Pin up, or down, does it really make a differance?

[MICHAEL]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMrVjK1otdM

You drillers thoughts

[Mike White]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMrVjK1otdM

You drillers thoughts

Both drillings create a low flare result.

Both balls had a circular black area approximately where the PAP would be located as if the ball had been drilled there, then plugged.

In my opinion the most telling part was that the balls were thrown with a low rev release, so once the ball saw friction it went into a forward roll rather than hook across the lane.

Couple that with playing right up the oil line, and both balls will appear the same.

[J Anderson]

Disclaimer: I am not a bowling ball driller.

1. I've never seen a layout that required a balance hole by the pin.
2. I've never seen the pin below the thumb.
3. It seems to me that a better test would have been a typical pin up layout vs a typical pin down with the pin just below the fingers.
4. While the camera angle is similar to the view of the ball that we see when bowling, if the camera view was more of an overhead shot it might be possible to see a sight variation in the ball paths.
5. It's well documented that the layout is not the most significant factor in ball motion.
6. Pin placement is only one aspect of ball layout.
7. The speaker in the video admits that if the balls were laid out differently with regard to the c.g. the result would have been different.

[bowl1820]

Thats from Phoenix Ball Balancing, their the ones that use the software based on the old Compubalance software.

Which basically lays out balls To take out all imbalance in a ball (making them all low flare). I assume they used it on those balls, if so they are not going to look different.

Heres a video of a Encounter they did it to, it rolls just like the above ones.


http://collegegraphs.com/Encounternar2.mp4

That black mark on the ball is a permanent pap marker, just a hole drilled and plugged a different color.

[Aslan]

Is Iceman STILL trying to disprove my video!??

Ice....it's been tested already! Drilling doesn't matter that much!!

Stop searching for videos and just make one of you and your twin deadly aims already!

P.S. I WILL slow motion your eventual video just in case you try to bump up or down the rev rate/speed...so don't try to get tricky!

P.S.S. Please have your ball driller VERIFY in the video that the 2 deadly aims are LEGALLY balanced. In my video and THIS video...balance holes were added to keep the balls legal. Thats a step many house bowlers forget...because nobody really checks anymore. I have a feeling Iceman's arsenal might fail a test or two.

[Mike White]

Is Iceman STILL trying to disprove my video!??

Ice....it's been tested already! Drilling doesn't matter that much!!

Stop searching for videos and just make one of you and your twin deadly aims already!

P.S. I WILL slow motion your eventual video just in case you try to bump up or down the rev rate/speed...so don't try to get tricky!

P.S.S. Please have your ball driller VERIFY in the video that the 2 deadly aims are LEGALLY balanced. In my video and THIS video...balance holes were added to keep the balls legal. Thats a step many house bowlers forget...because nobody really checks anymore. I have a feeling Iceman's arsenal might fail a test or two.

I have two Mixes that are drilled different, and I get about 6-7 boards difference in hook with them.

The one I use most often is drilled dead straight over the CG, while the other has the CG pushed well over to the right, then a balance hole to make it legal.

It hooked so much that I had to enlarge the balance hole to the point the ball no longer has positive side weight.

Since they are both urethane pancake balls, the shells are the same, surface the same, so why does one hook much more?

That big balance hole causes the ball to flare, so it effectively exits the oil sooner.

[Mike White]

P.S.S. Please have your ball driller VERIFY in the video that the 2 deadly aims are LEGALLY balanced. In my video and THIS video...balance holes were added to keep the balls legal. Thats a step many house bowlers forget...because nobody really checks anymore. I have a feeling Iceman's arsenal might fail a test or two.

When Iceboy first posted a picture of his original Deadly Aim, I mentioned that without a balance hole (which it didn't appear to have) the ball was likely to be out of USBC spec.

[Aslan]

When Iceboy first posted a picture of his original Deadly Aim, I mentioned that without a balance hole (which it didn't appear to have) the ball was likely to be out of USBC spec.

In fairness...I'd say somewhere around 15% of balls used in a standard house league are technically illegal. Probably 5% of those used in PBA events. No center wants to tick off a league bowler and tell them they can't use their favorite illegal ball.

[RobLV1]

Let's be realistic. The only place where your bowling balls may be checked for static legality is at the USBC Nationals. A few years ago the USBC did a series of Town Hall meetings around the country. I attended the one in Vegas. At that time, the USBC was still weighing every ball to be used at Nationals every day for a cost of over $100,000. per year. I asked why they were still doing that when their own ball motion study stated that static weight imbalances have less effect on ball reaction than the ambient temperature in the bowling center. The USBC rep kind of turn a few different shades of red and replied, "I guess they still do it because that's the way they've always done it." In an effort to justify not getting rid of static weight requirements all together, the USBC did another study which showed that a bowler, throwing a bowling ball with 8 ounces of side weight at 14 mph with a rev rate higher than Jason Belmonte's would see a significant difference in ball motion. They also stated that balls with too much static weight imbalance might fall off of the track in the ball return creating a headache for the bowling proprietors. These are the same bowling proprietors that the USBC shares a building and, most probably, a break room with. Please.

[channelsurfer]

You know everything on the internet is true..........I am a French model!!

Static weights mean nothing in balls today. Changing dual angle sums can create significant changes in ball motion...........those videos are garbage!!!

[Blacksox1]

For me, pin up and pin down does make a difference.

[Mike White]

Thats from Phoenix Ball Balancing, their the ones that use the software based on the old Compubalance software.

Which basically lays out balls To take out all imbalance in a ball (making them all low flare). I assume they used it on those balls, if so they are not going to look different.

Heres a video of a Encounter they did it to, it rolls just like the above ones.


http://collegegraphs.com/Encounternar2.mp4

That black mark on the ball is a permanent pap marker, just a hole drilled and plugged a different color.

Making them 0 imbalance isn't what makes them low flare.

Pin to Pap of 0", or 6 3/4" achieves the minimum amount of flare.

[Mike White]

You know everything on the internet is true..........I am a French model!!

Static weights mean nothing in balls today. Changing dual angle sums can create significant changes in ball motion...........those videos are garbage!!!

There are balls made today that have a pancake weight block.

If I take a 4 oz top weight ball, and drill the CG on my axis, then drill a big hole on the negative axis, I can create probably 7+ ounces of side weight.

I could kick that ball down the lane and have it hook a bunch.

Static weights doesn't mean as much on balls with a highly dynamic core, but not all balls fall into that category.

[channelsurfer]

There are balls made today that have a pancake weight block.

If I take a 4 oz top weight ball, and drill the CG on my axis, then drill a big hole on the negative axis, I can create probably 7+ ounces of side weight.

I could kick that ball down the lane and have it hook a bunch.

Static weights doesn't mean as much on balls with a highly dynamic core, but not all balls fall into that category.

Who throws a pancake weight block other than a spare ball? Statics have to be less than 1oz side, finger or thumb. Top or bottom weight has to be less than 3oz to be legal. Statics mean very little to ball reaction period. Moving the mass in a pancake weight block can actually alter differential and that has a greater effect on ball motion than statics.

[Mike White]

Who throws a pancake weight block other than a spare ball? Statics have to be less than 1oz side, finger or thumb. Top or bottom weight has to be less than 3oz to be legal. Statics mean very little to ball reaction period. Moving the mass in a pancake weight block can actually alter differential and that has a greater effect on ball motion than statics.

I throw a pancake weight block ball for strikes.

With the rev rate I can throw consistently, reactive resin balls give me a significant over reaction.


It is harder to learn to go from 600 rpm down to 300 rpm and repeat that consistently, than it is to learn to go from 150 rpm up to 300 rpm consistently.

So until I can unlearn how to rev the ball, I'm stuck with urethane balls, at high revs.


The point is some people think the USBC should do away with static limits, because they have such small effect on a modern cored ball.

If they did away with static limits, a ball with 7 ounces of side weight would be legal.

I would have responded directly to RobM but he takes all of my responses as a personal attack.

[fortheloveofbowling]

[QUOTE=channelsurfer;121410]Who throws a pancake weight block other than a spare ball? Statics have to be less than 1oz side, finger or thumb. Top or bottom weight has to be less than 3oz to be legal. Statics mean very little to ball reaction period. Moving the mass in a pancake weight block can actually alter differential and that has a greater effect on ball motion than statics.[/QUOTE

There are many sport patterns now that urethane works well on due to a smaller volume in the fronts or distance of pattern being shorter. There are several of the kegel patterns and wtba patterns fitting that senario.

[channelsurfer]

There are very few pancake weight block urethane balls available today. Even so statics do VERY LITTLE to overall ball reaction.

[channelsurfer]

http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads/17655-Aslan-s-Weekly-Chris-Barnes-Joe-Slowinski-Statistics-Nerd-Thread-Part-IV/page2


So Mike White are you the guy in the green shirt in the video on that page? Just guessing since that is the highest rev rate in the video. How did you figure your rev rate at 600 rpm's? 300 rpm's is probably closer to your rev rate. Why in the heck would you need a pancake weight block or urethane on 99% of the THS around?

[channelsurfer]

And if you are referring to RobLV1 as Rob M :confused:........He gets it and understands ball motion. As he said...... ambient temp and humidity has more effect on ball motion than static weights.

[Mike White]

http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads/17655-Aslan-s-Weekly-Chris-Barnes-Joe-Slowinski-Statistics-Nerd-Thread-Part-IV/page2


So Mike White are you the guy in the green shirt in the video on that page? Just guessing since that is the highest rev rate in the video. How did you figure your rev rate at 600 rpm's? 300 rpm's is probably closer to your rev rate. Why in the heck would you need a pancake weight block or urethane on 99% of the THS around?

This video was taken near April 1st, I had just reinjured my elbow on about Feb 20th, so I wasn't throwing revs that day.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU1qvfKC8_s

This is a more upto date video. Even in this video there was more oil, and less lane friction than I usually bowl on, but I'm still using urethane because resin balls would snap too sharp.

[Mike White]

And if you are referring to RobLV1 as Rob M :confused:........He gets it and understands ball motion. As he said...... ambient temp and humidity has more effect on ball motion than static weights.

Why :confused: ??? They are one in the same.

If he said that, and included ALL bowling balls in that comment, then he's just as wrong as you are.

It's not that static weights are weak, it just shows how strong of an effect the core has on a modern ball, and likewise, how strong the coverstock is compared to the core.

The coverstock (even on a Breeze) generates too much snap for me when I'm throwing revs.

Before you go on the record saying he understands ball motion, you really should read the full range of his thoughts on the topic.

Most of what Rob has to say, is something he's read from somewhere else.

If you dispute something, he won't defend what he said, just identify the source.

According to Rob, the moment of inertia, is the point were the ball begins to hook.

And the ball doesn't hook until the ball has revved up.

[RobLV1]

Of course I'm referring to reactive resin balls with dynamic cores because that's what 99% of bowlers throw. My question for you Mike is what determines what days you are going to act like a normal human being, and what days you are going to go out of your way to come after me? Is it really such a threat to you when someone comments that I know what I'm talking about?

[fortheloveofbowling]

This video was taken near April 1st, I had just reinjured my elbow on about Feb 20th, so I wasn't throwing revs that day.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU1qvfKC8_s

This is a more upto date video. Even in this video there was more oil, and less lane friction than I usually bowl on, but I'm still using urethane because resin balls would snap too sharp.

You have a nice looking game there mike.

[channelsurfer]

You are seriously mistaken if you think that is 600 rpm's!!!!


And by the way.....statics mean nothing and if you believe that static imbalance means anything YOU are wrong.


The :confused: was because I didn't know if that was who you meant since I usually don't post on here......Rob M didn't match the RobLV1 screen name :confused:


Anyway I love this board.....plenty of comic relief to keep you smiling :rolleyes: :D

[Mike White]

You are seriously mistaken if you think that is 600 rpm's!!!!


And by the way.....statics mean nothing and if you believe that static imbalance means anything YOU are wrong.


The :confused: was because I didn't know if that was who you meant since I usually don't post on here......Rob M didn't match the RobLV1 screen name :confused:


Anyway I love this board.....plenty of comic relief to keep you smiling :rolleyes: :D

I'm surprised you can see enough detail to have any opinion on the rev rate, other than based on the release, there are more revs.

I have a video (not online) that is at 480 fps. It was a day where the lanes were slicker than normal so I wasn't trying to rev up the ball significantly.

In that it takes 55 frames to complete a revolution.

Doing the math, that's 523 rpm, so achieving 600 is not out of the question for me.

[Mike White]

You have a nice looking game there mike.

To make it compatible with todays lanes, and equipment, I would need to tear it down and rebuild it almost from scratch.

I.e. I hate what they have done to the game while I was away.

[Mike White]

You know everything on the internet is true..........I am a French model!!

Static weights mean nothing in balls today. Changing dual angle sums can create significant changes in ball motion...........those videos are garbage!!!

Ok lets go with your theory on Static weight meaning nothing.

I have a Marvel S ball, and I want to drill it 45 x 3.5 x 50, for a dual angle sum of 95.

If I drill another similar Marvel S ball at 90 x 3.5 x 50, a sum of 140, in your opinion would the ball motion will be significantly different?

Let me warn you, you're about to find yourself in a bit of a mine field.

[Mike White]

And if you are referring to RobLV1 as Rob M :confused:........He gets it and understands ball motion. As he said...... ambient temp and humidity has more effect on ball motion than static weights.

Assuming the comments about temp and humidity come from the Ball Motion Study (http://www.bowl.com/uploadedFiles/Equip_and_Specs/Equip_and_Specs_Home/08ballmotionstudy.pdf), on page 13.

The graph indicates side weight is a larger factor than temp, and humidity.

How does he get it, if he can't even read it?

[channelsurfer]

Since you used a Marvel S that is a symmetrical ball no you would not see a significant difference unless the placement of a balance hole created it........in a asymmetrical you would see a huge difference.

Just to warn you I am not afraid of your "mine field"...... not your normal poster here.

[channelsurfer]

And just so we are clear about the balance hole.......statics DO NOT change the motion it is the size, depth and placement of the hole varying the amount of core removed

[channelsurfer]

And here are some guys on tour and their rev rates.....


Jason Belmonte 580

E.J. Tackett
514

A.J. Johnson
514

Tommy Jones
480

Chris Barnes
424

Steve Smith
424

Mike Fagan
424

Kyle King
424

Bill O'Neill
424

Sean Rash
424



You may possibly be 400 or so but NO where near 600.

[RobLV1]

Assuming the comments about temp and humidity come from the Ball Motion Study (http://www.bowl.com/uploadedFiles/Equip_and_Specs/Equip_and_Specs_Home/08ballmotionstudy.pdf), on page 13.

The graph indicates side weight is a larger factor than temp, and humidity.

How does he get it, if he can't even read it?

Once again, Mike, you are tripping over the trees and not seeing the forest. For those readers who are trying to actually learn something here rather than simply watching you flex your muscles, here are the details from the USBC Ball Motion Study:

Overall, there are eighteen variables listed that affect ball motion. Six of these variables earned 300 or more weighted points based on P-Value. The more points, the more the variable affects increasing the performance of a bowling ball. The six highest weighted variables are: SR-Ra (840), On-Lane COF (580), SR-RS (515), Dry Lane COF (405), Oil Absorption (360), and RG (320). There are three variables rated between 200 and 300 weighted points: Total Differential (280), Spin Time (275), and Diameter (275). Finally, there are six factors that earned less than 200 weighted points: Side Weight (195), Int. Differential (160), Oil @ 32' (155) Room Humidity (125), Oil @ 8' (115), Top Weight (105), Room Temperature (100), Thumb Weight (90), and Lane Temperature (60).

So, yes, Mike Side Weight is more important than Room Humidity and Room Temperature, however Top Weight is less important than Room Humidity, and Thumb Weight is less important than everything except the actual temperature of the lane. If, however, you look at those top six variables based on weighted points, they account for over 60% of ball reaction. If you add in the next three variables, the total of the nine account for over 77% of ball reaction. If you take the total of the three static weights (Side Weight, Top Weight, and Thumb Weight), they account for less than 8% of ball reaction.

My point in all of this is to try to educate bowlers as to the non-importance of static weights in relation to the things that count, ie., the surface material and finish, and the core characteristics. Is it really worth it to you to muddy up the waters for all of those bowlers who want to learn, just to be right?

[Mike White]

And here are some guys on tour and their rev rates.....


Jason Belmonte 580

E.J. Tackett
514

A.J. Johnson
514

Tommy Jones
480

Chris Barnes
424

Steve Smith
424

Mike Fagan
424

Kyle King
424

Bill O'Neill
424

Sean Rash
424



You may possibly be 400 or so but NO where near 600.

This is what you call proof?

You think maybe the people listed have limited their rev rate to match the ball speed they can achieve to maximize the effectiveness of the equipment they use.

I learned to throw high revs before reactive resin, and since I didn't bowl between 1992 and 2012, I haven't adapted to the needs of a resin ball yet. Which is why I throw urethane.

[Mike White]

Since you used a Marvel S that is a symmetrical ball no you would not see a significant difference unless the placement of a balance hole created it........in a asymmetrical you would see a huge difference.

Just to warn you I am not afraid of your "mine field"...... not your normal poster here.

You stated earlier that the Dual Angle Sum would change the reaction, and now you say it won't, except for a select class of ball. (asymmetrical)

Thats valid,

I'm saying if you do away with static weight limits, static weights can have a significant effect on ball reaction on all classes of ball.

[Mike White]

Once again, Mike, you are tripping over the trees and not seeing the forest. For those readers who are trying to actually learn something here rather than simply watching you flex your muscles, here are the details from the USBC Ball Motion Study:

So, yes, Mike Side Weight is more important than Room Humidity and Room Temperature,

My point in all of this is to try to educate bowlers as to the non-importance of static weights in relation to the things that count, ie., the surface material and finish, and the core characteristics. Is it really worth it to you to muddy up the waters for all of those bowlers who want to learn, just to be right?

When you post invalid information, that is where the mud comes from.

Static weights don't "count" because they have limits on them.

Bowling balls now react so much more, because the USBC has abdicated it's role as protector of the sports integrity.

You want the USBC to remove static limits as well, but you've seen what can happen when those limits are removed.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ahME4NCEQk

Put that weight on the other side of the ball, and it's a hook monster even if Aslan throws it.

[channelsurfer]

LOL!!!! Your post get more ridiculous every time.....please keep going this is getting really good :D

I learned to "throw revs" as you would say way before resin also......I don't have to throw urethane today.....why is that?

Proof..... it's obvious that your rev rate is not even close to the bowlers on that list. NO POSSIBLE WAY you are even close to 500rpm's much less 600!! You may get that if you are measuring at the pins because even Walter Ray has that much rev rate at the pins. Please do a high quality video and post it to prove me wrong. You may fool the majority of people here but I know better. My rev rate is around 400 and you don't have as much rev rate as I do. They do vary speed and rev rate to match conditions (not equipment). Have you seen anyone with a 500+ rev rate in person like EJ or Robert Smith since you are in CA?

[channelsurfer]

And yes dual angle sums will even have an effect on syms. Changing drill angles will force you to either use balance holes or have the option to not use them so yes sums matter. VAL angle is the bigger factor with syms which will change the shape of the ball down lane (which in your example VAL angles were the same). The PSA is around the thumb on a sym unless you use a balance hole then it can be slightly manipulated.

[channelsurfer]

Here is one of those old videos......notice there was no change in ball motion from 2-1/8 positive side weight to 5/8 negative side weight.......because statics do not change ball reaction enough for you to see it or it to make any difference.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8vX_yoM0Q4

[bowl1820]

For those interested, the video of the ball fading to the right is from the USBC Static Weight study.
Which you can read here and make your own mind up about just what it says:

http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/2011StaticWeightsStudy.pdf

[fortheloveofbowling]

Here is one of those old videos......notice there was no change in ball motion from 2-1/8 positive side weight to 5/8 negative side weight.......because statics do not change ball reaction enough for you to see it or it to make any difference.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8vX_yoM0Q4


What mike has been talking about is older pancake weight blocks. When the pin and cg were basically in the same spot. Back then and i'm sure mike remembers drilling balls with axis leverage layouts. We would shift the label over to your postive axis point and drill a big hole right through it to get it back to legal and that was a big help with those balls. Static weights on older balls with no weight block to speak of does matter. The usbc study on cg shift on symmetrical balls and the little difference it creates is not in dispute. The cg location as we know doesn't really matter on asymmetrical balls either, it is the mass bias that is the focal point on those balls in addition to the pin location on both types.

[Mike White]

LOL!!!! Your post get more ridiculous every time.....please keep going this is getting really good :D

I learned to "throw revs" as you would say way before resin also......I don't have to throw urethane today.....why is that?



Since I've never seen you bowl, I wouldn't know.

The possibilities are, you never learned to throw as many revs as I do. Very few did.

Also if you were bowling during the years where the bowling balls changed, and oil patterns changed, you've adapted to a weaker release to compensate for the stronger balls.



Proof..... it's obvious that your rev rate is not even close to the bowlers on that list. NO POSSIBLE WAY you are even close to 500rpm's much less 600!! You may get that if you are measuring at the pins because even Walter Ray has that much rev rate at the pins. Please do a high quality video and post it to prove me wrong. You may fool the majority of people here but I know better. My rev rate is around 400 and you don't have as much rev rate as I do. They do vary speed and rev rate to match conditions (not equipment). Have you seen anyone with a 500+ rev rate in person like EJ or Robert Smith since you are in CA?

You can say things are obvious, but that is just you talking, that's not proof.

I have video of the ball just crossing the foul line, and completing a revolution in 57/480 of a second.

As is the nature of cameras, when the frame rate goes up, the lighting need increase as well.

Since bowling alleys are usually not lit with studio lights, the video is a bit grainy, but seeing the ability to identify a complete revolution is fairly easy.

You don't see me in the video, so before you claim someone else is throwing the ball, it has the tell tale bounce at the foul line.

Another feature I'm working to get rid of.

[Doghouse Reilly]

Well let's see the video.

What would the the Iceman say post "THE TRUTH!"

or if you can't post it shoot another, put some tracer tape on a ball and cranker up! don't get fancy with the high speed camera that needs a lot of light. Use ordinary one like evryone else uses.


ICE GOD WE NEED YOU!! Command Mike to post the TRUTH!.

[Mike White]

Well let's see the video.

What would the the Iceman say post "THE TRUTH!"

or if you can't post it shoot another, put some tracer tape on a ball and cranker up! don't get fancy with the high speed camera that needs a lot of light. Use ordinary one like evryone else uses.


ICE GOD WE NEED YOU!! Command Mike to post the TRUTH!.

Patience, I was getting it ready.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EAeu7Gv6TQ

There was 1.8 seconds between the two pauses, which represent one revolution.

1.8 seconds at 30 fps playback = 54 frames

Converting that to rpms is 480 * 60 / 54 = 533 rpms

[Aslan]

MWhite DOES have a significant rev rate. I'm not sure I'd say it's 500rpm, but I'd bet it's in the low 400s. I'd need to see the film at standard speed or know the % slow motion to verify.

[Mike White]

MWhite DOES have a significant rev rate. I'm not sure I'd say it's 500rpm, but I'd bet it's in the low 400s. I'd need to see the film at standard speed or know the % slow motion to verify.

It was recorded at 480 fps.

It plays back at 30 fps.

The only way to see "standard speed" is to somehow speed it up 16x.

You like to pull numbers out of your stinky place, and you're doing it yet again.

The only time we've bowled together and my arm was healthy was in the sport league.

There was too much oil on the lanes for me to throw urethane, but the resin ball would hook too sharp when I put revs on it.
So I have to resort to a weak release with resin on a sport condition.

Maybe if we have a 50 foot pattern I can really let it rip.

[channelsurfer]

Last post for me but this has been really good!!! Your arrogance continues to bring out your ignorance!!!

All I am going to say is you took 20 years off.........you still have a lot to learn. You are nowhere near 500 rpm's give it up......and if you post another rev rate video make sure it's not floor dumped so bad you have to try to calculate rev rate in the air. Statics will not change ball motion as the video I posted proved that. Until then hit the gym and work on that wrist so you can try to reach your 500-600 rpm goal....... What may be more beneficial to you grasshoppa, is to learn to get rid of the George Pappas stand up and reach to the ceiling hit and learn to throw the ball in an effective way today that you could use reactive effectively with a 500rpm rev rate........ if you could ever get 500 rpm's. You do not have to "tear your game down and rebuild it" as you stated earlier to do it.

P.S. Stop giving Rob a hard time. Seems to me the few post I have checked out that you always are calling him out......and from what I have seen he is more correct than you in those post!! Maybe if you would stop trying to be the all knowing, king of the bowling boards post whore and try to learn about the modern game before you call people out you wouldn't be such a bad guy.

[channelsurfer]

fortheloveofbowling- yep drilling block weight, axis leverage and other exotic drillings for their time did have a positive effect on ball reaction. The key to what you said was legal statics......what wasn't known then that is known now is the density of the pancake and position of it relative to your pap was the reason for the change in reactions and not as much the statics. What was happening was you were taking a ball with no differential and creating it with the drilling and that differential ratio is what enhanced the ball motion.

[Mike White]

Last post for me but this has been really good!!! Your arrogance continues to bring out your ignorance!!!

All I am going to say is you took 20 years off.........you still have a lot to learn. You are nowhere near 500 rpm's give it up......and if you post another rev rate video make sure it's not floor dumped so bad you have to try to calculate rev rate in the air. Statics will not change ball motion as the video I posted proved that. Until then hit the gym and work on that wrist so you can try to reach your 500-600 rpm goal....... What may be more beneficial to you grasshoppa, is to learn to get rid of the George Pappas stand up and reach to the ceiling hit and learn to throw the ball in an effective way today that you could use reactive effectively with a 500rpm rev rate........ if you could ever get 500 rpm's. You do not have to "tear your game down and rebuild it" as you stated earlier to do it.

P.S. Stop giving Rob a hard time. Seems to me the few post I have checked out that you always are calling him out......and from what I have seen he is more correct than you in those post!! Maybe if you would stop trying to be the all knowing, king of the bowling boards post whore and try to learn about the modern game before you call people out you wouldn't be such a bad guy.

You say I can't hit 500 revs, and I show you evidence.

Now you still claim I can't hit 500.

If there is something in the evidence you dispute say it.

Bad math? Show it

Seems you have some crow to eat, but you would rather shift the topic to the ball bouncing.

I already said the ball bounces, but even with that "problem" I still hit 533 rpm.

[Doghouse Reilly]

Patience, I was getting it ready.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EAeu7Gv6TQ

There was 1.8 seconds between the two pauses, which represent one revolution.

1.8 seconds at 30 fps playback = 54 frames

Converting that to rpms is 480 * 60 / 54 = 533 rpms


HOLYSMOKES invoking the "ICE GOD" worked! ALL PRAISE ICEMAN!



The video is clear enough, the only trouble is the video is so manipulated a accurate frame and rev rate can't be figured.

It was shot at 480 fps, done in slow motion, converted to 30 fps. Then is using the 54 frame count from the 30 fps video in a formula based on the 480 fps.


OH GREAT ICEGOD Demand another video done at normal speed! and posted at the frame rate it was shot. so a proper rev rate can be done!!

We offer many pins to your heavenly games!!!

[Mike White]

HOLYSMOKES invoking the "ICE GOD" worked! ALL PRAISE ICEMAN!



The video is clear enough, the only trouble is the video is so manipulated a accurate frame and rev rate can't be figured.

It was shot at 480 fps, done in slow motion, converted to 30 fps. Then is using the 54 frame count from the 30 fps video in a formula based on the 480 fps.


OH GREAT ICEGOD Demand another video done at normal speed! and posted at the frame rate it was shot. so a proper rev rate can be done!!

We offer many pins to your heavenly games!!!




It's 480 fps video. The problem is getting it to play back at 480 fps is something each viewer would need to do.

Since most can't, the assumption is it will be viewed at 30 fps.

The only "manipulation" I did was to add a pause when the thumb hole reached half way up the side of the ball, and another pause when it reached that position again.

At 30 fps, the software said the time between the pauses was 1.8 seconds, which calculates to 54 frames.

Knowing that it was recorded at 480 fps, the time for one revolution was 54/480 of a second.

If I record at 30 fps, one rev will not have completed after 3 frames, but will have gone beyond a rev after 4 frames.

So by recording at 480, you get a more accurate result.

[bowl1820]

It's 480 fps video. The problem is getting it to play back at 480 fps is something each viewer would need to do.

Since most can't, the assumption is it will be viewed at 30 fps.

The only "manipulation" I did was to add a pause when the thumb hole reached half way up the side of the ball, and another pause when it reached that position again.

At 30 fps, the software said the time between the pauses was 1.8 seconds, which calculates to 54 frames.

Knowing that it was recorded at 480 fps, the time for one revolution was 54/480 of a second.

I think Dog is close, (not that you manipulated it intentionally).

Your right that the 1.8 sec in the video you posted is 54 frames (I counted them), but it's 54 frames in a 30FPS video which is not the same as 54/480.

(Note: a guy over on ballreviews had done the same thing quite a while back. And said he found it did throw off the accuracy of the rev rate. So it does sound like it is possible.) I'm not saying it going to be off a lot.


If I record at 30 fps, one rev will not have completed after 3 frames, but will have gone beyond a rev after 4 frames.

If you used a video shot at 30FPS it doesn't matter if one rev will not have completed after 3 frames, because using the usual Calculating Rev Rate formula is based on 10 frames.

Using the info you just gave, that you have a little more than 1 rev in 4 frames (in a video shot @30FPS).

We'll say you got 2.5 to 2.75 rev's in 10 frames, that would give you 450 to 495 revs. Which is still quite respectable! So props to you there.

Now if you got 3 full revs in 10 frames, you'd have your 533 then.

Shoot give it a shot, make another video. Just shoot it at 30FPS, put a Tracer tape on it and see what you get. Doesn't hurt to have a updated video of your release. (OH and try not to drill a hole in the lane with that bounce)

[bowl1820]

For those interested heres a Video of a 550 RPM release for comparisons.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70V3oPLqHlA
This is a release of a 550 RPM bowler that uses his thumb. Normal speed video is followed by high speed footage.

[Aslan]

I shoot all my videos at normal speed. I may slow them down 50% or 25%…but at normal speed I can at least roughly calculate the time it takes for the ball to travel 60ft. So if I know it's traveling at a certain speed over a given time…I can then see how many times it "revolved" and can calculate the rpms. If I slow the video down 50%, I have to adjust the final number x2 (or x4 if I slow it to 25%).

In you video…I know it traveled 60ft. I know it revolved 20 times (which is substantial). What I don't have is an unadulterated TIME…so I can't calculate a true speed nor rev rate. IF we use a speed from previous footage I have of you…it's about 16.4mph. Using THAT speed, a ball that revolves 20 times before hitting the pins will have a rev rate of just shy of 480rpms.

That is what I would calculate your rev rate, at least what it was at the AVI Challenge in Vegas.

[Mike White]

I think Dog is close, (not that you manipulated it intentionally).

Your right that the 1.8 sec in the video you posted is 54 frames (I counted them), but it's 54 frames in a 30FPS video which is not the same as 54/480.



When recording at 480 fps each frame represents 1/480 seconds of real time.

54 frames represents 54/480th of a second.

The fact that it is being played back at 30 fps doesn't change the amount of real time that transpired during those 54 frames.

When played back at 30 fps, it took 1.8 seconds to complete those 54 frames, had it played back at 60 fps, it would have taken 0.9 seconds to complete the playback.

None of that effects the recording.

I would show you a gap of 160 frames, the equivalent to your 10 frames at 30 fps, but by the time it reaches 160 frames, the ball is fuzzy and the thumb hole can't be clearly determined.

The 10 frame at 30 fps is one method, not the only method, Counting 54 frames for 1 revolution is just as accurate, if not more so.

54/480 = 0.1125

60 / 0.1125 = 533.33333




FC Rev Rate RC Rev Rate
48 600.00 4 720.000
49 587.76 3 7/8 697.500
50 576.00 3 3/4 675.000
51 564.71 3 5/8 652.500
52 553.85 3 1/2 630.000
53 543.40 3 3/8 607.500
54 533.33 3 1/4 585.000
55 523.64 3 1/8 562.500
56 514.29 3 540.000
57 505.26 2 7/8 517.500
58 496.55 2 3/4 495.000
59 488.14 2 5/8 472.500


Counting frames for one revolution at 480 fps is twice as accurate as counting revs in 10 frames at 30 fps assuming you count revs in 45 degree increments.

[Mike White]

I shoot all my videos at normal speed. I may slow them down 50% or 25%…but at normal speed I can at least roughly calculate the time it takes for the ball to travel 60ft. So if I know it's traveling at a certain speed over a given time…I can then see how many times it "revolved" and can calculate the rpms. If I slow the video down 50%, I have to adjust the final number x2 (or x4 if I slow it to 25%).

In you video…I know it traveled 60ft. I know it revolved 20 times (which is substantial). What I don't have is an unadulterated TIME…so I can't calculate a true speed nor rev rate. IF we use a speed from previous footage I have of you…it's about 16.4mph. Using THAT speed, a ball that revolves 20 times before hitting the pins will have a rev rate of just shy of 480rpms.

That is what I would calculate your rev rate, at least what it was at the AVI Challenge in Vegas.

Using the full lane is usually not a good idea, because for most people, lane friction will slow the ball down, and increase the later rev rate.

What is important is the rev rate as it leave the hand (i.e. the bowlers rev rate) not the net effect of bowler, lane friction, and ball friction.

I put that shot into iMovie again, and made a clip from the moment the ball hit the lang, until the first frame the head pin moved.

iMovie says the duration is 38.1 seconds when played back at 30 fps.

38.1 / 16 = 2.38125 seconds = 17.18 mph

20 revs over 2.38125 seconds would average 503 rpms

[fortheloveofbowling]

I have a question on determining rev rate. If you axis tilt is larger meaning track is lower, then the ball will be able to rotate more correct? Then when determining your rev rate does that factor in?

[RobLV1]

I have a question on determining rev rate. If you axis tilt is larger meaning track is lower, then the ball will be able to rotate more correct? Then when determining your rev rate does that factor in?

Great point! I'm really not sure when and if the axis tilt is factored in, but it certainly should be. You can drop the ball with your hand on top and throw it like a top to achieve a high rev rate. The question is, does rev rate alone knock down pins? I don't think so. The ball also needs to roll before it hits the pins. If it doesn't, it will carry light hits, but leave corner pins on solid pocket hits all day. In the end, it's how many pins you can knock down and who you can beat, and who can beat you.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Another thing about rev rate as well is the ball you are throwing. We all have different types of balls, some that rev up earlier and some that have more of a mid lane or even later. If you are counting the revolutions a ball makes as it goes down the lane this can vary significantly depending on the ball and drilling. Rev rate is obviously helpful a lot of times but it as rob said it is about knocking down the pins in the end.

[Mike White]

Great point! I'm really not sure when and if the axis tilt is factored in, but it certainly should be. You can drop the ball with your hand on top and throw it like a top to achieve a high rev rate. The question is, does rev rate alone knock down pins? I don't think so. The ball also needs to roll before it hits the pins. If it doesn't, it will carry light hits, but leave corner pins on solid pocket hits all day. In the end, it's how many pins you can knock down and who you can beat, and who can beat you.

You have the info about a ball not quite rolling backwards.

If the ball has achieved angle of entry, but has not fully gone into the roll phase, light pocket carry is crap.

Flush pocket carry is good.

Carrying the 1-2-4-7 out of a full rack is all about location.

If you hit the head pin in the right place (flush pocket), the ball can be thrown dead and carry those 4.

You do need the proper angle of entry to go from that location to the next important location which is where the 3 is driven directly towards the 10 pin.

You can't throw the ball dead and go from the first location (driving the 1 towards the 7) to the second location (3 -> 10) because the ball will deflect to the right too far.

If you have the ball hit light (breaking the direct 1-2-4-7 chain) you're relying on luck to carry those 4.

In the 14-15-16 # video recently posted, you see the 15 # ball hits light enough that the 1-2-4-7 chain is broken.

The 4 pin is not driven into the 7 like it is for the 14, and 16 # ball.

[Mike White]

I have a question on determining rev rate. If you axis tilt is larger meaning track is lower, then the ball will be able to rotate more correct? Then when determining your rev rate does that factor in?

The tilt doesn't matter, other than how effective those revs might be.

With low tilt, the force you apply on the ball is in an up direction, where as in a high tilt, the force is more in a forward motion.

You have more leverage lifting up, than pushing forward.

In the modern ball, you can still lift up, but you need to control the axis of rotation otherwise the ball will jump left when exiting the oil.

With a lower rev release, when the ball exits the oil, the axis of rotation will turn forward and roll. While the rotation is turning, the ball is hooking, once the rotation is in line with the balls path, there are no more forces to change the balls path so it enters the roll phase.

With my release (about 45 axis rotation) the ball doesn't turn forward much, the ball maintains most of that axis rotation, and overachieves the angle of entry.

The high rev rate also reduces the "push" as the ball exits the oil, so you get the worst of both worlds, ball hooks too sharp, and too early.

I use urethane to achieve a less efficient reaction between the ball and the lane, resulting in a lower angle of entry (still more than 6 degrees), and more "push" as the ball exits the oil.


A high tilt ball will result in higher rev rate in the back ends due to the interaction between the lane and the ball.

The smaller the track (due to tilt) the faster the ball needs to rev for it to achieve the roll phase.

That extra rev won't be in the ball just after release.

The rev rate off the hand is a function of the force your fingers apply to the ball, and the RG value of your PAP.

[Mike White]

Great point! I'm really not sure when and if the axis tilt is factored in, but it certainly should be. You can drop the ball with your hand on top and throw it like a top to achieve a high rev rate.

Try doing it while maintaining a reasonable ball speed.

It ain't easy.

[mike_thomas93]

That brings me up a question to ask: how much rev rate is too much? How much is enough?

[RobLV1]

The important thing is not how many revs, but the relationship between the rev rate and the ball speed. A low rev player with a lot of ball speed is in about the same amount of trouble as a high rev player without much ball speed. Balance between speed and rev rate is the key.

[J Anderson]

That brings me up a question to ask: how much rev rate is too much? How much is enough?

It really depends on the rest of your game. If you throw real slow, 300 rpm might be too much.

Unless you're planning on challenging Belmo, the best plan for your game is to develop a comfortable release that you can repeat in your sleep. That way you won't have any unpleasant surprises in how the ball react due to having more or less revs than normal.

And don't worry, there are plenty of other reasons for unpleasant surprises on the lanes;)

[mike_thomas93]

Thanks John. And believe me I do by have any plans on two handing it like belmo. :p I know everyone is different and it's not all about having the most power. It's about knocking down the pins. Striking and sparing no matter how much or little rev rate is being applied.

[got_a_300]

IMHO rev rate really isn't what wins games it is how
many pins you knock down and what your final score
comes out to be.

Lets take a stroker with a rev rate of lets say 250 RPM's
and a cranker with a rev rate of say 650 RPM's it is going
to be who knocks down the most pins that is going to win
the game.

Yes don't get me wrong a 650 rev rate is mighty impressive
and when you're on your hard to beat I know I use to have
around a 600-650 rev rate back in the day and I could hang
with the best of them.

Now days I'm about 250-350 RPM's less than back then and
I don't carry as good as I did then either but my back, wrist
and arm/shoulder are for the better because of it.

[mike_thomas93]

Completely in agreement with that.