Aother discussion of Coaching...the non-Gifted side of bowling...

[Aslan]

This (skid-flip arsenal discussion in another thread) may be a disagreement I have with the current coach. And thats an interesting dynamic to coaching. As a student, you need to be accepting of the different points of view and techniques. Like I told Rob when I first got my lesson from him in early 2014...I'm a blank page...a sponge. You tell me what I need to do to get better...and I'll do it...even if it doesn't sound/feel right.

BUT...the other side of being a student is recognizing when things may not be working for YOU...and taking in other opinions as well...and molding that into a sort of hybrid game. And how long a student is willing to accept changes even if those changes don't feel right or are "steps back" in performance....is directly related to how much faith that student has in the instructor...and also how truly dedicated the student is to getting better.

I'm willing to change my "system". I'm willing to abandon the old spare shooting system/ball. I've improved my release...I now have a mini-'arsenal' if you will. But it's always something that is evolving.

- I LIKE the idea of Rob's to try a few distinctive lines to see what the lanes dictate rather than just play the track and adjust balls as you see changes.
- I like the concept of using a 'benchmark' ball rather than your most aggressive ball so that you have both "ball up" and "ball down" options.
- I also like Suzie Minshew's article and advice on varying loft/targets vertically (rather than just moving feet side to side) to get a slightly better pocket hit.
- And I have my "limits" in terms of just how big of an arsenal I'm willing to deal with.

So this is where...as the student...I have to get a little out of my comfort zone...and try a new couple strategies...and try to keep some things while abandoning others. See how that works...then in a few weeks go back for another lesson and see where we go from there. The key for coaches (I think) is not just credibility (which is vital and why sometimes those in forums or good players on your team or even house pro shop guys get frustrated when people don't listen to them)...but it's also at the end of the day about what WORKS. If I adopt a system or technique against what I "want" to do...and my average jumps up 15 pins and I roll a couple 300 games...then that will trump my pre-conceived ideas. But usually, change doesn't happen like that. A lot of times you gotta take some lumps while you learn...and thats when it gets tough and when the student starts going, "hmmm...I just don't know about this."

So in summary...having gotten instruction (not counting in the forums where I've gotten a lot of good feedback but the list would be much, much higher if I include each one of those people) from EIGHT coaches that are at LEAST USBC Bronze Level...my keys to finding and sticking with a good coach are (in order of importance):

1) RESULTS. If a coach teaches me to walk backwards and I average 246...I walk backwards. If a Gold Level coach teaches me to tilt my head right and I can't bowl over 151...I ain't gonna do it indefinitely.

2) A coach's ability to change their advice based on what they see. And this is where Rob is at a bit of a disadvantage (for me) as are many "clinics". This takes going back to the same person over and over and over. But generally, if the coach wants to see me have a greater knee bend...and then that knee bend thing is causing all kinds of other stuff to go out of whack...I want a coach that is going to A) Recognize that...and B) Not be resistant to changing their advice to something that might work better. Many coaches lack this ability. They have a mold, and you need to fit into it...and if you can't...keep trying until you CAN.

3) Personality. Coaches have to be likeable and they have to at least SEEM to care whether the student gets better or not. They have to at least APPEAR to be invested. One thing about adult learners is they don't usually behave like children (or they think they don't) and they have little tolerance for being treated like children. Being too harsh, too critical, or 'mocking' of an adult student is usually a BAD idea if you want them to come back. If a student think the coach has a vested interest in their success...the student will have an inner sense of responsibility to try and "please" their coach by being a better student.

4) Credentials. Credentials are ALWAYS a plus. Whether subconsciously or consciously. And it's why so many bowlers try to "emulate" a high level bowler. They SEE something working...and understanding the laws of Physics and the Universe...they also understand that if they do it EXACTLY like that....they SHOULD get the same result. But I think a student who really wants to learn should take advice from anyone and everyone. But how much emphasis they give it...how seriously they take it...and how long they are willing to struggle with it...are usually linked to that coach's credentials.

5) Price. Obviously price is a factor. If it wasn't, EVERYONE would go to Mark Baker. Even people on the other side of the country...they'd just buy a first class ticket and fly in for a lesson...like, every other day. But price IS a factor. Fortunately in bowling...even PBA Pros don't charge THAT much for a lesson when compared to other sports like baseball or golf or hockey. Since PBAers aren't rolling in cash, they generally appreciate the extra income. So, for me, price isn't really an issue. I'd rather spend $50-$100 a month on lessons than on a new ball every month and I think I'll have better results. But sure, there are limits. I've yet to get that "one lesson" from Mark Baker...although it is a goal for 2015...because $75-$80 for an hour...ughhh...

So how bout everyone else?

Coaches that have opinions on students (ideal or otherwise)? Maybe you have your own list? Maybe the same list but in a different order?

[zdawg]

I've yet to get that "one lesson" from Mark Baker...although it is a goal for 2015...because $75-$80 for an hour...ughhh...

So how bout everyone else?

Coaches that have opinions on students (ideal or otherwise)? Maybe you have your own list? Maybe the same list but in a different order?

You should buy Baker's DVD, I've got it and it covers what he tries to do with his individual lessons (without obviously being tailored to each individual, still very good information IMO). For me, since I go see him every now and then, it provides me with an awesome refresher and reminds me of the stuff I need to work on (and also gives you a big picture overview as to how everything is related), AND most importantly the little things he mentions during the lesson that I forget (he talks rather FAST). Of course it may not help you if you're being coached differently by somebody else and it might just put more stuff in your head, I know you've been known to overthink things once in a blue moon ;)

That said, I went to one other coach one time, a local guy that was very old school in his teaching methods. In fact, almost everything he taught me was scrapped by Baker and it wasn't until I learned that there was a distinct difference between old school bowling and the modern game that I understood the gigantic discrepancy in their coaching methods.

I typically don't seek out coaching very often, mainly because I stick with Baker - he knows me and what I need to work on and he only comes down to San Diego twice a month (and even then its North County San Diego which is at least a 45 minute drive from where I am). Also he's seen me progress from struggling in the 120's, to my current sticking point in the low 180's so in some sense he's invested in seeing me set the bar even higher and reach those goals which is a huge bonus with a coach.

My average has been steadily improving since early Spring, I'm up 40 pins since the end of last Winter season, and a little over 20 pins over my Summer average currently. Unfortunately due mainly to work, I just don't have the time to practice several times per week right now and I see virtually no value in going back to Baker until I've put the necessary amount of time and effort into applying what I've been taught so far which is another reason I wait so long in between lessons (and now with the DVD I can remember some of the things I've forgotten so we won't waste time working on those things again).

From my perspective coaching is invaluable if you want to reach the absolute limits of what your talent/ability can achieve, but its not magic by itself - you really have to understand and I think at least to some extent take a leap of faith if they are teaching you something that seems "odd" or your game initially struggles. I'm not sure I would be wiling to do this if I was jumping around to 2, 4, 6, 8 or more coaches per year as they're all going to differ in their methods. I strongly believe once you find somebody you click with, and they fulfill your checklist, you should stick with them as long as possible so they can help guide you as you set that bar higher and higher AND they have the benefit of knowing where you started and have a much better understanding overall.

Well, that's my two cents anyway, and I SWEAR I'm not a Mark Baker shill :cool:

CLIFF NOTES: Zdawg thinks coaching is helpful and he is a Mark Baker shill

[J Anderson]

I will comment on three of your points
2) A coach's ability to change their advice based on what they see. And this is where Rob is at a bit of a disadvantage (for me) as are many "clinics". This takes going back to the same person over and over and over. But generally, if the coach wants to see me have a greater knee bend...and then that knee bend thing is causing all kinds of other stuff to go out of whack...I want a coach that is going to A) Recognize that...and B) Not be resistant to changing their advice to something that might work better. Many coaches lack this ability. They have a mold, and you need to fit into it...and if you can't...keep trying until you CAN.

While almost all coaches will try to put beginners into the classic four step approach mold, the better coaches will work with you to bring out your strengths and minimize your weaknesses.

3) Personality. Coaches have to be likeable and they have to at least SEEM to care whether the student gets better or not. They have to at least APPEAR to be invested. One thing about adult learners is they don't usually behave like children (or they think they don't) and they have little tolerance for being treated like children. Being too harsh, too critical, or 'mocking' of an adult student is usually a BAD idea if you want them to come back. If a student think the coach has a vested interest in their success...the student will have an inner sense of responsibility to try and "please" their coach by being a better student.

First, being too harsh or critical of any student, adult or child, is always a bad idea.
Second, some personalities just don't work together. A particular coach may have great success with his or her other students, but the two of you just don't hit it off.

4) Credentials. Credentials are ALWAYS a plus. Whether subconsciously or consciously. And it's why so many bowlers try to "emulate" a high level bowler. They SEE something working...and understanding the laws of Physics and the Universe...they also understand that if they do it EXACTLY like that....they SHOULD get the same result. But I think a student who really wants to learn should take advice from anyone and everyone. But how much emphasis they give it...how seriously they take it...and how long they are willing to struggle with it...are usually linked to that coach's credentials.

People who are "gifted" usually don't make the best coaches or teachers. If you look at pro sports the best managers and coaches tend not to be former stars, but journeymen who had to work hard and really study the game to compete in the big leagues.
Yet in bowling, we often dismiss advice from good bowlers, just because they don't have a 230+ average.

[RobLV1]

I've lost count of how many 220+ bowlers who know nothing about coaching, screwing up bowlers games' by trying to help. There is a different skill set involved in coaching than in bowling. Coaches "see" and are trained to get to the root of a problem rather than addressing just the problem itself.

[dnhoffman]

I've lost count of how many 220+ bowlers who know nothing about coaching, screwing up bowlers games' by trying to help. There is a different skill set involved in coaching than in bowling. Coaches "see" and are trained to get to the root of a problem rather than addressing just the problem itself.

My average is only at around 216 right now, might need to edit your post!

[fortheloveofbowling]

Rob, I don't anyone was trying to insult coaches. Also, Rob was just saying someone like himself that has extensive training has the knowledge of all aspects of the game and can see the small things wrong. God knows we need more people willing to help the sport. I think what j anderson was getting at was that some coaches tend to want to change everything in a individuals game. I think sometimes coaches should work more with existing strengths that may not be text book and focus on the real problems in moderation. Bowling is such a feel game and that is never really talked about and nobody needs 10 different thoughts in their head while standing on the approach. Just my thoughts.

[Aslan]

Yeah, hopefully my post wasn't seen as critical of coaching. I mean, with all the coaching I seek and end up getting…I'm certainly not an "anti-coaching" guy. I just thought I'd put 5 of the important aspects and get opinions.

To what Rob said, I have seen an ADVANTAGE in coaches that are teachers more so than former pros. As hard as it is to argue with someone that has BEEN THERE….I find that true coaches are much more interested in the success of their students. I mean, if you're Norm Duke…you're concerned with bowling and bowling at the top of your game and when your next tournament is. The LAST thing on your mind the night before the WSOB is how well the senior you coached did at a local tournament that evening. But coaches….thats their THING…they are almost as interested and invested in their student's success as they are in their own success…because the two things are linked.

I think thats where Mark Baker turned a corner…when he stopped bowling competitively and focused on coaching. I think it can be hard to give your students the attention they need when it's just some side job while you work on your own game.

And I agree with Rob about 220+ bowlers that have zero teaching ability…you'll find these guys in nearly every house. Their problem is they really can only tell you what THEY do…they can't analyze your game and tell you what you might want to do…unless it's what THEY do. I experienced this when I tried to help coach a guy on my old team. I went through the Level 1 class for Youth Bowling but then I was standing there…watching a grown right-hander throw a back-up ball…and everything I learned went out the window. I couldn't really analyze his game…because he wasn't doing it right. Same thing with my pal Dennis. He is SO bad…so naturally BAD…that I just stand there with my mouth open and no words come out. Teaching itself is a subject. It takes years for many to master. I know lots of really smart people that are horrible teachers.

[vdubtx]

And I agree with Rob about 220+ bowlers that have zero teaching ability…you'll find these guys in nearly every house.

Absolutely agree with Rob on that point. I get approached by friends on the lanes weekly about what they should do because they are bowling bad etc. I can give some basic pointers, but in the end, I have no clue how to coach someone else. I know how to keep my game going, but to communicate what I have in my head about my own game is not gonna happen. I need coaching every once in a while too and I do seek it out.

[MICHAEL]

Absolutely agree with Rob on that point. I get approached by friends on the lanes weekly about what they should do because they are bowling bad etc. I can give some basic pointers, but in the end, I have no clue how to coach someone else. I know how to keep my game going, but to communicate what I have in my head about my own game is not gonna happen. I need coaching every once in a while too and I do seek it out.


GOOD POINT vdubtx!!! Pat Henderson, that Missouri Hall of fame bowler I am on a league with, is the same way! ONE hell of a bowler like yourself!
He was going to get into coaching, so I decided to give it a shot.

He like you, knows bowling, and all that is necessary to make the adjustments be it two different balls on two lanes, adjustments ect ect!!

We had two lessons but what it turned out being was, Pat and Ice bowling togerther 4 games and having a great time in the process! As far as coaching what it boiled down to was him making a comment like move so many boards to left or right, and that's basically it.
things I already knew. I thought lets do another lesson,,,, just incase I making judgment too soon!
We met the second time and bowled each other, he would roll a ball, I would roll a ball! The coaching consisted of giving me advice on where to
stand and what target. Same as the first lesson.

PAT i is ONE HELL OF A BOWLER,,, one of the finest, even at 60 now, but like you vdubtx, does not have the training to really be a coach, in my opinion.

Pat knows a HELL OF A LOT of things about bowing, that he uses to get those high scores on THS patterns. He does not do the Sports Patterns at all to my knowledge. But on house red pattern bowling maybe even blue and red, he is hard to beat in this area regardless of the age of his victims!



Anyone can be a Coach, but to be a GOOD, or even GREAT coach, it take more then just knowing HOW YOURSELF to bowl the Big scores. I actually think that a GREAT coach is not just someone with the knowledge, but someone with "THE GIFT" of teaching!

What is THE GIFT OF COACHING,,, its not just ONE thing, its a combinations of Many things, things that have been mentioned in this thread by many of you!

http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp287/getinshapegirl/COACHINGSIGN.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/getinshapegirl/media/COACHINGSIGN.jpg.html)

Its sort of like those few teachers you had in life that you NEVER FORGET,,, vs the many that you don't recall at all!
LOOK FOR THE GIFTED TEACHER, they are out there, and if it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't!

[MICHAEL]

GOOD POINT vdubtx!!! Pat Henderson, that Missouri Hall of fame bowler I am on a league with, is the same way! ONE hell of a bowler like yourself!
He was going to get into coaching, so I decided to give it a shot.

He like you, knows bowling, and all that is necessary to make the adjustments be it two different balls on two lanes, adjustments ect ect!!

We had two lessons but what it turned out being was, Pat and Ice bowling togerther 4 games and having a great time in the process! As far as coaching what it boiled down to was him making a comment like move so many boards to left or right, and that's basically it.
things I already knew. I thought lets do another lesson,,,, just incase I making judgment too soon!
We met the second time and bowled each other, he would roll a ball, I would roll a ball! The coaching consisted of giving me advice on where to
stand and what target. Same as the first lesson.

PAT i is ONE HELL OF A BOWLER,,, one of the finest, even at 60 now, but like you vdubtx, does not have the training to really be a coach, in my opinion.

Pat knows a HELL OF A LOT of things about bowing, that he uses to get those high scores on THS patterns. He does not do the Sports Patterns at all to my knowledge. But on house red pattern bowling maybe even blue and red, he is hard to beat in this area regardless of the age of his victims!



Anyone can be a Coach, but to be a GOOD, or even GREAT coach, it take more then just knowing HOW YOURSELF to bowl the Big scores. I actually think that a GREAT coach is not just someone with the knowledge, but someone with "THE GIFT" of teaching!

What is THE GIFT OF COACHING,,, its not just ONE thing, its a combinations of Many things, things that have been mentioned in this thread by many of you!

http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp287/getinshapegirl/COACHINGSIGN.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/getinshapegirl/media/COACHINGSIGN.jpg.html)

Its sort of like those few teachers you had in life that you NEVER FORGET,,, vs the many that you don't recall at all!
LOOK FOR THE GIFTED TEACHER, they are out there, and if it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't!

Could Pat be a great coach with training, ,,,,,, Maybe,,,, I do know he is one hell of a bowler, but Coaching is a heck of a lot more then just being outstanding at a sport yourself!

I know Pat comes here on this site occasionally, and my thoughts on this subject are not intended to upset him.... lol,,, I enjoy bowling with, and knowing him as a bowling friend! My opinion on what a coach is all about are just that,,, MY OPINION!

But then I have flown with the eagles!!!,,,,, I had ONE coaching lesson with Big Rob from Vegas!!! Came home and rolled a 741 series using the two major things he pointed out I needed to change! I GREAT coach has the eye of an EAGLE!!

[RobLV1]

What is the "gift" of coaching? It is the ability to "see." It is also having the knowledge to determine the root of a bowler's problem, and not just try to fix the problem itself. I once watched a good bowler who is a wanna-be coach work for weeks trying to teach a bowler how to release the ball properly. He couldn't do it for the simple reason that it was impossible based on the bowler's extremely late timing, which was caused by his footwork. I know the bowler and how frustrated he became by the fact that he had not improved, but had actually gotten worse. Unfortunately, he does not see the value in terms of improvement to actually hire a coach who has paid considerably to gain the knowledge needed to actually help bowlers. He would rather get bad advice for free! Oh well.

Good bowlers can definitely help in terms of making the proper adjustments. In terms of helping improve the physical aspects of your game, you are much better off hiring someone who actually knows what he is doing.

[MICHAEL]

What is the "gift" of coaching? It is the ability to "see." It is also having the knowledge to determine the root of a bowler's problem, and not just try to fix the problem itself. I once watched a good bowler who is a wanna-be coach work for weeks trying to teach a bowler how to release the ball properly. He couldn't do it for the simple reason that it was impossible based on the bowler's extremely late timing, which was caused by his footwork. I know the bowler and how frustrated he became by the fact that he had not improved, but had actually gotten worse. Unfortunately, he does not see the value in terms of improvement to actually hire a coach who has paid considerably to gain the knowledge needed to actually help bowlers. He would rather get bad advice for free! Oh well.

Good bowlers can definitely help in terms of making the proper adjustments. In terms of helping improve the physical aspects of your game, you are much better off hiring someone who actually knows what he is doing.

AMEN brother Rob!! Amen

[Aslan]

Ahhh Iceman. Where art thou? I'm guessing a methadone clinic...but I've been wrong once or twice and that's just a shot in the dark. :p

I decided to jump back in my Dr. Who time machine and drag up an old coaching thread to talk about two coaching dilemmas I have...unrelated.

1) And this has come up before...but so has 90% of the site content. Now that I'm the high average player on my team...and even on my other team where while two of the guys have good averages...their knowledge of the game is suspect at best...I find that I'm tempted to help or "coach". I avoid this urge...like the plague...because my belief is like golf...you help ONLY if they ask for your help. And from a confidence perspective...I just don't think I'm good enough to really help many bowlers.

BUT...sometimes I just can't control myself. And in the 5 times....that I've tried to help a teammate...only ONCE did the teammate listen and actually do what I told them. And yes, the person struck on the next shot. :) I don't take it personally...I mean, I'm the same way...sometimes you just don't buy into stuff right away...or it's not something you want to mess with during league play. I get that. But it DOES feel a little insulting...just a little...when you go out of your way to help...and they don't take the advice...and continue to suck. Examples:

Guy "S": He has several bowling balls and knows NOTHING about bowling ball specs. His progression is completely random...I think it's based on color or something. He asked me to put together a progression for him...and I did...and he had no interest in using it. I think he was joking when he asked for it.

Girl "M": Total beginner. So in my wheelhouse in terms of coaching ability. Very simple...she stands too far left (a righty)...and misses right constantly. I simply offer her the advice that she should move right...maybe left foot on center...and just throw over the 3rd arrow. She nods and nods then goes and stands left foot on about 27 and throws it in the right gutter. Ughh!

Guy "JP": His ball wasn't making it back to the pocket and he kept missing right. I told him...just move a board left. Everything looked great...his line was just off a little. He went on and on and on about how he thinks he needs to just flick his wrist more or loft it out more or, etc... He went up...strike! I asked him what he did...he smiled and said he moved a board left. : D! Where "JP" refuses to listen is the spare ball debate. He's a 185-200 average bowler...he usually either strikes or leaves a 7-pin (a lefty)...but he absolutely refuses to get a spare ball...and misses the 7-pin more than I do. I bet not having a spare ball literally costs him over 50 pins a night.

Guy "JA": He left the 4-pin twice in a row...so I suggested he make a 1-1 move left. He told me he had at least 3-4 different things he was thinking of doing...finally it was his turn on that lane again and he changed balls. The guy changes balls every 3 shots...when all he needs to do is learn how to make slight lateral adjustments. But it's like talking to an autistic child...you can't get through to him.

I'm not a coach...but I gotta admit...THAT is frustrating. Rob said he was a teacher before he became big into bowling...so maybe he prepared himself for that...but man, how do you reconcile "helping" vs "pounding ones head against a wall"??

2) Also mentioned in a previous post...I'm nervous about my arsenal change in August/September. My coach knows I'm gonna make a switch and already has some "ideas" on my next arsenal. But...as loyal Aslan followers are well aware...that kinda goes against my plans for the "bowling ball rack of destiny" (formerly the closet of destiny). I have the next 5 balls already purchased and ready to drill. I just have a really bad feeling the coach wants to SELL me some balls....from their pro shop...and is gonna look at my 4 selections and say, "Yuck. Those balls are older and I wouldn't recommend any of them. You'd be better off with X, Y, Z, and W." Well...how much of that is "true" vs a sales pitch? And what if the X, Y, Z, and W don't play much better than my last arsenal? Now the balls I planned to use...are 9 months older...still sitting on the rack.

I dislike confrontations (non-internet)...so even though #2 seems silly...it stresses me out thinking about it. Like two days ago....I have a ball resurfaced, and de-oiled...came out looking great and the guy only charged me $15 total which was a deal. But I specifically said I wanted it brought to 2000 abralon....and he just brought it to 1000. Given the price he charged...I didn't want to make a big deal about it...but why can't people just give you what you ask for? Sometimes I think pro shop operators are like 35% artists....because while 65% of the time they are technical guys answering technical questions and looking at technology. Sometimes when they're drilling balls or working on balls....it's like they add in some "artistic expression".

[Amyers]

First off I miss ice too wish he would come back.

As far as offering advice on the lanes I work mostly with the youth league kids and when they don't listen it's expected at least. I don't know why adults are as hard headed as they are about simple things

I wouldn't worry about the ball thing too much basically if he suggests you switch out one or two out of five I'd do it list them on Facebook racks on bowling can't believe the price crap goes on there for. If he tries to tell you they are all junk you know he's just trying to sell you something not all of those balls are bad some I like some I don't but at least half of them are something you can build around

[Aslan]

That's kinda what I was thinking.

Like, before the pro am there is a ball demo...and I think there's a discount on the balls due to participation in the pro am...and at least one of the balls there I'm somewhat interested in. And if the suggestion is to maybe consider switching out 1-2 of the 4 (the 5th is a spare ball)...I wouldn't be too hard headed about that...if the reason makes sense. I'm just reluctant because I see guys throwing 700 series with old Hammer VIBEs, and Storm Reign of Fires, etc... so the argument that you MUST have the newest ball on the market or you're at a significant disadvantage...I think is horse poo poo.

What I'm looking for out of the coach, concerning my next arsenal is....here are 4 balls....what can I do to MAXIMIZE what I get out of these 4 balls? What can we do with drilling...maybe surfacing...so that I have 4 distinct options based on what I see on the lanes. If the coach can't look at the 4 balls I have...and make them work...given my low skill level...then I'd question their motive(s). That being said...if they say, "well...the Dark Encounter is a good 1st ball, the Loaded Revolver a good replacement for the Slingshot, and the Asylum a good in between ball....BUT....I don't like the Lethal Revolver as a 2nd or even 3rd ball because it's too close to the Dark Encounter and Asylum...you're not going to see much difference. But...if you were to replace that with (insert another 15lb ball I have....Brunswick Aura Mystic, Brunswick Fortera Exile, 900 Global The Nuts); that might be a better and more complete arsenal...OR...maybe add (insert new ball) instead....I'd strongly consider that advice.

One ball I'm looking forward to trying tonight is the N'Sane Antics. I was really impressed with the ball motion when I watched Missy Parkin throw that at the WSOB. And the color is kinda unique/cool. It would definitely be a ball I'd consider picking up....but I don't have a good spot (in an arsenal) for that particular ball. And since I'm going from 16lbs to 15lbs...just to try it out....I'm trying NOT to buy more balls because I may fall in love with 15lbs and sell my 16lb balls...or I may hate it and sell my 15lb balls. I don't want to get the NSane Antics at 16lb only to find out I really do much better at 15lbs and now I gotta sell it. But I don't know where it would fit in the 15lb Dark Encounter, Lethal Revolver, Asylum, Loaded Revolver progression. If I had to guess, given it's strength and solid cover...I'd say it would replace the Dark Encounter as my first ball...but damn...I've had that Dark Encounter for almost 2 years and have been anxious to use it...I hate to box it back up when I really don't think I'm gonna see much difference between the Dark Encounter and N'Sane Antics.

Specs:
Dark Encounter: solid cover, RG=2.50. Diff. = 0.052, 2000 abralon finish, assymetric core
N'Sane Antics: solid cover, RG= 2.50, Diff. = 0.042, 4000 abralon polished, asymmetric core

The main differences are a much different core with a lowered differential and more advanced coverstock material....the N'Sane Antics should be more of a skid/flip type ball. "Should" be. But...I question that given the low RG.

Not sure what all balls will be at the demo...I know Columbia and I'm pretty sure Hammer...but not sure what else. I've never done one...so it'll be a new experience. I'm kinda interested to see what will happen when I put a ball manufactured post-2013 in my hands. I may prove myself wrong (and further disappoint myself concerning technology and the game of bowling) and find that the new ball technology is JUST what I need to get that ball to turn the corner and create angle. Or I may throw it all over the place because I can't control it. We'll see.

As to being able to recoup really "any" of the money I have invested in my "bowling ball rack of destiny" should I decide to sell them...

I can see people maybe being willing to pay $60 shipped for balls like the Defiant Edge, the Asylum, the Mystic, and the Fortera Exile.

But I can't see anyone paying even $60 for the Dark Encounter, Lethal/Loaded Revolvers, Warning Sign, Track 300A, Reax Pearl, 900G "The Nuts", DV8 Ruckus, Track 714 (I think...7xx something), etc...

Even the Defiant Edge at 16lbs is gonna be a tough sell...but it's a popular brand and the Defiant series was popular...so probably.

[Amyers]

I agree that t doesn't take the newest ball on the lanes to play well it's much more important that the ball match your style and the conditions your playing on. I'm not a fan of the Brunswick revolver line and even less so for what your wanting them to be. In my opinion their is a good reason you can still pick them up for $50 2 years after they were discontinued but to each their own. The biggest problem I see for you is Dark Encounter/The Nuts are the same ball with the Asylum somewhat close then you got the Exile/Aura Mystic the N'Sane Antics goes here too if you purchased it. Personally myself I would go Dark Encounter/Exile/Asylum and sell the rest to get something else I liked maybe a Hyroad/Melee Jab type ball.

[Aslan]

I had the idea today that perhaps I could get specs from the coach…or even what ball progression/arsenal I should get…and I could get the specs from those balls and see if I have anything that matches. If I do, then I use what I have. If I don't, I get something they recommend.

I just don't see it working because…lets take your example…lets say the recommendation is:

Dark Encounter, Exile, Asylum, HyRoad

Okay, thats a Dark Encounter (RG = 2.50, Solid), an Exile (RG = 2.534, Pearl), an Asylum (RG = 2.50, Hybrid), and a Hy Road (RG = 2.57, Hybrid).

My proposed line-up is the DE (above), Le. Revolver (RG= 2.536, Solid), Asylum (above), and Lo. Revolver (RG = 2.547, Pearl)

As you can see by that comparison…using just the two specs…your recommendation would be the same as mine for two balls but different for two. And for the two that are different…and here's where I think the problem might be with the coach as well…

…the Lo. Revolver and Hy Road are the SAME ball. The Hy Road has a slightly higher RG and lower differential…so it'll go a little longer than the lo. revolver…with hypothetically less snap. And maybe you're right that the Loaded Revolver is just a little too close to the Asylum.

As for the #2 ball…you have two balls with virtually identical RGs and differentials. The main difference is one is a solid and one is a pearl. But again…maybe you're right in that the Exile will hypothetically be less like the D.E. than will the Le. Revolver.

I tried a Track Hx16 at the ball demo and I'm not opposed to getting it…i just think it would be too close to the D.E….seems like the RG is too low to be a good ball down option.

I don't know. My philosophy right now is…I don't want a ball that will HELP me nor HURT me. I don't want a ball that makes me better than I am and stunts my improvement…but I also don't want a ball or arsenal that is creating bad habits or useless in how it's put together.

[Amyers]

…the Lo. Revolver and Hy Road are the SAME ball. The Hy Road has a slightly higher RG and lower differential…so it'll go a little longer than the lo. revolver…with hypothetically less snap. And maybe you're right that the Loaded Revolver is just a little too close to the Asylum.



Unfortunately the fact that is missing here is the Loaded Revolver and the Hyroad are no where on the same planet as a ball. You're just looking at core numbers and not taking cover into account. Not to mention the Hyroad has been a top selling ball for years the Loaded Revolver was a ball that proshops are drilling up and putting out as house balls because they can't get rid of them. I've seen both these balls in action there is no comparison.




As for the #2 ball…you have two balls with virtually identical RGs and differentials. The main difference is one is a solid and one is a pearl. But again…maybe you're right in that the Exile will hypothetically be less like the D.E. than will the Le. Revolver.



You're right about the core numbers being similar the main difference is surface and cover. If I was buying a whole new arsenal they wouldn't be my first choice to put together but trying to offer the most bang for what you've got. The Dark Encounter is a solid at 2k the Exile is a pearl with a polished finish. There is quite a bit of difference between the two and from what I've seen of the Exile it really likes to get deep so you should see a difference. I would probably go with a control drilling on the dark encounter and a long and strong on the exile that should help separate them even more.

My idea is start with your Dark Encounter on fresh after the lanes start to open up you can play a little deeper with the exile or ball down to the Asylum (which you will love). The hyroad is for more transitioned lanes doesn't even really have to be that ball you could go with many others just know that's a good one. I don't like to talk bad about any ball but the revolver series from Brunswick has been a flop. Like I said earlier you can still find online sellers trying to get rid of them for $50 2 years after they were discontinued and I can go to a center around here without finding pretty much brand new looking ones sitting out as house balls. You may love it everyone is different I've only known one guy who threw and he though it was crap and ditched it quick. I just know I don't like to see balls laying around like that if they were good even somebody would pick them up.

I'm really not sure how much more aggressive the Dark Encounter is than the Asylum. I've never seen the Dark Encounter I'm guessing it's a Higher end of the line ball since it asymmetric but that is simply a guess on my part. You could also consider adding some surface to the Asylum and making that you most aggressive ball out of the bag. The Asylum at 2k will handle just about anything you're likely to run into. I've used mine on some pretty heavy stuff and been happy with it at the lower grit very flexible ball plays great anywhere between 2k and 4k. Could possibly free you up to add something with a lower RG but I don't really see as you have any low rg stuff right now.