buffer, that wouldn't work at all for Aslan. I've given him two lessons, and seen him bowl three times. I know his roll. Have you actually seen him bowl, or just watched a video? As to my averaging in the 180's and going through a six ball progression, could it be that I'm just a crappy senior bowler who can't repeat a shot because his body is falling apart? I will say that each time I changed balls last night, I struck on the first shot with the ball change. Does that really sound like I don't have a handle on my own layouts? My knowledge has nothing to do with my own bowling or my physical ability to bowl. It has to do with my intellect and all of the hours of research that I've put into the subject.

In Vegas I had a Trop Breeze with the pin about 1" from the PAP, and yes it decreases the flare.

Decreasing the flare along with axis tilt for me causes the ball to go further past the end of the oil pattern before snapping left.

Its my axis of rotation combined with rev rate that causes the ball to launch left.

I believe I bounced one or two off the 1 board well down the lane, that went brooklyn.

[RobLV1]

Symmetrical balls are said to have the most flare at 3 3/8 from the pap and anything less or more reduces flare the more your go from that. Asymmetrical anything between 2 3/8 up to 6 about the same and anything closer decreases the flare. My point is based the perception that aslan is not a high track player and thus is pap is in a area that is to close to those pins in most cases. As his coach and familiar with all aspects of his game including equipment and utilization of that equipment i'm sure you know his pap correct?
As far as your game don't tell me about health, you just bowled a ten gamer. I saw the video from you guys and your more than capable of making good shots physically.

The one thing that I know about Aslan is that he works with so many different coaches and tries so many different things, that his PAP today is most probably totally different than it was back in September. I do know that the layout that you describe for him with the pin above the bridge and the cg kicked out just slightly is the layout that Ebonite recommends for use for bowlers whose PAP is unknown, in other words, bowlers that the driller has never seen bowl. It is recommended because it is safe for unknown styles.

As far as my health goes, the only reason that I bowled the ten gamer is that it was the first event at the new stadium and I didn't want to miss it. Each time I bowl, it's just a matter of what is going to hurt today. I have two bulging discs in my lower back, and one in my neck. I also have arthritis in my neck as well as in both hands. I have two ankles where the ligaments have been torn several times from playing basketball, two knees that are weak and arthritic from being a catcher in baseball, a torn rotator cuff, also from baseball. Can I bowl decently? Yes, occasionally. Can I bowl through a lot of pain? Yes, but sometimes not very well as hard as I try, though I still I love the game. As I said before, please don't equate my own ability, or lack of ability, to bowl as any indication of my ability and desire to help other bowlers. I am a teacher, and to try to discredit me because of my own lack of ability in playing the game myself, is doing a disservice not only to me, but to the bowlers that I try to help.

[RobLV1]

Wow, Rob, sorry, but you put your foot in your mouth yet again.

In that article, they were using the layout of 4x4x?

In the context of 4x4x? between the options of 0.5, 2, and 3.5, 2 did produce the most.

But that isn't the same as saying "a pin buffer of 2" from the VAL, produces the most flare."

It's quite possible that 1.5, 2.5, or 3" pin buffer would produce the most flare in a 4x4x? layout.

If they change from 4x4x? to 4x5x? then a different pin buffer amount would produce the most flare.

Another interpretation of the graphic would be that the "across" migration path produces more flare than the up, or down paths.

That may or may not be true, but it's a more reasonable conclusion than "a pin buffer of 2" from the VAL, produces the most flare."

Once again, Mike, you are picking at nits. I'm afraid that it is time, once again, just to ignore anything that you have to say about me. You are a very insecure small man, and hopefully, anyone who is looking for advice on this site who I try to help will quickly see that, and not let your crusade to discredit me keep them from getting the help they need. I will not be responding to you again.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Rob,

This is the last i am going to say about this matter. First of all in relation to the initial thread, my posting were to try to point out that Mr Aslan may want to try some different things with his drillings. Based on the pictures of the balls he posted i think you may agree he could POSSIBLY see some different and MAYBE beneficial motions. The man is trying to improve his game and that MAY be worth a try.

In regards to the time you have put in learning the game and the information you possess, that is obvious. Effective teachers and coaches have an open mind and exchange information with colleagues, students, players, and yes individuals like mike or myself or anyone on here that may have something to offer occasionally. I am not saying you don't do that with people you perceive has having equal intellect and knowledge about the game. But when on a simple subject like the baker conversation with mike in the end instead of saying yeah your right i thought different, you say what ever you say mike. Then when i am just trying to offer an option, you say NONSENSE and never really acknowledge that MAYBE JUST MAYBE some one may have a point. Nobody is trying to discredit you and i have written before the sport needs more people like you. My point is that just because you write something in relation to a topic you can not expect people to think that is the end all be all. You know that one thing works for one and not another in this game in some instances. Again, exchanging of thoughts, ideas, information makes an educator in general tremendously more effective. I do wish you success with coaching and do believe you have the knowledge to help people in the sport.

[Mike White]

Once again, Mike, you are picking at nits. I'm afraid that it is time, once again, just to ignore anything that you have to say about me. You are a very insecure small man, and hopefully, anyone who is looking for advice on this site who I try to help will quickly see that, and not let your crusade to discredit me keep them from getting the help they need. I will not be responding to you again.

I have no beef with your teaching of others how to throw the ball.

However when it comes to the technical side of what a ball does, and how to drill it, you're out of your element.

Even when you are simply quoting what you've read, you find a way to misinterpret it.

[Aslan]

The one thing that I know about Aslan is that he works with so many different coaches and tries so many different things, that his PAP today is most probably totally different than it was back in September.

That is actually true. I've worked on so many game altering things since Vegas that I can't even stop and video it because it's constantly, constantly a work in progress. It's exhausting, but hopefully will make me better in the end. Tonight I'll be working on footwork and my shoulder:

1) As Rob pointed out in Vegas, my footwork needs to be SLOWER. I have a tendency to "run" like a horse when they leave the gate at a horse race.
2) My current coach pointed out that I need the footwork to be fluid. While messing with my timing, I developed a bad habit of starting my approach...sort of hesitating...then continuing.

3) As a result of watching some tips from Mark Baker's video...I'm going to continue working on "quieting" my shoulders. I have the bad tendency (or good depending on who you talk to AKA J. Slowinski) to drop my shoulder rather than bend my knee. I've always had questionable knees since little league and even though I THINK I'm getting low...my knees have a natural resistance...so I end up too vertical...and drop the shoulder to compensate...and then I'm off balance and fall to the right.

So yes, Rob is correct there. The Aslan he saw in Vegas was NOT the Aslan he gave lesson #1 to. Much of that was adopting the things he showed me in lesson #1...with a modification here or there. And the Aslan he will see (God willing) in March (when the league sweeps in Vegas...lesson #3)...will hopefully be FAR different...and hopefully FAR better.

And that is why I now have a REGULAR coach. I can't get a lesson from Rob twice a year...he knows his stuff...but I mess with myself too much between the lessons and in many cases will adopt bad habits that he then needs to "fix" during the next lesson. I DO still want to see him though when I go to Vegas because I'm a firm believer that having more than one set of eyes on your game can be beneficial. Sometimes it can be distracting...but as the bowler...I have the task of grabbing tightly to the stuff that seems to work...and putting the rest in a storage chest to maybe re-visist or maybe not. I hope to get more input from Rob in March...and even get a lesson with Mark Baker sometime before that..maybe January. I'm delaying the M. Baker lesson because I've still got a lot of stuff I'm working at all at once and I need to quiet that a bit before seeing a new coach.


But when on a simple subject like the baker conversation with mike in the end instead of saying yeah your right i thought different, you say what ever you say mike. Then when i am just trying to offer an option, you say NONSENSE and never really acknowledge that MAYBE JUST MAYBE some one may have a point. Nobody is trying to discredit you and i have written before the sport needs more people like you. My point is that just because you write something in relation to a topic you can not expect people to think that is the end all be all. You know that one thing works for one and not another in this game in some instances. Again, exchanging of thoughts, ideas, information makes an educator in general tremendously more effective. I do wish you success with coaching and do believe you have the knowledge to help people in the sport.

This, in my opinion, is Rob's weakness...and I've told him that plainly...because I'm not really shy. He "listens"...but not with an "open mind". He and I had arguements...lots of arguements early on here at BB.com. And in many cases...most cases...I was wrong and he was right. Story of my life. BUT...there are ways to disagree and still come off like you respect someone's opinion...and there are ways to disagree where you sound "holier than thou". I've bowled with Mike many times...and spent many hours in his pro shop...and have bowled with Rob and had dinner with Rob, etc... Them not getting along...is NOT a shocker. They both have nearly identical personalities and have those personalities infused with so much knowledge...and both have real life businesses that are directly impacted by being at least perceived as "knowing a lot of stuff and being correct"...that very rarely...and I'm talking...never really....will you hear either utter the words, "I was wrong about that." Rob said it ONCE....I heard it! I can't remember what it was...but I heard it.

And the internet doesn't help. I argued with Rob, then met him in person, then we're friends and I subscibe to his website and see him for a lesson everytime I'm in Vegas. Me and Mike argue all the time on here...but in person...it's fine and we bowl in a league together and he's drilled 5 of the 6 balls I throw. Even Iceman...the FIRST to say that Aslan was bad for bowlingboards.com...my ARCH ENEMY...we meet...we bowl...he couldn't be a nicer guy. The internet makes EVERYONE sound like either sycophants or ***holes. There's very little in between. And I've lost friends over it. I've written stuff...meant it one way...it got interpreted another...and suddenly you have real world problems.

But as long as Rob and Mike have a vested interest in "being right"...I doubt they'll ever get past the "Grumpy Old Men" (relating to the movie, not their age) back and forths.

Quick Example:
My first coach...before Rob...was the WORST coach. He had HIS way...and that was the ONLY way. So if I went to him and said, "I think my thumbhole is too small because my thumb is getting stuck." He'd respond. "It's getting stuck because you're bending it in the hole, not because the hole is too tight." I'd respond, "Well, okay...but it's still sticking...what should I do?" He'd respond, "Throw it properly."

Now...he was right. Mike pointed this out as well durring the fittings for the balls. But him (the coach) being RIGHT...DIDN'T solve my problem. It was very hard to work with that coach because if I learned something online or from someone else...he wouldn't give me pros/cons...and let me experiment with it while still offering guidance. He'd simply get frustrated and say, "thats not what we worked on. Do it like this. Forget all that other poo. They don't know what they're talking about." And thats a common personality fault in a LOT of bowling coaches. I've gotten instruction from former PBAers currently in the hall of fame and the glaring personality issue is if you dare question...you get an answer like, "well, last time I checked...that guy isn't in the PBA Hall of Fame and I am." Bowling has a LOT of that. A lot of egos in bowling. A lot of guys not willing to bowl scratch or sport. A lot of guys that think their way is the ONLY way.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Excellent summary and insight regarding the entire unfortunate banter preceding your post.

[Aslan]

Excellent summary and insight regarding the entire unfortunate banter preceding your post.

The important thing is:

A) We have lots of participation.
B) We got some passionate folks.
C) I sort of have a better understanding of a "skid/flip" ball.

And THATs all that matters.