I Hate Pre-bowling

[dnhoffman]

Anyone else do awful when they prebowl?

I swear I'm just taking a blind from now on when I can't make league and can't get a sub.

I just hurry too much, don't read the pins well, and suck!

I shot sub-600 for the second time this season, both when pre-bowling, I need a pacer or something, ugh.

[bowl1820]

Anyone else do awful when they prebowl?

Most of the league's here's don't allow individual pre-bowling.


I swear I'm just taking a blind from now on when I can't make league and can't get a sub.

I just hurry too much, don't read the pins well, and suck!

I shot sub-600 for the second time this season, both when pre-bowling, I need a pacer or something, ugh.

Well learn to pace yourself better, after every shot go back and sit down and wait like you would on league. I do that when I practice, so I don't get in a rush.

[Mike White]

Anyone else do awful when they prebowl?

I swear I'm just taking a blind from now on when I can't make league and can't get a sub.

I just hurry too much, don't read the pins well, and suck!

I shot sub-600 for the second time this season, both when pre-bowling, I need a pacer or something, ugh.

Around here pre-bowling is for teams only, not individuals.

My Thursday team did a pre-bowl a few weeks ago, and to "pace" ourselves each individual bowls 2 frames then sits down and waits for the others to complete the same.

That way you end up bowling at about the same pace as league, but you only have to get up, walk down to the approach, and walk back to your seat half as often.

Where I bowl at, they still have the hard plastic bench seating, so nobody on my team sits near the lanes.

Us old guys need something soft to sit on.

Iceman, you'll like this.

One of my team mates pitched for the KC Royals back in 76-77

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hallto01.shtml

[J Anderson]

For USBC sanctioned leagues, a legal line-up is required for pre- or post-bowling. So for most adult leagues individual pre-bowling should be illegal.

I really hate unopposed bowling. To me the main point of league bowling is to have some friendly competition. To have one team bowl either before or after the regular league time and not face their opponent robs the game of much of its appeal.

[Mike White]

For USBC sanctioned leagues, a legal line-up is required for pre- or post-bowling. So for most adult leagues individual pre-bowling should be illegal.

I really hate unopposed bowling. To me the main point of league bowling is to have some friendly competition. To have one team bowl either before or after the regular league time and not face their opponent robs the game of much of its appeal.

It's not like people pre-bowl for no good reason.

Given the choice between being robbed of it's appeal, and forfeiting.

Kiss the appeal good bye.

[Konvict1982]

Same as most of these guys if we pre-bowl it has to be a team decision not single members. With that said the one time my team pre-bowled I actually bowled above average at the time since I was able to hold my line longer with less people on the lanes but I can see how rushing could cause issues since I tend to break down fast when practicing endurance games shooting 6+ at one time quickly.

[dnhoffman]

That's interesting! I've never heard of team-only pre bowling. Here in saint Louis (I've only bowled leagues at 3 houses here, so I guess I can't speak for the entire city...) the standard is usually 2 pre-bowls a season (or a half-season) per person.

This is for things like vacation, work travel, etc when you can't get a sub

[Aslan]

For USBC sanctioned leagues, a legal line-up is required for pre- or post-bowling. So for most adult leagues individual pre-bowling should be illegal.

I really hate unopposed bowling. To me the main point of league bowling is to have some friendly competition. To have one team bowl either before or after the regular league time and not face their opponent robs the game of much of its appeal.

Agreed.

[bowl1820]

That's interesting! I've never heard of team-only pre bowling.

That's actually a USBC rule, unless a league rule states otherwise:

Rule 111 – Pre-bowl/Postponements
111a. Types
Types of pre-bowls and postponements:
1. Bowling in direct opposition.
2. Team unopposed bowling: Permitted, unless the league adopts a rule prohibiting
this type of competition.
3. Individual unopposed bowling:
a. Adult leagues: Prohibited, unless the league rules state otherwise.
b. Youth Leagues: Permitted, unless the league rules state otherwise.

[Sourtower]

That's actually a USBC rule, unless a league rule states otherwise:

Rule 111 – Pre-bowl/Postponements
111a. Types
Types of pre-bowls and postponements:
1. Bowling in direct opposition.
2. Team unopposed bowling: Permitted, unless the league adopts a rule prohibiting
this type of competition.
3. Individual unopposed bowling:
a. Adult leagues: Prohibited, unless the league rules state otherwise.
b. Youth Leagues: Permitted, unless the league rules state otherwise.

D'oh! I didn't know it wasn't permitted. I guess I'm going to have to find a way to show up to one of my leagues then since I was not going to be available for the next 4 out of 5 days due to work constraints. I was hoping I could prebowl. Guess I can talk to the league president about it...

[Mike White]

That's interesting! I've never heard of team-only pre bowling. Here in saint Louis (I've only bowled leagues at 3 houses here, so I guess I can't speak for the entire city...) the standard is usually 2 pre-bowls a season (or a half-season) per person.

This is for things like vacation, work travel, etc when you can't get a sub

Depending on how many people are required for a legal lineup some interesting problems could occur.

Lets say in a trio league, 1 person is considered a legal lineup.

On Wednesday you find you can't make it for your Thursday league.

You don't have time to contact your team mates so you go ahead and pre bowl on your own on Wednesday.

When Thursday comes along your other two teammates show up to bowl the regular time, but they would be denied since your "team" has already bowled.

It's not fair to void your scores, and it's not really fair to deny your team mates, but the rules are the rules.

Hopefully your league rules specifically allow for individual pre-bowl scores to be blended with regular scheduled bowling.

[Jaescrub]

My team hates when we have to pre or post bowl. I know it has to happen at some point in a 36 week stretch as that's how life is. But we do so much better in the heat of battle ha ha.

[bowl1820]

Depending on how many people are required for a legal lineup some interesting problems could occur.

Lets say in a trio league, 1 person is considered a legal lineup.

On Wednesday you find you can't make it for your Thursday league.

You don't have time to contact your team mates so you go ahead and pre bowl on your own on Wednesday.

When Thursday comes along your other two teammates show up to bowl the regular time, but they would be denied since your "team" has already bowled.

It's not fair to void your scores, and it's not really fair to deny your team mates, but the rules are the rules.

Hopefully your league rules specifically allow for individual pre-bowl scores to be blended with regular scheduled bowling.

Just because 1 person is considered a legal lineup, doesn't automatically mean if one person pre-bowls that they have pre-bowled for the whole team.

If the league didn't allow individual pre-bowling, the scores of the individual that pre-bowled would just be tossed. The two that showed up would be allowed to bowled and use a blind for the missing bowler.

[Mike White]

Just because 1 person is considered a legal lineup, doesn't automatically mean if one person pre-bowls that they have pre-bowled for the whole team.

If the league didn't allow individual pre-bowling, the scores of the individual that pre-bowled would just be tossed. The two that showed up would be allowed to bowled and use a blind for the missing bowler.

The league's board of directors can vote to void the pre bowled scores, but the default rule would deny the two that showed up at the scheduled time.

Take the example of 2 people pre bowl on a 4 person team. 2 makes a legal lineup. The 2 that show up at the regular time are screwed.

If you can't pre bowl as an individual, then 1 out of 3 has to be considered bowling as the team, just as 2 out of 4 would be bowling as the team.

[Aslan]

My team hates when we have to pre or post bowl. I know it has to happen at some point in a 36 week stretch as that's how life is. But we do so much better in the heat of battle ha ha.

I've only make-up bowled once and it didn't go well. It was a league that originally said they weren't bowling on Halloween and then did…and many of the teams didn't realize and didn't show. So the following week, we arranged to make-up bowl after our regular match. Well, we were mentally and physically exhausted so it didn't go well at all.

[MICHAEL]

Around here pre-bowling is for teams only, not individuals.

My Thursday team did a pre-bowl a few weeks ago, and to "pace" ourselves each individual bowls 2 frames then sits down and waits for the others to complete the same.

That way you end up bowling at about the same pace as league, but you only have to get up, walk down to the approach, and walk back to your seat half as often.

Where I bowl at, they still have the hard plastic bench seating, so nobody on my team sits near the lanes.

Us old guys need something soft to sit on.

Iceman, you'll like this.

One of my team mates pitched for the KC Royals back in 76-77

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hallto01.shtml

Interesting,,, is he a pretty good bowler? Looks like he played for several teams including the royals. I can't say I remember the name.....

[MICHAEL]

That's actually a USBC rule, unless a league rule states otherwise:

Rule 111 – Pre-bowl/Postponements
111a. Types
Types of pre-bowls and postponements:
1. Bowling in direct opposition.
2. Team unopposed bowling: Permitted, unless the league adopts a rule prohibiting
this type of competition.
3. Individual unopposed bowling:
a. Adult leagues: Prohibited, unless the league rules state otherwise.
b. Youth Leagues: Permitted, unless the league rules state otherwise.

UNLESS league rules state otherwise,,, I see a lot of individual pre bowling around here! I guess league rules supersede USBC rules!

[bowl1820]

The league's board of directors can vote to void the pre bowled scores, but the default rule would deny the two that showed up at the scheduled time.

Take the example of 2 people pre bowl on a 4 person team. 2 makes a legal lineup. The 2 that show up at the regular time are screwed.

If you can't pre bowl as an individual, then 1 out of 3 has to be considered bowling as the team, just as 2 out of 4 would be bowling as the team.

If a league has no individual unopposed pre-bowling , one person out of a team of 3 coming in and pre-bowling is not going to considered pre-bowling for the whole team. That is individual pre-bowling, it's not going to be considered a team pre-bowl for it to be a individual or team pre-bowl to begin with, you would have to get permission from the league, you just can't walk in and pre-bowl.(111d/6)

Now if the 3 player team was granted permission to pre-bowled and only 1 showed up for the pre-bowl, because 2 found out later they could bowl on the scheduled night and didn't come to the pre-bowl. Then the 2 that show up on the regular night might be screwed, that would have to be ran past the USBC rule dept. to be sure.

To see if they exhausted their eligibility for that league session even though they didn't actually bowl.

As for the 2 out of 4, it would depend on the situation,
Assuming the league rules allowed only team pre/post bowling and no individual pre/post bowling.

If the team was granted permission and all 4 pre-bowled and then 2 found out later they could bowl on the scheduled night and showed up. They can't drop their Pre-bowled scores and bowl because they exhausted their eligibility for that league session by pre-bowling. So in a manner of speaking they are screwed there.

Now if the team was granted permission to pre-bowled and only two showed up for the pre-bowl, because 2 found out later they could bowl on the scheduled night and didn't come to the pre-bowl. Then the 2 that show up on the regular night might be screwed, that would have to be ran past the USBC rule dept. to be sure.

To see if they exhausted their eligibility for that league session even though they didn't actually bowl and if they are allowed to bowl see if the 2 that did pre-bowled scores count

Now if only 2 players wanted to pre-bowl and they are just asking for themselves, that' s individual pre-bowling and that's not allowed by the rules so they can't pre-bowl.

And they can't just walk in and say we going to pre-bowl they have to have permission from the league first.

[Mike White]

If a league has no individual unopposed pre-bowling , one person out of a team of 3 coming in and pre-bowling is not going to considered pre-bowling for the whole team. That is individual pre-bowling, it's not going to be considered a team pre-bowl for it to be a individual or team pre-bowl to begin with, you would have to get permission from the league, you just can't walk in and pre-bowl.(111d/6)

There is conflict between 111b, and 111d.

111b. Reason
A league cannot adopt a rule that would have the effect of not permitting any pre-bowling/ postponements. The league must grant a pre-bowl/postponement when the team is unable to field a legal lineup for the following reasons:
1. Some of its bowlers are participating in the USBC Championships, state or local association championship tournaments or attending an annual meeting.
2. There is sufficient cause.
3. An emergency situation.

The "no individual unopposed pre-bowling" rule means you can take one bowlers pre bowl score, and combine that with the rest of the team's scores from the regularly scheduled day.

If one person is considered a legal lineup, and pre-bowls, the team would use his score, and the absent scores from the other bowlers.

[bowl1820]

There is conflict between 111b, and 111d.

111b. Reason
A league cannot adopt a rule that would have the effect of not permitting any pre-bowling/ postponements. The league must grant a pre-bowl/postponement when the team is unable to field a legal lineup for the following reasons:
1. Some of its bowlers are participating in the USBC Championships, state or local association championship tournaments or attending an annual meeting.
2. There is sufficient cause.
3. An emergency situation.


The "no individual unopposed pre-bowling" rule means you can take one bowlers pre bowl score, and combine that with the rest of the team's scores from the regularly scheduled day.
"no individual unopposed pre-bowling" Does not mean that. It means one person can't pre-bowl. It's also doesn't conflict with 111b because it's just limiting the types of pre/post bowling. Not blocking all pre/post bowling.

Now If a league has a rule that "Allows individual unopposed pre-bowling" then you can take one bowlers pre bowl score, and combine that with the rest of the team's scores from the regularly scheduled day.


Now about the situation you described:


If one person is considered a legal lineup, and pre-bowls, the team would use his score, and the absent scores from the other bowlers.

I asked the USBC rules department and they said if he followed proper procedures for Pre-bowling (Getting permission etc).

Then yes the games bowled by the individual who prebowled and two absentee scores would be used to determine wins and losses. Since one is a legal lineup and the league does not allow for individual prebowling, once the one individual prebowled, he did so as a team and those are the scores that are to be used for wins and losses.

But if he didn't follow procedures (Which he didn't in your example below), then the league could null and void his games because he did not follow proper procedures and then allow the other two player’s scores to count.

So your right to a extent.

MW:

"Lets say in a trio league, 1 person is considered a legal lineup.
On Wednesday you find you can't make it for your Thursday league.
You don't have time to contact your team mates so you go ahead and pre bowl on your own on Wednesday.
When Thursday comes along your other two teammates show up to bowl the regular time, but they would be denied since your "team" has already bowled."

[vdubtx]

Our teams just prefer to bowl the missing as a blind, but more often than not we just get a sub. Too many peoples' schedules to consider moving our "entire" league night to satisfy one bowler. Not gonna happen.

[MICHAEL]

Our teams just prefer to bowl the missing as a blind, but more often than not we just get a sub. Too many peoples' schedules to consider moving our "entire" league night to satisfy one bowler. Not gonna happen.

you are absolutely right on with your thoughts in regards to too many people have many different schedules, and other things that come up!


I think the reason they DO allow it in the league rules is to satisfy some bowlers that might not bowl on league do to cercimstanceses they have no control over! Work, Kids, School Functions, ect ect.

Biker Larry that I bowled with last year, had A work Issue every other week, so he had to prebowl, he usually did it the same day we had our regularly scheduled Thursday night meeting, he would just stick around and do it after our league. A lot of leagues around here are very flexible, do in part to the huge decline in bowlers compared to years gone by!!

I personally don't have a problem with Pre-bowling,,, its an honor system, and most people are fair about the cheating they do when not supervised! ;)

O,, I kid the Pre bowlers, they are the reason Hell was created by the lord! ( The cheating ONES)!!

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj302/JASONABADBOY4U2/HELL/HELL.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/JASONABADBOY4U2/media/HELL/HELL.jpg.html)

"O lord, says the guy in the back with his arms out stretched to the heavens,,, PLEASE Forgive me for Pre-bowling that day back in November of 1999!! I had no idea that it would get me here!!
Hell, if I had it all to do over again,,, I would have added even more points to my score, for I am a sinner lord,,,, PLEASE FORGIVE ME! Was it really my fault,,, Lucifer made me do it!!http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee483/restuamin/Demon-05.gif (http://media.photobucket.com/user/restuamin/media/Demon-05.gif.html)

[Aslan]

I personally don't have a problem with Pre-bowling,,, its an honor system, and most people are fair about the cheating they do when not supervised! ;)

That is in direct conflict with your feelings about the VBT.

[Mike White]

That is in direct conflict with your feelings about the VBT.

His original complaint was the handicap.

Then he was worried about cheating.

Tomorrow it will be because we aren't bowling on wood each month.

[ALazySavage]

My main problem is that pre-bowling can very easily turn into a lottery ticket of what condition the pre-bowling team gets to bowl on. If the center does not regulate the pre-bowl you can get a multitude of conditions to bowl on. In my limited pre-bowling experience I have seen both sides of this; I have had a session that I got stuck with heavy carrydown and the entire mess that follows a group of people all using house balls (a shot that ended up being much more difficult than a typical house shot) and shot terrible, but on the other end I have also seen a shot that I felt I had the most obscene wall to bump my shot off of (and pretty much knew we were sweeping that week).

[rv driver]

The leagues I've been on didn't have "pre-bowling" and "post-bowling." If you had to miss league, you missed.

[Blacksox1]

post bowling > pre-bowling.

[circlecity]

I'm not a fan of pre bowling. Last night in league the opposing team pre bowled. There are more negatives than positives for the team that showed up in my opinion.

[MICHAEL]

That is in direct conflict with your feelings about the VBT.

NO its not!! Read what I typed closely,,, FAIR about their cheating!! ICEMAN never cheats, but non-super-hero's, but mere mortals do! I see it all the time on the highways... People passing me like I am standing still, while I am going the speed limit! Law abiding citizens cheating on the highways of life! If you do it on the highway, well its just a short leap to pre-bowling!!!

[Mike White]

NO its not!! Read what I typed closely,,, FAIR about their cheating!! ICEMAN never cheats, but non-super-hero's, but mere mortals do! I see it all the time on the highways... People passing me like I am standing still, while I am going the speed limit! Law abiding citizens cheating on the highways of life! If you do it on the highway, well its just a short leap to pre-bowling!!!

Well in a way you could say that non-sport condition bowling is cheating.

If the BPAA hadn't pressured the ABC (now USBC) into relaxing the oil pattern rules, any 300 score shot on a THS would be declared illegal.

When is the last time ANY score has been tossed due to oil?

The wall of oil can make bowlers appear more accurate, and reactive bowling balls can make the bowler appear to throw the ball more fundamentally sound than they do.

The integrity of the game as gone out the window.

To use your highway analogy, people are no longer speeding, because they removed the speed limits.

[MICHAEL]

Well in a way you could say that non-sport condition bowling is cheating.

If the BPAA hadn't pressured the ABC (now USBC) into relaxing the oil pattern rules, any 300 score shot on a THS would be declared illegal.

When is the last time ANY score has been tossed due to oil?

The wall of oil can make bowlers appear more accurate, and reactive bowling balls can make the bowler appear to throw the ball more fundamentally sound than they do.

The integrity of the game as gone out the window.

To use your highway analogy, people are no longer speeding, because they removed the speed limits.

Really ,,,, the integrity has gone OUT the window? Where did it go?? Some might say that about MOST sports,,, golf, drivers the size of small cars, tennis rackets that are HUGE and very forgiving compared to the old rather small wooden ones, better gloves and equipment in baseball, its the nature and direction all sports go mike! But integrity out the window? I know its not the PERFECT analogy using equipment to oil, but its close.

It still takes a lot of talent to bowl a 300, or you and Rob with your knowledge would be rolling them left and right!

In Every sport equipment, has gotten better then in the past in order to give better scores, or increase you change of winning! Oil and balls that match up with the new oil is just another manifestation of cheating, you might say, compared to the past.

[fortheloveofbowling]

[QUOTE=Mike White;119204]Well in a way you could say that non-sport condition bowling is cheating.

If the BPAA hadn't pressured the ABC (now USBC) into relaxing the oil pattern rules, any 300 score shot on a THS would be declared illegal.

When is the last time ANY score has been tossed due to oil?



And still the usbc has not sanctioned the 900 Glen Allison shot 32 years ago on a second shift league to boot!

[Aslan]

And still the usbc has not sanctioned the 900 Glen Allison shot 32 years ago on a second shift league to boot!

I think Glenn still bowls in the Thursday night league there at the age of 83 and averages well over 200. THEREs a story Iceman would like. 83 and still bowling at a high level.

I actually almost joined that league. It's one of the rare ones that allows all mens teams in the area. Most are mixed and require at least one female bowler...which are in shorter supply.

[Mike White]

I think Glenn still bowls in the Thursday night league there at the age of 83 and averages well over 200. THEREs a story Iceman would like. 83 and still bowling at a high level.

I actually almost joined that league. It's one of the rare ones that allows all mens teams in the area. Most are mixed and require at least one female bowler...which are in shorter supply.

Maybe its around you that there is a shortage of female bowlers.

Glenn Allison shot 900 in an Anchor Girl Trio league, so I'm pretty sure they required at least one female.

Things may have changed in 30 years.

[Mike White]

Really ,,,, the integrity has gone OUT the window? Where did it go?? Some might say that about MOST sports,,, golf, drivers the size of small cars, tennis rackets that are HUGE and very forgiving compared to the old rather small wooden ones, better gloves and equipment in baseball, its the nature and direction all sports go mike! But integrity out the window? I know its not the PERFECT analogy using equipment to oil, but its close.

It still takes a lot of talent to bowl a 300, or you and Rob with your knowledge would be rolling them left and right!

In Every sport equipment, has gotten better then in the past in order to give better scores, or increase you change of winning! Oil and balls that match up with the new oil is just another manifestation of cheating, you might say, compared to the past.

Most of the guys averaging 200-210 would average about 160 before reactive resin, and "anything goes" oil patterns.

If they went back to the oil pattern rules, back when they inspected the lane after each honor score, there would be far less honor scores not rejected and reactive resin balls would be a whole lot harder to control.

Sport pattern leagues are similar, but even under those conditions, it's easier, and those rules reflect the differences.

In the past, if you shot an honor score, an ABC official (from your local association) would come to the center, and inspect your ball, the oil pattern, the pins, and the lanes to make sure everything is within specs.

That would be impossible today, partially due to financial reasons, and also due to the fact that the bowling ball itself will change the oil pattern.

It's quite possible to put down a pattern that would be legal based on the old rules, but then after bowling on the, become illegal.

Even on sport conditions they don't inspect the oil pattern after an honor score, they supposed to read the oil pattern after it's been applied, but before having been bowled on. And send those in to USBC. Who knows if that is actually done.

[J Anderson]

Even on sport conditions they don't inspect the oil pattern after an honor score, they supposed to read the oil pattern after it's been applied, but before having been bowled on. And send those in to USBC. Who knows if that is actually done.

I know that our was inspecting one lane each week and e-mailing the reading to everyone in the league. I think he's now posting it on Facebook. I assume he's also submitting the results to USBC.

[got_a_300]

In the past, if you shot an honor score, an ABC official (from your local association) would come to the center, and inspect your ball, the oil pattern, the pins, and the lanes to make sure everything is within specs.

Very true as back in the late 80's and into the late 90's when I was one of
the people from the local ABC association that had to go and do a through
inspection on the lanes, pull tape on the oil, and weigh and inspect the pins,
weigh and inspect the ball and check the ball surface for hardness / softness
after any kind of honor score was bowled.

Now days when an honor score is bowled it is just ho-hum fill out the paper work
and send it off and wait for their ring to come back.

No inspections of any kind except for the yearly certification inspection it's just like
oh well so what its just another honor score no big deal and that is the reason why
I decided to not accept the nomination to be back on the local USBC board of directors
when I returned to bowling as it is just no fun anymore not getting to do all of that.

[dnhoffman]

Where did this thread go? I don't even...