what is hook potentia?l

[britjeff]

is it the number of boards the ball will move across?

[RobLV1]

No. "Hook Potential" is made up number that is used to convince bowlers that one ball hooks more than another ball. If you use the number of boards covered to gauge the amount of hook, then it is simply a matter of which ball hooks the soonest, and which ball hooks the latest. The ball that hooks the soonest will cover the most boards, so it is said that it hooks more. The problem is that once the ball starts to hook, it starts on the path to it's own demise in terms of energy. If the ball loses energy before it hits the pins, then it is not an effective tool. The idea is to pick a ball that will retain the energy to the point that it is maximized when the ball hits the pins. If, on the other hand, you use the angle of direction change as a measure of hook, then every ball hooks the same amount, based solely on the release characteristics of the bowler.

[Mike White]

No. "Hook Potential" is made up number that is used to convince bowlers that one ball hooks more than another ball. If you use the number of boards covered to gauge the amount of hook, then it is simply a matter of which ball hooks the soonest, and which ball hooks the latest. The ball that hooks the soonest will cover the most boards, so it is said that it hooks more. The problem is that once the ball starts to hook, it starts on the path to it's own demise in terms of energy. If the ball loses energy before it hits the pins, then it is not an effective tool. The idea is to pick a ball that will retain the energy to the point that it is maximized when the ball hits the pins. If, on the other hand, you use the angle of direction change as a measure of hook, then every ball hooks the same amount, based solely on the release characteristics of the bowler.

"Hook Potential" is made up, about the same as "every ball hooks the same amount" is made up.

[epiepenburg]

Couldn't agree more with both replies. A lot goes into how much a ball will hook, speed and rotation play a big part. If you slow down a ball enough with the same amount of rotation, any ball could in theory hook from one gutter to the other.

So needless to say, it's really just a marketing gimmick to make some equipment more appealing than others. Bowling companies would like you to think that their "professional" line of products hook the most, because customers see the pros throwing that equipment and hooking balls.

[britjeff]

now you have got me all confused. lol was aatching some pba vids on youtube and they were showing the hook potential of the balls the pro's were using.

[fortheloveofbowling]

The question involved the word POTENTIAL. I think we could all agree a shiny entry level ball does not have the potential to hook at all for the average bowler on a long pattern as opposed to say a storm crux. The higher end of the scenario and like drilled balls is what you need to think about in terms of hook potential between balls. Now rob is correct in saying that a lot of balls played on a given line will cover the same amount of boards, just hook sooner or later on its way to the pocket. But move 10-15 left in to the deep inside oil line and that is where you see a difference in what a ball can POTENTIALLY do. Having said that hook potential is something that is really confusing to many because a ball that has the POTENTIAL to cover more boards compared to another ball on one pattern won't cover as many on a different pattern compared to the same ball. When comparing balls look at the rg and diff and that will tell you a lot given a equal drilling.

[RobLV1]

Actually what I said was that balls that hook sooner cover more boards than balls that hook later, but the angle of the change of direction is based solely on the release of the bowler. I think that a lot of the confusion about hook "potential" is based on a lack of definition of the perameters. On the PBA telecasts, for instance, I have seen the same ball given different ratings for different bowlers which leads me to believe that they are taking into account both the actual surface that the bowler has on the ball as well as the layout that has been used. We all know that changing the surface can dramatically change the length, and the layout can change both the rg and the differential of the core from the numbers that are provided for the undrilled ball. Overall, I think that it's a good idea to start thinking about how well a ball carries the corner pins, rather than how much it hooks.

[fortheloveofbowling]

I just think hook potential in defining a ball is confusing to many for the simple reason that people look for different types of maximum reaction. In doing this they may not realize there is a difference and there are limitations to a balls potential performance.

[RobLV1]

Exactly! Thinking that one ball hooks more than another, is like saying that lanes are oily or dry. Where is the oil? Where is the friction? Modern bowling is way too complicated to try to oversimplify. The more specific that bowlers can become, the better that they can perform.

[Aslan]

The other problem with "hook potential" is that every ball manufacturer defines it slightly differently and thus calculates it slightly differently.

I do think each ball has a "hook potential"…but the ball is such a minor player in the equation that it's a rather ridiculous concept. For example; what are the biggest influences on how much a ball hooks in order?

1) Release- A 2-handed, high rev, thumbless, etc style release will dictate how much a ball hooks…ANY ball. For example, I sometimes will mess around with a 9-10lb house ball (plastic) throwing it thumbless. I can stand at the left gutter and get that ball to go almost all the way to the right gutter…and back into the pocket. What is the "hook potential" of a plastic house ball? 1.0

2) Speed- A ball with any sideways rotation or asymmetric drilling (which will happen even with a pancake core ball once you add a few holes to it for fingers and thumb)…when thrown slowly enough…will hook the lane. Example; I had an elderly female teammate once throwing a urethane ball. Due to previous injury, she could only throw it at < 7mph. She threw with a spinner/helicoptor type of release. Her ball hooked so much that if she left a 7-pin (she was a lefty), she couldn't pick it up. What was the "hook potential" of her ball? About 1.5.

3) Lane Conditions. I once played on lanes so dry (post-holiday weekend) that my Brunswick Slingshot when thrown at the most severe angle/line with my low rev release…hooked the lane into the left gutter before it got 45ft. According to Brunswick, when standardizing their scale to a 1-10 scale…the Slingshot has a hook potential of 2.4.

4) Ball Surface. But like Rob was talking about…ball surface is a tricky one. Adding surface causes the ball to hook sooner and/or deal with heavier oil volumes. BUT…when it hooks "sooner" it loses energy sooner and it doesn't give you the most optimal angle (doesn't go long and snap). Example: When I first started bowling in August 2013…I was having trouble getting back to the pocket with my Storm Frantic…so I had it abraloned down a level to try and get it to hook more. But it didn't really work. It made the ball hook just a bit earlier…but lost energy before actually hitting the pocket. Another example; see my "Encounter Project" in my Youtube videos…and you'll see that the overall effect of drilling differences on the ball was marginal if anything at all. BUT…drastically differeing the surfaces actually left to a 1-2 board difference. BUT…the ball hooked the same overall amount…polished or sanded…it was just how SOON it started to hook.

5) Ball Specs/Core/dynamics/etc…

So as you can see…and I'm sure opinions will vary in the order…which is why I added the examples to illustrate my point…a ball's "hook potential" is at BEST the 5th most important thing that dictates how much a ball will hook. MWhite on THS patterns will often times throw very weak equipment such as a Scout or a Mix because his rev rate is in the 400s (rpms). I bowl with a guy that throws all modern (big hook) equipment like the Mastermind Genius, Storm Optimus, and Storm IQ Tour Solid…yet my other teammate routinely "outhooks" him throwing an Ebonite Cyclone….because the 2nd temmate has a very nice release…throws it slower…and uses the lane conditions. The 1st teammate is speed dominant and has a weaker release.

So while ball manufacturers (and even MWhite and Rob) tend to disagree…the ball matters far less than people want us (or they themselves want to) believe.

[Aslan]

Exactly! Thinking that one ball hooks more than another, is like saying that lanes are oily or dry. Where is the oil? Where is the friction? Modern bowling is way too complicated to try to oversimplify. The more specific that bowlers can become, the better that they can perform.

Unless they "over-think" it???? :o

[RobLV1]

So while ball manufacturers (and even MWhite and Rob) tend to disagree…the ball matters far less than people want us (or they themselves want to) believe.

Not even close. The ball matters far more than most people believe, just not for the reasons that they believe. It's not how much hook that matters, it's finding a ball that retains the right amount of energy. I'll go out on a limb here and predict that even Mike will agree here.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Not even close. The ball matters far more than most people believe, just not for the reasons that they believe. It's not how much hook that matters, it's finding a ball that retains the right amount of energy. I'll go out on a limb here and predict that even Mike will agree here.

The ball is in my opinion is of great importance at an equal degree to all levels of bowlers except people just beginning. At higher levels you can absolutely hit a wall progressing or executing without the right equipment on a given shot. At lower levels you make it very tough on yourself to get better and even worse a lot of those people don't even realize it is part of the problem.

[Mike White]

Not even close. The ball matters far more than most people believe, just not for the reasons that they believe. It's not how much hook that matters, it's finding a ball that retains the right amount of energy. I'll go out on a limb here and predict that even Mike will agree here.

I hear some cracking on that limb.

One ball doesn't retain or lose energy more than another.

Due to friction, the type of energy is converted from linear to angular (ball slows down and increases rev rate)

I think the "secret" to great carry is getting the core of the ball in it's most stable state (following the RG curve) as it impacts the pins.

The ball is drilled in an unstable state to achieve track flare.

As the ball flares the core is turning along a changing axis (ever changing stability), and the increase of rev rate increases stability of the core.

A ball with no rev rate will deflect significantly. The trick is what happens the instant after the impact with the head pin.

With no rev rate, there is no angular momentum to try and drive the ball in the same direction as before the impact.

Higher Rev rate means more drive after impact, more stable core means the drive will maintain the same direction as before impact.

The ball will bounce to the right off the head pin (right handed, pocket shot) but before it contacts the 3 pin, it can alter it's course to the left enough to hit the 3 pin into the 6-10.

The easiest way to demonstrate this "drive" is on the pool table.

Place a ball on the foot spot then place the cue ball behind the head string.

Now try to drive the object ball into the left corner with no english on the ball.

The natural result is for the cue ball to deflect into the other corner pocket.

Now try again, but this time hit the cue ball with high right english.

The cue ball should strike the back cushion rather than deflect into the corner pocket.

In bowling it's the little bit of "english" that reduces the likelihood of both the flat, and ringing 10 pin.

I put in a great deal of practice games studying what impacted carry back in the 70's, and I finally discovered that reducing deflection was the key.

To train my hand to get the release required, I would roll 9 lb house balls, using only my middle finger (had to put it in the thumb hole, only place it would fit)

Once I was able to reduce the deflection with the 9 lb ball, I worked on getting the same roll on a 15 lb ball.

Since the friction levels between balls and lane surface was much lower back then, the increase in rev rate had to come from the hand.

Drilling axis weighted balls made them the most stable when using a pancake weight block because the result was the HIGH RG being on the axis.

Before reactive resin, I didn't think in terms of the RG, just the gyroscopic properties and reducing lope.

The fact that the ball crossed a more boards than other bowlers was a necessary "evil", not the goal.

[Aslan]

I'll go out on a limb here and predict that even Mike will agree here.


I hear some cracking on that limb.

:D :D Just put them two in a room together for 16 hours and watch through a window...it'd be almost as entertaining as bowling! Rob...EVERY time I've said to Mike.."...even YOU would agree with THAT right?"....the answer is 90% of the time, "not really."


The ball is in my opinion is of great importance at an equal degree to all levels of bowlers except people just beginning. At higher levels you can absolutely hit a wall progressing or executing without the right equipment on a given shot. At lower levels you make it very tough on yourself to get better and even worse a lot of those people don't even realize it is part of the problem.

I'd agree with that...but if you look at the list I made and the examples I've given...what you're saying is that because a professional has already master #1-#4...the ball becomes more important. Okay, I'll give you that...but thats like saying the most important aspect of horse racing is what size shoe the jockey is wearing....AFTER you remove the horse, jockey size, and track conditions from the equation.

Yes...a pro bowler with a pro release, and consistent speed, on lane conditions they've mastered, with a truck full of new bowling balls and multiple surfaces...yes...I suppose then they'd struggle throwing a Tropical Breeze or Cyclone versus their professional competition throwing Hyper Cells or Cruxs.

But...in the REAL world...in house leagues...generally the bowlers chasing 300 games each night are just as likely to be throwing a Storm Crux as they are Virtual Gravity or Mastermind or even some lower hook DV8 Diva or Dude or even some ball from 20 years ago. Of matter of fact...I'd say at the THS house level...I see far more amateur bowlers struggle with new equipment than benefit from it. I watched one of our top 15 bowlers (in out Tuesday league) and he struggled like mad trying to throw his brand new Storm Crux...meanwhile his teammate has a higher average and almost bowled a 300-game throwing some old Storm Secret Agent or something like that. It was so old and beat up I could hardly make out the brand/name.

I'd ask a Professional to chime in on this issue...but in addition to not having any in here chatting regularly...there's the minor issue that very few sponsored PBA pros are going to rush in to a forum to admit the ball doesn't matter as much as people think...that would tend to make their sponsors at the least "slightly annoyed".

[RobLV1]

You wouldn't catch me in that room for 16 minutes, much less 16 hours. I'd have more success beating my head against a brick wall!