Surface Changes/Arsenal Question

[bobforsaken]

I've recently purchase a ball spinner and I've been able to bring all balls back to factory and really compare them. I bowl so much that I've never been able to keep the balls even close to like-new condition at the same time for a comparison. I found that the OOB Fusion is a tad stronger than the Marvel Pearl OOB and the Optimus wasn't as forgiving for me as the Marvel Pearl. So I've separated my balls as follows. Opinions and suggestions please. I'm a lower rev stroker. Usually targeting somewhere between the 8 and 15 board in a three game set. (with a breakpoint of 8 to 10) (This is with a 42 foot house shot)

More Oil Finish

Thug Unruly 2000
IQ Fusion 4000
Optimus 4000
Marvel Pearl 1500 Polish
Hyroad 1500 Polish
Hyroad Pearl 1500 Polish
Tropical Breeze 1500 Polish

Less Oil

My hope is either the Fusion or Optimus will be a nice step up if I find myself mixing strikes or coming in just a pinch weak after having to move left with the Marvel Pearl. Time will tell if that Theory works. I imagine which ball would depend on the area of the lane I'm playing.

[RobLV1]

A couple of comments:

First, the OOB finish that is put on a ball is based on the company's marketing department's perception of what surface will appeal to the MOST bowlers in the target market. I once did an evaluation of BTM ball reviews, and found that on an average, 60% of bowlers will have to change the surface to accommodate their style and the bowling center at which they bowl.

Second, the ball that you use does not depend on the line that you are playing. One of the most common errors that league bowlers make is to assume that a less aggressive ball requires a move to the right (for a right hander). It doesn't. One ball does not hook more than another, just sooner or later. When the line you are playing begins to dry up, you can often stay there for a few more frames by going to a ball that goes longer.

Finally, while a ball spinner is a great tool, the surface is not the only factor involved. If you really want to see the differences inherent in each ball based on cover material and core, then rather than trying to duplicate the OOB finish on all of them, put the same surface on all of them and see the differences without the influence of surface. From there, you should be able to come up with surfaces that work for you.

Personally, of the 13 balls in my current arsenal (I choose from them based on the center at which I am bowling), only one has the OOB finish. Everything else has been modified to fit my game, and often changed depending on the center where I am bowling.

[bobforsaken]

Thanks Rob. For the most part, with the exception of the Thug Unruly at 2000 (which fits me great) all the OOB for the rest of the balls were 1500 polish. I did bring them all up to 1500 polish and found the Optimus and Marvel were nearly identical but the Marvel gave me a bit more forgiveness so I kept it at 1500 polish. The IQ and Marvel are also very close with the IQ being a touch earlier and smoother. Less recovery for a leaked shot and less hold for a pulled shot. I guess to rephrase my question, I'm looking for surface changes to either the Optimus or Fusion to separate it a bit from the Marvel Pearl in a useful way. I tried 2000 with the fusion and it may be great for a sport pattern but on the house shot it was useless to me. Too strong to play in the track and not enough recovery for playing deep. The Optimus at 4000 still has the jury out.

My experience tonight was an example of what I feel I'm missing. I wasn't rolling it particularly well. My first game with the Unruly was in the 220's... Game Two it forced me inside a bit.. I made a 2 and 1 move but I was blowing past the 9 pin. I moved the the Marvel and finished out that game with a 196. The 3rd game I stuck with the Marvel and was hitting the pocket but leaving a bunch of 10 Pins. I missed my opportunity to try the Fusion or Optimus. I was frankly wasn't confident enough to make a ball change but I have a feeling that the Optimus with its 1500 Polish may have been just what the doctor ordered but it was sitting at 4000 in my locker. I also neglected to make smaller changes to my alignment that I wish I had done. (moving back a few inches for example) Instead I tried playing a steeper angle but just couldn't get it to settle in right. I ground out a 176.

So with the Optimus, Marvel Pearl, and IQ Fusion being so close, i'm looking for some suggestions of how to separate them and maybe complement each other.

I think I'm going to spend the next week with those three balls and try to see how they relate so I can have more confidence in changing between them. I may end up putting the Optimus back to 1500 Polish because the slight difference between it and the Marvel pearl may be a good one two punch when I'm lined up but not carrying. The Fusion may better suited for a sport pattern where I need to be more exact want more control than recovery.

[RobLV1]

Okay, so here's my question:

The Thug Unruly, IQ Fusion, Optimus, and Marvel Pearl all have low rg's of 2.51 or lower. When you started leaving all the ten pins (I'd be willing to bet they were weak tens), why not go to one of your higher rg balls? These "weaker" balls don't hook less, they just hook later, conserving the energy to allow you to carry the corners.

[bobforsaken]

Okay, so here's my question:

The Thug Unruly, IQ Fusion, Optimus, and Marvel Pearl all have low rg's of 2.51 or lower. When you started leaving all the ten pins (I'd be willing to bet they were weak tens), why not go to one of your higher rg balls? These "weaker" balls don't hook less, they just hook later, conserving the energy to allow you to carry the corners.

Forgive my ignorance.. I'm not sure if they were weak 10's or not. My eyes are not quick enough to catch the 6 pin and what it was doing. I do not believe the balls were rolling out by any means. As you've stated before.. I'm a lower Rev player so the RG numbers don't effect my ball motion that much. (If your assumption that it was a weak 10 because of the lower RG Balls) My assumption based on the ball motion was that if anything it was not getting into a roll. I was attempting to get the ball to face up to the pocket which was my thought about going to the optimus which reads just a pinch earlier. When I tried to increase the angle and use more of the Dry it definitely faced up to the pocket and blew through. I left a greek church and a 9 pin when trying that. Again.. I probably should have just moved back on the approach or decreased my AOR a bit to get the ball to pick up a touch earlier but didn't think of it until after.

As to your original question.. My other ball I had with me was a Hyroad Pearl. It may have been a good move to go with that but it would have involved me moving back right and finding my shot. I wasn't confident enough to know how to change to that ball from where I was with the Marvel Pearl to make that change during the game. Something else I need to learn.

[RobLV1]

Bobforsaken: The low rev player is more affected by the low rg than is a high rev player, particularly one who throws a slower ball speed. The most common mistake that I see lower rev league bowlers make is using a ball that has too low of an rg for their style and the line they are playing because they think that a ball that hooks earlier hooks more. It doesn't. A higher rg ball will hold off on the roll phase till the ball gets far enough down the lane for it to be at its maximum energy rather than already losing energy. I think you are looking for roll out, but not looking for when the roll phase starts - the point at which the ball is at its maximum in terms of energy.

For a visual demonstration of rg (radius of gyration), look at the figure skater in the attached link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQLtcEAG9v0. Note that when the skaters arms are extended (larger radius of gyration) her body has to work hard to spin, so she spins more slowly. When her arms are tucked in (smaller radius of gyration) she spins faster. The same is true of bowling balls. When the ball has to work harder to "rev up" it gets into the roll phase later, retaining maximum energy for the pins.

[bobforsaken]

Bobforsaken: The low rev player is more affected by the low rg than is a high rev player, particularly one who throws a slower ball speed. The most common mistake that I see lower rev league bowlers make is using a ball that has too low of an rg for their style and the line they are playing because they think that a ball that hooks earlier hooks more. It doesn't. A higher rg ball will hold off on the roll phase till the ball gets far enough down the lane for it to be at its maximum energy rather than already losing energy. I think you are looking for roll out, but not looking for when the roll phase starts - the point at which the ball is at its maximum in terms of energy.

For a visual demonstration of rg (radius of gyration), look at the figure skater in the attached link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQLtcEAG9v0. Note that when the skaters arms are extended (larger radius of gyration) her body has to work hard to spin, so she spins more slowly. When her arms are tucked in (smaller radius of gyration) she spins faster. The same is true of bowling balls. When the ball has to work harder to "rev up" it gets into the roll phase later, retaining maximum energy for the pins.

I understand RG, I'm just not sure why someone who imparts a higher rev rate would be more or less effected by the RG value. I could have sworn in another thread you had mentioned that RG values don't really effect lower rev players... but I may be mistaken.

Well I was able to get back on the same pair before anyone else used them this afternoon. Playing the same line with the same ball (marvel pearl) I was getting much of the same result. I did try my higher RG ball (Hyroad pearl) and was able to hit pocket but got a lot of deflection. (hit during hook phase). I also tried my Optimus and didn't have much luck either. Trying the same line with the Fusion ended up with much the same result. Had a bit of success that was short lived by reducing my Axis of Rotation. With the exception of the Higher RG Hyroad all the balls seem to have plenty of energy at the pins and I can see the roll is occurring just before entering the pocket.

Finally I threw it out the dry at more of an angle (a 2 with my feet left, 1 with my eyes RIGHT) move using the Fusion and started stringing strikes and ended with a 244. The issue, it appears, was entry angle not energy loss. I hadn't tried a move that extreme during the previous evening but it looks like what I needed was more angle and more friction. Out of curiosity I did try to throw the Marvel pearl on the last frame of that game it did hit pocket with plenty of energy but was a pinch high and left a 4 pin.

I'm so angry with myself. I had been bowling so well a few weeks back by using a breakpoint closer to the gutter instead of my usual 9-11 board area at the end of the pattern. However two weeks ago I was bit with a terrible week trying to do so because (i believe) the El Paso pattern was on the pair during the week before being replaced by the house shot for the league and I think the outsides were still wetter than normal. That week the only shot I could make was a breakpoint around 11 and had carry issues like I did last night. I let that experience completely change everything I was doing that was giving me success.

[RobLV1]

What I said was that differential seems to have less of an effect on low rev players than it does on high rev players. Low rg, however, has more of an effect on low rev players than it does on high rev players.

[bobforsaken]

What I said was that differential seems to have less of an effect on low rev players than it does on high rev players. Low rg, however, has more of an effect on low rev players than it does on high rev players.

OK.. thanks. As for the original question the Fusion at 4000 seems to give me a nice step down from the Unruly and gives me a nice controllable motion. I put the Optimus back to 1500 Polish and will spend the week and weekend trying to see how they differ and if they can be played off of each other as is or with a surface change.

One thought I had was to raise the polish of the Optimus to Royal Compound or Royal Shine (2500 or 5000 polish) to see if I can get it to push longer and be more angular than the marvel. Thoughts?

[Amyers]

OK.. thanks. As for the original question the Fusion at 4000 seems to give me a nice step down from the Unruly and gives me a nice controllable motion. I put the Optimus back to 1500 Polish and will spend the week and weekend trying to see how they differ and if they can be played off of each other as is or with a surface change.

One thought I had was to raise the polish of the Optimus to Royal Compound or Royal Shine (2500 or 5000 polish) to see if I can get it to push longer and be more angular than the marvel. Thoughts?

Bob with the Optimus and the Marvel Pearl you pretty much have a duplicate of the same ball if you want to differentiate them your pretty much going to need to sand one to really see a difference. My suggestion whichever one you like the least sand it down to about 2k and try it out if you like it keep it if you don't get rid of it and replace it with something else.

If you replace the polish on the optimus your just moving it back even closer to your marvel pearl. You would most likely have better luck changing the underlying grit than changing the polish but I have my doubts that either will really separate the balls much.

[RobLV1]

OK.. thanks. As for the original question the Fusion at 4000 seems to give me a nice step down from the Unruly and gives me a nice controllable motion. I put the Optimus back to 1500 Polish and will spend the week and weekend trying to see how they differ and if they can be played off of each other as is or with a surface change.

One thought I had was to raise the polish of the Optimus to Royal Compound or Royal Shine (2500 or 5000 polish) to see if I can get it to push longer and be more angular than the marvel. Thoughts?

Two thoughts here:

First, and I realize that this sounds kinda nit-picky, but it's really not, is for you to try not to think of any ball as a "step down" from any other ball (or step up, for that matter). Balls are not weak or strong, they are just different. With the way we are in are society, why would we want to use anything that's considered weak?

Secondly, I think that Amyers hit the nail on the head with changing the grit under the polish to get more separation between the balls.

[bobforsaken]

Two thoughts here:

First, and I realize that this sounds kinda nit-picky, but it's really not, is for you to try not to think of any ball as a "step down" from any other ball (or step up, for that matter). Balls are not weak or strong, they are just different. With the way we are in are society, why would we want to use anything that's considered weak?

Secondly, I think that Amyers hit the nail on the head with changing the grit under the polish to get more separation between the balls.

I understand.. I've read many of your articles.. I see the ball "strength" as how much oil it requires to read the midlanes properly and achieve roll at the proper time without rolling out. saying "step down" is easier than saying "a ball that I can move to when the thug unruly begins reading to early, and I need to extend the skid length" That is also what I'm trying to accomplish between the Optimus and Marvel Pearl. I'm not trying to get a ton of separation. Like with my 10 pin problem the other day I really just needed something to enter the hook phase a touch later but not as late as the Hyroad Pearl. (Not because its "weak" but because the volume of oil was too great to read the midlane until too late which resulted in hitting during the hook phase).

I believe naturally thy Optimus and Marvel are very close and the Optimus does read a pinch earlier. I really think the Fusion has that area covered so I"m thinking of having something just a little bit below that reads a bit later. What I may end up doing is keeping the Optimus at 1500 polish and Moving the Marvel to 4000 to create that separation. So it would be Unruly (4000), Fusion (4000), Marvel (4000), Optimus (1500 Polish), Hyroad (4000, or polish?), Hyroad Pearl (1500 Polish), Tropical Breeze (1500 Polish)

On paper it looks good to me. In terms of experiece, when I had the Marvel at 4000 before it was very good for me and still game me lots of length. The optimus at 4000 just seemed to have its angularity tamed way too much. This may be partially due to the layout which was done when my PAP was 5.75 x .75 up . (it is now 3.5 x 0 up)

[Amyers]

Whichever ball you would like to be more angular try 2000 grit for 30 seconds and 4000 grit for 20 seconds than light polish for 20 seconds using Storm Step 2 or similar. I've had some friends who used this on similar balls and really liked it. Do realize as you make this change the ball will read a little later and handle a little less oil.

[bobforsaken]

Whichever ball you would like to be more angular try 2000 grit for 30 seconds and 4000 grit for 20 seconds than light polish for 20 seconds using Storm Step 2 or similar. I've had some friends who used this on similar balls and really liked it. Do realize as you make this change the ball will read a little later and handle a little less oil.

Yes.. that's my goal. So if I understand you correctly doing the full steps of resurface 500, 1000, 2000, 4000, step two would react differently than the same ball doing just 2000, 4000, and step two? (with the second ball reacting a little later down the lane) Albeit this difference may be slight, I was under the impression that the final sand and polish would really effect the reaction and that the prior steps were more just to take out imperfections in the ball without spending 20 minutes with a 4000 grit pad. I guess I thought this because the "refinish" steps are just the last steps, where as the "resurface" steps are the whole gambit.

It makes sense in a way that 500 would give you deeper valleys that the rest of the sanding steps won't totally wipe away And those "peaks" just end up getting sharpened as you go up to finer grits.

[Amyers]

Yes.. that's my goal. So if I understand you correctly doing the full steps of resurface 500, 1000, 2000, 4000, step two would react differently than the same ball doing just 2000, 4000, and step two? (with the second ball reacting a little later down the lane) Albeit this difference may be slight, I was under the impression that the final sand and polish would really effect the reaction and that the prior steps were more just to take out imperfections in the ball without spending 20 minutes with a 4000 grit pad. I guess I thought this because the "refinish" steps are just the last steps, where as the "resurface" steps are the whole gambit.

It makes sense in a way that 500 would give you deeper valleys that the rest of the sanding steps won't totally wipe away And those "peaks" just end up getting sharpened as you go up to finer grits.

I think you answered your own question here. Each step puts its own set of grooves in the surface So if you start with your base layer at 2000 instead of 500 you get shallower grooves. The step 2 polish is a little less glossy than some of the others royal compound from Brunswick is similar. I tend not to use the real shiny polishes on balls with higher surface numbers finishes because they get too squirty on oil.

We are talking small differences here but sometimes those matter.