General Annoyances with High Rev ballers...a mini rant/observation

[Aslan]

So I was at a tournament yesterday...and there were two fellas in my first squad that were very high rev guys. Not "thumbless"...but pretty close to that style.

And...PER USUAL...when they were 'on'...they were pretty darn good. But they couldn't pick up spares and when they were 'off'...they were VERY off.

So during squad 1, I started getting annoyed...not with them...but with myself. Becuase IF straighter is greater...then a guy like me should easily beat these guys...especially given they were horrible spare shooters. BUT...in Squad 1 my spare shooting was 'off'. And a non-power stroker straighter player cannot AFFORD to have his/her spare shooting be 'off'. So, what should have been advantage...leading to a victory over these loud, obnoxious high rev dopes turned out to be me being uncompetitive.

So.."why" don't I like high rev players?

Well, the easy/psyche answer would be that I'm jealous/mad because I can't do that. That makes sense from a psychological standpoint.

But the other reasons I thought about was...thats not how bowling is SUPPOSED TO BE. I watch old black and white video of the Don Carters and the Carmen Salvinos and the Mike Limongellos....and you don't see that. That kinda "big hook" game doesn't even emerge on the radar until Mark Roth started spinning the **** out of the ball in the 70s. And even Roth...it wasn't THAT dramatic (most likely due to the balls being FAR weaker).

This new 'age' in bowling...it's just a free for all. Everyone does their own thing and there's no "right" way. You go back-up ballers and 2-handers and thumbless and crankers and tweeners and strokers and spinners...it's just MADNESS! How do you teach a bowler the RIGHT way to bowl when there is no RIGHT way to bowl??

Oh well. The point is...I can't be all self righteous about how the stroker/straighter style is best...until I'm rock solid on spare shooting and rock solid with my accuracy and repeatability. Until then, I just have to accept that the cranker/power style is going to have an advantage.

[Amyers]

I know just as many cranker/high rev bowlers who are good spare shooters than I do straight low rev bowlers. Just because you blow it up in your mind doesn't make it fact. I will agree with you on most thumbless and some two handers although I've been bowling with a two hander lately who is changing my mind on their ability. Their have always been bowlers with different styles modern equipment just makes those alternate styles more noticeable.

[mc_runner]

It's a tradeoff, they've traded the ability for more carry and show; for accuracy and less spares. The best combo will obviously be if they ever learn to put the whole game together.

As for what bowling is supposed to be, can't really agree... games and sports always evolve. Why wouldn't you give yourself more of an advantage by using the best technique available? It's like when basketball added the 3-point line. All of a sudden, shooters came in and the long range shot entered. When the first would-be soccer players joined the NFL and field goals became further and more accurate, instead of toeing the ball... I don't think you'd find anyone saying those were "bad" things. Graphite golf clubs instead of wood, etc... the list goes on and on. Basketball was "supposed" to be played with peach baskets, soccer balls, and there wasn't even dribbling, only passing to move!

People will always improve upon things and use what gives the best outcome. Straight and super accurate was the way to go back in the 40s and 50s, but it's not the 40s anymore. Someday you might be a cranker or a power stroker and get that carry. Took me 8 years to get higher revs, and this is the first year actually throwing it (and there've been some growing pains). Would I go back to my previous style? Nope!

And, when you start getting the carry, along with all the spare work you put in - you're gonna see yourself start killing those guys in games.

All just my unsolicited opinion, of course :)

[RobLV1]

Let's not make this any more complicated than it is. The goal is to knock down as many pins as possible, as consistently as possible. How it's done is irrelevant, as long as it gets done.

[Aslan]

I know just as many cranker/high rev bowlers who are good spare shooters than I do straight low rev bowlers. Just because you blow it up in your mind doesn't make it fact. I will agree with you on most thumbless and some two handers although I've been bowling with a two hander lately who is changing my mind on their ability. Their have always been bowlers with different styles modern equipment just makes those alternate styles more noticeable.

Hey...there are lots of thumbless and 2-handers and crankers that'll prove me wrong...I agree.

I was just thinking outloud about the particular example I saw. These guys were chucking that thing half way down the lane...lofting the gutters...and then when they left something...they threw the same ball. One guy would throw it "back-up style" to pick up spares. And they weren't very good at it! I'd like to think a plastic ball would solve their problem...but I'm not sure. I think they just really LIKE throwing that big curve...and when they leave something...it's almost an annoyance to have to throw differently.

But yes...I was MORE ANNOYED with me missing two single-pin spares in game 1 than I was about their high rev activities. Granted, those were the only 2 single-pin spares I missed out of 9 games...but still. To keep up with those guys striking left and right...I can't even afford to miss one makeable spare.

And I couldn't figure it out. I saw the scoring slips...these guys have 200+ averages. How can they maintain that average with spare shooting that looked to be about 40%? All I could think was;

1) If you strike enough...a missed spare here and there doesn't hurt you.
2) These guys were from the same house...maybe their game is perfect for that house and they don't leave as many spares.

I don't know. The cool thing was watching the mental game. When high average bowlers start bowling badly...it's not pretty.

I bowled against one guy on the second Squad...210+ average...and this guy couldn't buy a break. Split after split after split. Solid hits leaving 8-pins or the 8-10. I think he bowled a 498 or something...and was PISSED.

Another guy, a kid, he and I were chatting between squads...then were on the same squad for Squad 3...and he also was just having a rough evening...and that was the squad I was hammering the competition (won 2 of the 3 sidepots and the men's bracket). Well, MWhite knew the kid and I guess the kid thought I was a ringer or sandbagger or something!! Thats a HUGE compliment!! I didn't even BELONG in Division A...I got bumped up because of the stupid 149 average in a sport league...yet this kid thought I was sandbagging?? So what, I belong in the 181+ Classic division??

I'm sure MWhite set him straight. I mean, ME...a sandbagger? Just show the kid the trouncing I took in Vegas at the AVI. Have him come watch me and my lofty 161 average on Tuesdays. Sanbagger/Ringer INDEED!!!

[rv driver]

So I was at a tournament yesterday...and there were two fellas in my first squad that were very high rev guys. Not "thumbless"...but pretty close to that style.

And...PER USUAL...when they were 'on'...they were pretty darn good. But they couldn't pick up spares and when they were 'off'...they were VERY off.

So during squad 1, I started getting annoyed...not with them...but with myself. Becuase IF straighter is greater...then a guy like me should easily beat these guys...especially given they were horrible spare shooters. BUT...in Squad 1 my spare shooting was 'off'. And a non-power stroker straighter player cannot AFFORD to have his/her spare shooting be 'off'. So, what should have been advantage...leading to a victory over these loud, obnoxious high rev dopes turned out to be me being uncompetitive.

So.."why" don't I like high rev players?

Well, the easy/psyche answer would be that I'm jealous/mad because I can't do that. That makes sense from a psychological standpoint.

But the other reasons I thought about was...thats not how bowling is SUPPOSED TO BE. I watch old black and white video of the Don Carters and the Carmen Salvinos and the Mike Limongellos....and you don't see that. That kinda "big hook" game doesn't even emerge on the radar until Mark Roth started spinning the **** out of the ball in the 70s. And even Roth...it wasn't THAT dramatic (most likely due to the balls being FAR weaker).

This new 'age' in bowling...it's just a free for all. Everyone does their own thing and there's no "right" way. You go back-up ballers and 2-handers and thumbless and crankers and tweeners and strokers and spinners...it's just MADNESS! How do you teach a bowler the RIGHT way to bowl when there is no RIGHT way to bowl??

Oh well. The point is...I can't be all self righteous about how the stroker/straighter style is best...until I'm rock solid on spare shooting and rock solid with my accuracy and repeatability. Until then, I just have to accept that the cranker/power style is going to have an advantage.
Tom Daugherty threw a 100 in a televised PBA match in 2011. Cranked the holy crap outta the ball and just couldn't knock the pins down. If he'd thrown down and in for accuracy -- changed his game plan -- he might have been able to score higher. he just kept doing the same thing, hoping for a better outcome. Maybe what's needed is a more diverse tool box...

[Mike White]

Tom Daugherty threw a 100 in a televised PBA match in 2011. Cranked the holy crap outta the ball and just couldn't knock the pins down. If he'd thrown down and in for accuracy -- changed his game plan -- he might have been able to score higher. he just kept doing the same thing, hoping for a better outcome. Maybe what's needed is a more diverse tool box...

Also consider cranking the holy crap out of the ball is what got him into the finals to begin with.

After a few frames of trouble, he was so far behind (Mika ended up with a 299 game) that he was just trying to save face, yet the troubles persisted.

[Mike White]

Hey...there are lots of thumbless and 2-handers and crankers that'll prove me wrong...I agree.

I was just thinking outloud about the particular example I saw. These guys were chucking that thing half way down the lane...lofting the gutters...and then when they left something...they threw the same ball. One guy would throw it "back-up style" to pick up spares. And they weren't very good at it! I'd like to think a plastic ball would solve their problem...but I'm not sure. I think they just really LIKE throwing that big curve...and when they leave something...it's almost an annoyance to have to throw differently.

But yes...I was MORE ANNOYED with me missing two single-pin spares in game 1 than I was about their high rev activities. Granted, those were the only 2 single-pin spares I missed out of 9 games...but still. To keep up with those guys striking left and right...I can't even afford to miss one makeable spare.

And I couldn't figure it out. I saw the scoring slips...these guys have 200+ averages. How can they maintain that average with spare shooting that looked to be about 40%? All I could think was;

1) If you strike enough...a missed spare here and there doesn't hurt you.
2) These guys were from the same house...maybe their game is perfect for that house and they don't leave as many spares.

I don't know. The cool thing was watching the mental game. When high average bowlers start bowling badly...it's not pretty.

I bowled against one guy on the second Squad...210+ average...and this guy couldn't buy a break. Split after split after split. Solid hits leaving 8-pins or the 8-10. I think he bowled a 498 or something...and was PISSED.

Another guy, a kid, he and I were chatting between squads...then were on the same squad for Squad 3...and he also was just having a rough evening...and that was the squad I was hammering the competition (won 2 of the 3 sidepots and the men's bracket). Well, MWhite knew the kid and I guess the kid thought I was a ringer or sandbagger or something!! Thats a HUGE compliment!! I didn't even BELONG in Division A...I got bumped up because of the stupid 149 average in a sport league...yet this kid thought I was sandbagging?? So what, I belong in the 181+ Classic division??

I'm sure MWhite set him straight. I mean, ME...a sandbagger? Just show the kid the trouncing I took in Vegas at the AVI. Have him come watch me and my lofty 161 average on Tuesdays. Sanbagger/Ringer INDEED!!!

The guy thought you might be a sandbagger because your average was listed as 140's, and your low game that last squad was 177.

Speaking of the crankers... Doesn't it make you wonder how they can hit a small target like the 1-3 pocket over and over, yet can't pick up a 4 pin, or 10 pin?

Well it goes back to the guiding wall of oil. The guide is pointed towards the pocket. There is no help getting to the 4 or 10 pin. Without help, they look pretty weak.

Actually on a THS, the 10 pin is harder than it used to be for crankers with resin balls because the closer the ball gets to the 10 pin, the hard it is to keep the ball out there.

Also hitting the pocket HARD has become much easier for crankers because the ball sticks to the lane better, and the oil keeps all that hitting power under control.

If the oil length, or width changes, what worked for one guy, doesn't work anymore, but now another guy has the "gift".

If they put a fairly light and flat pattern out, people couldn't use resin balls, so they would have to earn any back end motion, and with the flat pattern, the ball goes where it is thrown, not redirected by the oil.

[Mike White]

Let's not make this any more complicated than it is. The goal is to knock down as many pins as possible, as consistently as possible. How it's done is irrelevant, as long as it gets done.

How it's done has a lot to do with how likely a person is to be able to do it again.

[Jaescrub]

Why so much hate ha ha ha. I like bowling teams with different style bowlers. I use to wana be a cranker. But I'm not and I know I never will be So I'm starting to like the way I bowl and just roll with it :) you should too.

[rv driver]

Also consider cranking the holy crap out of the ball is what got him into the finals to begin with.

After a few frames of trouble, he was so far behind (Mika ended up with a 299 game) that he was just trying to save face, yet the troubles persisted.
Well, yeah, that's why I said that what's really needed is a more diverse tool box. When the crank wasn't working for him, why not try throwing down and in?

[Amyers]

Hey...there are lots of thumbless and 2-handers and crankers that'll prove me wrong...I agree.

I was just thinking outloud about the particular example I saw. These guys were chucking that thing half way down the lane...lofting the gutters...and then when they left something...they threw the same ball. One guy would throw it "back-up style" to pick up spares. And they weren't very good at it! I'd like to think a plastic ball would solve their problem...but I'm not sure. I think they just really LIKE throwing that big curve...and when they leave something...it's almost an annoyance to have to throw differently.

But yes...I was MORE ANNOYED with me missing two single-pin spares in game 1 than I was about their high rev activities. Granted, those were the only 2 single-pin spares I missed out of 9 games...but still. To keep up with those guys striking left and right...I can't even afford to miss one makeable spare.

And I couldn't figure it out. I saw the scoring slips...these guys have 200+ averages. How can they maintain that average with spare shooting that looked to be about 40%? All I could think was;

1) If you strike enough...a missed spare here and there doesn't hurt you.
2) These guys were from the same house...maybe their game is perfect for that house and they don't leave as many spares.

I don't know. The cool thing was watching the mental game. When high average bowlers start bowling badly...it's not pretty.

I bowled against one guy on the second Squad...210+ average...and this guy couldn't buy a break. Split after split after split. Solid hits leaving 8-pins or the 8-10. I think he bowled a 498 or something...and was PISSED.

Another guy, a kid, he and I were chatting between squads...then were on the same squad for Squad 3...and he also was just having a rough evening...and that was the squad I was hammering the competition (won 2 of the 3 sidepots and the men's bracket). Well, MWhite knew the kid and I guess the kid thought I was a ringer or sandbagger or something!! Thats a HUGE compliment!! I didn't even BELONG in Division A...I got bumped up because of the stupid 149 average in a sport league...yet this kid thought I was sandbagging?? So what, I belong in the 181+ Classic division??

I'm sure MWhite set him straight. I mean, ME...a sandbagger? Just show the kid the trouncing I took in Vegas at the AVI. Have him come watch me and my lofty 161 average on Tuesdays. Sanbagger/Ringer INDEED!!!

The ultimate compliment to be accused as a sandbagger. The two hander I was talking about can throw the backup hook still two handed at his right side stuff he's pretty awesome and seems to be more consistent than most two handers I've seen. Doesn't have as much loft as most of the two hand guys I've bowled with either which is nice. I'm still yet to see a consistent thumbless bowler though I'm sure there are some out there but I haven't seen one just not sure why you would develop that style.

[mc_runner]

There are 2 thumbless bowlers in my Tuesday night league, they averaged a 216 and 212 last year. One is more power, one more finesse. Neither are young guys, either - I'm sure they've both had that style for many years and perfected it.

[Aslan]

The guy thought you might be a sandbagger because your average was listed as 140's, and your low game that last squad was 177.

But you DID set him straight right? I mean, the listed average of 149...was my SPORT average...which using the adjustment chart is a????

173

Now, that average was over 24 games that I filled in at the tail end of a sport league. BARELY enough games to even qualify.

I actually felt it was UNFAIR to use that as my average because:
A) It is NOT my USBC Sanctioned Average for last season...the actual combined average is 166.
B) It took into account the average of 24 games...but NOT the average I bowled in the OCUSBC league where I bowled a 166 average over 66 games!
C) My averages since starting bowling in the end of 2013 are 165, 166, and 172. And that 172 was as a sub over only 12 games. The 165 and 166 are over 132 games (66 each season).

So this kid...a Division A (> 170 average) player felt I was SANDBAGGING DIVSION A because I had a 149 SPORT average...which means he thought I should actually be in what? The CLASSIC division!?? I get bumped into a division I don't belong in...and then I bowl ONE good squad and he wants me bumped into the Division ABOVE THAT ONE!??

They used 173 as my average and I won 3 sidepots bowling a 221 (Squad 1), a 217 (Squad 3), and a 199 (Squad 3) and I won the Squad 3 bracket beating HIM in the final game when I rolled a 177 and beat him SCRATCH!!!

So I bowl 48 pins, 44 pins, and 26 pins OVER my UNFAIR average of 173...then beat him SCRATCH in the bracket finals....yet somehow it's not FAIR and I should get bumped up and bowl against the guys averaging >189...despite my 166 sanctioned composite average, the fact that I've NEVER averaged over 166 in a full league, and despite the fact that I currently have a 161 average in my Tuesday night league???

I'm just glad HE knocked D. Polus out in the 2nd round of the brackets and I knocked of "Mac" in Round 2. Because in Game 3, Mac shot a 260 and D.P. shot a 280...so if ANYONE should be pissed...it should be those two 200+ average bowlers that got bumped in the 2nd round.

And for crying out loud...I won like $53 total. I spent like $97 (not counting lunch and the pro shop stuff) so it's not like I walked out of there with cash falling out of my pockets.

[Aslan]

AND...I'll be SHOCKED if I win Division A (results not yet posted) with a 593 series.

I figured I'd need > 590 to win Division B...probably > 650 to win Division A. In the end, I imagine I'll be the one that gets screwed when the results get posted and my 593 would have won me Division B.

But, whatever. IF I DO win Division A...I may turn down the invite to the state tournament anyways and try my luck in Division B for Orange County. I don't want to represent Citrus Belt in Division A if I'm not really a Division A bowler. Maybe they'll let me represent both...but I don't think thats how it works.

It doesn't matter...because the odds I won Division A with a 593 are not good...and the odds I can win Divsion B in Orange Counter (bigger tournament and tougher competition) are also not good.

[Mike White]

But you DID set him straight right?

Yeah I told him those scores were a fluke, and how you normally suck :)


I mean, the listed average of 149...was my SPORT average...which using the adjustment chart is a????

173

Now, that average was over 24 games that I filled in at the tail end of a sport league. BARELY enough games to even qualify.



You were bowing outside of your association, and in this association, the only games you had listed in the book were from that sport league.

The people running the tourney are from the days where phones didn't even have a dial tone, so don't expect them to go onto bowl.com to get a complete history.

Clearly there are flaws in the average conversion from sport to rec. bowling but the rules are the rules.

[swingset]

It's a sport - there are trends, but there's never been (and never will be) a consensus on how it should be played. And, I don't care what era you think is "right"...even then people were expanding the boundaries and developing different styles.

The 50's and 60's were a "modern" era that the older guys then said was "too much power" and "using too much body english" compared to what they grew up with.

Knock the pins over. That's what the game is supposed to be.

[bobforsaken]

I tried doing some funny high rev release... I just ended up with a ton of funny splits. I'll stick with my sub 300 Revs and my upright release that allows me to play for hours without tiring.

[mike_thomas93]

I've thrown a few shots that way. I actually used to bowl backup a little bit when I was younger. Might think about adding that to my style :p mm nah

[got_a_300]

We have a couple of thumbless bowlers in our Thursday
night league one has a 200+ average and the other might
have a 120-130 average but he can bowl so much better as
a two hander but he wants to stick with the thumbless one
handed style.

Now as for the game of bowling changing over the years it
has to change or become stagnant and die off as it has died
off way too much the way it is now without change the game
of bowling would be dead and gone.

[epiepenburg]

We have a couple of thumbless bowlers in our Thursday
night league one has a 200+ average and the other might
have a 120-130 average but he can bowl so much better as
a two hander but he wants to stick with the thumbless one
handed style.

Now as for the game of bowling changing over the years it
has to change or become stagnant and die off as it has died
off way too much the way it is now without change the game
of bowling would be dead and gone.

I bowl in two leagues with a team mate who is a thumbless bowler. He throws a plastic ball. He carry a around a 200-205 average between both leagues. I will say there are some nights where he can be off, but he is fairly consistent.

[Hobbit]

It can be frustrating when u are struggling, and other bowlers using different styles seem to have that "hot" hand.. But like the tide it comes and goes..

The key, to bowling IMHO, is consistency... It always has been, regardless of revs, speed and style.. You have to get it in the right spot, have to read the lanes, and be consistent in your approach and release.. If u can't do ALL these things, u will struggle forever sadly :(
Personally, I'm doing ok, but know that there are small things in my game that hold me back, that difference is prob 20 plus pins!

Case in point, I bowled 7 games a few days ago, walked away with 202 ave for practise, hadn't bowled for couple of weeks, anyway just to paint the picture here...Tracked my games using an IPhone app where I put in each frame, and it gives me the data on completion of my bowling.. I struck 45%, spared 33% and open frames were like 11% from memory.. There's the news!!! ....So what have I learnt from just one practise session:: I need to work at spares, and improving the quality of my first ball to avoid splits also...This is what I am going to be working on.

On a side note here, that same night, I had beside me on the lanes an elderly Asian bowler beside, we exchanged a few polite glances.. anyway, he was the SMOOTHEST bowler I have ever seen.. His wife was watching him, upon finishing bowling I said to the guys wifes that your husband is a great bowler.. He just used one ball, leftie, slow stroker, and bowled every game over 200 bar one! Anyway, the wife said he's 74yrs and represents Japan in masters tournaments.. Averages beyond 225... The most easily repeatable technique I have seen, little wonder he is still bowling strong and well into his 70's..

My point Aslan, sorry for being so long winded here, but u described yourself as something similar, slow stroker, u know what, if that suits u, stick with it, and u are improving.. I am a slowish 2 handed med revs stroker if that is at all humanly possibly , it works for me (most times!).. Work with what u have, and improve it, identify weakness in your game, and make them strengths?? Just a thought

This guy just had the ball in the right spot, frame to frame, crankers might get that fortunate break of the dishwasher pin exploding experience on pin deck, but are prone to leaving some nasty splits.. He beat me by 20 plus pins on most games, it all came down to consistency.. This guy had truck loads of it!!

[Aslan]

I bowl in two leagues with a team mate who is a thumbless bowler. He throws a plastic ball. He carry a around a 200-205 average between both leagues. I will say there are some nights where he can be off, but he is fairly consistent.
It's possible. Just rare. I bowled in a Thursday league last season and one of the better bowlers was a thumbless bowler…averaged 190-205. So it's possible.


Work with what u have, and improve it, identify weakness in your game, and make them strengths?? Just a thought

My coach mentioned that and I know I heard that from other coaches as well. I was being taught something that the coach normally doesn't teach students…for a variety of reasons…but because I have a tendency to loft…and trying not to loft is causing me some difficulties…but me lofting the "wrong" way is 'bad'…the coach worked with me on the technique. And the coach echoed what you kind've eluded to…that the key to good coaching is taking what a person is comfortable doing and is a strength…and then maximizing that while fixing some other issues that are critical to performance.

The only counter to that argument…depends on what your ultimate goals are. If you're ultimate goal is to be a 160-180 average house bowler on a THS playing in 1-2 leagues a week…you have it made! Because with a little coaching and some practice…you've reached your goal!! But if your goals are more lofty…if you have bigger dreams…you may have to make some real changes to what you do to get to that level. Thats why you see PBA pros often getting coaching and changing their games. Why do they do that? They are in the PBA and could average 224 in any house league. But see…they have goals that are bigger than that. And the bigger the goals…the more you may have to work and even alter your game to something you might 'not' be good at naturally.

[Hobbit]

Aslan, u are right re pros taking coaching/instruction.. Tiger Woods still has coaching, Nadal/Joker/Murray all have a coach, obviously there is a reason!!

re goals, that is the way to go, bowling is fantastic for establishing goals.. In fact I can't imagine bowling without having a couple of goals, both short to long term goals in place..

re pros bowling 224 in most to any league, probably bit higher than that I'm guessing.. Closer to 240 or thereabouts

[J Anderson]

Aslan, u are right re pros taking coaching/instruction.. Tiger Woods still has coaching, Nadal/Joker/Murray all have a coach, obviously there is a reason!!

re goals, that is the way to go, bowling is fantastic for establishing goals.. In fact I can't imagine bowling without having a couple of goals, both short to long term goals in place..

re pros bowling 224 in most to any league, probably bit higher than that I'm guessing.. Closer to 240 or thereabouts

Even for a pro it's hard to average much more than 230 for a whole season even on a THS. Admittedly, Jeff Carter holds the USBC season average record at 261.7 and Mike Scroggins is second at 256.8, but those are really off the scale.

[epiepenburg]

Aslan, u are right re pros taking coaching/instruction.. Tiger Woods still has coaching, Nadal/Joker/Murray all have a coach, obviously there is a reason!!

re goals, that is the way to go, bowling is fantastic for establishing goals.. In fact I can't imagine bowling without having a couple of goals, both short to long term goals in place..

re pros bowling 224 in most to any league, probably bit higher than that I'm guessing.. Closer to 240 or thereabouts

I would agree probably 240 average or better. In one of my leagues there are three guys who are all on the same team and are sponsered by bowling companies (DV8, Brunswick, and Motiv), two of the guys average in the 230's. They pretty much throw 700 series every week. One guy has had two 299's and a 298 this year. One night he went 298-299-238. Pretty hard to compete with these guys, thankfully our handicaps are based off of 90% of 240.

[Aslan]

Pretty hard to compete with these guys, thankfully our handicaps are based off of 90% of 240.

I'm pretty sure they must LOVE that!

[vdubtx]

All of my bowling friends that are on regional tour average 240+ on house shots.

[epiepenburg]

I'm pretty sure they must LOVE that!

Handicap was raised this year because of them joining the league. It's their first year in the league.

These guys all show up with 6 or 7 balls each night.

[vdubtx]

In our leagues that some of the regionals bowl in they actually get negative handicap. Ours is 90% of 230, so if they are 240 average they are giving pins back. Some got mad and quit the first week after that rule got pushed through a vote.

[Hobbit]

How did they feel about the handicap system changing on their account?

Also how are they going this season with that system in place?

[zdawg]

In our leagues that some of the regionals bowl in they actually get negative handicap. Ours is 90% of 230, so if they are 240 average they are giving pins back. Some got mad and quit the first week after that rule got pushed through a vote.

So here's an honest question (not meant to be smartass or derogatory), if they bowl in the PBA regional events, and average 240+ on THS, why are they even wasting their time with handicap leagues? If they're just doing it for fun then I don't understand why they would get mad about the rule change, if anything that would provide a better challenge, no?

On the other hand I know some areas don't have many options, so if that's the only league available I guess I could understand that, just wondering.

[RobLV1]

In most cases handicap leagues are all bowlers only options. Even "scratch" leagues are really "almost scratch" where there is still a difference in team handicap. On one hand, higher average bowlers always have a mathematical advantage over lower average bowlers where the handicap difference is less than 100%. On the other hand, the lower average bowlers are often more motivated to beat the high average guys resulting in the high average bowlers seemingly walking around with targets on their backs. Personally, I really love having the opportunity to bowl against great bowlers, as it gives me a chance to see up close and personal what makes them so good. As long as the league in which they bowl is not a really low average recreational league, I really haven't seen that they dominate at all.

[zdawg]

In most cases handicap leagues are all bowlers only options. Even "scratch" leagues are really "almost scratch" where there is still a difference in team handicap. On one hand, higher average bowlers always have a mathematical advantage over lower average bowlers where the handicap difference is less than 100%. On the other hand, the lower average bowlers are often more motivated to beat the high average guys resulting in the high average bowlers seemingly walking around with targets on their backs. Personally, I really love having the opportunity to bowl against great bowlers, as it gives me a chance to see up close and personal what makes them so good. As long as the league in which they bowl is not a really low average recreational league, I really haven't seen that they dominate at all.

Thanks for the info Rob. I suppose it makes sense, you have more recreational bowlers in leagues than PBA regional (or pro) competitors hence more handicap leagues.

[RobLV1]

I'm actually bowling in an almost scratch league this fall, and I really enjoy the format. It works like this: There are four-man (or woman) teams with a maxiumum entering average of 865, based on the last year's league for bowlers who bowled, or book averages for bowlers who didn't bowl the previous year. As a requirement, each team lineup is set up with the lowest average bowler bowling leadoff, second low second, etc., with the highest average on the team being the anchor man. We bowl three games, with five possible points per game, with another five for totals. The individual points are determined man-to-man, scratch. The man-to-man totals are also scratch. The team totals for each game as well as series are based on handicap, though in all honesty, the handicap difference is usually really very little based on the fact that teams choose players to get their entering average as close to 865 as possible.

As the low guy on the team (currently at 199), I lead off, and usually bowl others who range from 180 to 210 in average. While on paper this gives me an advantage some of the time and puts me at a disadvantage other times, it is usually pretty evenly matched. The nice thing about this format, is that while there are several PBA National and Regional players in the league (Jake Peters, David Haynes, and Andrew Graff just to name a few), it makes it very even because of the format. When we bowl against a team with a very high average anchor man, the lead off guy will usually have a lower average.

I must say that it's a lot of fun bowling with such great bowlers!

[epiepenburg]

How did they feel about the handicap system changing on their account?

Also how are they going this season with that system in place?

They are in 4th out of 12 the last time I looked. They all are there for fun anyway.

[epiepenburg]

In most cases handicap leagues are all bowlers only options. Even "scratch" leagues are really "almost scratch" where there is still a difference in team handicap. On one hand, higher average bowlers always have a mathematical advantage over lower average bowlers where the handicap difference is less than 100%. On the other hand, the lower average bowlers are often more motivated to beat the high average guys resulting in the high average bowlers seemingly walking around with targets on their backs. Personally, I really love having the opportunity to bowl against great bowlers, as it gives me a chance to see up close and personal what makes them so good. As long as the league in which they bowl is not a really low average recreational league, I really haven't seen that they dominate at all.

I agree, it makes the rest of us want to bowl better. One of the guys throws for DV8 which is the equipment I use. When I got my thug! I didn't care for it at first. The first night I threw it was in league (probably a mistake), but he happened to be bowling on the next pair. He encouraged me to keep throwing the ball versus switching, watched me throw a couple shots, and where I should move. A week later with the move made, I threw a 300 with the ball.

I hope the guys stay in the league, they are fun to watch. They all have their nights, I beat them scratch bowling in one of the games on the first night we played them. I threw a 244 and beat their best score by a few pins that game.

[Aslan]

So here's an honest question (not meant to be smartass or derogatory), if they bowl in the PBA regional events, and average 240+ on THS, why are they even wasting their time with handicap leagues? If they're just doing it for fun then I don't understand why they would get mad about the rule change, if anything that would provide a better challenge, no?

On the other hand I know some areas don't have many options, so if that's the only league available I guess I could understand that, just wondering.

Thats a completely legitimate question. I thought the same thing.

I mean, handicap is supposed to adjust for that...but still....would I be allowed to be on an 8th grade basketball team if I spot the other team 12 points?

But...I've seen it in golf. Lots of guys that at one point got good enough to get a PGA card or something like that...then they don't fare well at that level and start dominating in golf leagues and local tournaments. As long as there's handicap involved, it evens the playing field.

Hell, I used to go on an annual golf outing and I actually won the annual trophy one year. There were at least 3 scratch golfers in the outing that I beat. But when they calculate your handicap based on shooting in the 140s (for 18)...and then in the championship round you somehow have the best day of golf you've ever had....there's just no way for even a great golfer to beat you...even though scratch they probably beat me by 20 strokes.

[Aslan]

I'm actually bowling in an almost scratch league this fall, and I really enjoy the format. It works like this: There are four-man (or woman) teams with a maxiumum entering average of 865, based on the last year's league for bowlers who bowled, or book averages for bowlers who didn't bowl the previous year. As a requirement, each team lineup is set up with the lowest average bowler bowling leadoff, second low second, etc., with the highest average on the team being the anchor man. We bowl three games, with five possible points per game, with another five for totals. The individual points are determined man-to-man, scratch. The man-to-man totals are also scratch. The team totals for each game as well as series are based on handicap, though in all honesty, the handicap difference is usually really very little based on the fact that teams choose players to get their entering average as close to 865 as possible.

That sounds very interesting in terms of format.

I'm thinking of trying to start a sport league at my current center. There's been 'some' interest from the pro shop guy and some guys he talked to...I just don't know if there'd be ENOUGH interest to start a league. The center will likely want at least 12 teams or 48 participants. And thats a tall order. In my current sport league at a different center, I think we only have like 9 teams and 26 participants...and that league has been around for awhile.

But if I borrowed THAT format...lets say make it a 3-man team with a cap at 560 based on their book averages...lowest average player always bowls first, highest average always bowls last...man-to-man scratch, team handicap...4 games...that would be like 17 points available per week? (3 points per game, 1 point handicap game total per game...x 4 games = 4 x 4 = 16...then a point for handicap total) Did I calculate that right for a 3-man team?

Do players change position if their handicaps go up and down? What if you are #2 with a starting average of 183 and your leadoff person has a 179. But as the season progresses...your leadoff bowler's average goes above your #2 bowler? Do they automatically switch positions? What if your team comes in with THIS:

Player 1: 178
Player 2: 190
Player 3: 190

Total = 558

By the end of the season their averages are:
Player 1 = 183
Player 2 = 195
Player 3 = 191

Total = 569

Is that team forced to disband because they are over the 560 limit? If so, I'd be tempted to add in a clause that established teams can stay together even if their team exceeds 560...it would amost be an incentive that keeps the league strong and teams coming back...because if a team member leaves...you might have to find a 160 average bowler to get your team back under 560. Of course, that could also lead to some real sandbagging issues if a team with a few 220 average bowlers...tank a season and get a 185 book...all get in the league...then start bowling in the 220s...and there's no way to get rid of them at that poing even though they as a team are at 660 instead of 560.

I mean, I like bowling with Mike W. in the Sunday morning sport shot league out in Norco...it's just that 8AM on a Sunday...kinda rough...and the league just doesn't have a huge draw given that it's in the Citrus Belt USBC. A simliar league...in Orange County...I think would have a better draw...but I'd like to see a change that makes the leagues capped at 560...cuz right now in our sport league...Mike is actually better off if me and the other person don't even show up because a vacant person gets you 160 where as I'm carrying a 152 (sport). And the same team seems to always win the league...because they have 2 guys with 200+ sport averages and a guy with a 190s sport average...and a 200 average sub. And if the league was in Orange County...where there are more higher average bowlers (in terms of volume...there are just simply many, many more bowlers in the pool)...I could see teams getting formed where they'd be nearly unbeatable without a that limit.

Do they give you a league sheet that has all the rules and details? If so, could you do me a favor and scan/send it to me? I could copy it, make some slight changes, and use it for the league I want to propose.

Granted....it'll be just my luck that it would actually take off and become a cool league...and then I end up having to move to Iowa in a year or so and can't participate. It'd be harder to start a league that in a more rural type of area/state. Starting it in Orange County makes a lot of sense because you're drawing from 3 different nearby USBCs and a huge population of bowlers. Starting one in some city in Iowa...even if you're near Des Moines...it could be tough to get enough people interested.

[Mike White]

In our leagues that some of the regionals bowl in they actually get negative handicap. Ours is 90% of 230, so if they are 240 average they are giving pins back. Some got mad and quit the first week after that rule got pushed through a vote.

Were they mad because of the negative number?

How about if the rule just changed to 90% of 250, that way nobody gets negative pins.

Sounds to me like they realized the rule (90% of 230 with no negative pins) was to their advantage, and they didn't like losing that advantage.

[J Anderson]

That sounds very interesting in terms of format.

Do players change position if their handicaps go up and down? What if you are #2 with a starting average of 183 and your leadoff person has a 179. But as the season progresses...your leadoff bowler's average goes above your #2 bowler? Do they automatically switch positions? What if your team comes in with THIS:

Player 1: 178
Player 2: 190
Player 3: 190

Total = 558

By the end of the season their averages are:
Player 1 = 183
Player 2 = 195
Player 3 = 191

Total = 569

Is that team forced to disband because they are over the 560 limit? If so, I'd be tempted to add in a clause that established teams can stay together even if their team exceeds 560...it would amost be an incentive that keeps the league strong and teams coming back...because if a team member leaves...you might have to find a 160 average bowler to get your team back under 560. Of course, that could also lead to some real sandbagging issues if a team with a few 220 average bowlers...tank a season and get a 185 book...all get in the league...then start bowling in the 220s...and there's no way to get rid of them at that poing even though they as a team are at 660 instead of 560.


I may be wrong since I've only bowled in one league that had an average cap, and my regular leagues do only team points.

Since most leagues that I've seen with individual match points allow one team to change their lineup after the first team has entered theirs, I would think that in Rob's league the line up would change automatically if one player passes a teammate in average.

In leagues with a cap, the cap is only on entering averages. It is one of the downsides of that king of league that teams will often be forced to drop a bowler or two from one season to the next to stay under the cap.

[bowl1820]

Basically it's just a standard Match Point System. The only difference is they are using handicap on the team part.

In the Match Point system each player bowls against the player opposite them in the opponent’s lineup. The points are awarded on an individual and team basis.

Typically in this system a teams lineup is sorted by average, starting from the lowest average player to highest average player. Then the players bowl against each other respectively for each point in a game.

(Note: Lineup doesn't have too be sorted by average. If the league or tournament rules permit you to set the lineup another way. Also one of USBC's rules regarding Match point is "The team scheduled on the odd lane enters its lineup first." But This wouldn't really apply if your sorting by average.)

As the bowler's average changes through out the season, the line up would also.

As for the team cap, that's typically just for entering averages, that doesn't limit what your average throughout the season.

[Aslan]

As for the team cap, that's typically just for entering averages, that doesn't limit what your average throughout the season.
I'm just wondering what people think about having a hard cap where if the team exceeds the cap, they'd have to drop a player and pick another one up prior to the next season…OR…having a hard cap for entry but so long as the averages don't ever exceed say 100 pins more than the hard cap….and provided they don't change ANY team members…they could stay in the league with the elevated average.

[RobLV1]

The cap is for entering averages only. Part of the fun of picking a team is trying to find bowlers who will raise their averages to give them an advantage. The downside is that the better the bowlers on you team perform, the less chance there is that they will be together again next year. Our team entered at 864 and we are currently at 873. We came in 20th out of 32 teams for the first quarter, and won the second quarter which guarantees us a $1500 bonus at the end of the year.

[Aslan]

Whats the weekly cost per player?

[RobLV1]

Weekly cost is $25

[larry mc]

i rip the cover off it and still can make spares