Does Your Team Talk?

[RobLV1]

This winter season has really been an eye-opening experience for me in terms of team bowling. For the past few years I have bowled in senior leagues, many of them high average. This year I bowled with a team in an open "almost scratch" league where there are a lot of well known bowlers, including Jake Peters, David Haynes, Johnny Pegraglia Jr., Steve Vallenueva, and Andrew Graff. I am bowling with a former Open Championship all-events winner, a barely senior bowler who averages over 230, and another bowler like myself, for whom this is a new experience. One of the biggest differences that I see between this and the high average senior leagues in which I have bowled, is the amount of communication between players. We talk about our ball reaction. We talk about the ball reaction of the players on the other team. We talk about the difference between the lanes, and how each is transitioning. Does your team talk to each other, or do you feel like you are on your own when it comes to ball choices and how you play the lanes?

[fortheloveofbowling]

My team always talk about the lanes and usually from practice on. Not every frame or even game but when someone has an idea or a teammate needs help sure. Also, i might even discuss and even try to help someone i'm bowling against at certain times. I never want to see anyone just struggle if they really care about their game and consider that just good sportsmanship. Now am i going to recommend a move i know a guy needs to make in the 10th if he needs a double to beat us? No way. I think to have an effective team you have a comfort level with your players and be able to have an open dialogue about lane play.

[Hampe]

The only person around here I do this with is my doubles partner. Sometimes we'll even come watch the other play in a singles event if one qualified and the other didn't, just to have a second opinion and second set of eyes.

But my normal teammates are pretty standard house-league bowlers and don't think about this kind of stuff (and aren't necessarily interested in hearing about it either).

[Tony]

On the league I'm in there generally is some talk about lane conditions, and transition through the night and also some discussion on adjustments, we are fortunate to have some higher level bowlers who are willing to do a little coaching for players that want and ask for it.

[bowl1820]

We talk about our ball reaction. We talk about the ball reaction of the players on the other team. We talk about the difference between the lanes, and how each is transitioning. Does your team talk to each other, or do you feel like you are on your own when it comes to ball choices and how you play the lanes?

No my team doesn't have that type of conversation.

I feel safe saying the average league team (and many tournament teams) don't have those type of conversations, Outside of the basic "The lanes sure are oily(or dry) tonight?" and "what am I doing wrong?".

While many may benefit from that type of conversation, most don't have it.

[Amyers]

No my team doesn't wish we had more of that. I don't think there really is much of that in the entire house that I do most of my bowling at trying a couple of new houses this summer so maybe a different answer later we will see.

[jab5325]

Our conversation centered around ball reaction and other bowlers......but there was a great deal of conversation about life in general.

That said, the bowling-related conversations we had weren't very in-depth, certainly not to RobLV1's level ;)

[vdubtx]

On Tuesdays we talk about the lanes and how balls react but also typically complaining about the AMAZING carry everyone else has. :cool:

One team mate in particular likes to over analyze each and every shot and that gets him in to trouble reading into a bad shot when it's him that was the issue and not the ball or the lanes. He is like a spray can sometimes when he is up there. We tell him jokingly that he has a 2 board area out there and they both have arrows, LOL.

Thursdays my team are all lower average bowlers and we like to eat and have fun just shooting the ... having nice conversation. :D

[Mark O]

No my team doesn't have that type of conversation.

I feel safe saying the average league team (and many tournament teams) don't have those type of conversations, Outside of the basic "The lanes sure are oily(or dry) tonight?" and "what am I doing wrong?".

While many may benefit from that type of conversation, most don't have it.

THIS. I would like to have that kind of conversation but my teammates are mostly lower average bowlers that come to throw the ball and have a good time. Plus they all have deliveries that are unorthodox so the ball reaction that their seeing is very different from the ball reaction I'm going to see. The only two that really talk in depth about lane play are me(200 avg) and our anchor (210 avg). We have a similar ball motion and play around the same area so we can adjust off of each other but we only primarily have conversations if one of us seems really lost.

[Mike White]

Most of the conversations we have are closer to a psychiatric session.

Those guys worry about crap that simply doesn't need worrying about.

In my senior league most of the conversation revolves around what body part is hurting the most.

[RobLV1]

Interesting comments. Let me clarify a couple of things. First, while I have tried to initiate conversations about ball reactions in other leagues, like you, I find that most bowlers either aren't interested, or don't understand it. I did not initiate the conversation on my Tuesday night league. It was already taking place between the two returning bowlers from last year. The thing that I find fascinating about it is that the conversations are very helpful to all of us despite the fact that we use four distinctly different styles. I am a senior low/med rev tweener with a ball speed of around 16.5 mph. I usually end up starting around 11-12 board and moving left from their. I average 196 in this league. Generally my best scores come in the first and second games, dropping in the third game when I run into a lot of traffic on my left. I often have to make 3-5 board moves to find something, and I'm working at getting better at doing it more quickly. Our second bowler does not have a lot of experience in competitive bowling recently, having bowled mainly in recreational house leagues. He is in his late thirties, and throws with a ton of revs. He came into the league with a 204 average, and is currently around 215, thanks mainly to his increased ball knowledge and his ability to go straighter than he has in the past. Despite his improvement in this area, he still struggles the most during the first and second games, and is in his wheelhouse during the third game when the lanes have opened up.

Bowler number three averages a little over 225. He is 48 years old and has an Eagle on his mantle which he won by winning the all-events title at nationals in the early ninties. After leaving bowling for over ten years, he came back, and I was able to help him to adapt to changes in the modern game. He has since learned to drill balls, and drills all of my equipment for me, as well as coaching me for the past couple of years. He uses a lot of revs and medium/high ball speed. He is by far the most adaptable player on our team, able to play fairly straight on the fresh, and can loft the left gutter gap when he needs to. His high games are usually the first and the third, as he often has to make huge jumps left over other players when the lanes start to dry up in the second game. Bowler number four is our anchor man, averaging just over 230. He is in his early fifties, and uses a lot of ball speed and very little hook to demolish the pins. His nickname is "Arrow" as his most effect adjustment is to throw it harder and straighter. I think I saw him get into the third arrow one time, but seeing him much left of twelve is unusual.

As you can see, our styles couldn't be much more varied, and yet the conversations that we have about the changes going on during bowling from practice where the usual topic is as simple as, "I've got the left lane tighter," to the third game when I might hear, "I moved three and two on the left lane, and it still wasn't enough," are extremely helpful. I just thought I'd share this with you, as I have found it to be invaluable this year.

[Aslan]

Does your team talk to each other, or do you feel like you are on your own when it comes to ball choices and how you play the lanes?

:eek: HA!

Yeah right. On my Tuesday team if I start saying anything about ball reaction to anything technical to my teammates they start mocking me for being such a bowling nerd. They think my 6-ball arsenal and note taking and score tracking and the fact that I have a coach is borderline Rainman territory. Just the fact that I routinly practice has led to some snickers and mocking.

And on Wednesday...the only communicatio is from our older player's arse because that dude has some serious bowel issues. Last night there was actually more communication than usual because our anchor was struggling to he asked me to watch his ball reaction. But he throws a 14lb thumbless left-handed so I don't even know what I'm looking at. Our 93 average beginner I sometimes give pointers to...but it's a fine line...kinda like golf. I don't like giving help if I'm not asked specifically. The older guy doesn't know this rule and is constantly trying to give her tips (which kinda annoys her). And the older guy...like most older guys...won't listen to anyone. He brings 10 balls with him yet most of them are all big hook monsters...which means if the lanes break down at ALL...he starts missing left due to his 10mph ball speed. So instead of opening up the lane a little....he just switches to another super strong ball and gets the same result.

I think it's harder to crosstalk when:
A) You have no real experts or even high level bowlers.
B) You have massively different styles on the team.

I am the only one on my Tuesday team that is a moderate speed, RH, stroker. The others are a lefty, a speed dominant righty, a high loft (15-20ft) plastic ball thrower, and an older guy throwing a 1980s ball with a back-up release. On Wednesdays I'm also the only moderate speed, RH, stroker. The others are a house ball throwing up the middle lady, a low speed RH lady with knee problems, a low speed RH stroker, and a thumbless throwing higher speed lefty. I'm the only one on either team throwing 16lbs. And other than the Slingshot, I've never seen anyone throw any of the balls I currently throw.

It would be great being on Rob's All-Star team. Hell, if traffic between LA and Vegas wasn't the God awful nightmare it is...I'd be tempted to join a team like that for the free coaching alone. But on a team on numbnuts and bowlers that have virtually no knowledge of the game...where believe it or not...I am by FAR the most knowledgeable about bowling and bowling balls (MWhite and Rob both scared simultaneously with that thought)...there's nobody to help me. Our Tuesday anchor has skill and was competitive in high school, but even with his skill...he refuses to buy a plastic spare ball and misses the single 7-pin almost as often as the older woman on my old Friday team who had shoulder issues and couldn't throw the ball more than about 8mph...so even a plastic ball hooked.

[Aslan]

Hell...last night I felt bad for the other team because it was an elderly couple and a married, 50s couple. I think they got thrown together because they rarely said 3 words to each other the whole night. There was no hostility...I just think they didn't know each other very well...so it was kinda sad. And that older dude...bowled pretty damn well for an elderly guy throwing non-modern equipment with the old up the side of the ball release. He was the only one to outbowl me in terms of the series. I think he finished in the 630s-650s.

I treat each league differently. On Tuesdays it's about making friends, trying to be pleasant and funny and entertaining and maybe even if Haley's comet collides with a star on the same day all of the planets are alligned...maybe even get laid one of these days. But Wednesdays I'm the high average bowler and I'm in all the sidepots and there's not a lot of banter and joking...for me it's more serious. I don't have a ton of handicap to work with so I can't afford to just take a few frames off.

When I was on that sport shot league...maybe not on my thrown together team...but I know on the other higher skilled teams...there was more of that type of crosstalk about what the lanes were doing and what they were seeing. I think as skill goes up...that type of talk increases.

[RobLV1]

Aslan: The first thing you need to do is to find a high average league in your area. It will probably bowl at 9:00 pm, but that's okay: you have to start somewhere. Before you freak out, please understand that most high average leagues have caps. The cap on the team that I described below is 865 for four bowlers - that's how I got in. If you have the enthusiasm and the willingness to learn, many teams will take you in figuring that you are ripe for massive, fast improvement. Once you get in and bowlers see your value, you will be a popular commodity in terms of filling out teams.

[foreverincamo]

My winter team only talks about the Browns, Cavs, and the Indians...and golf. They were fun to hang with throughout the fall/winter and I'll do it again next season for the fun. The money in that league is too evenly distributed to worry about . The total difference between a team winning the league and finishing last is less than $20/ bowler.
I was going to find a serious sport league for the summer, but a work-injury nixed that idea. Once I get healed up I'll hit some monthly coaching sessions like I did last summer, plus bowl with my kids for fun.

[mc_runner]

My thursday team doesn't talk about bowling at all, more about social/life/work stuff. Which is fine, it's a mixed fun league. Tuesday is a mix, me and the other bigger-hook guy on my team definitely talk about transition and if we notice something off with each other's shots. The other 3 guys aren't really as good or notice that kind of thing, though. Next year we have a couple of different guys on the team so it might be a change.

[Aslan]

Aslan: The first thing you need to do is to find a high average league in your area. It will probably bowl at 9:00 pm, but that's okay: you have to start somewhere. Before you freak out, please understand that most high average leagues have caps. The cap on the team that I described below is 865 for four bowlers - that's how I got in. If you have the enthusiasm and the willingness to learn, many teams will take you in figuring that you are ripe for massive, fast improvement. Once you get in and bowlers see your value, you will be a popular commodity in terms of filling out teams.

I plan to. I was going to try and form one but got discouraged by the pro shop owner. And now I plan on moving to more interior Orange Counter and don't plan on playing at that center anymore. It's a nice center and I like the people but it's really geared more for the college crowd and just doesn't have the league commitment in terms of putting down a consistent pattern. So if they aren't willing to put down a THS pattern before leagues start up...the odds of them agreeing to a scratch PBA sport shot league with a 525 cap is slim to none.

But I'll keep my eye out. I talked to a pro shop guy about it and he says theres a travel league that he's on that is scratch for higher level guys...but there aren't any caps so in that scenario I'm not much of a commodity. Not to mention, you'd have to know a team with an opening.

And I might be moving to the Midwest in 1-3 years so I might wait to "start" a league until I land wherever I'm gonna land. But hopefully next season I'll be able to find something like that. I plan to bowl again at AMF Carter next season and their leagues have taken a huge hit post-bowlmor so there's no chance of starting something like that. But I'll double check to make sure they don't have one already. I also plan to bowl at Linbrook. And the nice thing there is many of their leagues have team caps. I'm sure I can find 1-2 there. They have a 590 trios where a lot of higher average bowlers participate but it's at 9:30AM on a Friday. That would make me have to get up a little before 3AM so I could work, then bowl, then work again until about 5PM. That makes for a long damn Friday!

[RobLV1]

Starting up a league is a tough sell. I tried to start a scratch league three or four years ago and, despite the fact that I'm pretty well known locally as a bowling writer, I was totally unsuccessful. It was many years ago for me, but you might take a look at Oak Tree Lanes in Diamond Bar. They used to have a pretty strong commitment to higher average league bowlers.