Importance of Surface

[RobLV1]

Most bowlers believe that surface accounts for 75% of ball reaction. I'm one of very few who don't. I would like to ask that each of you set aside everything that you have had drummed into your heads for many years, and just think about one thing logically. Back in the eighties when then only elements in a bowling ball were the surface and the static weights, we were told that surface accounted for 75% of ball reaction. Now, despite the addition of dynamically weighted cores that create huge imbalances within the ball, we are told that surface accounts for 75% of ball reaction. To me, this makes no sense, and, as Judge Judy often says, if it doesn't make sense, it's not true. Thoughts?

[fokai73]

I thought back in the day it was stated 90/10. Then over the years it changed as weight blocks got teched out to the current 75/25 as you stated.

I think it was Revolution I or Revolutions II - Chip Zielke that I read it was 90/10...

Anyway, surface is a major factor in ball reactions first then the core.

[Amyers]

I seen something from Mo Pinel not too long ago. "Surface controls the reaction on the front 80% of the lane. Core controls the reaction on the back 20% of the lane." Surface is very important but I know which portion of the lanes the pins are on too. ;)

[bowl1820]

Most all the information shown about ball motion has shown that surface roughness and coverstock properties, are the major factors in ball motion with ball dynamics affecting ball motion to a lesser degree.

Now whether or not 75 percent is the exact percentage, I don't think it exactly matters. It's just saying that surface is playing more of a roll in ball motion than other factors.

And while dynamic cores etc. may play more of a part in ball motion today than they use too, that does really lessen the degree the surface plays in ball motion today.

[bowl1820]

I thought back in the day it was stated 90/10. Then over the years it changed as weight blocks got teched out to the current 75/25 as you stated.

I think it was Revolution I or Revolutions II - Chip Zielke that I read it was 90/10...

Anyway, surface is a major factor in ball reactions first then the core.

In Revolutions II (from 1998) - Chip Zielke listed it as follows:

1. Coverstock/Surface Preparation 65-70% (Chip said this was the industry consensus at the time)

2. Weight Block/Core Design 15-20%
3. Dynamic Balance (layout) 10-15%
4. Balance Holes 0-5%
5. Mass Bias 0-5%
6. Static Weights 0-5%

[djp1080]

Yesterday I found the lanes not surfaced for our senior league. Brought a Storm IQ Tour Nano, Reign On and Optimus. Started with the Nano for about a game and a half. I was further left than I ever recall being. The ball could have been rolling out, but a couple shots looked almost like the ball was coming back at me that it crossed the lane that hard. I switched to the Optimus and finished out with it. It was making hard moves at the breakpoint, but it made it further down the lane which made it a bit better than the Nano. Looking at the specs it looks as though the RG of both balls are on the low end and differentials are higher on the Optimus than the Nano. In this case the Nano's surface was dominant getting into a roll. Wish I had either a Lights Out or Tropical Breeze with me as a back up rather than the Reign On. I'll have one of those with me next time just in case... :)

[foreverincamo]

I've seen enough videos where someone takes their ball and videos it as they go thru surface changes . Starting around 500 grit, and work their way up to 4000 grit. The higher the grit, the father down the lane the ball went before turning into the pocket.

[RobLV1]

Looking at the responses so far, I feel that I have to clarify. I've never said that surface isn't the most important factor in ball reaction. It is. One of the main reasons that it is is because, once the ball is drilled, it's the only aspect of the ball that can be readily changed. I get that. My problem with the whole "surface is 75% of ball reaction" thing is that many bowlers use it as an excuse for not learning about the core numbers. Whether it's because they can't learn about them, or THINK that they can't learn about them, they use the memorized 75% phrase to rationalize the fact that they don't understand cores.

[Amyers]

Looking at the responses so far, I feel that I have to clarify. I've never said that surface isn't the most important factor in ball reaction. It is. One of the main reasons that it is is because, once the ball is drilled, it's the only aspect of the ball that can be readily changed. I get that. My problem with the whole "surface is 75% of ball reaction" thing is that many bowlers use it as an excuse for not learning about the core numbers. Whether it's because they can't learn about them, or THINK that they can't learn about them, they use the memorized 75% phrase to rationalize the fact that they don't understand cores.

I think most serious bowlers who care know the basics higher Rg farther down the lane later roll. low Rg hooks sooner earlier roll. Differential lower numbers flare less (which you've marginalized for average bowlers in the past). The crowd that buys a ball because it's the pretty one or because of the name you're not going to change them.

Now if you want to get into the hard core of drilled differentials and the more esoteric aspects of ball drilling I will admit I get a little glassy eyed myself. Not sure if I'll ever be advanced enough for that stuff to matter or if it really does make much difference.

I see just as many bowler pick the wrong ball by looking at the core numbers without understanding the differences in coverstock and surface make to it then I do bowlers picking the ball by cover surface and ending up with something different than expected. Now if you really want to find what I think is crazy check out the bowlers who believe there's much difference between a pearl and a polished solid.

[RobLV1]

Part of the challenge of posting questions/responses on a forum like this is the wide range of experiences that are brought here by the posters.


I think most serious bowlers who care know the basics higher Rg farther down the lane later roll. low Rg hooks sooner earlier roll. Differential lower numbers flare less (which you've marginalized for average bowlers in the past I continue to believe this and I have proved it with my own bowling - as my rev rate has increased, so has the impact of the differential on the flare that I can expect). The crowd that buys a ball because it's the pretty one or because of the name you're not going to change them. New to bowling players have enough to worry about without adding core and/or surface to their confusion.

Now if you want to get into the hard core of drilled differentials and the more esoteric aspects of ball drilling I will admit I get a little glassy eyed myself. Not sure if I'll ever be advanced enough for that stuff to matter or if it really does make much difference. The main thing to remember about drillings is that they change the core numbers, and the shape of the reaction. As long as you pick two or three drillings that work for you, you really don't have to worry about them.

I see just as many bowler pick the wrong ball by looking at the core numbers without understanding the differences in coverstock and surface make to it then I do bowlers picking the ball by cover surface and ending up with something different than expected. Now if you really want to find what I think is crazy check out the bowlers who believe there's much difference between a pearl and a polished solid. This is an example in the other direction. More knowledgeable bowers who play on different parts of the lane know that there is quite a difference between a pearl and a polished solid. While they often have comparable lengths, the way they react to oil and friction is completely different.

[Amyers]

I think most serious bowlers who care know the basics higher Rg farther down the lane later roll. low Rg hooks sooner earlier roll. Differential lower numbers flare less (which you've marginalized for average bowlers in the past I continue to believe this and I have proved it with my own bowling - as my rev rate has increased, so has the impact of the differential on the flare that I can expect). Wasn't disagreeing with you about this just stating one of the supposedly important core related numbers you yourself have stated is inconsequential to the average bowler

Now if you really want to find what I think is crazy check out the bowlers who believe there's much difference between a pearl and a polished solid. This is an example in the other direction. More knowledgeable bowers who play on different parts of the lane know that there is quite a difference between a pearl and a polished solid. That they often result in comparable lengths, the way they react to oil and friction is completely different. I will admit I'm not comfortable on the extreme inside (beyond 4th arrow) or the extreme outside (Outside of the first arrow) but I think I cover more of the lane than most bowlers I see. Really if we accept that they offer comparable lengths and we take Mo Pinel's opinion that the core dictates performance on the last 20% of the lanes as fact (I'm sure people will disagree with that) How much room is left for the difference to be? I would love to see a throwbot study with the Hyroad pearl, solid, and hybrid all finished to the same surface so people could really see how much difference their truly is. I can guarantee you it's less then the average bowlers miss area.

It's not just new bowlers who pick this way I know very experienced bowlers who buy balls because of the color scheme or because the last one they bought from that company is good. How many "experienced" bowlers do you know who have bought balls only to find out they weren't what they thought when a few hours of research would have led them to a different conclusion? I'm sure it's a bunch. My only real point here is you believe the problem most bowlers have with ball selection is underappreciating the core dynamics. Maybe your right but personally myself most bowlers even experienced ones do little to no research on any aspect of their balls and the few that do probably look at the core numbers more than anything else what I see is they often fail to realize how the cover stock and surface will effect what they expect to see based off of those core numbers.

[NewToBowling]

Most bowlers who have a pretty consistent release and has their PAP measured and has a good PSO that will suggest them balls will probably not need or care for any of the RG/Differential numbers nor coverstocks. Sure one may hook or read the lane earlier but the majority would have no idea it does. The difference is pretty minuscule to the untrained eye.

[Jessiewoodard57]

Yesterday I found the lanes not surfaced for our senior league. Brought a Storm IQ Tour Nano, Reign On and Optimus. Started with the Nano for about a game and a half. I was further left than I ever recall being. The ball could have been rolling out, but a couple shots looked almost like the ball was coming back at me that it crossed the lane that hard. I switched to the Optimus and finished out with it. It was making hard moves at the breakpoint, but it made it further down the lane which made it a bit better than the Nano. Looking at the specs it looks as though the RG of both balls are on the low end and differentials are higher on the Optimus than the Nano. In this case the Nano's surface was dominant getting into a roll. Wish I had either a Lights Out or Tropical Breeze with me as a back up rather than the Reign On. I'll have one of those with me next time just in case... :)

Like you Tuesday night I watched the tech oil the lanes just be for league play and there might have been 20 to 22 feet of pattern super short. I started practice with my storm Ride then switched to my Radical Score both balls I was as far left as I could be and still roll my lane. After 20 ft the ball would snap into a hard left turn so I put them away and picked up my Taboo Spare ball which comes into play on dry lanes from time to time. The first 2 balls I rolled where strikes. I had a decent night using a ball that I might have thrown 20 times in the past 3 months. That plastic space ball hooked like a champ and when I came off the back of the ball it rolled nice and straight. I have a new found fondness for that ball and to think I almost gave it away weeks ago. BTW where in central Florida do you bowl?

[Amyers]

Most bowlers who have a pretty consistent release and has their PAP measured and has a good PSO that will suggest them balls will probably not need or care for any of the RG/Differential numbers nor coverstocks. Sure one may hook or read the lane earlier but the majority would have no idea it does. The difference is pretty minuscule to the untrained eye.

I wouldn't put all my eggs in the basket of believing everything the PSO tells you about purchasing bowling balls. At the very least their perceptions are colored by their own favorites in some cases more often they are a salesperson hawking the next great thing regardless of how it fits your game. Not saying their aren't great ones out there but I see way to many bowlers with ball choices that just don't make sense to have to much faith in them. My current PSO I believe has a good handle on the Hammer and Brunswick balls if I want something else it's going to be up to me.

if you can't tell the difference between a Hyroad pearl and a Hypercell going down the lane you need to spend more time studying bowlers and their bowling balls.

[DukeDi]

Check out Video Below pretty dramatic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khUITPlM5-Y

[Tony]

Check out Video Below pretty dramatic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khUITPlM5-Y

That was a nice illustration of how the ball surface can change the reaction !

[RobLV1]

I agree that it was pretty dramatic, and no one is disputing the importance of the surface. I woul still love to see a comparison of two balls, starting with the same surface, but one ball has a low rg and the other a high rg. I wonder if you could actually get the high rg ball to roll sooner than the low rg ball, if the high rg ball had surface, and the low rg didn't.

[Tony]

I agree that it was pretty dramatic, and no one is disputing the importance of the surface. I woul still love to see a comparison of two balls, starting with the same surface, but one ball has a low rg and the other a high rg. I wonder if you could actually get the high rg ball to roll sooner than the low rg ball, if the high rg ball had surface, and the low rg didn't.
I agree, it would be a very interesting comparison to see the effect of RG, and see what you could do by applying surfaces !

[Amyers]

I agree that it was pretty dramatic, and no one is disputing the importance of the surface. I woul still love to see a comparison of two balls, starting with the same surface, but one ball has a low rg and the other a high rg. I wonder if you could actually get the high rg ball to roll sooner than the low rg ball, if the high rg ball had surface, and the low rg didn't.

Find a dv8 ruckus and compare that to a storm Optimus guarantee you the ruckus rolls first. Want to make it even clearer hit the ruckus with a 1000 grit pad. The ruckus can be pretty early with some surface.

[bobforsaken]

Chris Barnes said something to the effect that the ball goes about 3 feet further down lane for every .04 difference in RG. I don't know if that is true or even if I'm quoting it correctly.. however.. Look at the Hyroad and IQ tour Fusion (both with the R2S Hybrid Coverstock)
Fusion: RG: 2.49 Diff: 0.29
Hyroad: RG 2.57 Diff: .046

With the same surface I find it very hard to believe that the Fusion is starting up 6 feet earlier. They are extremely similar with the difference in shape seemingly being the hyroad slower transitioning.. but not later. (maybe it is later but very hard to see) However.. I can see a HUGE difference in the Fusion at 2000 Grit vs they Hyroad at 1500Polish.

I know this is an anecdote and in no way is an attempt to dispute the original poster's point about not learning about RG numbers etc..... however in reality the surface has a much more obvious effect whether the percentage is correct or not.. If I need a ball to pick up earlier I would reach for a higher surface ball before I would bet the Lower RG ball would accomplish what I need it to by picking up a bit earlier.

[RobLV1]

I think that a lot of the confusion comes from many bowler's inability to distinguish between hook and roll. Because the ball begins to hook when the rotational energy created by the bowlers release and the forward energy created by the momentum of the bowlers approach and armswing, friction plays a much bigger part in determining when the ball hooks. The resistance created by the rg measurement determines when the ball rolls.

[Aslan]

Hopefully...if I'm understanding this discussion at all...which I probably don't....hopefully I can make a point for Rob here:

I am the POSTER BOY for having low RPMs and trying to make up for that deficiency by using surface. My first 3 balls in my arsenal are surfaced as follows:

Bullet Train: OOB: 2500 neat. Current surface: 500 abralon.
Hammer Rhythm: OOB = 2000 abralon. Current surface: 1000 abralon.
Columbia300 Encounter: OOB = 2000 abralon. Current surface: sanded to 1000 grit wet/dry then 1000 abralon.

Now...this "cheating" with surface manipulation HAS allowed me to get to the pocket with at least some angle. Without these surface changes...with my slightly elevated speed and approximately 250rpms...I was missing right constantly before changing the surfaces.

BUT...it has had some negative effects as well...and this goes along with (I think) what Rob is talking about with the hook/roll phase. The downside of having these balls sanded so much is...the ball hooks SOONER not MORE. So it helps get the ball to the pocket...but by the time it gets there...it's often "rolled out" and I get a lot of pocket hits where the ball deflects to the right because it just doesn't have the carry energy left and virtually no break-point angle.

I actually get MORE angle and better power into the pocket using my two polished balls...the other Encounter and the Slingshot...because at least some of the energy is stored up and able to be released when the ball encounters friction. The PROBLEM with those two balls is...on fresh oil...until the pattern breaks down considerably...I just don't have the rev rate to get those balls into the pocket...not on a fresh pattern with medium (or higher) volume/length.

Case in point:
I practiced yesterday and had to stop using the Bullet Train after 1.5 games because it couldn't stay right of the headpin. It WASN'T that the ball was too strong...hitting the breakpoint...and missing left. It was that the ball at 500 abralon was reading the lanes too soon...and rolling out straight into the headpin. A move left and the ball missed the headpin right. A move right and the ball encounters even drier conditions even earlier and still goes through the headpin but with even less energy.

Rob is right...most bowlers...including myself....have a hard time seeing when that ball transitions from skid to hook and especially from hook to roll. And in today's game, that's a very, very important concept to understand...because the balls aren't made to go out, make a big arc, and come back into the pocket. The balls nowadays are made to "snap" when they encounter friction. Sanding them actually takes away that "snap"...and the ball ends up "flopping" into the pocket like a wet noodle. On heavier oil, or very long/tough patterns...with no rev rate...you may not have a choice. But that doesn't make it "ideal".

[bobforsaken]

I think that a lot of the confusion comes from many bowler's inability to distinguish between hook and roll. Because the ball begins to hook when the rotational energy created by the bowlers release and the forward energy created by the momentum of the bowlers approach and armswing, friction plays a much bigger part in determining when the ball hooks. The resistance created by the rg measurement determines when the ball rolls.

You may have just blown my mind.. I thought RG had an impact on when it hooked not how quickly it got into a roll. So if I understand you right, the Higher RG Ball will have a longer hook phase given the same layout ? (Which would explain why given the same surface the Low RG IQ Fusion seems to have a more skid/snap feel than the Hyroad which shares its same coverstock.)

[Mike White]

You may have just blown my mind.. I thought RG had an impact on when it hooked not how quickly it got into a roll. So if I understand you right, the Higher RG Ball will have a longer hook phase given the same layout ? (Which would explain why given the same surface the Low RG IQ Fusion seems to have a more skid/snap feel than the Hyroad which shares its same coverstock.)

He blew your mind with that incoherent comment?

He couldn't even keep the thought straight to himself.

[Mike White]

Hopefully...if I'm understanding this discussion at all...which I probably don't....hopefully I can make a point for Rob here:

I am the POSTER BOY for having low RPMs and trying to make up for that deficiency by using surface. My first 3 balls in my arsenal are surfaced as follows:

Bullet Train: OOB: 2500 neat. Current surface: 500 abralon.
Hammer Rhythm: OOB = 2000 abralon. Current surface: 1000 abralon.
Columbia300 Encounter: OOB = 2000 abralon. Current surface: sanded to 1000 grit wet/dry then 1000 abralon.

Now...this "cheating" with surface manipulation HAS allowed me to get to the pocket with at least some angle. Without these surface changes...with my slightly elevated speed and approximately 250rpms...I was missing right constantly before changing the surfaces.



Before you sanded the ball, it went in the direction you threw it much further down the lane.

Unfortunately that wasn't a good thing. If you threw it directly at the 3 pin, it went directly at the 3 pin.

If you threw it right of that, it went right of that. Again, not a good thing.

After sanding the ball it changed direction some.

Now when you threw it at the 3 pin it hooked up until it hit the oil line, held the line, and hooked a little more to reach the pocket.

If you missed a little right, it still hooked back to the oil line, so you hit the pocket the same.

It wasn't until you missed right by much more that you missed the pocket.

Now the opposite, when you pulled the ball left of target, the oil held the ball back, but it didn't cause the ball to rev up the same.

Therefore it didn't hook that little bit at the end.

Unless the pull resulted in high flush, you most likely left a weak 10, or worse.

The sanding of the ball was only part of what helped you find the pocket.

The wall of oil was the other part.

Take away the wall, and the sanding would make the ball hook left too often.

[Amyers]

You may have just blown my mind.. I thought RG had an impact on when it hooked not how quickly it got into a roll. So if I understand you right, the Higher RG Ball will have a longer hook phase given the same layout ? (Which would explain why given the same surface the Low RG IQ Fusion seems to have a more skid/snap feel than the Hyroad which shares its same coverstock.)

No that isn't really what he said RG does not control the length of the hook phase only when the hook phase begins. How long the hook phase lasts is determined by the drilling of the ball and the differential.

[bobforsaken]

No that isn't really what he said RG does not control the length of the hook phase only when the hook phase begins. How long the hook phase lasts is determined by the drilling of the ball and the differential.


That is how I interpreted the following " friction plays a much bigger part in determining when the ball hooks. The resistance created by the rg measurement determines when the ball rolls."

So if the phases are skid transition hook transition roll... based on the statement above I interpreted it as either slowing down the hook phase or the transition phase before the roll. I understand the drilling is what can lengthen or shorten the hook phase (as well as other ball motion factors), but isn't that saying the same thing? Isn't the drilling used on a ball accomplishing different RG's and differentials? In other words, to slow the transition from hook to roll choose a drilling that give the ball its maximum RG (given the position of the weight block compared to your PAP). To create a more angular and quick hook to roll transition, choose a drilling that lowers the RG.

[bobforsaken]

"Using a smaller angle between the pin to PAP line and the VAL (minimum of 20º) will lower the RG and increase the total differential of the drilled ball. These changes will result in the ball revving up faster and transitioning quicker. Conversely, using a larger angle between the pin to PAP line and the VAL (maximum of approximately 70º) will raise the RG and lower the total differential of the drilled ball. These changes will result in the ball revving up and transitioning slower. "


From http://www.bowlingball.com/BowlVersity/how-to-layout-a-bowling-ball-dual-angle-layout-technique

[Amyers]

That is how I interpreted the following " friction plays a much bigger part in determining when the ball hooks. The resistance created by the rg measurement determines when the ball rolls."

So if the phases are skid transition hook transition roll... based on the statement above I interpreted it as either slowing down the hook phase or the transition phase before the roll. I understand the drilling is what can lengthen or shorten the hook phase (as well as other ball motion factors), but isn't that saying the same thing? Isn't the drilling used on a ball accomplishing different RG's and differentials? In other words, to slow the transition from hook to roll choose a drilling that give the ball its maximum RG (given the position of the weight block compared to your PAP). To create a more angular and quick hook to roll transition, choose a drilling that lowers the RG.

You nailed it Bob the RG determines where the ball will start to roll. The differential determines the length of the hook phase or how quickly the ball spends it rotational energy. With drilling you are altering both the RG and differential. It's a balancing game and the reason you need good quality PSO's. I don't believe that RG determines how angular the ball is other than ball is storing it's energy for longer. How angular a ball is determined more by cover strength, surface, and differential. A ball is also only capable of making the most of what a bowler puts into it.

I've always felt the Fusion was a little earlier than the Hyroad from what I have seen but the Fusion tends to cover more boards on the backend if that's what you mean.

[Amyers]

I think that a lot of the confusion comes from many bowler's inability to distinguish between hook and roll. Because the ball begins to hook when the rotational energy created by the bowlers release and the forward energy created by the momentum of the bowlers approach and armswing, friction plays a much bigger part in determining when the ball hooks. The resistance created by the rg measurement determines when the ball rolls.

SO are you saying you believe that balls skid, roll, hook and roll? I have always heard it described as skid, hook, and roll. I believe rotational energy starts to be used as soon as the ball stops skidding. I believe RG, surface and cover strength all combine to determine when the ball stops skidding and starts to hook. Of course the oil or lack there of depending on where the bowler places the ball plays a role also and the type of roll placed on the ball by the bowler can also effect where the ball will start to transition.

[RobLV1]

SO are you saying you believe that balls skid, roll, hook and roll? I have always heard it described as skid, hook, and roll. I believe rotational energy starts to be used as soon as the ball stops skidding. I believe RG, surface and cover strength all combine to determine when the ball stops skidding and starts to hook. Of course the oil or lack there of depending on where the bowler places the ball plays a role also and the type of roll placed on the ball by the bowler can also effect where the ball will start to transition.

No, I am also saying that the three primary phases of ball motion are skid, hook, and roll, in that order. The laws of physics says that an object remains in motion, going in the same direction, until it is acted upon by an equal an opposing force (this is paraphrasing to help understanding). When the ball is released by the bowler, the main energy is the forward motion that is generated by the footwork and armswing. While the ball is also rotating as a result of the bowler's release, the rotational energy is less than the forward energy until friction between the ball and the lane surface causes the ball to slow slightly, allowing the rotational energy to become equal to the forward energy, and causing the ball to begin to change direction (hook). With this in mind, it is easy to see that more surface on the bowling ball allows more friction sooner, and earlier hook. The roll phase is reached when the ball fully "revs up." As the resistance or lack of resistance created by the low rg measurement determines how hard the ball has to work to fully rev up, it is the roll phase that is primarily affected by the low RG. Is that a little clearer?

[bobforsaken]

No, I am also saying that the three primary phases of ball motion are skid, hook, and roll, in that order. The laws of physics says that an object remains in motion, going in the same direction, until it is acted upon by an equal an opposing force (this is paraphrasing to help understanding). When the ball is released by the bowler, the main energy is the forward motion that is generated by the footwork and armswing. While the ball is also rotating as a result of the bowler's release, the rotational energy is less than the forward energy until friction between the ball and the lane surface causes the ball to slow slightly, allowing the rotational energy to become equal to the forward energy, and causing the ball to begin to change direction (hook). With this in mind, it is easy to see that more surface on the bowling ball allows more friction sooner, and earlier hook. The roll phase is reached when the ball fully "revs up." As the resistance or lack of resistance created by the low rg measurement determines how hard the ball has to work to fully rev up, it is the roll phase that is primarily affected by the low RG. Is that a little clearer?

That is how I understood what you meant. I'm trying to take it a step further and maybe in error.. Since the Roll phase is not entered until the ball full "revs up" after starting the hook phase, and the Higher the RG, the longer it takes to rev up.... Is it true that the higher the RG the longer the ball stays in the hook phase. (since I'm assuming it hooks until it reaches the roll phase)

So Higher RG (after drilling) = more arcing shape. Lower RG (after drilling) = more angular.

[Amyers]

No, I am also saying that the three primary phases of ball motion are skid, hook, and roll, in that order. The laws of physics says that an object remains in motion, going in the same direction, until it is acted upon by an equal an opposing force (this is paraphrasing to help understanding). When the ball is released by the bowler, the main energy is the forward motion that is generated by the footwork and armswing. While the ball is also rotating as a result of the bowler's release, the rotational energy is less than the forward energy until friction between the ball and the lane surface causes the ball to slow slightly, allowing the rotational energy to become equal to the forward energy, and causing the ball to begin to change direction (hook). With this in mind, it is easy to see that more surface on the bowling ball allows more friction sooner, and earlier hook. The roll phase is reached when the ball fully "revs up." As the resistance or lack of resistance created by the low rg measurement determines how hard the ball has to work to fully rev up, it is the roll phase that is primarily affected by the low RG. Is that a little clearer?

This is clearer although I do believe my statement that Surface, RG, and Cover Strength in combination determine when the ball starts to roll is more accurate than simply stating that "the roll phase is primarily affected by the RG" you state yourself that " it is easy to see that more surface on the bowling ball allows more friction sooner, and earlier hook" it is the friction and I'll add cover strength or aggressiveness if you prefer determining when the roll phase actually begins not just the RG of the ball. I think we really need to learn to look at this holistically to get a better understanding of what ball motions we should really be looking to expect when we purchase a new ball.

[Mike White]

No, I am also saying that the three primary phases of ball motion are skid, hook, and roll, in that order. The laws of physics says that an object remains in motion, going in the same direction, until it is acted upon by an equal an opposing force (this is paraphrasing to help understanding). When the ball is released by the bowler, the main energy is the forward motion that is generated by the footwork and armswing. While the ball is also rotating as a result of the bowler's release, the rotational energy is less than the forward energy until friction between the ball and the lane surface causes the ball to slow slightly, allowing the rotational energy to become equal to the forward energy, and causing the ball to begin to change direction (hook). With this in mind, it is easy to see that more surface on the bowling ball allows more friction sooner, and earlier hook. The roll phase is reached when the ball fully "revs up." As the resistance or lack of resistance created by the low rg measurement determines how hard the ball has to work to fully rev up, it is the roll phase that is primarily affected by the low RG. Is that a little clearer?

Seems whenever you try to help understanding anything related to ball motion, you get it wrong.

an object remains in motion, going in the same direction, until it is acted upon by ANY force not inline with that motion.

A baseball pitcher throws a 100 mph fastball and the batter just barely makes contact with the ball.

Clearly the force the batter applied to the ball is much less than the pitcher, yet the ball changes direction.

Maybe it's just a foul tip, going a little up, or a little down, but it changed direction.

As soon as the bowling ball sees friction, it changes direction.

If the change of direction causes the ball to go back into a non friction area, the ball quits changing direction for a while.

Maybe the reason you think the ball doesn't hook until it's reved up is you've played so long on a walled up conditions.

[Amyers]

That is how I understood what you meant. I'm trying to take it a step further and maybe in error.. Since the Roll phase is not entered until the ball full "revs up" after starting the hook phase, and the Higher the RG, the longer it takes to rev up.... Is it true that the higher the RG the longer the ball stays in the hook phase. (since I'm assuming it hooks until it reaches the roll phase)

So Higher RG (after drilling) = more arcing shape. Lower RG (after drilling) = more angular.

It's the step farther where your going off course. You can easily find High RG balls that are angular and Low RG balls that are more arcing. I believe that Higher RG balls tended to be more of your skid/flip angular balls until recently. Now it seems either can fill that spot one of the issues with understanding modern bowling balls by trying to look at the numbers.

[Mike White]

"Using a smaller angle between the pin to PAP line and the VAL (minimum of 20º) will lower the RG and increase the total differential of the drilled ball. These changes will result in the ball revving up faster and transitioning quicker. Conversely, using a larger angle between the pin to PAP line and the VAL (maximum of approximately 70º) will raise the RG and lower the total differential of the drilled ball. These changes will result in the ball revving up and transitioning slower. "


From http://www.bowlingball.com/BowlVersity/how-to-layout-a-bowling-ball-dual-angle-layout-technique


The article when speaking about raising or lowering the RG with val angles, it's talking about the low RG of the ball, not the RG of the PAP.

On a symmetrical ball, the PIN to PAP distance selects the RG of the PAP, the drill angle, and the val angle don't change the RG of the pap.

On an asymmetrical ball, the PIN to PAP, and the drill angle select the RG of the PAP, not the VAL angle.

Obviously if you add an additional balance hole, you change the RG of the PAP.

[RobLV1]

This is clearer although I do believe my statement that Surface, RG, and Cover Strength in combination determine when the ball starts to roll is more accurate than simply stating that "the roll phase is primarily affected by the RG" you state yourself that " it is easy to see that more surface on the bowling ball allows more friction sooner, and earlier hook" it is the friction and I'll add cover strength or aggressiveness if you prefer determining when the roll phase actually begins not just the RG of the ball. I think we really need to learn to look at this holistically to get a better understanding of what ball motions we should really be looking to expect when we purchase a new ball.

I agree that getting a better understanding of ball motion is very important for all bowlers. The phases of ball motion happen very quickly and are very difficult to see. Communicating in short bursts about such a complex subject is difficult, if not nearly impossible. When I said that it is the roll phase that is primarily affect by the low rg, I was alluding to the fact that the low rg has little to do with when the hook phase begins, not that it is the only thing involved with determining when the ball begins to roll. I think that this is an important discussion for all of us who are interested in it, and I apologize if my involvement in it results in disparaging remarks from those who are only interested in being right about just about everything at the expense of the discussion.

[Amyers]

I agree that getting a better understanding of ball motion is very important for all bowlers. The phases of ball motion happen very quickly and are very difficult to see. Communicating in short bursts about such a complex subject is difficult, if not nearly impossible. When I said that it is the roll phase that is primarily affect by the low rg, I was alluding to the fact that the low rg has little to do with when the hook phase begins, not that it is the only thing involved with determining when the ball begins to roll. I think that this is an important discussion for all of us who are interested in it, and I apologize if my involvement in it results in disparaging remarks from those who are only interested in being right about just about everything at the expense of the discussion.

LOL This has been a great conversation and hopefully some who read this will at least pick up a few things to study up on myself included