When sweeps leads to sandbagging…bad things happen...

[Aslan]

So our team was in a battle tonight. I knew we would struggle in Game 1 against a team that featured two high rev thumbless bowlers…but I've watched that team other weeks and they tend to fade over the course of the night. They put so much into revving up the ball…that they just get tired. And they really struggle with spares when they don't strike.

So Game 1 we lose…Game 2 we win. In Game 3 it's close…but we have the upper hand going into the 10th. Our 3rd bowler…opens in the 10th after a 4-bagger. Then I get up and I leave a 1-2-4 and chop the 2-4 off of it leaving the headpin. So our chances of winning 3 points are gone. We still can split…but our anchor would need to mark. He strikes…then misses completely and hits only the 10-pin. So he's pissed…and figures we have the pins to win the game and split…so as usual…he intentionally misses to keep his average as low as possible.

The "problem" is…he did the math wrong…and if the other team's anchor strikes out…they beat us by 2 pins and take 3 points. Well, the other team's anchor strikes out and we lose by two pins. The old guy on our team was NOT happy and couldn't understand why the anchor would just toss the ball in the gutter on his last throw.

Now, this happens routinely on both Tuesday and Wednesday leagues. Both anchors are more concerned with their average going into sweeps than they are with trying to acheive a high average. And while I don't like that practice, I can certainly understand why they do it. They see other people sandbagging and winning $400-$1200 in Vegas…so they figure they might as well do so as well.

I'm not mad at our anchor…I actually feel bad for him because he just simply did the math wrong. And really, had me and the other guy picked up our make-able spares in the 10th…our anchor wouldn't have been in a bad spot and we could have not only easily won game 3; but we could have taken overall points as well. So, I think I would have been more upset if I had struck out and we were in the running for 2 points and then the anchor just purposely tanks.

Sandbagging…it just never seems to end. :(

[Amyers]

I'm sorry that's just pathetic especially from your anchor. They are in that position for a reason and really shouldn't be doing things like that. I understand they see others doing things like that around them but if you are contributing to the problem you are the problem.

[RobLV1]

I'm sorry that's just pathetic especially from your anchor. They are in that position for a reason and really shouldn't be doing things like that. I understand they see others doing things like that around them but if you are contributing to the problem you are the problem.

If any bowler on my team did that, it would be the last time that he ever bowled on my team, period!

[mc_runner]

Yeah, I would be mad at him. I don't even care if it was a math error, it was purely selfish/unsportsmanlike on his part. Amyers nailed it.

[manke]

I wouldn't bowl with a guy that did that!!

[Tony]

Irregardless of the win and points, it's just poor sportsmanship to not make an effort to score points for your team.

[RobLV1]

The other issue besides losing the points for his team is that by sandbagging for sweeps, he is also cheating his teammates who are his competition for singles and doubles in sweeps. Sandbagging is cheating. Just because there is money involved in sweeps, it's still cheating, however he tries to justify it. The man has no integrity, pure and simple.

[NewToBowling]

The other issue besides losing the points for his team is that by sandbagging for sweeps, he is also cheating his teammates who are his competition for singles and doubles in sweeps. Sandbagging is cheating. Just because there is money involved in sweeps, it's still cheating, however he tries to justify it. The man has no integrity, pure and simple.

Agreed. Looks like he isn't much of a team player. Don't need enemies with friends like these

[Aslan]

The old guy on our team is a real character. He has 16 bowling balls and brings at least 8 with him each night. He has a Hyper Cell Skid, a Jackal, a Bad Intentions, a Columbia Smackdown, a Radical Guru, a Hammer Deadly Aim, a Track HX, etc… He's a decent bowler…but inconsistent. He also has a bowle issue that is really difficult on me bowling after him…lets just say sometimes he "drops a bomb" before my turn.

Now THIS guy…he takes bowling seriously. He keeps asking me if I want to be anchor because I'm better than our anchor. I keep refusing because it really doesn't matter. And the old guy is really competitive…so he's always taunting the anchor and joking around.

Well, after our anchor (a young guy, probably 20s, thumbless bowler) threw the 2nd one in the gutter…the old guy had this crazy surprised look on his face and just instinctively says, "What the %*^& did you do that for!!" And the anchor responded…"uhhh…because there's no way they can beat us and make up the pins anyways so it doesn't matter." The old guy still couldn't figure it out. He doesn't understand the sandbagging aspect.

Well…once the kid realized…we could still lose if the other anchor (who was on FIRE that night) struck twice with good count…lets just say after the game was over I thought there was gonna be a fight. The old guy was really giving it to him. I tried to play peacemaker…pointing out that had HE (the old guy) and I…not totally choked in the 10th and opened…we might have had a chance at 2 points…so it's all good. But I was waiting for the kid to just lose it and yell something like "Ughh…maybe your dumb *** could throw the same ball the same way for more than 2 shots and actually strike more than twice a game…maybe THEN I wouldn't have to mark twice in the 10th just to take 1 point!!" And then that would have been the end of the team. The fat lady has missed 2 straight weeks…so if we lost our anchor…we could be down to 3.

I wasn't happy about it…and it bothers me when people sandbag. I guess I'm just so used to it that it doesn't phase me anymore. I've watched guys bowl lefthanded and dump it in the gutter every shot while establishing…I've watched anchors on teams bowl well when needed and then do nothing for half a game and you have a 200 average bowler bowl a 117…and I even heard with my own ears last season as the woman who won sweeps earlier in the season flat out said that she doesn't really try during the regular season…it's about sweeps. And, the won like $700 as the top female last season in Vegas. Hell…I had a guy elbowing me…claiming that I was sandbagging just because I opened the first game with 7 straight spares…as if I was intentionally trying to miss right and leave the 1-2 every shot. :rolleyes:

But here's what is annoying about that night (besides losing the 2 points)…I shot a 195. In Game 2, I had a 166 in the 8th then spared twice giving me a 195 with a fill ball to throw. A gutter ball and I have a 195-195 after 2 games…might have a shot at a triplicate. And Game 2 we were getting smoked anyways…so my fill shot didn't really matter. And in Game 3…as long as I didn't strike in the 10th…I'd have a shot at that 3rd 195. I ended up with a 7 on the first ball in the 10th and could have just chopped a pin off the 1-2-4 and that would have gave me 195 for a 195-195-195 triplicate. But…like the old guy on our team…and like Iceman I'm sure would say…I just can't do that. I try my best on every shot unless there's some rare situation where the team would benefit from me not trying my best.

But things like that…just makes me want to find a suitable scratch league sooner rather than later.

[HowDoIHookAgain]

I never liked sandbagging. Never have, and never will. If someone is going to try and bowl even a little bit seriously, then they give 110% all the time, not just when they need to make their average. They will never develop as a teammate (or bowler) if they play like that. Whether money is involved or not, that's a selfish move.

[TonyInPortland]

It is against USBC rules to not try your best on every shot. I would not say it is you and your teammate's fault for not making your spares in the tenth. I am sure people do sandbag, but I have rarely noticed it, and would not tolerate it from my teammates!

[Aslan]

It is against USBC rules to not try your best on every shot. I would not say it is you and your teammate's fault for not making your spares in the tenth. I am sure people do sandbag, but I have rarely notice it, and would not tolerate it from my teammates!

I agree with ya Tony...but sandbagging happens more often than you think...especially out here (West) where so many leagues sweep in Vegas or Reno or Laughlin or some other venue. We literally have people in BOTH my Tuesday and Wednesday leagues that spend the entire year just simply not caring. I've bowled with and against high skilled bowlers that once they miss that first strike and lose a chance at a perfect game...they pretty much just don't care.

The guy that did that last season on Tuesdays took home over $1100 when we swept in Vegas. Now, I couldn't really criticize him too much for sandbagging...because in all honesty...he had the highest average in the league at 207 (harder conditions than most other centers around here). Kinda hard to call the highest average guy a sandbagger. And he's the most skilled bowler in the league...so it makes sense he'd win.

But the female bowler that won the last 2 years straight...is like the niece or grand-daughter of a former PBA bowler (I don't recall the name..or maybe she is just a liar) and she flat out said last season that, "...it doesn't matter, I don't really try until Vegas." Same thing...she'll try for a 300...then just keep things respectable...maybe win a sidepot or something...but if she gets off pace...her spare shooting would just be haphazard.

The reason I took responsibility (partial) for the loss of that game was simply that I'm used to organized team sports from high school and what you get taught (or at least used to) early on is that you win as a team and you lose as a team. If you didn't throw a perfect game...your lack of performance hurt the team just as much as his (the sandbagger's). Now...who is MOST to blame...the anchor. And a couple nights after that game...I was promoted to anchor and he's bowling 4th. :cool:

[Mike White]

I agree with ya Tony...but sandbagging happens more often than you think...especially out here (West) where so many leagues sweep in Vegas or Reno or Laughlin or some other venue. We literally have people in BOTH my Tuesday and Wednesday leagues that spend the entire year just simply not caring. I've bowled with and against high skilled bowlers that once they miss that first strike and lose a chance at a perfect game...they pretty much just don't care.

The guy that did that last season on Tuesdays took home over $1100 when we swept in Vegas. Now, I couldn't really criticize him too much for sandbagging...because in all honesty...he had the highest average in the league at 207 (harder conditions than most other centers around here). Kinda hard to call the highest average guy a sandbagger. And he's the most skilled bowler in the league...so it makes sense he'd win.

But the female bowler that won the last 2 years straight...is like the niece or grand-daughter of a former PBA bowler (I don't recall the name..or maybe she is just a liar) and she flat out said last season that, "...it doesn't matter, I don't really try until Vegas." Same thing...she'll try for a 300...then just keep things respectable...maybe win a sidepot or something...but if she gets off pace...her spare shooting would just be haphazard.

The reason I took responsibility (partial) for the loss of that game was simply that I'm used to organized team sports from high school and what you get taught (or at least used to) early on is that you win as a team and you lose as a team. If you didn't throw a perfect game...your lack of performance hurt the team just as much as his (the sandbagger's). Now...who is MOST to blame...the anchor. And a couple nights after that game...I was promoted to anchor and he's bowling 4th. :cool:

In those organized team sports from high school, did you ever have to spot the opponent some handicap in the form extra runs, baskets, touchdowns, etc?

It's the handicap, and winning is everything mentality that leads to sandbagging.

[TonyInPortland]

In those organized team sports from high school, did you ever have to spot the opponent some handicap in the form extra runs, baskets, touchdowns, etc?

It's the handicap, and winning is everything mentality that leads to sandbagging.

In high school the handicap is in the different divisions that keep schools of similar student body size in the same conference. Also, the freshman team has all freshmen, the JV team usually has underclassmen. I play USTA tennis and we have different levels (3.5, 4.0, 4.5, etc). Computer rankings determine whether or not you get bumped up or down at the end of a season and the exact formula that the computer uses is supposedly a secret, so it should be more difficult to sandbag. I have heard it is not based on matches won or lost, but instead on number of games won and lost, so if you lose 7-5, 7-5 it does not change your rating much, but if you lose 6-0, 6-1 it would.

You could probably still try to sandbag and I imagine people do, but you have to be careful. If you are up 5-1 in a set, and you let the other player or doubles team win a couple games, it could backfire on you and they could come back and win the match.

But bowling and golf are 2 sports where there is no actual interaction between the players, so the handicap system is used. If there were enough league bowlers, though, you could do it like tennis, and have one league with say, everyone below 150 average, another with 150-165, 166-180, 181-195, and 196+ or whatever. Then if your average goes up, you would be promoted to the next level. I think European soccer works this way. That way you are competing against bowlers of similar ability with no handicap.

Of course someone could still sandbag in order to stay at a lower level. I think our state tournament used to be this way, with A, B and C levels. Not sure, but I think they changed it to a handicap system.

[Aslan]

In those organized team sports from high school, did you ever have to spot the opponent some handicap in the form extra runs, baskets, touchdowns, etc?

It's the handicap, and winning is everything mentality that leads to sandbagging.

Don't disagree with that.

But the obvious solution is scratch leagues...but scratch leagues make the sport uncompetitive to new bowlers...thus nobody would start bowling.

So the only REAL solution are DIVISIONS.
Beginners 0-160 average = Handicap leagues, no-tap.
Intermediate 161-190 average = Handicap leagues, standard.
Advanced any average = Scratch leagues.

Beginning leagues cost $15/night, biggest prize is a trophy. Winning team automatically moved to intermediate league for following season.
Intermediate leagues, $20/night, Trophies and $$$ awarded...most an individual can win is $600. Winning team doesn't automatically move up, but all teams the following season use a combination of season average and sweeps score to determine entering average the following season.
Advanced leagues cost $25/night, no limit on money.

Nobody likes these ideas because it limits bowler mobility. For example. lets say Rob, Mike, Bill F., and Iceman all wanted to start a team (just because that would LITERALLY be the best entertainment I can imagine):
Mike averages 200. Iceman averages 214. Rob averages 189. Bill F averages (??) lets say 207.

In that scenario, all would have to be in a scratch league because they average > 190. Rob could play intermediate/handicap...but the rest of his team can't.

After one season...hypothetical:
MWhite averages 191, Iceman averages 194, Rob averages 169, BillF averages 201. Iceman wants to play on a different team, in Missouri, on wood lanes because he's better there...and he knows 3 guys on a handicap team that need a guy...but alas...Iceman CAN'T JOIN because he averages >190. MWhite gets upset at Rob (purely hypothetical of course) because he's dragging the team down with a 169, so Rob is forced to find a handicap team that needs a player. And BillF has two coworkers that he wants to bring in...but they both average in the 150-160 range and aren't even eligible to participate in anything but no-tap.

It makes a LOT of problems...because wives can't bowl with husbands and friends get split up, etc... But there really is no other, better option. As long as money is at stake in the Intermediate Handicap league...even just $600...people will try to sandbag. And in addition, some will be sandbagging just to stay in the league because they know if their average is >190 they automatically get bumped to scratch the following season.

It sounds complicated, but in reality is how virtually EVERY SPORT handles participation. There are baseball teams at multiple levels (tee ball, minor league, little league, travel league, high school, college, single-A, AA, AAA, International, and MLB). Each level has restrictions. I suck at basketball...but I can't join an 8th grade basketball team and pretend I'm Shaq...I'm too old. I also can't just 'decide' I want to play MLB baseball and sign up for a team. There is a progression that must be followed.

In bowling (and golf), you sign up for a league and are competing against a person who averages 94 and a person who is a PBA Regional player. If all leagues were scratch...no new bowler would stick around more than 1-3 seasons...because it would be an exercise in futility.

The best way I've seen it done (tournaments, leagues) is the annual BVL tournament. They have 6 divisions for women and 5 divisions for men. And youth girls get their own division and youth boys get their own division. The divisions are set up like this:

Classic: >194 average
A Division > 170 average
B division > 150 average
C Division > 130 average
D division > 119 average

Now, those aren't the exact ranges I don't think...I didn't look it up...but the point is...it's scratch...but everyone still has a good shot of winning because you're bowling against only those people at your skill level. The problem is with teams...trying to get entire teams of friends and family to fit all in one division is almost impossible.

I think the only thing a league can reasonably do to thwart sandbagging is use the average from sweeps to help calculate their starting average the next season. For example:
Lets say ZDawg decides to sandbag so he can enter the 3ABHMAVZSCI against me and MWhite. He sandbags an entire season and enters with a 137. He turns it on and averages 194 in the tournament (barely losing again to Aslan because Aslan OWNS MWhite and ZDawg in that tournament). Next time around...to stop ZDawg from being a little cheater...the league/tournament rules are changed and for the 4ABHMAVZSCI ZDawg can use is new 145 average...but it is given only 50% weight...the other 50% weight is given to the 194 he averaged last season...giving him an average of (194+147)/2 = 170.

So...lets see how this WOULD HAVE worked for the BHMAVZSCIs:

1st Annual:
Entering Averages: Aslan (166), MWhite (192), ZDawg (148).
Averages from Tournament: Aslan (151), MWhite (164), ZDawg (124)

So, for the 2nd annual (had we done it that way):
Entering Averages: Aslan (166), MWhite (199), ZDawg (152).

Had we used this system:
Aslan = (166 + 151)/2 = 158
MWhite = (199 + 164)/2 = 181
ZDawg = (152 + 124) = 138

So with that adjustment...I would have gotten 20 pins handicap (instead of 29).
MWhite would still have gotten 0 pins.
ZDawg would have gotten 38 pins instead of 42.

Would that have changed things?

Well, Aslan would still have dominated the youngsters with a 596 scratch + 60 pins of handicap for a 656.
But MWhite wouldn't have had to settle for a share of 2nd place...because his 621 scratch would have held up.
Meanwhile, ZDawg, getting less handicap, would not have been able to catch MWhite with ZDawg's 496 + only 114 = 610.

Bad example I guess since in the 1st Annual Tournament we all bowled so **** poor. But it WOULD be a factor for the 3rd Annual Event! Why?

Well, lets say we had the tournament early next year...and we'll just use my average for the example. My sanctioned average will likely be 180. Mikes likely at 200. That would give me 18 pins per game or 54 total. IF we use the revised system; (180+198)/2 = 189. MWhite would be at lets say (200 + 207)/2 = 203. 203-189 * 0.9 = 3 pins per game for a series total of only 9 pins difference.

If I roll a 600 series and Mike a 620...under the usual system I win by 34. If we use the revised system, I lose by 11.

But will there BE a 3rd Annual?? ZDawg has been AWOL for quite some time...can't have a 3rd Annual Billy Hardwick Memorial Aslan vs. ZDawg Southern California Invitational without a "ZDawg"!! Besides...who is Mike gonna finish ahead of if it's just me and him!??

[Tony]

Don't disagree with that.

But the obvious solution is scratch leagues...but scratch leagues make the sport uncompetitive to new bowlers...thus nobody would start bowling.


It sounds complicated, but in reality is how virtually EVERY SPORT handles participation. There are baseball teams at multiple levels (tee ball, minor league, little league, travel league, high school, college, single-A, AA, AAA, International, and MLB). Each level has restrictions. I suck at basketball...but I can't join an 8th grade basketball team and pretend I'm Shaq...I'm too old. I also can't just 'decide' I want to play MLB baseball and sign up for a team. There is a progression that must be followed.



Lets just wait a second before we decide that virtually every sport handles participation using this model. Are you comparing recreational bowling to the progression of competitive baseball? The Sunday night beer and Pizza league to MLB ? How about we compare recreational bowling to Co-rec softball instead ?
If you want to join in the crusade to organize an progression from competitive youth bowling throughout the ranks , whatever you develop them to be to the PBA tour that would be great!
But lets not compare what we're doing here to the NBA or MLB.
I can just join a softball team, volleyball team, or rec basketball team and play with people I like and want to play with, that's what recreational sports are all about.

[Mike White]

Lets just wait a second before we decide that virtually every sport handles participation using this model. Are you comparing recreational bowling to the progression of competitive baseball? The Sunday night beer and Pizza league to MLB ? How about we compare recreational bowling to Co-rec softball instead ?
If you want to join in the crusade to organize an progression from competitive youth bowling throughout the ranks , whatever you develop them to be to the PBA tour that would be great!
But lets not compare what we're doing here to the NBA or MLB.
I can just join a softball team, volleyball team, or rec basketball team and play with people I like and want to play with, that's what recreational sports are all about.

I haven't played Adult organized Softball, Volleyball, or rec Basketball.

Are those games played competing for money, or just trophies?

Is all money involved strictly to over expenses?

Unfortunately handicap bowling isn't like that.

Bowling has a strong gambling background.

You want a guy with lower ability to risk his money, you have to make the game closer to fair.

[Aslan]

I agree with Mike.

I understand what Tony is getting at, but the sports he listed rarely compete for money. And there's no handicap system in softball or basketball.

The facts are...Divisions work quite well. I've seen them used in rec ice hockey for example...and when paintball was popular they even had a couple different divisions when you'd go to the field. If leagues were in divisions and were scratch...handicap problem eliminated. Especially if they make it so the top average bowls last and lowest average bowls first and you get points for each person beating the person in the same position on the other team. Rob has been in leagues like that.

The PROBLEM with Divisions is...you need lots of teams to do divisions. League bowling in some centers could do it...but most centers barely have enough teams to even field a league on certain nights.

This is gonna be a dilemma for me as sweeps approach and with my new team next season on Wednesdays. At sweeps, I'll be interested to see if any of these so-called 170s average bowlers suddenly drop a 700+ series in Vegas. And next season, I'm on a team with that sandbagger kid...and a friend of his...and I just have a feeling they both might play the sandbagging thing again next season. If they do, I'll find another team. I'm probably not re-joining that league in summer 2016 anyways...so I didn't want to rock the boat too badly yet...plus, we haven't swept yet to maybe it's (sandbagging) not as bad as I fear.

[Aslan]

Is it possible under USBC rules to "weight" averages???

Let me give an example:

If I proposed a league; it would be a 5-person scratch league with a average CAP at 795. Teams with 100% returning members, the cap is 820.

It would be designed like Rob's Vegas league where worst average bowls first, best average bowls last. Standard 5 points for 4 games and Total...but you also are facing off against the other person in the same position as you...and a point is available for each series for a total of 10 points per week.

But, lets assume we keep it a handicap league...back to the question I wanted to ask, to stop sandbagging....I would propose that the average you roll at sweeps in Vegas (in this league...but whatever/wherever you sweep)...that is your entering average next season. That part is simple. But to further discourage sandbagging, I would WEIGHT that average as if it counts 3x as much as a standard league game the following season. Here is a hypothetical example:

Team 1: Entering average 706 (< 795)
Ashley (96)
Bob (121)
Tim (133)
Jimmy (147)
Smitty (209)

At SWEEPS: Ashley bowls a 97. Bob bowls a 123. Tim (sandbagger supreme) bowls a 217 average and wins $569. Jimmy also sandbags a little, and also makes some money ($469) bowling a 189 average. Smitty has trouble with the Vegas lanes and only bowls a 203 average.

The next season, Vegas entering averages are used:
Ashley (97)
Bob (123)
Tim (217)
Jimmy (189)
Smitty (203)

Unfortunately, their team entering average is now 829. That means they need to lose one player and bring in someone with a lower average. And since they can't keep the whole team...they need to get to 795. Lets say Bob isn't coming back and they find a beginner to fill his spot.

Lets say in the first 3 weeks, we'll take Tim and Jimmy as the examples:
Tim continues to sandbag even though he has hurt his team and probably should have been the one to get booted and have to look for another team... 167-188-179.
Jimmy bowls a 152-152-189.

Is it LEGAL to calculate their averages like THIS:

Tim: 217-217-217-167-188-179 = 1185/6 = 197 (versus 178)
Jimmy: 189-189-189-152-152-189 = 1060/6 = 176 (versus 164)

??????

It's not that I want to PUNISH people for having good games at sweeps...it's just that if you have a league of sandbaggers...it GREATLY discourages that behavior for TWO REASONS:

1) If you enter with a 217 average...you may not be able to keep your team together if it was based on you having a 133 average. So sandbagging actually hurts you and your team for the following season.
2) By weighting the average...you don't just get penalized in week 1...it penalizes you every week of the season. I did something like this when I ran the Virtual Bowling Tour. Entering average counted as one month's score (not 3 as I propose above...but that's because the VBT was much shorter than a standard league).

The other way to greatly discourage sandbagging would be to lock the people into spots based on their entering average from Sweeps. In the example above...Tim must now bowl anchor...so if he sandbags and throws 399 series every week...he's costing his team at least 1 point every week if you give points for head-to-head (as I proposed/mentioned in my post below).

But is that LEGAL? Is it LEGAL to weight averages based on sweeps performance?

[Tony]

I haven't played Adult organized Softball, Volleyball, or rec Basketball.

Are those games played competing for money, or just trophies?

Is all money involved strictly to over expenses?

Unfortunately handicap bowling isn't like that.

Bowling has a strong gambling background.

You want a guy with lower ability to risk his money, you have to make the game closer to fair.


I can understand playing for money however playing in the recreational bowling league where you win 100.00 is hardly considered gambling in my book. Certainly the big money leagues and tournaments are a different story.
To answer your question there are many big money tournaments for softball where the payout can be significant but the basic leagues are not usually setup like that.
The others also have money tournaments and again most average leagues do not pay out money.
Softball uses a sort of handicap system related to level of players on your team , only 3 class A players or some similar rule are allowed on a team.

[Aslan]

I can understand playing for money however playing in the recreational bowling league where you win 100.00 is hardly considered gambling in my book. Certainly the big money leagues and tournaments are a different story.

Most leagues out here sweep somewhere...usually Vegas. Of the 3 times I've went...soon to be 4...bowlers that bowl well at Sweeps can generally take home $400-$1500.

The first time I went I think I took home $13. The second time I think I took home $27. And last time I won about $275-$420...somewhere in that range.

I should re-phrase "took home". Obviously, Vegas tends to take whatever money you have and you generally leave with nothing...so I figure on most trips...I need to win $400 just to break even and pay for the trip. Maybe $1000 if I'm there a little longer and take in a show and do some gambling.

And that's why sandbagging is such a problem around this area...because everyone quickly realizes that if you work your butt off for 23 weeks and get a high average and win the league...you get a trophy and about $150. But if you sandbag and finish in last place with a low average...you get a towel and $20...but then take home $950 in Vegas versus the 1st place team/guy that bowls their average and wins $70 in Vegas. $70+$150+trophy = $220 and a trophy. Sandbagger gets $20+$950+a towel = $970 and a towel.

That means the high average, non-sandbagger needs to probably win the mens sidepot 2-10 times throughout the season (depending on how much it's worth) just to break even with the sandbagger.

[Tony]

I agree with Mike.

I understand what Tony is getting at, but the sports he listed rarely compete for money. And there's no handicap system in softball or basketball.



One of the softball teams some buddies of mine played on were playing is 15 or more tournaments for money per summer, some of them charged 1000.00 or more per team and in some cases only the top 3 to 5 teams got paid out of 30 teams or more.
There are over 100 tournaments for softball in Michigan and 88 in Illinois on the current schedule.
Softball is handicapped by restricting number of players of a certain level computed by statistics and listed by the USSSA softball organization. Such as you can have 2 class A players on your roster ...

And yes one of the stats used is number of home runs per game, during a season.....sandbagging would most certainly exist in this format.

I will not speak for the exact organization of all basket ball tournament but I did read about one coming up that is a 1 million dollar winner take all tournament.

[ALazySavage]

Aslan, it is a crappy situation but using a 3 game average to determine a team average cap structure wouldn't work (ignoring if it is legal or not) and here is how I see it.

First, by using the sweeps average as a basis for team structure you are going to lose a lot of bowlers. Not that I personally went to a large sweeps event, but in my Thursday night league sweeper week I shot 790 (I was averaging 219 in that league), if my entering average becomes 263.3 because of one week I'm not coming back the next season...because I'm getting a 69 pin penalty for having one good week (the 44 pin increase in average plus the likely 25 pin penalty for not keeping the original team together). Sandbagging will still occur for those who struggled in the start of sweeps because they will just give up to keep their new entering average low.

Second, because most bowling leagues (especially handicap leagues) are designed to be both competitive and social you are going to continuously break up teams and this will cause people to leave. I first hand saw this in Arizona with the Corvette Classic league (high competition scratch league). At first people did not mind picking up free agents and so forth to remain under the set cap, but as the league progressed every league meeting would have a large portion of the league over this cap, so there was a league vote and the cap would get raised 10 pins...for the majority of teams this was fine, but the teams that were a little bit under the old cap they would disband and maybe the top 2-3 bowlers on each team would join up (this would cause multiple teams to be effectively forced out of the league because they couldn't remain competitive). A few years of this happened and more and more teams would fall under this cap and leave the league. Essentially enough teams fell under the cap that the league got small enough that it no longer was seen as a prestigious league and died out.

[Tony]

Most leagues out here sweep somewhere...usually Vegas. Of the 3 times I've went...soon to be 4...bowlers that bowl well at Sweeps can generally take home $400-$1500.

The first time I went I think I took home $13. The second time I think I took home $27. And last time I won about $275-$420...somewhere in that range.

I should re-phrase "took home". Obviously, Vegas tends to take whatever money you have and you generally leave with nothing...so I figure on most trips...I need to win $400 just to break even and pay for the trip. Maybe $1000 if I'm there a little longer and take in a show and do some gambling.

And that's why sandbagging is such a problem around this area...because everyone quickly realizes that if you work your butt off for 23 weeks and get a high average and win the league...you get a trophy and about $150. But if you sandbag and finish in last place with a low average...you get a towel and $20...but then take home $950 in Vegas versus the 1st place team/guy that bowls their average and wins $70 in Vegas. $70+$150+trophy = $220 and a trophy. Sandbagger gets $20+$950+a towel = $970 and a towel.

That means the high average, non-sandbagger needs to probably win the mens sidepot 2-10 times throughout the season (depending on how much it's worth) just to break even with the sandbagger.

It's all relative, the general leagues around here in the midwest do not have anything like that. I can certain see the problem but I don't see how the incorrect and misleading references to baseball, volleyball , basketball have a place here.

Why don't they use prior tournament scores to compute tournament averages ?

[LyalC52]

don't bowl in leagues that do sweeps, problem solved LDO

[Mike White]

don't bowl in leagues that do sweeps, problem solved LDO

Around here, leagues that don't do sweeps are probably harder to find than scratch leagues.

The only one I can think of is a church league where all of the money left over after lineage is donated to the church.

[TonyInPortland]

Most leagues out here sweep somewhere...usually Vegas. Of the 3 times I've went...soon to be 4...bowlers that bowl well at Sweeps can generally take home $400-$1500.

The first time I went I think I took home $13. The second time I think I took home $27. And last time I won about $275-$420...somewhere in that range.

I should re-phrase "took home". Obviously, Vegas tends to take whatever money you have and you generally leave with nothing...so I figure on most trips...I need to win $400 just to break even and pay for the trip. Maybe $1000 if I'm there a little longer and take in a show and do some gambling.

And that's why sandbagging is such a problem around this area...because everyone quickly realizes that if you work your butt off for 23 weeks and get a high average and win the league...you get a trophy and about $150. But if you sandbag and finish in last place with a low average...you get a towel and $20...but then take home $950 in Vegas versus the 1st place team/guy that bowls their average and wins $70 in Vegas. $70+$150+trophy = $220 and a trophy. Sandbagger gets $20+$950+a towel = $970 and a towel.

That means the high average, non-sandbagger needs to probably win the mens sidepot 2-10 times throughout the season (depending on how much it's worth) just to break even with the sandbagger.


They go to Vegas and bowl the Sweeper there? I have been in a few leagues in Oregon and never heard of that. I know there are leagues where they go to Vegas at the end of the season, but I didn't think that they bowled there. That seems ridiculous. What if you work and can't leave town? Then if you do go, you have to transport all your equipment on a plane and worry about it being damaged or stolen. Then, like you said, if you do win anything, you spend it all back in Vegas. Wow, that seems like a really bad idea all the way around. I wouldn't bowl a league that did that!

[Amyers]

Most leagues out here sweep somewhere...usually Vegas. Of the 3 times I've went...soon to be 4...bowlers that bowl well at Sweeps can generally take home $400-$1500.

The first time I went I think I took home $13. The second time I think I took home $27. And last time I won about $275-$420...somewhere in that range.

I should re-phrase "took home". Obviously, Vegas tends to take whatever money you have and you generally leave with nothing...so I figure on most trips...I need to win $400 just to break even and pay for the trip. Maybe $1000 if I'm there a little longer and take in a show and do some gambling.

And that's why sandbagging is such a problem around this area...because everyone quickly realizes that if you work your butt off for 23 weeks and get a high average and win the league...you get a trophy and about $150. But if you sandbag and finish in last place with a low average...you get a towel and $20...but then take home $950 in Vegas versus the 1st place team/guy that bowls their average and wins $70 in Vegas. $70+$150+trophy = $220 and a trophy. Sandbagger gets $20+$950+a towel = $970 and a towel.

That means the high average, non-sandbagger needs to probably win the mens sidepot 2-10 times throughout the season (depending on how much it's worth) just to break even with the sandbagger.

There are no sweeper leagues here but we do have some high dollar leagues in the area. Smaller area here so if someone was routinely doing something like this everyone would know it and they would be done bowling here period. Also Are they bowling individually or as a team during these sweepers? Unless a lot of the team is doing it seems to me unless they are willing to completely tank 20 extra pins can make a difference but not that hard to overcome. I can't see anybody here willing to take the reputation hit to do this.

[LyalC52]

Around here, leagues that don't do sweeps are probably harder to find than scratch leagues.

The only one I can think of is a church league where all of the money left over after lineage is donated to the church.

Of the 3 house I bowl at, I know of only one league that will be doing sweepers and they will go to Vegas for them.

Just started a 4 man scratch league, $25.00 per night,
guaranteed $5,000 to the winning team, $1,000 to last place

[Mike White]

There are no sweeper leagues here but we do have some high dollar leagues in the area. Smaller area here so if someone was routinely doing something like this everyone would know it and they would be done bowling here period. Also Are they bowling individually or as a team during these sweepers? Unless a lot of the team is doing it seems to me unless they are willing to completely tank 20 extra pins can make a difference but not that hard to overcome. I can't see anybody here willing to take the reputation hit to do this.

Around here sweepers money is paid out for a few different categories.

Everything is with Handicap

Womens Singles
Mens Singles
Womens Double (every female is paired with every other female)
Mens Doubles (same pairing rules)
Mixed Doubles (every person is paired with every other person of the opposite gender)

When there is money set aside for teams, it's usually a set amount per pair, with the team on the pair who shoots higher total, gets something like 60%, and the lower team gets 40%.

Occasionally they will split the singles and doubles each into 3 payouts, one for each game, rather than total series.

In my Laughlin league, of the money left after lineage, 75% goes towards point money (paid before going to Laughlin) and 25% is paid based on how you do in Laughlin.

Oh also out of that money, the league pays for one night hotel per person. So a couple staying in the same room would get 2 nights, or can opt for 1 night, and cash.

Some people gamble enough that the casino comps them rooms, so the league gives them cash instead of the room.

[Amyers]

Around here sweepers money is paid out for a few different categories.

Everything is with Handicap

Womens Singles
Mens Singles
Womens Double (every female is paired with every other female)
Mens Doubles (same pairing rules)
Mixed Doubles (every person is paired with every other person of the opposite gender)

When there is money set aside for teams, it's usually a set amount per pair, with the team on the pair who shoots higher total, gets something like 60%, and the lower team gets 40%.

Occasionally they will split the singles and doubles each into 3 payouts, one for each game, rather than total series.

In my Laughlin league, of the money left after lineage, 75% goes towards point money (paid before going to Laughlin) and 25% is paid based on how you do in Laughlin.

Oh also out of that money, the league pays for one night hotel per person. So a couple staying in the same room would get 2 nights, or can opt for 1 night, and cash.

Some people gamble enough that the casino comps them rooms, so the league gives them cash instead of the room.

Is the point money paid out on team results? If it is and you're screwing with 75% of my money to try and get an extra amount of the 25% paid out for sweeps I'm going to be using some of my money to purchase a shovel to bury your body with. We usually have set amounts for first and second place and then awards high average and such the remainder is paid out in points based off the final team standings. I don't think I would care much for bowling that way your describing. With that kind of crap going on us hillbillies don't take kindly to people playing games with our money.

[Mike White]

Is the point money paid out on team results? If it is and you're screwing with 75% of my money to try and get an extra amount of the 25% paid out for sweeps I'm going to be using some of my money to purchase a shovel to bury your body with. We usually have set amounts for first and second place and then awards high average and such the remainder is paid out in points based off the final team standings. I don't think I would care much for bowling that way your describing. With that kind of crap going on us hillbillies don't take kindly to people playing games with our money.

It's pretty much the same, except rather than a set amount for the final positions, the money paid to teams is divided up based on the number of games won during the season.

So if for example, the 1st place team won 70.5 games, and the 2nd place team won 70 games, they would be paid almost the same amount of money.

Maybe hillbillies have a reputation for being "backwards" because they are too eager to resort to shovels, when presented with a different idea.

Why is having set amounts for first, second, etc not "playing games" with your money?

Why not have all teams get the same amount back regardless of how they finish in the league.

I'm sure the lower half of your league wouldn't mind that.

If I remember correctly, of the $18 we paid each night, $9.50 when to lineage, 5.625 went towards the point money fund, and 2.875 went towards league expenses, trophies, room fees, and sweepers.

Over the course of the season, the point money fund totaled about $16000, while the total sweeper fund was somewhere around $5000.

[Amyers]

Maybe hillbillies have a reputation for being "backwards" because they are too eager to resort to shovels, when presented with a different idea

Could be. I really wouldn't have an issue with the setup here. Were it becomes an issue is if you have bowlers screwing the team (75% of the money) to get an advantage for the sweeper (25% of the money).


Why is having set amounts for first, second, etc not "playing games" with your money?

I've played in point's only leagues before and don't have an issue with it. Usually the guarantee leagues that pay set amounts for first or first and second still have sponsors here. I know becoming a rarity so the point money is prize fund money paid out equally among the teams based on the point scale.


Why not have all teams get the same amount back regardless of how they finish in the league

If you wanted to do that why have a prize fund to begin with? I don't need someone else to set up a savings account for me. I have played in church leagues that don't have a prize fund (mostly out of desperation because their wasn't a league on that night during the summer) can't say as I cared much for it. It was mostly newer bowlers or people that treated it as a social event. Which is fine if that's what they are interested in. Learned my lesson if I see a league where more than 25% of the bowlers are throwing house balls run don't walk.

[Mike White]

Could be. I really wouldn't have an issue with the setup here. Were it becomes an issue is if you have bowlers screwing the team (75% of the money) to get an advantage for the sweeper (25% of the money).


Ok I thought you meant the people making the rules were screwing with the 75%. I didn't even consider it being your teammates.... In that case, resume shovel shopping.



I've played in point's only leagues before and don't have an issue with it. Usually the guarantee leagues that pay set amounts for first or first and second still have sponsors here. I know becoming a rarity so the point money is prize fund money paid out equally among the teams based on the point scale.

You've got companies willing to donate money to bowling? Damn, must be nice.

I personally knew the owner of the local Buick dealership, and while we were able to get a "sponsor fee" for something like $50 from him, we didn't get shirts.


If you wanted to do that why have a prize fund to begin with? I don't need someone else to set up a savings account for me. I have played in church leagues that don't have a prize fund (mostly out of desperation because their wasn't a league on that night during the summer) can't say as I cared much for it. It was mostly newer bowlers or people that treated it as a social event. Which is fine if that's what they are interested in. Learned my lesson if I see a league where more than 25% of the bowlers are throwing house balls run don't walk.


As far as having all teams paid the same, you're response here is almost verbatim of mine, even down to the saving account.

[Aslan]

Around here, leagues that don't do sweeps are probably harder to find than scratch leagues.

The only one I can think of is a church league where all of the money left over after lineage is donated to the church.

That's one of the biggest differences with bowling in California versus other parts of the country. Because Vegas is SO close...yet far enough away that it's still desireable to go to...I'd say at LEAST 60% of the leagues sweep in Vegas. And there's usually one league per center that sweeps in Laughlin, NV. Of the other lets say 5-40% of leagues...they may sweep differently...like one was golf oriented and they used sweeper money for a end of season golf thing. Another one was a horse track league that swept at a horse race. There are plenty of leagues that don't sweep in Vegas...but they are usually scratch, or they are senior leagues during the day, or some are non-sanctioned, etc... But Mike IS right...I'll roughly have the same trouble finding a league that doesn't sweep in Vegas or Laughlin as I would finding a scratch league.

Neither are as rare sport short leagues...sport shot leagues are exceedingly rare. Travel leagues are also very difficult to find and get into....especially if you need to join an evening league. Many of the coolest leagues around here are during the day. Pro shop operators and PBA regional folks end up filling daytime scratch/competitive leagues because usually they are busy with the pro shop in the evenings.

There's a couple really big money scratch leagues around here...mainly at Fountain Bowl and Del Rio. But it's like $30-$36/week and you're bowling against PBA Regional level talent.

That reminds me of the last BVL tournament I went to for Orange County and one of the guys bowling in the Scratch division, who eventually won it, everyone was kinda giving him guff about bowling in the tournament and I couldn't figure out why. Then I bowled in a PBA West Regional Pro Am and there he was. Then I realized they were giving him guff because he was a legitimate pro bowling in a very low level amateur tournament.

[Tony]

It's pretty much the same, except rather than a set amount for the final positions, the money paid to teams is divided up based on the number of games won during the season.

So if for example, the 1st place team won 70.5 games, and the 2nd place team won 70 games, they would be paid almost the same amount of money.

Maybe hillbillies have a reputation for being "backwards" because they are too eager to resort to shovels, when presented with a different idea.

Why is having set amounts for first, second, etc not "playing games" with your money?

Why not have all teams get the same amount back regardless of how they finish in the league.

I'm sure the lower half of your league wouldn't mind that.

If I remember correctly, of the $18 we paid each night, $9.50 when to lineage, 5.625 went towards the point money fund, and 2.875 went towards league expenses, trophies, room fees, and sweepers.

Over the course of the season, the point money fund totaled about $16000, while the total sweeper fund was somewhere around $5000.

Our league gets some local sponsor money and the team payout is also based on team wins. They also pay out a small set amount (20.00) for high game and series with and without handicap.

One league I bowled in used to do a sweeper night but to prevent sandbagging most of the money won went to the team, they had small amounts set to go for the other doubles and singles events, 20 - 50 dollars so there was not that much incentive to cheat.

[zdawg]

But will there BE a 3rd Annual?? ZDawg has been AWOL for quite some time...can't have a 3rd Annual Billy Hardwick Memorial Aslan vs. ZDawg Southern California Invitational without a "ZDawg"!! Besides...who is Mike gonna finish ahead of if it's just me and him!??

And I'm back...:cool:

Truth be told, I haven't bowled since the beginning of May, had a minor meltdown with my team when 3 people decided they weren't able to make it the day of the most important match of last winter season (1 guy just didn't show up he apparently fell asleep at least the other 2 texted me less than an hour before we were scheduled to bowl). Essentially we had to forfeit and lost any shot at the championship after a lot of hard work climbing the ladder in the second half of the season, to say I was pissed is an understatement (I'm friends outside of bowling with 2 of the 3 culprits in this situation so I eventually just had to let it go).

So, I decided to take the Summer off with the idea of possibly subbing here and there and maybe throwing in a couple of practice sessions each week, but that never materialized either due in part to a nagging shoulder injury.

My lack of any bowling whatsoever for the last 4 months or so directly correlates to my lack of participation on the board, however our league is starting Friday so I figured I'd drop by and check out all that's happened since I disappeared. Hopefully there are some good technique threads, as I have a feeling its gonna be a rough few weeks or more getting back into the swing of things (hopefully without any further injuries)

[Amyers]

Good to see you back zdawg now where is Mudpuppy.

[Aslan]

And from the newsdesk at the corporate sandbagging headquarters...a new situation occurred in my former Tuesday league...apparently the guy that took 2nd place (and about $900) at sweeps...was a 200+ average bowler that during last season had a league average in the 150s.

So, when I went to visit my old team and collect my massive $33 winnings from Sweeps (I had to leave and go bowl in my 2nd league while they gave out the money), they told me that because of that guy...this season there is a new rule; something to the effect that, going into sweeps, a person cannot average more than 15 pins lower than the season before.

It amazes me how many new rules we keep coming up with to try and defeat sandbaggers...yet it's completely ineffective.

Iceman....if you weren't busy advocating snake oil as a treatment for cancer, measles, and the common cold...I'm sure you'd be here joining me in the condemnation of cheaters and sandbaggers everywhere!!! Booooo!! to them!

[jab5325]

And from the newsdesk at the corporate sandbagging headquarters...a new situation occurred in my former Tuesday league...apparently the guy that took 2nd place (and about $900) at sweeps...was a 200+ average bowler that during last season had a league average in the 150s.

So, when I went to visit my old team and collect my massive $33 winnings from Sweeps (I had to leave and go bowl in my 2nd league while they gave out the money), they told me that because of that guy...this season there is a new rule; something to the effect that, going into sweeps, a person cannot average more than 15 pins lower than the season before.

It amazes me how many new rules we keep coming up with to try and defeat sandbaggers...yet it's completely ineffective.

Iceman....if you weren't busy advocating snake oil as a treatment for cancer, measles, and the common cold...I'm sure you'd be here joining me in the condemnation of cheaters and sandbaggers everywhere!!! Booooo!! to them!

That's pretty comical.

No matter what the rules are, dishonest people will always find a way to cheat the system.

There's a guy in my house who is notorious for cheating, and quite honestly, he's good at doing it. He'll never throw 150 and magically average 235 in tournaments. But, he'll purposely throw the wrong ball for a series (or the wrong line), dump a 10-pin shot in the gutter, but appear normal to most people. Then, in tournaments, he's like a machine.....and laughs about it. He's never admitted to cheating, but everyone knows it but can't pin him on it (pun intended).

[Aslan]

The bottom line solution is to become a good enough bowler to bowl in scratch leagues. But I figure you need an average of at least 193 to even have a chance of being competitive in those leagues...probably closer to 223. And I'm probably 1-5 years away (if ever) from getting to that level (193-223).

[billf]

Look into it. Our scratch league is 170 to sign up. This year 185 is the lowest average in the league. We've also had years where it was lowered to 165 just to get enough bowlers.
To put it in perspective 233-235 usually leads the association. The association (men's) average is 162 with a median of 158.
Last season we went to an easier pattern resulted in 18 300 games by 9 different bowlers and 3 800 series by two different bowlers. A huge increase of our ten year average of one 300 game per season and four 800 series in that ten year period.

[Aslan]

Look into it. Our scratch league is 170 to sign up. This year 185 is the lowest average in the league. We've also had years where it was lowered to 165 just to get enough bowlers.


I bowled in a scratch sport shot league for a season and a half. And I wasn't the WORST bowler...but I wasn't the caliber that should have been bowling in that league. I averaged 149 (sport patterns) and if I didn't show up the team got 150.

When I look at tournaments, scratch leagues, higher money leagues, USBC Open, or even PBA tournaments...I don't just look at whether I could theoretically participate. I look at it like, "What do I need, where does my game need to be, where I could "compete" with these bowlers?" Not "win", not "dominate"...because then you'd never take the next step.

But I sort of learned that in my first two ABTA tournaments.... I'm not going to necessarily win, nor even always place or cash...but I literally had no chance to compete with those folks...even getting massive handicap. Same think with the USBC Open. I'd love to do it in 2016...probably my last year on the west coast...I think it's at the National Bowling Stadium where I've always wanted to bowl....BUT....my stupid easy pattern Wednesday league bumped my average up to 193...I now have NO SHOT of even competing...not in the upper division against the best bowlers in the country. And if I got NO SHOT...then it's like running a 5k "just for the experience".

But it's also very dependent on the league itself. There's a lot of nice scratch leagues during the day, a lot of senior players...and if you look at the score sheets...I could see myself joining those. Probably more like what you're talking about. Scratch but sort of casual and fun. What I'm talking about when I say "scratch leagues" are those $10,000 leagues where all the best bowlers in the area are all in trying to get a payout. 193-223 minimum to even think about something like that.