Is Belmonte/Rash staged??

[Aslan]

Everyone knows I'm not a big Belmonte fan. And I'm not really a Rash fan either.

But recently, no matter how much the PBA tends to really push the "biggest rivalry in bowling"…I've noticed that Belmonte doesn't appear comfortable with it. He tends to downplay it without actually downplaying it. You can read him visually and he just doesn't seem that into it. It sorta makes me think that maybe a LOT of it is staged and encouraged by the PBA. The same as we saw with PDW where he tried to play "pro-wrestler" on TV but off camera was a bit different.

Just wondering if anyone else feels that way. I certainly wouldn't put it past the PBA given this ownership's track record.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Rash and belmonte really don't care for one another. I think rash more towards belmonte. Just like every other walk of life some people just don't get along. You add in the bottle incident which i don't think was on purpose and overblown by rash, there you go. I do believe the pba encourages their players to try to show passion and personality so the viewing audience doesn't just see everyone as a wet towel. As far as pete goes he is a big wrestling fan so that just comes out as part of his personality in addition to the most fierce competitor the tour has ever seen. But still he is a great sportsman and from what i've heard a good guy overall and pleasant off the lanes especially, unless someone is being a jerk with him.

[epiepenburg]

Wasn't there also an incident during qualifying one tournament where Belmo was refusing to sign Rash's score sheet? I thought I saw a YouTube clip on that.

[got_a_300]

Wasn't there also an incident during qualifying one tournament where Belmo was refusing to sign Rash's score sheet? I thought I saw a YouTube clip on that.

Belmo was not writing down Rash's scores as he was supposed to do
since he was done bowling first and he got reprimanded for it and was
told to do it or be fined.

[zdawg]

I wouldn't describe it as staged, just massively overblown. I believe Rash was truly pissed at Belmonte back when the bottle incident occurred, but now its like neither one of them really cares that much about the supposed "rivalry". I understand the PBA is trying to create characters, and I have no doubt the announcers are told to play it up as much as possible.

[Aslan]

Rash and belmonte really don't care for one another. I think rash more towards belmonte.

See...even though I don't like Belmonte nor his 2-handed antics...and even though I WANT to like Sean Rash because;
1) He's Belmo's enemy...
2) He's a Brunswick guy...
3) He has one of the best bowling forms/releases I've ever seen...

I don't really like him because he just comes off as a big jerk. I agree FTLOB that I think he over-reacted to that incident...and I think he's continued to hold some kind of grudge despite Belmo appearing to not really care and shrug it off. It almost seems like a cultural difference. I'm no expert on world cultures...but it seems like Belmo didn't really think what he was doing was that big of a deal and was just trying to "play" while Rash looked at it as some personal attack on him. Watching them two on the lanes together...you just get a sense that Belmo would "like" to be friends...but Rash is having none of it.

Would they become besties if the PBA didn't like the rivalry? Probably not. But I just get the feeling that Rash is MUCH more resolved with the idea of them being "enemies" than is Belmo. But I could be wrong.

[FireCapt782]

Back in the 80's and early 90's when I followed and bowled like crazy I considered it more of a gentlemans sport like golf. After taking a long time off and coming back to it the PBA seems more like NASCAR or Wrestling, It seems kinda scripted, not a path I want it to follow.

[Aslan]

Back in the 80's and early 90's when I followed and bowled like crazy I considered it more of a gentlemans sport like golf. After taking a long time off and coming back to it the PBA seems more like NASCAR or Wrestling, It seems kinda scripted, not a path I want it to follow.

Yeah. The PBA owners have decided the best way to make money on owning the PBA is to destroy it...and the best way to do that is to make it into some kind of spectacle. So now we get a pretty sideline reporter with the brains/wit of a marshmellow asking bowlers stupid questions and we get an occasional appearance by Flavor Flav...an obscure reality TV show participant that hasn't been relevant since they cancelled "Yo MTV Raps" in the early 90s. Hey, at the celebrity event...they even had models holding up giant signs with numbers on them like in a boxing or UFC match...for all the idiots that have trouble counting in the 1-10 range.

[bubba809]

"there's your water bottle, b*tch!"

[Mudpuppy]

I agree overblown and I am very proud of you Aslan. You didn't need to write an 8 page post to intelligently share your thoughts. Good work {insert thumbs up emoticon here}

[Jaescrub]

Nope it's real dislike for each other. Lines been placed in the sand pick a side boys!

[Hobbit]

There was incident in 2015 USBC Masters with Belmo, over a towel on the ball return, with a bowler who has a short fuse at best of times.. Interesting viewing!!! Love to know what u Belmo haters think of that one hehehe..

The bowlers were told no towels or rosin bags on the ball return, seems Belmo, and some other bowlers in the finals forgot that, however the bowling media are sure to play up Belmo and his apparent lack of etiquette and grace.

[vdubtx]

There was incident in 2015 USBC Masters with Belmo, over a towel on the ball return, with a bowler who has a short fuse at best of times.. Interesting viewing!!! Love to know what u Belmo haters think of that one hehehe..

The bowlers were told no towels or rosin bags on the ball return, seems Belmo, and some other bowlers in the finals forgot that, however the bowling media are sure to play up Belmo and his apparent lack of etiquette and grace.

Aside from on the show, has it even been reported on? The media doesn't seem to care about the incident(hate to call it that). We will likely only hear about it on the PBA telecasts. Extremely far fetched to even broach the idea of a full blown investigation and circus like deflate-gate.

[Aslan]

Love to know what u Belmo haters think of that one hehehe..

If it had happened to someone other than PDW; I'd have cared. But PDW is someone that just behaves like a douche no matter what...and LOVES to look for excuses when things aren't going his way.

But like I said, as a 'Belmo hater'...if it was ME...I'd have thrown his towel on the floor every time I got up to bowl. Ya can't fine me or even reprimand me when the towel is in a place it doesn't belong.

[epiepenburg]

If it had happened to someone other than PDW; I'd have cared. But PDW is someone that just behaves like a douche no matter what...and LOVES to look for excuses when things aren't going his way.

But like I said, as a 'Belmo hater'...if it was ME...I'd have thrown his towel on the floor every time I got up to bowl. Ya can't fine me or even reprimand me when the towel is in a place it doesn't belong.

While I think they (announcers) played up the towel thing a little much on tv, I think Pete was equally unhappy with the approach. Numerous times he stuck on the approach and would look down. The announcers claimed they did something to "fix" the approach during a commercial break, but Pete still seemed to have issues a few frames later.

I honestly don't know what was wrong with the approach, more than likely it was something with his shoes. I just read that he dropped out of the TOC because he stuck and fell during practice. Hope he is ok, as someone who has had that happen to them, it is not fun, and it's something that can stick in your head for a while.

[Aslan]

I honestly don't know what was wrong with the approach, more than likely it was something with his shoes. I just read that he dropped out of the TOC because he stuck and fell during practice. Hope he is ok, as someone who has had that happen to them, it is not fun, and it's something that can stick in your head for a while.

Maybe it's time for him to break in a new pair of shoes. I heard that he never buys/uses new bowling shoes. He likes his old shoes that he's always worn. Well...if all the sudden you start sticking like mad...falling, etc...might be time to stop blaming the approach and get a new pair of shoes.

[Mudpuppy]

If it had happened to someone other than PDW; I'd have cared. But PDW is someone that just behaves like a douche no matter what...and LOVES to look for excuses when things aren't going his way.

But like I said, as a 'Belmo hater'...if it was ME...I'd have thrown his towel on the floor every time I got up to bowl. Ya can't fine me or even reprimand me when the towel is in a place it doesn't belong.

I know for a fact PDW is all an act. He acts like that for TV. In real life totally mellow cool dude.

[Aslan]

I know for a fact PDW is all an act. He acts like that for TV. In real life totally mellow cool dude.

My only area of potential disagreement is I've watched him during qualifying...on xtra fram...and even with the cameras off...you'll still see him throwing tantrums about some noise or something. He just seems like "that kinda guy". It's not a big deal...we deal with people like that on league night EVERY night...some of us may BE the person who behaves like that. I just think PDW needs things going well, or he turns into retro Marshall Holman and it's everyone and everything elses fault.

[Monte]

Apparently, Belmonte did something similar to Brad Angelo in 2011...looks kinda pre-meditated...see for yourself...

Belmo picks up the water bottle...holds it...and waits until Angelo is on his approach to "crunch" the bottle...

Look starting at about 0:30...Belmonte reaches for the bottle, and holds it...then if you pause at 0:39...looks like he's ready to "crunch" the bottle...and if you listen closely, you can hear it at 0:42 or so...

Then, start at 1:06...and watch again...you can hear the crinkle at 1:07 to 1:09-ish...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvmDU41KHus

[got_a_300]

Maybe the PBA needs to ban the use of the clear flimsy
plastic water bottles during the finals and maybe replace
them with a more sturdy plastic type of water bottle that
doesn't crunch.

[manke]

I think the pba is trying to make drama so people tune in to the telacasts.

[AndrewRM]

I hadn't really heard about this until now, but then again I haven't really looked at bowling at all except for the past month. I don't hold favor with any bowler, but it definitely seems intentional. I used to buy the flimsy cheapo water bottles all the time and the only time it has ever crinkled is when you're first initially opening it and have to break the seal. After that it's very easy to twist the cap off without applying any pressure whatsoever to the bottle. I find it hard to believe that if you're consciously trying to be quiet, which you would be during a pro game, that you would crinkle the bottle especially at such crucial moments like those.

[Ryan1700]

Saw one of the PBA League events, the skills competition I believe. Rash did something and comes back and high fives Barnes, Duke, and the others...sees Belmonte and skips him, and high fives the others.

[Aslan]

I think the pba is trying to make drama so people tune in to the telacasts.

It's all fun and games and ratings...until you do that to the wrong person. Then it's a major black eye for the sport as global media replays video of Belmo getting punched in the face.

And the sad thing is...no matter what Belmo does...he'll be seen as the victim...because he's bowling's golden goose.

Like I said...if it was me...I'd have warned him...if he kept doing it...fight fire with fire and when he's in his approach yell "Choke!" And if he puts his towel on my ball...I throw it on the floor. Problem solved. And if he whines about it...whatever. If the PBA wants excitement...I'd give em all the excitement they can handle.

[Ryan1700]

Like I said...if it was me...I'd have warned him...if he kept doing it...fight fire with fire and when he's in his approach yell "Choke!" And if he puts his towel on my ball...I throw it on the floor. Problem solved. And if he whines about it...whatever. If the PBA wants excitement...I'd give em all the excitement they can handle.

Yep! There is a lot of money on the line and these guys do this for a living. It's not like pro wrestling where you are paid to be a heel. I always secretly hope Rash punches him in the face. Would really like to see Wes Malott do it but he is too nice. Plus I think a punch from him would kill someone.

[bubba809]

Yep! There is a lot of money on the line and these guys do this for a living. It's not like pro wrestling where you are paid to be a heel. I always secretly hope Rash punches him in the face. Would really like to see Wes Malott do it but he is too nice. Plus I think a punch from him would kill someone.


You don't mess with the Texas Tornado A.K.A. The Big Nasty!

I still can't believe nobody is going after Rash here. I'll be the first to say I cannot stand Belmo. Belmo this, Belmo that. I can't turn on one Sunday ESPN broadcast without seeing his unshaven face. Just grow a real beard already! The arrogance. The cockiness. The NBA sleeve. You can spout out any medical reason you want, guy doesn't need it. It is a For Show thing. Look at me, I want to be like A.I. !!(Allen Iverson). And don't even get me started on how two handed should have there own division...

Anyways, no matter how much of a douche Belmo is, Rash is just a downright mean spirited ahole. A hotheaded punk who always has a scowl on his face. And he has been this way for YEARS. There have been many incidents involving Rash were Pros have come out and stated what a poor sport he is. Guy in my Proshop has bowled with him a few times and said he will be one of the only guys that doesn't take time to talk to others or socialize with them. He said he only shakes hands after losing if it's on national television. At least I have seen Belmo be humble.

As far as the water bottle thing only crunching when you first open it......Have you bought a case of water from Giant Eagle/Get Go?? Flimsiest damn things ever.

[NewToBowling]

You don't mess with the Texas Tornado A.K.A. The Big Nasty!

I still can't believe nobody is going after Rash here. I'll be the first to say I cannot stand Belmo. Belmo this, Belmo that. I can't turn on one Sunday ESPN broadcast without seeing his unshaven face. Just grow a real beard already! The arrogance. The cockiness. The NBA sleeve. You can spout out any medical reason you want, guy doesn't need it. It is a For Show thing. Look at me, I want to be like A.I. !!(Allen Iverson). And don't even get me started on how two handed should have there own division...

Anyways, no matter how much of a douche Belmo is, Rash is just a downright mean spirited ahole. A hotheaded punk who always has a scowl on his face. And he has been this way for YEARS. There have been many incidents involving Rash were Pros have come out and stated what a poor sport he is. Guy in my Proshop has bowled with him a few times and said he will be one of the only guys that doesn't take time to talk to others or socialize with them. He said he only shakes hands after losing if it's on national television. At least I have seen Belmo be humble.

As far as the water bottle thing only crunching when you first open it......Have you bought a case of water from Giant Eagle/Get Go?? Flimsiest damn things ever.

The big difference between Belmonte and Rash is one wins most of the time and the other hasn't been on televised PBA events in a long time. One will eventually go down as the BEST bowler in history.

Yes, I do believe Belmonte will go down as #1 when it's all said and done. He is so consistent with his two handed approach and honestly I don't see the bad guy aspect of it. He doesn't come off as a douche or cry-baby as Rash.

Belmonte truly cares for the sport and growing it even if it's self serving.

Bowling would be boring with the nice guy but no personality fellows such as Duke, WRW, and Barnes

[fortheloveofbowling]

The big difference between Belmonte and Rash is one wins most of the time and the other hasn't been on televised PBA events in a long time. One will eventually go down as the BEST bowler in history.

Yes, I do believe Belmonte will go down as #1 when it's all said and done. He is so consistent with his two handed approach and honestly I don't see the bad guy aspect of it. He doesn't come off as a douche or cry-baby as Rash.

Belmonte truly cares for the sport and growing it even if it's self serving.

Bowling would be boring with the nice guy but no personality fellows such as Duke, WRW, and Barnes

Rash has not been on tv in a long time? Just curious about what makes you think belmo is the great caring individual that you portray him as unless he is your brother or son? Not saying he is or isn't but i'm not really willing to make him a dick weber style ambassador based on youtube videos throwing bowling balls in skateparks or wherever. I do agree he has a personality but that does not mean he is growing the sport. Actually i think belmo winning all the time makes bowling look like a joke to non bowlers. They must think look at this freak, i bet they will be glow bowling on tv soon. To be honest, i think belmonte is a bigger jerk than rash and does not mind resorting to cheap mind games in competition. Other than that i love the guy.

[NewToBowling]

Rash has not been on tv in a long time? Just curious about what makes you think belmo is the great caring individual that you portray him as unless he is your brother or son? Not saying he is or isn't but i'm not really willing to make him a dick weber style ambassador based on youtube videos throwing bowling balls in skateparks or wherever. I do agree he has a personality but that does not mean he is growing the sport. Actually i think belmo winning all the time makes bowling look like a joke to non bowlers. They must think look at this freak, i bet they will be glow bowling on tv soon. To be honest, i think belmonte is a bigger jerk than rash and does not mind resorting to cheap mind games in competition. Other than that i love the guy.

You have your opinion, I have mine. I think Belmo is the best thing that has happened to bowling in a long time.

And why do you consider him a freak? Because he bowls two handed. This is the root for all the hatred for him. He is different but kicking everyone's behind. 10 television appearances in last 12 PBA events will make others jealous.

I'm sorry if he isn't traditional thumb one handed bowler. He is good at what he does and right now is the best bowler out there.

Full disclosure I don't bowl two handed but can appreciate what he brings to the game.

[zdawg]

Actually i think belmo winning all the time makes bowling look like a joke to non bowlers.

Not sure if I agree with this logic. When Tiger was on top of the world winning everything in sight, PGA viewership and interest in golf went through the ROOF.

Nobody thought basketball was a joke when Michael Jordan's Bulls demolished every team in the league to the tune of two 3-peats (would've been even more ridiculous had he not retired briefly in between).

As much as I HATE HATE HATE the New England Patriots (did I mention I HATE them) and the streams of bang wagon jumping idiots that they have attracted (I remember in the 90's where there were ZERO Pats fans outside of the Northeast), they have DOMINATED the NFL in a way NO other team has done in the salary cap/FA era. And the NFL is still the biggest drawing sport in the US.

Just because a person/team is dominant doesn't make the associated sport a joke, what they're really doing is setting the bar that much higher. Which in turn makes it that more challenging for the rest of the league and forces them to step up their game, as well as up and comers/future generations to reach higher than what they thought was possible.

To me the image I have in my mind of the old days was of obese, beer swilling chain smokers. This probably has a lot to do with the fact that growing up in the 80's that's what I saw in the local bowling alleys, and probably why I NEVER considered bowling as a serious sport (in those days). In fact they even poke fun at that image in the movie Kingpin. To me THAT made the sport a joke (in the eyes of the average bowler), and that image to me still plays a role in the perception of bowling to the general public today.

Hell, that documentary on bowling although putting bowling in a serious light, even called itself "League of ORDINARY Gentleman". It's like even the producers of the documentary can't even take the sport or the bowlers featured in the movie seriously.

Bowling has a serious image problem. Featuring a young, dominant, articulate, and charismatic bowler who reaches out to the general public and bowling enthusiasts alike, on all kinds of social media, doing apperances, etc. goes a long way towards fixing that. In fact, if some of the other "young guns" of the sport put as much into publicizing the sport as Belmo does, the sport would be MUCH better for it.

And full disclaimer, I'm not a 2 hander either but really have no issues with it whatsoever. :cool:

[NewToBowling]

Not sure if I agree with this logic. When Tiger was on top of the world winning everything in sight, PGA viewership and interest in golf went through the ROOF.

Nobody thought basketball was a joke when Michael Jordan's Bulls demolished every team in the league to the tune of two 3-peats (would've been even more ridiculous had he not retired briefly in between).

As much as I HATE HATE HATE the New England Patriots (did I mention I HATE them) and the streams of bang wagon jumping idiots that they have attracted (I remember in the 90's where there were ZERO Pats fans outside of the Northeast), they have DOMINATED the NFL in a way NO other team has done in the salary cap/FA era. And the NFL is still the biggest drawing sport in the US.

Just because a person/team is dominant doesn't make the associated sport a joke, what they're really doing is setting the bar that much higher. Which in turn makes it that more challenging for the rest of the league and forces them to step up their game, as well as up and comers/future generations to reach higher than what they thought was possible.

To me the image I have in my mind of the old days was of obese, beer swilling chain smokers. This probably has a lot to do with the fact that growing up in the 80's that's what I saw in the local bowling alleys, and probably why I NEVER considered bowling as a serious sport (in those days). In fact they even poke fun at that image in the movie Kingpin. To me THAT made the sport a joke (in the eyes of the average bowler), and that image to me still plays a role in the perception of bowling to the general public today.

Hell, that documentary on bowling although putting bowling in a serious light, even called itself "League of ORDINARY Gentleman". It's like even the producers of the documentary can't even take the sport or the bowlers featured in the movie seriously.

Bowling has a serious image problem. Featuring a young, dominant, articulate, and charismatic bowler who reaches out to the general public and bowling enthusiasts alike, on all kinds of social media, doing apperances, etc. goes a long way towards fixing that. In fact, if some of the other "young guns" of the sport put as much into publicizing the sport as Belmo does, the sport would be MUCH better for it.

And full disclaimer, I'm not a 2 hander either but really have no issues with it whatsoever. :cool:

I think fortheloveofbowling is intimating is that his "freakish" two handed delivery is "improper" and unbecoming of the sport.

I say hogwash. He just does it better than anyone else. The reason most bowlers don't go with two handed delivery is because they can't get a consistent delivery each and every time. Belmonte does. And he shoots his spares two handed also so there is no gimmick there.

And Belmonte should be the face of bowling/PBA. He is young, enthusiastic, and has personality. Same with Rash, Ronnie Russell, and others.

[fortheloveofbowling]

I think fortheloveofbowling is intimating is that his "freakish" two handed delivery is "improper" and unbecoming of the sport.

I say hogwash. He just does it better than anyone else. The reason most bowlers don't go with two handed delivery is because they can't get a consistent delivery each and every time. Belmonte does. And he shoots his spares two handed also so there is no gimmick there.

And Belmonte should be the face of bowling/PBA. He is young, enthusiastic, and has personality. Same with Rash, Ronnie Russell, and others.

I don't have an issue with dominance in sport at all. If you want to be the best you have to beat the best. I just don't care for the style because i'm a bowling purist. Actually the 2 handed delivery is easier to get a consistent release because there is no thumb involved. The reasons why you don't see more 2 handers is because of the fact it is physically harder to achieve for a large portion of bowlers and there is just not that many qualified and willing teachers. Osku palerma has been around longer than belmo and made a us open show probably 10-12 years ago. In that amount of time you would think that there would be more but it just not the case. I believe there are many underlying and unexpressed oppositions to the 2 handed game that never come out. Many top level coaches i believe just don't want anything to do with it.

[zdawg]

I don't have an issue with dominance in sport at all. If you want to be the best you have to beat the best. I just don't care for the style because i'm a bowling purist.

Gotcha, I misunderstood what you were saying :cool:

[vdubtx]

Man, you guys really get heated about a person that has been good for the sport. The guy likes to have fun when he can and I think has a good sense of humor.

[fortheloveofbowling]

I ain't mad bro...Just passionate about my opinions and sometimes facts.

[NewToBowling]

I don't have an issue with dominance in sport at all. If you want to be the best you have to beat the best. I just don't care for the style because i'm a bowling purist. Actually the 2 handed delivery is easier to get a consistent release because there is no thumb involved. The reasons why you don't see more 2 handers is because of the fact it is physically harder to achieve for a large portion of bowlers and there is just not that many qualified and willing teachers. Osku palerma has been around longer than belmo and made a us open show probably 10-12 years ago. In that amount of time you would think that there would be more but it just not the case. I believe there are many underlying and unexpressed oppositions to the 2 handed game that never come out. Many top level coaches i believe just don't want anything to do with it.

2 handed is harder to control because there is no thumb involved. That is what makes Belmonte so good. Not anyone can just pick up a ball and start bowling 2 handed and be as good as him. It's not that he bowls two handed that makes him good, it's that he is a better bowler than anyone else today. Part of it is his strong mental game. He doesn't let people get into his head but he sure as heck gets into other peoples heads (PDW, Rash, etc)

[fortheloveofbowling]

2 handed is harder to control because there is no thumb involved. That is what makes Belmonte so good. Not anyone can just pick up a ball and start bowling 2 handed and be as good as him. It's not that he bowls two handed that makes him good, it's that he is a better bowler than anyone else today. Part of it is his strong mental game. He doesn't let people get into his head but he sure as heck gets into other peoples heads (PDW, Rash, etc)


Ok man, you obviously know what your talking about.

[bubba809]

This thread is dedicated towards the Rash/Belmonte confliction. Talk about irony.

[fortheloveofbowling]

This thread is dedicated towards the Rash/Belmonte confliction. Talk about irony.

You are correct. My apologies.

[bubba809]

You are correct. My apologies.

No no no, I was referring to the heated debate you and NewtoBowling had going on. It was like the Rash/Belmo rivalry.:)

[NewToBowling]

No no no, I was referring to the heated debate you and NewtoBowling had going on. It was like the Rash/Belmo rivalry.:)

Not heated. No hate. I actually like Rash. Think he is good for the game

[NewToBowling]

Ok man, you obviously know what your talking about.

It is true he is in other bowlers heads. They always have to watch his bowling lines during qualifying as he burns up the lanes so much. That throws off everyone else's game.

[Ryan1700]

I bet if you got all of the pros together, especially the old school guys, and got a few drinks in them you would find out Rash ins't the only one who is not exactly a fan of Belmonte. And I do agree with what was said earlier about it making the sport look like a joke somewhat. I compare it to Happy Gilmore. That is an illegal shot on the golf course because it makes a mockery of the spirit of the way the game was designed to be played. I have stepped up on the range and done the Happy Gilmore swing and knocked the living snot out of it. I know you guys are not going to believe me but to the tune of 380+ yards. Sometimes it goes straight, sometimes it goes straight left, sometimes straight right, sometimes off the hosel. That is why I feel it is a pretty good comparison to two handed bowling. The timing is crucial and when it works, it works and when it doesn't... well you get it. The point is that there are rules in place to not allow such things as it is not "correct". I am not trying to turn the thread into a for or against two handed bowling argument, just citing those differences as a factor in the Rash/Belmonte feud. Or the anyone/Belmonte feud for that matter.

[Mike White]

I bet if you got all of the pros together, especially the old school guys, and got a few drinks in them you would find out Rash ins't the only one who is not exactly a fan of Belmonte. And I do agree with what was said earlier about it making the sport look like a joke somewhat. I compare it to Happy Gilmore. That is an illegal shot on the golf course because it makes a mockery of the spirit of the way the game was designed to be played. I have stepped up on the range and done the Happy Gilmore swing and knocked the living snot out of it. I know you guys are not going to believe me but to the tune of 380+ yards. Sometimes it goes straight, sometimes it goes straight left, sometimes straight right, sometimes off the hosel. That is why I feel it is a pretty good comparison to two handed bowling. The timing is crucial and when it works, it works and when it doesn't... well you get it. The point is that there are rules in place to not allow such things as it is not "correct". I am not trying to turn the thread into a for or against two handed bowling argument, just citing those differences as a factor in the Rash/Belmonte feud. Or the anyone/Belmonte feud for that matter.

If anyone is to blame for the 2 handed style, it's the ABC/USBC for not protecting the credibility of the sport.

It's as if the USGA allowed golf balls that could fly 500 yards, yet not hook/slice for the average hack.

Bowling used to be a game of "touch", not pure strength.

As you increased the speed, the ball went straighter and straighter.

As you increased revs, it hooked more, to a point (where you matched speed and revs) then any more revs made it hook less.

Lane conditions didn't dictate where the mass of people had to play, you played based on your attributes.

With todays balls, there doesn't appear to be a limit on how much speed can be effective, and the more speed (assuming the ball rolls) the better.

Since a faster moving ball transfers more energy into the pins, the side boards are much more in play than in the past.

[fortheloveofbowling]

If anyone is to blame for the 2 handed style, it's the ABC/USBC for not protecting the credibility of the sport.

It's as if the USGA allowed golf balls that could fly 500 yards, yet not hook/slice for the average hack.

Bowling used to be a game of "touch", not pure strength.

As you increased the speed, the ball went straighter and straighter.

As you increased revs, it hooked more, to a point (where you matched speed and revs) then any more revs made it hook less.

Lane conditions didn't dictate where the mass of people had to play, you played based on your attributes.

With todays balls, there doesn't appear to be a limit on how much speed can be effective, and the more speed (assuming the ball rolls) the better.

Since a faster moving ball transfers more energy into the pins, the side boards are much more in play than in the past.

Amen brother. I wish the pba would mix it up with some of the wtba patterns that utilize a large portion of the total volume of oil on the reverse pass. That seems to get the backends to hold up longer and forces players to back their hand out of the ball to get it through the fronts. When i hear guys like Norm duke say he is totally out of it based on the fact the pattern is so blown apart and really can't be effective moving in deep something is wrong. This game is not supposed to be played lofting the gutter cap and playing 7th arrow. I'm not saying intentionally try to shut out the big boomers but mix it up a lot more than they do.

[fortheloveofbowling]

I bet if you got all of the pros together, especially the old school guys, and got a few drinks in them you would find out Rash ins't the only one who is not exactly a fan of Belmonte. And I do agree with what was said earlier about it making the sport look like a joke somewhat. I compare it to Happy Gilmore. That is an illegal shot on the golf course because it makes a mockery of the spirit of the way the game was designed to be played. I have stepped up on the range and done the Happy Gilmore swing and knocked the living snot out of it. I know you guys are not going to believe me but to the tune of 380+ yards. Sometimes it goes straight, sometimes it goes straight left, sometimes straight right, sometimes off the hosel. That is why I feel it is a pretty good comparison to two handed bowling. The timing is crucial and when it works, it works and when it doesn't... well you get it. The point is that there are rules in place to not allow such things as it is not "correct". I am not trying to turn the thread into a for or against two handed bowling argument, just citing those differences as a factor in the Rash/Belmonte feud. Or the anyone/Belmonte feud for that matter.

Thank you. Belmonte and palerma are unbelievably impressive with what they do. I have seen it up close bowling on the same pair as osku at the high roller one year. As powerful as it looks on tv it does not even compare with seeing that ball speed and rave rate up close. Simply amazing. I just like to see shot making ability rewarded, not the ability to blow apart the back end and then play a 5 board area at the end of the pattern. Again, those guys are really amazing and have worked hard to perfect there talents, i just wish as mike said the lanes would play more often where players could play at least close to there attributes. The game is about adjusting and i'm not saying you should not have to get out of your comfort zone just rewarding shot making wherever you are playing.

[NewToBowling]

I bet if you got all of the pros together, especially the old school guys, and got a few drinks in them you would find out Rash ins't the only one who is not exactly a fan of Belmonte. And I do agree with what was said earlier about it making the sport look like a joke somewhat. I compare it to Happy Gilmore. That is an illegal shot on the golf course because it makes a mockery of the spirit of the way the game was designed to be played. I have stepped up on the range and done the Happy Gilmore swing and knocked the living snot out of it. I know you guys are not going to believe me but to the tune of 380+ yards. Sometimes it goes straight, sometimes it goes straight left, sometimes straight right, sometimes off the hosel. That is why I feel it is a pretty good comparison to two handed bowling. The timing is crucial and when it works, it works and when it doesn't... well you get it. The point is that there are rules in place to not allow such things as it is not "correct". I am not trying to turn the thread into a for or against two handed bowling argument, just citing those differences as a factor in the Rash/Belmonte feud. Or the anyone/Belmonte feud for that matter.

if two handed is so much easier and superior than how come there aren't more out there. Why do people constantly look down upon people who don't bowl the "traditional" way. Different strokes for different folks.

The only reason most people don't like Belmonte is they know he is better then them and beating the game with a different approach

[NewToBowling]

We all know the PBA needs as many viewers as it can get. They're hemorrhaging money right now. Prize money for first place was $50k for a major. That's pretty bad. People like Belmonte are a step in the right direction

[britjeff]

i think a lot of it is because Belmonte is an Aussie. in Aussie cricket they have a thing called sledging, it's basicly mind games. I remember one incicdent when Australia were playing England. As the teams were coming out one of the Aussies told told one of the Brit players he was looking fat, to which the Brit replied it was because the Ausiie players wife gave hiim a biscuit every time they had sex. to the Aussies it's just part of the overall game. get inside someones head and you win.

[Aslan]

I also think it's cultural.

I've never been to Austrailia or even known an Austrailian…but it seems like Belmo is more relaxed and looks at these little battles and mind games and disagreements as "no big deal". Thats why I sort of feel bad for him…because I don't think he means it as much as people think. I feel like he kinda got blindsided by the way Angelo and Rash reacted…and then the whole rivalry took a life of it's own. And it seems like in every interview he tends to play around and not really take it that seriously…where as a guy like Rash, with a different cultural background…seems to really hang onto that "slight".

Thats why I think Belmo is eventualy going to have to either get fined or physically attacked before he truly "gets the picture". Like a child that keeps testing the rules…not really taking it seriously…then they get yelled at or disciplined and suddenly they "get it". Belmo seems to be "just playing" but his opponents are seeing it as personal disrespect. And the PBA is doing NOTHING to interfere with Belmo and his popularity…which is leading to an eventual "incident".

[JoeInPI]

I enjoy Belmo's easy going personality- I think it would be a blast to hang out with him and have some beers. I think the PBA ruined him for a lot of purists by constantly talking about him over and over and over and over on every telecast, every frame, even when he isn't on the lanes. A lot of people are just sick of hearing how incredible he is. Come on- he's been on the tour since 2008 and has 12 titles. That's good, but Tommy Jones won his first 12 in 4 years. The PBA never pushed Tommy Jones as hard as Belmo. Did they push him? Yes- but not every sentence on a telecast. I think people just get sick of hearing about him. I'm sure they want to create a villan as much as a hero, but as a purist, I'd rather see good bowling than the WWE in bowling shoes- I think it's ridiculous as the blue oil on the lanes.

Belmo is dialed in right NOW. Will he be like this in 3 years? I doubt it. Things ebb and flow. He won't have a Norm Duke-length career, I don't think his body will hold up, at least as a 2-handed chucker. The PBA desperately needs something to push. Belmo is their idea of Tiger Woods right now. But, they're trying too hard to make everyone think he's the best thing since an axis hole. Speaking of those, Pete Weber IS an axis hole. :)

I don't really even recognize the game now compared to 1990. It's completely different.

[Aslan]

Yeah. The younger folks and folks newer to the sport think that because Belmo is on top of the world…that he's the greatest EVER. They either forget or don't know that other bowlers have had the same early success and received the same accolades. Jason Couch, Chris Barnes, Rhino Page, Bill O'Neil, etc… Belmo is nothing 'new'…he's just new in a different way. Kinda like how my little cousin thought N'Sync was the greatest band ever…because they didn't understand that N'Sync was simply preceded by The Backstreet Boys….and followed by One Direction.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Yeah. The younger folks and folks newer to the sport think that because Belmo is on top of the world…that he's the greatest EVER. They either forget or don't know that other bowlers have had the same early success and received the same accolades. Jason Couch, Chris Barnes, Rhino Page, Bill O'Neil, etc… Belmo is nothing 'new'…he's just new in a different way. Kinda like how my little cousin thought N'Sync was the greatest band ever…because they didn't understand that N'Sync was simply preceded by The Backstreet Boys….and followed by One Direction.

That is quite possibly the most disturbing analogy in history.

[NewToBowling]

Yeah. The younger folks and folks newer to the sport think that because Belmo is on top of the world…that he's the greatest EVER. They either forget or don't know that other bowlers have had the same early success and received the same accolades. Jason Couch, Chris Barnes, Rhino Page, Bill O'Neil, etc… Belmo is nothing 'new'…he's just new in a different way. Kinda like how my little cousin thought N'Sync was the greatest band ever…because they didn't understand that N'Sync was simply preceded by The Backstreet Boys….and followed by One Direction.

Or Belmo could end up being like PDW and WRW and have staying power. Let's just wait and see

No need to crown or dismiss him yet. The one thing we know is right NOW he is top of the world. But 1,2,5 years down the road no one knows.

[bubba809]

That is quite possibly the most disturbing analogy in history.


Stick around......He got hundreds of 'em!

[Hobbit]

My take here, as a 2 hander, and an Aussie!!... In few words, the rivalry between Rash and Belmo, love it, I want to see passion and grudge matches, who doesn't!!

Rash's overall behavior in general, rather surly, and feral.. Remember some years ago, he was winning a PBA event against the local guy.. Rash yelled out "who's your hometown hero now"..Classless!!:(
Now Belmo, lots of posturing, and showmanship, questionable sportsmanship at times, but hey, the bloke can seriously roll!! period! I don't have to love the guy, but totally respect his bowling...

In summary, both elite bowlers, both have dubious laneside behavior...

I still always cheer for Parker though!!

[Aslan]

I'm not a Sean Rash fan either. I think he comes off as a spoiled brat that thinks the sport owes him something and he should win every time. Yet when was the last time I remember him actually winning anything? It's been awhile.

Now, will my opinion of him change after I bowl in a clinic with him in early June? Probably. But maybe not. We'll see.

And I don't mind the passion the game has now…and I'd love to see some rivalry between brands or even players that don't like each other. I just worry that too much of it is staged. PDW always sort of hints to that when people criticize his antics…hinting that he's a different person when you meet him than the "persona" you see on TV.

Alot of Belmo hate is just hating the really good guy. It happens in every sport, in music, entertainment, etc… Eventually people get sick of "the guy" and there's a backlash. Bowling has pushed Belmo SO HARD on everyone that some people react with "ughh…do I have to hear his name at EVERY event…win or lose?" And thats not Belmo's fault…can't fault a guy for being good.

I remember yesterday, trying to get caught up in my PBAExtra archived stuff…and I saw Belmo make a shot and just instinctively said out loud, "Damn that was a good shot!" I then stopped myself and realized I was praising Belmo…but THAT is how I feel about Belmo. An exceptional and under-rated (if you can believe that) talent…and everyone that bowls against him agrees…but his antics with water bottles and towels and just idiotic stuff like that make the "old guard" like me pause and think, "Ya know what…all the talent in the World doesn't mean you can act in a classless way." I was annoyed watching Kyle Troup bowl as well…after a bad shot he'd be banging on the equipment…throwing a mini-fit….wearing his outlandishly loud apparel…just another young guy starting to make his rounds in the PBA who thinks he's the next big thing…and it's annoying.

And they haven't REALLY done anything yet….even Belmo. Norm Duke is the top seed in the Badger stepladder if I remember correctly. Parker Bohn has been the hottest bowler in the first part of the year. And WRW I think made the Badger stepladder as well. The old guard, hall of famers, are not just quietly riding off into the sunset. And every title they add…that inches them closer to 40, 45, 50 titles…makes talented guys like a Chris Barnes or a Belmonte that much less relevant…because bowlers are judged by titles…not gimics…not how hot they are at any given time. And to get that respect and consideration as "the best"…eventually a guy like Belmo needs to match the titles of a Duke, Weber, WRW, Anthony…too many good bowlers…hall of famers…that aren't in the "best ever" conversation because they simply couldn't get that 20th title.

[NewToBowling]

And they haven't REALLY done anything yet….even Belmo. Norm Duke is the top seed in the Badger stepladder if I remember correctly. Parker Bohn has been the hottest bowler in the first part of the year. And WRW I think made the Badger stepladder as well. The old guard, hall of famers, are not just quietly riding off into the sunset. And every title they add…that inches them closer to 40, 45, 50 titles…makes talented guys like a Chris Barnes or a Belmonte that much less relevant…because bowlers are judged by titles…not gimics…not how hot they are at any given time. And to get that respect and consideration as "the best"…eventually a guy like Belmo needs to match the titles of a Duke, Weber, WRW, Anthony…too many good bowlers…hall of famers…that aren't in the "best ever" conversation because they simply couldn't get that 20th title.

Give it time (straight from PBA.com):

Belmo = 7 years/12 titles = 1.7 titles a year (5 Majors)
WRW = 35 years/47 titles = 1.34 titles a year (8 Majors)
Duke = 33 years/38 titles = 1.15 titles a year (7 Majors)
Barnes = 17 years/18 titles = 1.06 titles a year (3 Majors)
Bohn = 31 years/34 titles = 1.1 titles a year (2 Majors)
PDW = 36 years/37 titles = 1.03 titles a year (10 Majors)
Rash = 10 years/8 titles = 0.8 titles a year (2 Majors)

I say Belmo is on track to be the greatest. We'll just have to come back in 10 years or more to see if his success is sustainable

[NewToBowling]

Left out Earl Anthony. Amazing success in short amount of time = 43 titles in 13 years (1970-1983) Source: Wikipedia.

[Amyers]

I have no doubt that Belmo is amazingly talented at what he does. My wife loves him. I'm just not a fan of the two handed style never will be. I'm not a hater but I just don't enjoy it much and think it gives an unfair advantage. I will give him props if he can keep going at anywhere close to this pace he will be a hall of famer and maybe the best ever unfortunately he plays in an era where the best bowlers probably aren't even on the tour. Their is a reason why Bohn, Duke, WRW, and PDW are still competitive at their age and it's not that's how great they are it's how little new talent their is.

[Davidjr113]

And Mark Roth, 14 titles in just two years, 1978/79

[Aslan]

Give it time (straight from PBA.com):

Belmo = 7 years/12 titles = 1.7 titles a year (5 Majors)
WRW = 35 years/47 titles = 1.34 titles a year (8 Majors)
Duke = 33 years/38 titles = 1.15 titles a year (7 Majors)
Barnes = 17 years/18 titles = 1.06 titles a year (3 Majors)
Bohn = 31 years/34 titles = 1.1 titles a year (2 Majors)
PDW = 36 years/37 titles = 1.03 titles a year (10 Majors)
Rash = 10 years/8 titles = 0.8 titles a year (2 Majors)

I say Belmo is on track to be the greatest. We'll just have to come back in 10 years or more to see if his success is sustainable

Everyone points to the "rate" because the simple math of it is...Rash + Belmo equals 2 titles more than Chris Barnes has by himself...and half the titles WRW and Earl Anthony possess individually (there about).

I agree Belmo has a shot at greatness and the Majors to back it up. But there's bowlers with 40 titles on that list. At 1.7 (we'll even round it to 2) per year...for the remaining 28 years...that's 56 + his 12...that's 68. HOWEVER...Belmo is already 31. That means he has more like 25 years left. So that brings the number to 62. But here's the rub...the 2-handed style is notoriously bad on the back. Both he and Osku have had setbacks related to back injuries. Can Belmo throw that style for 25 more years? Is the wear and tear on the back any more of a hinderance than the conventional style and it's wear and tear on shoulders/elbows/knees??? I don't know. But we'll see.

But as of TODAY...in REALITY...WRW has 47 titles and Earl Anthony has 43. They are generally considered the two best bowlers to ever roll a ball. Duke could catch him...PDW could catch em...maybe....Parker could catch em. But barring unforeseen circumstances...and given Earl's life was cut a bit short...and Mark Roth had serious health issues later in his career...WRW is not going to be easy to pass. I mean, Parker has been steamrolling the PBA50 this season...PDW also has been solid each outing...and both Duke and WRW just made a PBA Tour stepladder final. These guys are going to have to actually retire if Barnes, Mika, Jones, O'Neill, Rash, Tackett, and Belmo are going to seriously challenge them.

I'm really hoping I get to meet WRW and Parker Bohn at one of the two Pro-Ams I'm participating in next weekend. It'd be cool to meet any of the PBA50 guys really and I'm looking forward to it (but also nervous that I'll suck terribly)...but shaking WRW's hand...knowing that I'm shaking the hand of the greatest bowler to ever live...THAT would be a really cool thing. That picture would be framed and hanging prominently in my apartment. Not in a creepy shrine way...but in a very prominent way like an old Catholic couple might have a picture of the pope hanging in their house.

Too bad classygranny wasn't still in the OC (and her husband didn't mysteriously hate me for some reason)...because if she was around the first weekend in June and then the first part of that following week...she could have been in two Pro-Ams AND got in a clinic with Sean Rash and Missy Parkin. The clinic with Rash/Parkin costs less than or the same as a lesson with Mark. AND she coulda been in the audience for the PBA West Regional Open June 5th-7th. I unfortunately can't make every day of that event because my daughter has a horse show and I'm moving that weekend...but I'm doing both Pro Ams!! I may be the worst bowler to EVER bowl in a pro-am...but I'm doing it anyways!! Ya only live once!

[Aslan]

Left out Earl Anthony. Amazing success in short amount of time = 43 titles in 13 years (1970-1983) Source: Wikipedia.
Absolutely. And it's a shame he gets overlooked by modern bowlers. Those of us that watched the PBA way back when...Earl the Pearl was about as dominant a bowler as anyone had ever seen.


And Mark Roth, 14 titles in just two years, 1978/79
And the only person Earl Anthony ever admitted was better than he was...Mark Roth. And if we're factoring in how they actually changed the entire game...Roth wins. The cranker, high rev, thumbless, tear the cover off the ball type of pre-modern bowling was all but invented by Mark Roth. And for that brief time before injury...he was a freight train....unstoppable. Probably the closest thing to a modern day Belmo. Commentators said the same thing about him that they say about Belmo...almost word for word...things like, "He does things with the ball that make him just so hard to beat."

[classygranny]

Too bad classygranny wasn't still in the OC (and her husband didn't mysteriously hate me for some reason)...because if she was around the first weekend in June and then the first part of that following week...she could have been in two Pro-Ams AND got in a clinic with Sean Rash and Missy Parkin. The clinic with Rash/Parkin costs less than or the same as a lesson with Mark. AND she coulda been in the audience for the PBA West Regional Open June 5th-7th. I unfortunately can't make every day of that event because my daughter has a horse show and I'm moving that weekend...but I'm doing both Pro Ams!! I may be the worst bowler to EVER bowl in a pro-am...but I'm doing it anyways!! Ya only live once!

That's ok...I really enjoyed working with Mark. I'm not much of a Rash/Parkin fan. We missed the Pro-Am that was here because we were in Calif...missed Calif because we came home.

And my husband doesn't mysteriously hate you...he knows nothing about you - or this forum. I have to have something to escape too after work, house, everyday issues that is just mine and mine alone...so he has no idea what goes on on this forum, and hopefully, never will.

And it was really me...I use the San Clemente vacation to sit on the balcony, watch the surfers, walk the pier, walk the beach, read and overall do nothing. The bowling lesson was a new adventure and the only place we went other than to the grocery store and used book store, and to have dinner with his high school buddy at the pier. Otherwise this vacation is only for nothing, no going places, no meeting people, no activities!

Enjoy the Pro-Am and bowl well!

[jlwonderley]

if two handed is so much easier and superior than how come there aren't more out there. Why do people constantly look down upon people who don't bowl the "traditional" way. Different strokes for different folks.

The only reason most people don't like Belmonte is they know he is better then them and beating the game with a different approach

I don't know, I've seen quite a few two-handers amongst the the younger generation. There's tons of them in high school and college bowling now. Also, don't remember which one but a recent telecast I saw two two-handers in (not belmo or osku). Considering they are still a relatively small percentage of bowlers, I feel like they've been on TV more than their share lately. Kind of like when of a small number of left-handers, many of them make it to TV.

I can bowl two-handed from much further left than I'd ever be able to normally, with much more hook. It's easier it that regard (producing revs and speed) and I tend to get better pin carry. I'm not consistent enough with it though, so I don't use it often.


Actually, I find it easier to throw a reverse hook using two hands than a normal hook with two hands for some reason...? Sometimes I do that for fun when I'm just playing around and can't get a good line with my normal bowling! I get that fresh oil and much easier strikes

[Maine Man]

Give it time (straight from PBA.com):

Belmo = 7 years/12 titles = 1.7 titles a year (5 Majors)
WRW = 35 years/47 titles = 1.34 titles a year (8 Majors)
Duke = 33 years/38 titles = 1.15 titles a year (7 Majors)
Barnes = 17 years/18 titles = 1.06 titles a year (3 Majors)
Bohn = 31 years/34 titles = 1.1 titles a year (2 Majors)
PDW = 36 years/37 titles = 1.03 titles a year (10 Majors)
Rash = 10 years/8 titles = 0.8 titles a year (2 Majors)

I say Belmo is on track to be the greatest. We'll just have to come back in 10 years or more to see if his success is sustainable

Earl Anthony = 13 years / 43 titles = 3.3 titles per year (10 majors)

Earl's success rate will almost never be duplicated, especially with the truncated schedule the PBA has, with many fewer events. Earl was DOMINANT.

[Aslan]

Yeah, the interesting thing to watch will be that 47 title number. Will WRW reach 50? Can anyone ever even eclipse 47? Norm and Pete are still there...Parker is still there. But Barnes has fallen off his pace and Mika has retired. And while Belmo had a great year or so...he's still well, well behind. He'd have to continue his pace for another 20 years...and the 2-handed style is only going to shorten his career (back issues), not lengthen it.

So, while people accuse me of being a "2-handed hater"...I can't recognize Belmo as the "best" bowler when it's doubtful he'll even reach the top 5 in terms of titles by the time he retires and heads to the PBA50. There just aren't enough titles each year and the bowling ball technology is actually working AGAINST high rev players by allowing lower rev players to increase their angles.

Mark Roth is a great example. Earl even admitted that he thought Roth might eclipse him because at the time Roth was doing things with a bowling ball that few others could do. But that style...led to health issues...and pretty soon, guys could get similar movement with less revs due to ball technology. I see the same fate for guys like Belmo and Troup. When they are "on", they are almost impossible to beat. But their windows are much smaller than traditional bowlers and there are a lot less titles to go around.