Intermediate Technique Question: Ball distance from slide foot during slide?

[Aslan]

If we look at the starting stance; our left foot is on a certain board (or you're doing it wrong). Your "target" should also be a certain board (unless you're a breakpoint or area bowler).

Originally, early in my development, I would keep track of where my target (generally at the arrows) is relative to my slide foot and the distance between the 2 was approximately 10 boards or 15".

Lately, one of the biggest, most glaring differences I've seen is that as I continue to keep track of that metric…the number has dropped. The target is now 3-5 boards right of the slide foot.

So the question is related to the following:

1) What is YOUR number?
2) Is there an ideal number?
3) What are the guesses/opinions/insights into why my number has been shrinking and shrinking? Is it a bad thing because it means I'm throwing straight at the target and losing angle? Or is it a good thing because it means the ball is closer to the slide foot at the bottom of the swing?

Thanks

[bowl1820]

If we look at the starting stance; our left foot is on a certain board (or you're doing it wrong). Your "target" should also be a certain board (unless you're a breakpoint or area bowler).

Originally, early in my development, I would keep track of where my target (generally at the arrows) is relative to my slide foot and the distance between the 2 was approximately 10 boards or 15".

Lately, one of the biggest, most glaring differences I've seen is that as I continue to keep track of that metric…the number has dropped. The target is now 3-5 boards right of the slide foot.

So the question is related to the following:

1) What is YOUR number?
2) Is there an ideal number?
3) What are the guesses/opinions/insights into why my number has been shrinking and shrinking? Is it a bad thing because it means I'm throwing straight at the target and losing angle? Or is it a good thing because it means the ball is closer to the slide foot at the bottom of the swing?

Thanks
Counting the number of boards from your slide foot to your target is not the accurate way to describe the line from the foul line to your target.

What you want is called "The Laydown point" to determine it, you kneel on the approach and place your slide foot forward, lean forward with your bowling arm straight down across from your slide foot (Like your making a shot) you then Count the number of boards from the inside edge of the slide foot to the board where the middle finger is pointing at. Thats your Laydown point.

http://s5.postimg.org/o95lplwxz/laydownpoint.gif

1- My laydown point is about 6 boards over, so when I'm standing on 20 I'm sitting the ball down on about 14-15 at the foul line.

2- Okay Rob says about 5"-6" below we can go with that for a "ideal" number, But most people are not going to be "ideal" in their deliveries and IMO I think there will be some variation do to people physiques, maybe not a lot but some.

3- The fact that your "number is shrinking and given the way you measured it" just says your slide foot is getting closer to the board your target is on. It doesn't really indicate if your laydown point is getting closer to your ankle.

Given if your actual laydown point isn't changing and just your slide foot has gotten closer to the board your target is on (10 boards down to 3-5). Your basically rolling the ball straighter down the lane.

[RobLV1]

If you are walking straight and sliding into the same board that where you are starting, your laydown point should be no more than 5"-6" to the right of your slide foot. If it is more than that, you are either not keeping your arm behind the ball, or there is a problem with your footwork that is preventing you from clearing your right hip on your fourth step.

[J Anderson]

If we look at the starting stance; our left foot is on a certain board (or you're doing it wrong).


Unless you're left-handed, in which case you should be setting up based on the position of your right foot.

[Mike White]

If we look at the starting stance; our left foot is on a certain board (or you're doing it wrong). Your "target" should also be a certain board (unless you're a breakpoint or area bowler).

Originally, early in my development, I would keep track of where my target (generally at the arrows) is relative to my slide foot and the distance between the 2 was approximately 10 boards or 15".

Lately, one of the biggest, most glaring differences I've seen is that as I continue to keep track of that metric…the number has dropped. The target is now 3-5 boards right of the slide foot.

So the question is related to the following:

1) What is YOUR number?
2) Is there an ideal number?
3) What are the guesses/opinions/insights into why my number has been shrinking and shrinking? Is it a bad thing because it means I'm throwing straight at the target and losing angle? Or is it a good thing because it means the ball is closer to the slide foot at the bottom of the swing?

Thanks

I think this start and slide on the same board idea is crap.

Lets take for example, you want to go through the arrows (15 feet) at the 15th board, and by 45 feet, you want the ball to reach the 7 board.

At that point the ball will change directions and head back towards the pocket.

The question is, assuming the ball follows a straight path until it reaches 45 feet, where should we be laying down the ball, and where should we be starting on the approach.

To make the math simpler, lets assume we use the whole 15 feet of the approach.

Work from the break point backwards to the start of the approach.

For the ball to reach the 7 board at 45 feet, while also passing over the 15th board at 15 feet, we can calculate that the ball will cross to the right 4 boards every 15 feet.

That would indicate that the laydown point at the foul line should be the 19th board, and at the beginning of the approach, the ball should be located over the 23rd board.

If we have a 6 board offset between the center of the ball, and our slide foot, we should be sliding at the 25th board.

And likewise we should be starting the approach with our sliding foot on the 29th board.

That would keep the path of the ball straight through the arm swing, and we walk towards our target.

Since we want to slide on the 25th board, if we started on the 25th board, and walked parallel to the boards, the natural release would throw the ball straight up the 19th board, not across the 15, and out to the 7.

The only way to generate that angle out, while walking parallel to the boards, is to bring the ball behind our back.

If you move even deeper, there simply isn't anywhere to stand and throw the ball straight from start to finish, so it all becomes a form of art.

Good art takes lots of practice, and less science.

Good art doesn't have things like must walk parallel as it's criteria.

[Amyers]

I think this start and slide on the same board idea is crap.

Lets take for example, you want to go through the arrows (15 feet) at the 15th board, and by 45 feet, you want the ball to reach the 7 board.

At that point the ball will change directions and head back towards the pocket.

The question is, assuming the ball follows a straight path until it reaches 45 feet, where should we be laying down the ball, and where should we be starting on the approach.

To make the math simpler, lets assume we use the whole 15 feet of the approach.

Work from the break point backwards to the start of the approach.

For the ball to reach the 7 board at 45 feet, while also passing over the 15th board at 15 feet, we can calculate that the ball will cross to the right 4 boards every 15 feet.

That would indicate that the laydown point at the foul line should be the 19th board, and at the beginning of the approach, the ball should be located over the 23rd board.

If we have a 6 board offset between the center of the ball, and our slide foot, we should be sliding at the 25th board.

And likewise we should be starting the approach with our sliding foot on the 29th board.

That would keep the path of the ball straight through the arm swing, and we walk towards our target.

Since we want to slide on the 25th board, if we started on the 25th board, and walked parallel to the boards, the natural release would throw the ball straight up the 19th board, not across the 15, and out to the 7.

The only way to generate that angle out, while walking parallel to the boards, is to bring the ball behind our back.

If you move even deeper, there simply isn't anywhere to stand and throw the ball straight from start to finish, so it all becomes a form of art.

Good art takes lots of practice, and less science.

Good art doesn't have things like must walk parallel as it's criteria.

This makes some sense to me but isn't part of what's creating the angle the opening of the hips and shoulders?

[Aslan]

I like the "breakpoint", more modern bowling type of idea as much as the next guy versus the 80s/90s "up and in" approach. But throwing towards the breakpoint which is generally 7-9 boards (rightys) at about 41-49ft depending on the pattern...requires an angular motion of the ball. And while there "should" be dry area there...it still requires an above average rev rate and modern bowling ball to make that angular motion.

I have not seen many patterns where even 2013 technology with a 250rpm rev rate...where the ball skids to that break point and then makes an angular motion to the pocket. If my bowling ball isn't at least "trying to hook" by about 35ft...you can sand a spot at 41-49ft and my ball still ain't making that turn.

Either you have a backwards "C" shot with a big arc into the pocket...or you have an "L"-shaped shot that hits a breakpoint and changes direction. I don't have an "L"-shaped shot...and in two years haven't been able to improve my rev rate or lower my speed enough to create that type of shot. If my left foot gets further left than about 3.5 boards...I'm not hitting the headpin...unless I throw a straight shot at the pocket and just hope it moves a "little" before it hits the pocket...and "hope" that at least some of the shots carry.

[Aslan]

This makes some sense to me but isn't part of what's creating the angle the opening of the hips and shoulders?

The "angle", from my understanding, is created by the cover/finsish of the ball and how aggressively it reacts with the friction on the lane. Doesn't matter what your hips and shoulders do if you're throwing a plastic ball...there's not going to be angle. Am I wrong? <----I ask with 75% certainty Rob will say "yes" and 99% certainty that Mike will say "yes"....and a 89% certainty Mike and Rob will disagree regarding how I'm wrong. :o

[Amyers]

The "angle", from my understanding, is created by the cover/finsish of the ball and how aggressively it reacts with the friction on the lane. Doesn't matter what your hips and shoulders do if you're throwing a plastic ball...there's not going to be angle. Am I wrong? <----I ask with 75% certainty Rob will say "yes" and 99% certainty that Mike will say "yes"....and a 89% certainty Mike and Rob will disagree regarding how I'm wrong. :o

You misunderstood me I was referring to the ball traveling to the right (for a right handed bowler) not the hook back to the pocket. The ball has nothing really to do with at what angle the ball moves to the right

[fortheloveofbowling]

I think this start and slide on the same board idea is crap.

Lets take for example, you want to go through the arrows (15 feet) at the 15th board, and by 45 feet, you want the ball to reach the 7 board.

At that point the ball will change directions and head back towards the pocket.

The question is, assuming the ball follows a straight path until it reaches 45 feet, where should we be laying down the ball, and where should we be starting on the approach.

To make the math simpler, lets assume we use the whole 15 feet of the approach.

Work from the break point backwards to the start of the approach.

For the ball to reach the 7 board at 45 feet, while also passing over the 15th board at 15 feet, we can calculate that the ball will cross to the right 4 boards every 15 feet.

That would indicate that the laydown point at the foul line should be the 19th board, and at the beginning of the approach, the ball should be located over the 23rd board.

If we have a 6 board offset between the center of the ball, and our slide foot, we should be sliding at the 25th board.

And likewise we should be starting the approach with our sliding foot on the 29th board.

That would keep the path of the ball straight through the arm swing, and we walk towards our target.

Since we want to slide on the 25th board, if we started on the 25th board, and walked parallel to the boards, the natural release would throw the ball straight up the 19th board, not across the 15, and out to the 7.

The only way to generate that angle out, while walking parallel to the boards, is to bring the ball behind our back.

If you move even deeper, there simply isn't anywhere to stand and throw the ball straight from start to finish, so it all becomes a form of art.

Good art takes lots of practice, and less science.

Good art doesn't have things like must walk parallel as it's criteria.

If you want to bowl well on house patterns today this is exactly how you have to look at the lane. Like mike said, work from the break point backwards. To create the desired angle to get to the pocket and then find carry adjust your launch angles at that point. This is a way of looking at the lane i or most people rarely did 25-30 years ago. Find the boards down lane and then figure out the path to get there that gets the best results. This is standard in todays game on most patterns for a majority of both styles and overall levels of bowlers. If you are a high rev player or more of a stroker it does not matter. Play the lane back to front and work different angles to your break point. Good post Mike.

[fortheloveofbowling]

You misunderstood me I was referring to the ball traveling to the right (for a right handed bowler) not the hook back to the pocket. The ball has nothing really to do with at what angle the ball moves to the right

This is true for the most part but certain balls will have what some refer to as more squirt out of your hand. For instance, my storm iq equipment has a tendency to do this more often than my 900 global break and break down. It can give you the impression that you have missed with your initial angle but in reality it is the weight block coupled with your release that has caused the ball to squirt a little to your right for a right hander or vice versa. Not a problem really and can be very helpful, it just comes down to knowing your equipment as well as your game.

[zdawg]

This makes some sense to me but isn't part of what's creating the angle the opening of the hips and shoulders?

Good question, hopefully somebody answers it :confused:

It would be interesting to see a camera on a lot of the big PBA power players footwork, I'd be very interested to see what board their feet start on, and what board they stop.

[RobLV1]

Good question, hopefully somebody answers it :confused:

It would be interesting to see a camera on a lot of the big PBA power players footwork, I'd be very interested to see what board their feet start on, and what board they stop.

It is entirely creating angle with the hips and shoulders. I routinely bowl league with several PBA national title holders. Without exception, each of them slides into the same board where they started. The problem with accepting that drifting right is O.K. is that it creates the tendency to come over the top to help to get the ball back. That's not to say that some bowlers cannot do it. They can. Most bowlers cannot. The concept of walking straight and creating angle with the hips and shoulders is anything but crap for most bowlers.

[Mike White]

This makes some sense to me but isn't part of what's creating the angle the opening of the hips and shoulders?

Open the hips and shoulders relative to what?

If you want to play a line parallel to the boards, would you square up your hips, and shoulders parallel to the intended path of the ball which is parallel boards.

If you want to cross boards to the right instead, again you square up your hips, and shoulders parallel to the intended path of the ball, which is open relative to the boards.

If you want to pick up a 7 pin, you walk right to left, and your hips, and shoulders are parallel to the intended path of the ball, which is closed relative to the boards.

In each case, you are walking in a straight line, just not necessarily parallel to the boards on the approach.

[Amyers]

Well I decided to work on this last night. My normal setup is way outside the normal discussed here. I'm typically lining up between 30-35 targeting between 13-17 I do drift about 3 boards right. I've known for a while that this wasn't correct but I really haven't been able to change it in the past. I've been working on trying more of a balance beam step on the 2nd and 4th steps and a cross over on the last step for about a month now before that I was just walking normally to the line. I was hoping that with the new approach that this would work better for me than it has in the past. Before when I've attempted to do this it has resulted in one of two outcomes I end up pitching the ball down 7-10 or pulling the ball across my body neither of which worked well.

Last night I started out on 26 sliding on 23 laying the ball down on about 18 crossing the arrow at 15-16 went out to about 12 and made a very little turn into the pocket. I threw this line just to get comfortable the first game finished with a 208. I was amazed that I could get this to work even this well even though I wanted more angle to get the ball out to at least 10 I was amazed that it was working this well.

In the 2nd game I decide to try and open the angle up a little more and see how I did it didn't go well I would end up with one that was what I wanted one that went out to 5 which is DOA in this house and one that went straight down the middle and hit the head pin dead on. Needless to say I tried this for a game and a half and I ended up with a 158 and a 175 for my efforts. If I'm trying to physically control that angle by thinking about it isn't going to work for me at least at this point.

Towards the end of the 3rd game I decided that wasn't going to work and to try moving my feet. In the past when I've done this I've moved left with my feet and I end up back where I started originally and end of experiment. I decided to try moving just a little farther right with my feet so I moved my feet to 24 and was sliding at about 21-22. I'm not sure where the laydown was my video person (wife) had left but I was still crossing the 15-16 area every shot but now the ball was consistently making it out to 9-10-11 area with a nice small move back to the pocket and the result was this game.

http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/a_myers2002/248%203-17-15_zpswwvijb2j.jpg

I'm not sure why moving farther right created more angle but it worked. For what is probably the best game I ever bowled. I've had higher scores but all of my shots were right in the pocket only left two 10 pins and a 8 pin. This may seem an unusual line but this house is old wood lanes outside of ten is dry as all get out and my ball just goes nuts. so you have to play more up the middle which is pretty heavily oiled.