What adjustment do you make for a 7 or 10 pin leave?

[Hammer]

We all have had times where we throw our first ball of the frame we are bowling in and depending on if you are left or right handed you leave a 7 or 10 pin spare you have to pick up. If you are having one of those nights sometimes you can have a few of these in one game. If you are having this problem what kind of adjustment do you make to get rid of it? Do you move a whole board or a half board left or right to stop leaving the 7 or 10 pin or do you make a different adjustment? It seems like this happens because the ball came into the pocket at too small of an angle or hitting too light. So if you are left handed going after the 7 pin maybe a half board move to the left would put an end to this problem. I guess it would depend on what kind of ball you are using. Maybe instead of a approach adjustment a ball change would be the better choice. What is your strategy to solve this problem?

[mc_runner]

If it's a ringing ten I don't do anything the first time. For a flat 10 I usually make forward/back adjustments the next time on the lane first before any type of lateral moves, same if I leave 2 ringing 10s in a row on a lane. Of course, it's all dependent on if you can repeat the same shot as well as (especially in a 5 man league) recognizing how the oil distribution will change, even from shot to shot - you have 10 people going before your next time up on that same lane.

[ackwdw123]

[[ Right Hand Bowler ]] If I come up light twice I take a half step backward to get more lane, and put the ball down closer to the foul line. If I come up to high I take a half step forward to get the ball quicker to the pocket. As for making the 10 pin, I always place my left foot on the first dot to the left of the center. I set the ball down as close to the foul line as I can, place thumb on top of the ball and throw it over the 3rd dot at the foul line. I make an imaginary track from 3rd dot to the 10 pin and release. I use the foul line to spot release location and use the imaginary line technique to follow the path for both first shot and spare shot. Let me know if any of this helps you, or if you are currently using a similar technique.

[Aslan]

As a right handed bowler I don't make an adjustment for a 7-pin leave unless I can tell that the ball hit weak or went too far through the nose.

For 10-pins I generally move my target/eyes closer to me. I don't change where I start my approach, that stays constant. But I start by focusing on a target at about 15ft (arrows) and if I leave a 10-pin I will move that target closer to me. I will generally only move it as close as the dots…and then make a lateral move with my feet. If it's a more pronounced miss that leaves the 10-pin, I may make a 1-board lateral move to the right rather than move my target/eyes closer…but generally just moving the target closer works okay.

[Hobbit]

Basically what mc_runner said, sound advice!!!
Bottom line for me, is to ask u Aslan u if u make 90%+ of single pin corner spares?? With only a single pin leave, find a system that works for u, and practise it, over and over...If u line up in same spot from strike ball to 7 pin spare, and it works, great, just be careful if u bowl on harder shots using the same line..

[RobLV1]

I think that the first thing that you need to do is to learn to recognize the difference between a flat ten and a ringing ten (seven pin for lefties). A flat ten is when the six pin lays down in the right gutter and plays dead. A ringing ten is when the six pin flies around the ten pin, but doesn't knock it over. Once you learn to see the difference, you can make the proper adjustment. I teach my students to move left into the oil when they leave weak tens, and a slight move right (no more than a single board with their feet) when they leave ringing tens. I discourage them from making forward/back adjustments as it has the potential to mess with timing that can cause more problems than it cures.

[Mark O]

I think that the first thing that you need to do is to learn to recognize the difference between a flat ten and a ringing ten (seven pin for lefties). A flat ten is when the six pin lays down in the right gutter and plays dead. A ringing ten is when the six pin flies around the ten pin, but doesn't knock it over. Once you learn to see the difference, you can make the proper adjustment. I teach my students to move left into the oil when they leave weak tens, and a slight move right (no more than a single board with their feet) when they leave ringing tens. I discourage them from making forward/back adjustments as it has the potential to mess with timing that can cause more problems than it cures.

I think Rob hit it pretty much on the head here, I feel lateral moves are far more effective than moving forward or back on the approach due to creating possible timing issues and most of the time a board in either direction depending on the leave is enough to make a difference. I find that too many people (including myself sometimes) feel that every ball that hits the pocket should strike and they get upset when a pin is standing instead of trying to figure out why it was left. If you watch the ball roll through the pins and off the back of the deck it will tell you most all you need to know as to why a pin was left.

I say most all though because a situation left me puzzled last week during league and I wanted to know if anyone has faced this or may have an adjustment that can be made when you are leaving a ringing 7 pin as a right-hander. In game 3 I went x x 9/ x x 9/ x x 9/ 9/9 with 5 7 pin leaves where the ball left the pin deck right between the 8 and the 9 but the 4 pin wrapped around the neck of the 7 each time. 3 of the strikes also saw the 7 pin fall late after the 4 pin kicked it out off the wall so clearly something wasn't right but for the life of me I couldn't figure out what. My only thought was that I was coming in a pinch too high but I migrated further left into the oil each frame and each frame it was the same result. Any thoughts?

[vdubtx]

Mark O, what was your ball speed on those 7 pin shots. Typically when I leave a 7 it is due to a bit faster speed which for me equals a bit straighter as well.

[RobLV1]

Leaving a bunch of stone sevens for a right-hander usually indicates one of two things: if it's on one lane, it's probably a bad rack, or, if it's on both lanes, indicates the need for a ball change to something that rolls just a little bit sooner.

[swingset]

I am not so incredibly consistent that moving for a 10 pin leave has much of an effect to cure that problem - unless I'm leaving 4-5 a game, I continue to hold my position. If I'm leaving them a lot, that indicates I'm coming into the pocket consistently at the wrong angle or hitting it it in the wrong spot. Then, and only then, will I move. Left for weak 10's, right a hair for ringers.

7 pins indicate I might not be getting into the roll correctly, but that's a rarity for me I usually see that happening before it becomes an issue. I don't leave them often, in fact it's very rare.

[Mark O]

Leaving a bunch of stone sevens for a right-hander usually indicates one of two things: if it's on one lane, it's probably a bad rack, or, if it's on both lanes, indicates the need for a ball change to something that rolls just a little bit sooner.


Mark O, what was your ball speed on those 7 pin shots. Typically when I leave a 7 it is due to a bit faster speed which for me equals a bit straighter as well.

Thank you both for the input, thinking about it now it was most likely a combination of both that did me in. I was using a Track 400A which has an RG of 2.60 because the pair was pretty torched by game 3 and I needed some length, guess it was going too long! And I also throw the ball around 15 mph but when I get amped up my feet usually get moving a bit and sometimes I top out at 17-18 mph. Putting it all together, I most likely got a little fast with the shots that left the 7 pin and with that ball it never had a chance to fully get into a roll. I'll keep it in mind for next time, good tips!

[Mike White]

I think Rob hit it pretty much on the head here, I feel lateral moves are far more effective than moving forward or back on the approach due to creating possible timing issues and most of the time a board in either direction depending on the leave is enough to make a difference. I find that too many people (including myself sometimes) feel that every ball that hits the pocket should strike and they get upset when a pin is standing instead of trying to figure out why it was left. If you watch the ball roll through the pins and off the back of the deck it will tell you most all you need to know as to why a pin was left.

I say most all though because a situation left me puzzled last week during league and I wanted to know if anyone has faced this or may have an adjustment that can be made when you are leaving a ringing 7 pin as a right-hander. In game 3 I went x x 9/ x x 9/ x x 9/ 9/9 with 5 7 pin leaves where the ball left the pin deck right between the 8 and the 9 but the 4 pin wrapped around the neck of the 7 each time. 3 of the strikes also saw the 7 pin fall late after the 4 pin kicked it out off the wall so clearly something wasn't right but for the life of me I couldn't figure out what. My only thought was that I was coming in a pinch too high but I migrated further left into the oil each frame and each frame it was the same result. Any thoughts?

4 pin wrapped around the neck of the 7 pin? I have some doubts on that. If a 4 pin has enough energy transferred into it to "wrap" the 7, the angle isn't enough to miss the 7 pin.

I'd be willing to put money on it, that it was the 2 pin wrapping around the 7, with the 4 pin falling straight back.

The chain reaction you're looking for is 1 pin -> 2 pin -> 4 pin -> 7 pin.

If you are slightly high on the head pin, the 1 pin is driven fairly strongly into the 2 pin.
Most of the energy in the 1 pin, is transferred to the 2 pin, but the direction is not quite directly towards the 4 pin.
The 2 pin will glance off the front of the 4 pin, and then go between the wall, and the 7 pin.

It's very rare (if not impossible) for the 2 pin to transfer a significant amount of energy into the 4 pin (enough for it to wrap) and have it not be in line with the 7 pin.

If you were to hit slightly higher, you may leave the 4-7 (known as the fast 8) where the 2 pin doesn't glance off the 4 pin.

And slightly higher than that, you leave just the 4 pin because the 2 pin will bounce off the wall enough to hit the 7 pin.


On the 10 pin side (for right handers). If you see the 10 pin leave the deck traveling to the left, even though you strike, you shouldn't feel comfortable with the situation.

If you throw the ball slightly worse, the 6 pin doesn't bounce off the wall enough to hit the 10 pin,
If you throw the ball slightly better, the 6 pin bounces off the wall, but at the wrong angle, and goes around the 10 pin.

Bottom line, carrying the 4 or 7 pin is about the location where you hit the head pin.
Carrying the 10 pin is about deflection assuming you've hit the right location to carry the 4 and 7.

Yes you can hit light pocket and hope things work out, but when you hit the right location and the right amount of drive on the ball, 10 in the pit is a given.

[fortheloveofbowling]

I think that the first thing that you need to do is to learn to recognize the difference between a flat ten and a ringing ten (seven pin for lefties). A flat ten is when the six pin lays down in the right gutter and plays dead. A ringing ten is when the six pin flies around the ten pin, but doesn't knock it over. Once you learn to see the difference, you can make the proper adjustment. I teach my students to move left into the oil when they leave weak tens, and a slight move right (no more than a single board with their feet) when they leave ringing tens. I discourage them from making forward/back adjustments as it has the potential to mess with timing that can cause more problems than it cures.

Just to preface the following, i'm not trying to dispute your knowledge of bowling. Just curious if you may have written your movements backwards? If i leave a weak ten because as is usually the case the ball failed to get into a roll based on lack of down lane friction, why would i increase that lack of friction by moving deeper in the oil? As far as a ring ten, usually the case is to much down lane angle so if i moved right i'm increasing angle and really risking going through the nose the next shot. If in fact you worded that correctly i would be interested in the thinking on those moves. The only thing i can think of is moving right you are trying to burn the ball up to diminish the down lane reaction and moving left basically trying to jam it in to the pocket? Maybe you are talking about changing your targeting as well? Moving left and moving your target right and moving right and your target left? When trying to tell someone about adjusting you have to expand on all things involved. Again, not trying to dispute your teachings just curious because unless there is another change that goes along with that theory i quite frankly am ignorant to those adjustments.

[Mark O]

I'd be willing to put money on it, that it was the 2 pin wrapping around the 7, with the 4 pin falling straight back.

The chain reaction you're looking for is 1 pin -> 2 pin -> 4 pin -> 7 pin.

If you are slightly high on the head pin, the 1 pin is driven fairly strongly into the 2 pin.
Most of the energy in the 1 pin, is transferred to the 2 pin, but the direction is not quite directly towards the 4 pin.
The 2 pin will glance off the front of the 4 pin, and then go between the wall, and the 7 pin.


You're right Mike, it was most likely the 2 and not the 4 pin that was going between the wall and the 7, that makes more sense now thinking about it. And I like your bottom line too, good thing to keep in mind.

[mc_runner]

I've heard the same - fix is slightly left for a flat 10 and slightly right for a ringing 10. For me personally I just find it easier to repeat throws by adjusting forward/back on the approach than laterally. As my game progresses I hope to be more effective at the small lateral moves though!

[RobLV1]

I understand your confusion. Back in the old days, weak tens were often the result of not enough friction, so the move was often to the right. Today, weak tens are the result of the ball losing energy from too much friction (burning up), hence the move to the left to find more oil. As far as the ringing ten goes, I find that it occurs more often from too much skid with late hook, requiring a little more friction earlier, hence a small move right. Many top bowlers choose to just wait out the ringing tens and allowing the ball to create more friction through a couple of more repititions on the same line.

[Mike White]

Just to preface the following, i'm not trying to dispute your knowledge of bowling. Just curious if you may have written your movements backwards? If i leave a weak ten because as is usually the case the ball failed to get into a roll based on lack of down lane friction, why would i increase that lack of friction by moving deeper in the oil? As far as a ring ten, usually the case is to much down lane angle so if i moved right i'm increasing angle and really risking going through the nose the next shot. If in fact you worded that correctly i would be interested in the thinking on those moves. The only thing i can think of is moving right you are trying to burn the ball up to diminish the down lane reaction and moving left basically trying to jam it in to the pocket? Maybe you are talking about changing your targeting as well? Moving left and moving your target right and moving right and your target left? When trying to tell someone about adjusting you have to expand on all things involved. Again, not trying to dispute your teachings just curious because unless there is another change that goes along with that theory i quite frankly am ignorant to those adjustments.

If instead of your ball not reaching the roll phase, it was reaching the roll phase too early and dying, then moving into more oil makes sense.

And likewise, if if the isn't reaching the roll phase, moving out to more friction makes sense.

The only thing I can disagree is your description of the ring ten, being too much down lane angle.

The weak 10, and ring 10 are too examples of the same problem. Too much ball deflection off of the head pin.

The confusion is that in-between those two amounts of deflection is the shot that kick the 6 off the wall into the 10 pin recognizable by the 10 pin falling to the left.

If you reduce the deflection more, you will drive the 6 pin into the 10 pin, and not have to rely on the 6 pin bouncing off of the wall.

It all depends on where you are comfortable.

High flush, with the occasional 4 pin/ring 10, or playing the 6 off the wall with the occasional flat 10/ring 10.

[Aslan]

I discourage them from making forward/back adjustments as it has the potential to mess with timing that can cause more problems than it cures.

I agree with this. Thats why I use the adjustment of my eyes further/closer rather than actual starting location...less impact on timing. I think Suzie Minshew wrote a nice article on BTM about changing your target further/closer and the benefits...but I could be mistaken...it might have been another author.

The "trick" that I'm looking at/working on now is to train myself that moving that vertical target doesn't necessarily mean I'm trying to get the ball to LAND ON THAT SPOT...it just means it lands further closer...not ON the target. I have a tendency to treat bowling like horseshoes where I try to land the ball ON the target...which creates a lofting issue...rather than TOWARDS the target.

[fortheloveofbowling]

I understand your confusion. Back in the old days, weak tens were often the result of not enough friction, so the move was often to the right. Today, weak tens are the result of the ball losing energy from too much friction (burning up), hence the move to the left to find more oil. As far as the ringing ten goes, I find that it occurs more often from too much skid with late hook, requiring a little more friction earlier, hence a small move right. Many top bowlers choose to just wait out the ringing tens and allowing the ball to create more friction through a couple of more repititions on the same line.

Yeah that makes sense. Its just that things can differ in regards to adjustments depending on whether the lane is fresh or a little burnt and the angles you are playing etc. I think people need to understand there is no set adjustments for fine tuning the way the ball goes through the pins. Those adjustments can differ in relation to what you are doing before the adjustment and what the lane may allow you to do. This is one of those things that to me anyway makes the game harder now compared to the lesser amount of considerations in regards to adjustments when we used different equipment. That is when that lane whisperer article will become very useful.

[RobLV1]

The lane whisperer article was posted on BTM today, but I changed the title to, "Stop, Look, and Listen to the Lanes" for legal reasons.

[Mike White]

I have a tendency to treat bowling like horseshoes where I try to land the ball ON the target...which creates a lofting issue...rather than TOWARDS the target.

That is probably because of your bowling at Concourse where the heads were so bad, you had to play like horseshoes, or as I called it, "Lawn Darts".