10 Pin Leaves

[NewToBowling]

Yes, it's pretty frustrating. And honestly you really never know if you are going to knock down the 10 pin or not regardless of how good you hit the pocket. Hitting if flush will increase your chances of a strike but I've seen flush pocket hits that have left the 10 pin.

One could take 20 video samples of pro bowlers (or anyone) rolling seemingly perfect pocket shots and freeze frame right before ball hits the pocket. 10 are strikes, 10 are 10-pin leaves. Of the 20 samples I would venture that most would not be able to correctly identify all of them correctly.

Some times it's just back luck/pin carry.

[RobLV1]

Leaving the ten pin standing is never bad luck. It's a matter of entry angle and energy. If the angle is not correct, the result is a ringing ten. If the ball is not at it's peak in terms of energy when it enters the pocket, it's a weak ten. Ringing tens mean you are really close. Weak tens mean that you either need to move, or that you have the wrong ball in your hand.

[LyalC52]

weak hits leave 10 pins
watch where your ball drops off the deck, the closer to the 10 pin, the less likely it will carry

[Mike White]

Leaving the ten pin standing is never bad luck. It's a matter of entry angle and energy. If the angle is not correct, the result is a ringing ten. If the ball is not at it's peak in terms of energy when it enters the pocket, it's a weak ten. Ringing tens mean you are really close. Weak tens mean that you either need to move, or that you have the wrong ball in your hand.

This is logically incorrect.

What makes you think that when a ball is at the peak, it's only barely able to carry the 10 pin, while anything short of the peak will leave a weak 10.

Reality shows that the "peak" can be well beyond what is required to carry the 10 pin, and plenty below the peak will carry the 10 pin as well.

You've stated that my ball never rolls, and also stated that the ball isn't at it's peak unless it's rolling.

Therefore logically you're saying I never carry a 10 pin.

[RobLV1]

This is logically incorrect.

What makes you think that when a ball is at the peak, it's only barely able to carry the 10 pin, while anything short of the peak will leave a weak 10.

Reality shows that the "peak" can be well beyond what is required to carry the 10 pin, and plenty below the peak will carry the 10 pin as well.

You've stated that my ball never rolls, and also stated that the ball isn't at it's peak unless it's rolling.

Therefore logically you're saying I never carry a 10 pin.

Mike, please stop trying to make everything personal. It's not. My point is that ten pin leaves are not bad luck. They are caused by something. Once again you are bumping into trees and not seeing the forest. The forest is the fact that ten pins are not bad luck. The tree is that you don't agree with the detail that I had about 60 seconds to write to help someone understand something. I'm not trying to degrade you, regardless of how much you try to degrade me. I think that you are a pretty good bowler who may be able to become great if you would just put away your opinions and learn to use modern equipment. Think about the bowlers who we, as bowlers with more experience, are trying to help and put the pettiness aside. PLEASE!

[Mike White]

Mike, please stop trying to make everything personal. It's not. My point is that ten pin leaves are not bad luck. They are caused by something. Once again you are bumping into trees and not seeing the forest. The forest is the fact that ten pins are not bad luck. The tree is that you don't agree with the detail that I had about 60 seconds to write to help someone understand something. I'm not trying to degrade you, regardless of how much you try to degrade me. I think that you are a pretty good bowler who may be able to become great if you would just put away your opinions and learn to use modern equipment. Think about the bowlers who we, as bowlers with more experience, are trying to help and put the pettiness aside. PLEASE!

If you are trying to help people, you might start by not being wrong so often.

The 10 pin not being bad luck fits your believe system, but your reasoning only works for a subset of reality.

How consistent is a human supposed to be at 60 feet? 1 inch? 2 inches?, inside of that range, even a good shot can leave a 10 pin.

That's just bad luck, because any type of adjustment and it's more likely to get worse than better.

I guess you just don't understand the game of bowling before the advent of wall bowling.

[John Anderson]

If you are trying to help people, you might start by not being wrong so often.

The 10 pin not being bad luck fits your believe system, but your reasoning only works for a subset of reality.

How consistent is a human supposed to be at 60 feet? 1 inch? 2 inches?, inside of that range, even a good shot can leave a 10 pin.

That's just bad luck, because any type of adjustment and it's more likely to get worse than better.

I guess you just don't understand the game of bowling before the advent of wall bowling.

You are just being pessimistic here. It is not luck whether a ten pin falls or not. You either made the good shot that will cause it to fall or you didn't. Is it easy to repeat that shot or even find exactly where you need to be to hit the sweet spot? No, but there is zero luck involved in bowling. Luck is a human created concept. In reality, it is all comes down to how the ball hits the pins or doesn't hit them. It's not at all random as to when a certain pin falls over. If you really want to disprove this, get a 240fps camera, and set it up above the pin deck.

[Mike White]

You are just being pessimistic here. It is not luck whether a ten pin falls or not. You either made the good shot that will cause it to fall or you didn't. Is it easy to repeat that shot or even find exactly where you need to be to hit the sweet spot? No, but there is zero luck involved in bowling. Luck is a human created concept. In reality, it is all comes down to how the ball hits the pins or doesn't hit them. It's not at all random as to when a certain pin falls over. If you really want to disprove this, get a 240fps camera, and set it up above the pin deck.

Read a little on Chaos Theory, then re-read what you just typed.

Everything is changing from shot to shot.

Pins being off spot, even within tolerance, oil being moved or removed, are you off by 1/2 a revolution.

All kinds of things can change the results of a shot.

If the cause is not of your doing, and there wasn't a way for you to be aware of it before the shot, it's bad luck.

Ball manufacturers want you to get another ball to solve the problem.

Personally, I try to repeat the same shot if I leave a ringing 10 pin, and choose a wider path to the pocket on a flat 10.

For me, flat 10 pins usually mean I came in contact with too much oil on the way down the lane.

[Amyers]

Here we go again I knew this was coming as soon as I first seen this post. Here's the way I see it in a perfect world there is no tap in bowling if we had pinpoint accuracy and in finance knowledge of the balls path then we would never see a 10 pin leave. When you consider that your throwing a round object at rounded objects over a surface that is constantly changing luck does become involved.

When you leave a weak 10 odds are good that's it more than bad luck believe me I see this d*** pin enough. Ringing 10's luck is a little more of it. Now does this mean that it was a perfect shot and you just got screwed? No something happened that caused it most of the time if it's within our human error quotient is the question. The truth is most of us our doing good to have +- 1 board accuracy (probably giving most of us too much credit), .5 accuracy in ball speed, and I have no idea the typical variance on how many revs most of us have shot to shot but I can promise you it's less than exact.

We all need to explore our games by trying different balls, lines, and hand positions to maximize our potential. We should never accept that any leave that's happening repeatedly is just bad luck. We should also realize when we are performing to the best of our abilities take are 9/ and figure out a solution for the long term. This long term solution is what I'm in search of now. Believing that it's just bad luck if it's happening repeatedly will be detrimental to your game.

[Mike White]

You are just being pessimistic here. It is not luck whether a ten pin falls or not. You either made the good shot that will cause it to fall or you didn't. Is it easy to repeat that shot or even find exactly where you need to be to hit the sweet spot? No, but there is zero luck involved in bowling. Luck is a human created concept. In reality, it is all comes down to how the ball hits the pins or doesn't hit them. It's not at all random as to when a certain pin falls over. If you really want to disprove this, get a 240fps camera, and set it up above the pin deck.

As for the camera, measure how accurate a person is at 15 feet, and on those same shots, how accurate they are at 55 feet.

On a THS, you'll find they are more accurate at 55 feet.

It's that wall of oil guiding the ball that increases the accuracy.

[Amyers]

Here we go again I knew this was coming as soon as I first seen this post. Here's the way I see it in a perfect world there is no tap in bowling if we had pinpoint accuracy and in finance knowledge of the balls path then we would never see a 10 pin leave. When you consider that your throwing a round object at rounded objects over a surface that is constantly changing luck does become involved.

When you leave a weak 10 odds are good that's it more than bad luck believe me I see this d*** pin enough. Ringing 10's luck is a little more of it. Now does this mean that it was a perfect shot and you just got screwed? No something happened that caused it most of the time if it's within our human error quotient is the question. The truth is most of us our doing good to have +- 1 board accuracy (probably giving most of us too much credit), .5 accuracy in ball speed, and I have no idea the typical variance on how many revs most of us have shot to shot but I can promise you it's less than exact.

We all need to explore our games by trying different balls, lines, and hand positions to maximize our potential. We should never accept that any leave that's happening repeatedly is just bad luck. We should also realize when we are performing to the best of our abilities take are 9/ and figure out a solution for the long term. This long term solution is what I'm in search of now. Believing that it's just bad luck if it's happening repeatedly will be detrimental to your game.

[RobLV1]

If you are trying to help people, you might start by not being wrong so often.

The 10 pin not being bad luck fits your believe system, but your reasoning only works for a subset of reality.

How consistent is a human supposed to be at 60 feet? 1 inch? 2 inches?, inside of that range, even a good shot can leave a 10 pin.

That's just bad luck, because any type of adjustment and it's more likely to get worse than better.

I guess you just don't understand the game of bowling before the advent of wall bowling.


You know, Mike, I've really tried to be nice to you, but you just don't seem to get it. When I think you're wrong about something, I just keep my mouth shut and don't respond. Constantly coming after me and saying I'm wrong about most everything just makes you come across as an insecure jerk. I have written more full-length bowling instructional articles over the past eight years than any other human being on the planet. I am paid for what I have to say, and get positive responses from people all around the world on a monthly basis. Is this why it's so important for you to continue these personal attacks on me? If you look at something differently than I do, then good for you! The more viewpoints that are expressed on this forum, the more the people who come here benefit. It would be nice, however, if you would quit making it personal.

[Cdolcejr]

Bowling is essentially physics. There are many reasons a 10 pin could be left on a pocket hit. Pins could be offset and luck can become a factor, but most of the time it comes down to the quality of the shot that was made. Oil patterns break down over the course of a series- we know that. As this happens, the ball starts to hook sooner and sooner. When it is a matter of inches between a perfect shot and a ten pin leave, adjustments need to be made. I used to be in the "10 pins are bad luck" camp. I've had many nights where I shoot 250, 230, and 170-180. If you don't make the necessary adjustments to carry the 10 pin, you can be as locked in on the pocket as you want, but it won't make a difference. I've learned this over the last 6 months. From my experience, most bowlers below 210 don't know this. I've gone from sometimes leaving 16 ten pins a night to shooting almost 800 on several occasions. My problem was the ringing ten pin. If you watch a perfect shot that leaves a 10 in slow motion, you will see that the shot actually was not a perfect shot. The ball caught more of the head pin causing the 3 to hit the 6 in a way that the 6 is sent around 10 pin completely. The key is realizing that a change needs to be made instead of just attributing it to bad luck. It's not bad luck (all the time). It's science. This is basically what Rob said in a nutshell, so I have to agree.

This video is EXACTLY what I am talking about.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tylKw_CIR-o

[John Anderson]

Read a little on Chaos Theory, then re-read what you just typed.
If the cause is not of your doing, and there wasn't a way for you to be aware of it before the shot, it's bad luck.


Luck is just a human concept though. Whether you were aware of something or not doesn't matter. What you know or don't know doesn't affect the ball moving. It only determines how you think you want to throw the ball.

[Amyers]

Luck is just a human concept though. Whether you were aware of something or not doesn't matter. What you know or don't know doesn't affect the ball moving. It only determines how you think you want to throw the ball.

If a ball hits the pins and no one is there does it make a sound?

[John Anderson]

If a ball hits the pins and no one is there does it make a sound?

That's a whole different debate... lol.

[Mike White]

Bowling is essentially physics. There are many reasons a 10 pin could be left on a pocket hit. Pins could be offset and luck can become a factor, but most of the time it comes down to the quality of the shot that was made. Oil patterns break down over the course of a series- we know that. As this happens, the ball starts to hook sooner and sooner. When it is a matter of inches between a perfect shot and a ten pin leave, adjustments need to be made. I used to be in the "10 pins are bad luck" camp. I've had many nights where I shoot 250, 230, and 170-180. If you don't make the necessary adjustments to carry the 10 pin, you can be as locked in on the pocket as you want, but it won't make a difference. I've learned this over the last 6 months. From my experience, most bowlers below 210 don't know this. I've gone from sometimes leaving 16 ten pins a night to shooting almost 800 on several occasions. My problem was the ringing ten pin. If you watch a perfect shot that leaves a 10 in slow motion, you will see that the shot actually was not a perfect shot. The ball caught more of the head pin causing the 3 to hit the 6 in a way that the 6 is sent around 10 pin completely. The key is realizing that a change needs to be made instead of just attributing it to bad luck. It's not bad luck (all the time). It's science. This is basically what Rob said in a nutshell, so I have to agree.

This video is EXACTLY what I am talking about.




One piece of evidence is insufficient to prove the case.

Rob said "Leaving the ten pin standing is never bad luck"

The key word here is never.

Showing examples of when it's not bad luck doesn't make the statement true.

When we were in Vegas, we were bowling scotch doubles.

I threw a first ball, and Aslan had to pick up the spare, which if you asked him, was a 10 pin.

That one shot is proof of bad luck.

I threw the ball dead flush in the pocket.

I drove the 3 pin into the 6 pin, which went into the 10 pin.

The problem was, the 3 pin didn't fall, it just stopped sliding in the 10 pin spot.

I thought it was on video, but I guess it ended up on the cutting room floor.

Here is an example.... I'm not saying this was a perfect shot, just that sometimes bad luck happens.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIsTCUHBRDI

[Cdolcejr]

One piece of evidence is insufficient to prove the case.

Rob said "Leaving the ten pin standing is never bad luck"

The key word here is never.

Showing examples of when it's not bad luck doesn't make the statement true.

When we were in Vegas, we were bowling scotch doubles.

I threw a first ball, and Aslan had to pick up the spare, which if you asked him, was a 10 pin.

That one shot is proof of bad luck.

I threw the ball dead flush in the pocket.

I drove the 3 pin into the 6 pin, which went into the 10 pin.

The problem was, the 3 pin didn't fall, it just stopped sliding in the 10 pin spot.

I thought it was on video, but I guess it ended up on the cutting room floor.

Here is an example.... I'm not saying this was a perfect shot, just that sometimes bad luck happens.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIsTCUHBRDI

I agree, luck is definitely a factor- all kinds of things can happen when you throw a ball at a set of pins tens of thousands of times. I just find that if I start leaving 10 pins, its not luck its usually just me failing to adjust. I was originally agreeing with what Rob said regarding the causes of the ten pin:

"It's a matter of entry angle and energy. If the angle is not correct, the result is a ringing ten. If the ball is not at it's peak in terms of energy when it enters the pocket, it's a weak ten. Ringing tens mean you are really close. Weak tens mean that you either need to move, or that you have the wrong ball in your hand"

[Mike White]

Luck is just a human concept though. Whether you were aware of something or not doesn't matter. What you know or don't know doesn't affect the ball moving. It only determines how you think you want to throw the ball.

You're rambling.

Based on that, everyone should bowl the same, because knowledge doesn't matter.

[Mike White]

I agree, luck is definitely a factor- all kinds of things can happen when you throw a ball at a set of pins tens of thousands of times. I just find that if I start leaving 10 pins, its not luck its usually just me failing to adjust. I was originally agreeing with what Rob said regarding the causes of the ten pin:

"It's a matter of entry angle and energy. If the angle is not correct, the result is a ringing ten. If the ball is not at it's peak in terms of energy when it enters the pocket, it's a weak ten. Ringing tens mean you are really close. Weak tens mean that you either need to move, or that you have the wrong ball in your hand"

More so than entry angle, and energy, it's about location.

Since I bowl frequently with seniors, I see balls thrown which do all of it's hooking before 30 feet, and have relatively low momentum as it strikes the pins.

If the ball hits the pocket correctly they can put 10 in the pit as well as anyone.

That rule out requiring the ball be at it's peak of energy to keep from leaving a weak 10.

The angle from 30 feet is 2.6 degrees at best, so angle isn't a major factor.

The rules of physics apply to everyone.

[John Anderson]

You're rambling.

Based on that, everyone should bowl the same, because knowledge doesn't matter.

You are just refusing to acknowledge because you disagree. "It (Knowledge) only determines how you think you want to throw the ball." That doesn't make you a good bowler even if you know how to throw a perfect shot unless you can physically perform the shot as well.

[Mike White]

If a ball hits the pins and no one is there does it make a sound?

If no one is there, what made the ball hit the pins?

[Mike White]

You are just refusing to acknowledge because you disagree. "It (Knowledge) only determines how you think you want to throw the ball." That doesn't make you a good bowler even if you know how to throw a perfect shot unless you can physically perform the shot as well.

Knowledge also includes knowing what you can and can not perform.

I don't leave enough ringing 10 pins to catch one on video, but they look significantly better than the KK video.

I'm more likely to leave a 9 pin, than a ringing 10 pin.

[bobforsaken]

Its simple.. when I leave 10 pins its bad luck. When other bowlers leave 10 pins, its their failure to adjust.

[mc_runner]

Bob, you got me thinking that it's kind of strange. As I've gotten better, I've left more tens, but as I've learned to adjust I've spread out singles more in the back row (leading to less 10s overall now).

[Amyers]

Its simple.. when I leave 10 pins its bad luck. When other bowlers leave 10 pins, its their failure to adjust.

LOL I'll have to use that some time. Would make a good tshirt