Is there luck in bowling?

[J Anderson]

This thread is inspired by the current "discussion" between Rob and Mike in the '10 Pin Leaves' thread.

Rob replied to the original poster, "Leaving the ten pin standing is never bad luck." He went on to explain, "It's a matter of entry angle and energy. If the angle is not correct, the result is a ringing ten. If the ball is not at it's peak in terms of energy when it enters the pocket, it's a weak ten." In other posts he has made a similar case to say the same thing about the rest of the pins in the back row. In other words, any time a bowler doesn't shoot 300, it's because he or she made a mistake in at least one frame.

Mike has rebutted this several times with this serving as a fair summary of his position:"Everything is changing from shot to shot.
Pins being off spot, even within tolerance, oil being moved or removed, are you off by 1/2 a revolution.
All kinds of things can change the results of a shot.
If the cause is not of your doing, and there wasn't a way for you to be aware of it before the shot, it's bad luck."

So is there luck in bowling?
If there isn't, does that mean those Brooklyn strikes I got Tuesday night were all skill even though I yanked the ball?

[dougb]

So is there luck in bowling?
If there isn't, does that mean those Brooklyn strikes I got Tuesday night were all skill even though I yanked the ball?

'Nuf said IMO.

[Mgower]

I think if you define luck as random chance, then bowling is filled with luck. Whether it be a pin that is slightly mis-spotted or a pin bouncing wildly off the wall on a missed shot that takes out that standing ten pin, bowling is filled with luck. But I think skill in throwing the ball lessens random chance substantially.

But hey, I'll take a Brooklyn strike every chance I get. :)

[got_a_300]

As the old saying goes " I'd rather be lucky than good anyday" because
a lucky bowler is harder to beat than a good bowler is.

[vdubtx]

" I'd rather be lucky than good anyday"

Absolutely.

[jab5325]

Good question/debate.

I think there's absolutely luck in bowling.

Rob talks about understanding the modern game, and I think he's correct and is a great teacher. I've never worked with him in a lesson before, but I understand his writings and what he's getting at.

Mike's points about a huge number of variables, etc also have merit, IMO. It takes skill to average 200+ (albeit less today), but it also takes a certain amount of luck to have the conditions be correct, to have the wisdom to make the correct adjustments, to have the ability to throw the exact same speed, etc.

So many times in league, I'll get a 7pin, 8pin, or some other single-pin leave and someone will say "that was a great shot, you got screwed." Well, 8 times out of 10, they're wrong--I see it hitting light, heavy, etc--there are very few "pocket shots" I make where I don't know what's wrong.

Truthfully, and I don't mean to sound cheesy here.....but I feel very lucky to have found this forum. People like Rob and Mike, with different opinions, cause one to think about the game. I've never taken a mental approach to the sport before; because of this board, I have and my average has increased significantly.

[Aslan]

'Nuf said IMO.

Agreed. There is obviously some luck...pulling shots and getting strikes...going through the head and getting a strike rather than a 7-10...

..last night I missed and the 4-5 were standing...but the 5 fell late and 'barely' bumped the 4 and knocked it over before the pin deck came down. That used up all my luck for July!

And then there's stone 8s and stone 9s...or 7-pins that you leave because 2 pins hit each other in mid air above the 7-pin.

But, as was mentioned and to Rob's credit....luck is very, very, very over-used by most bowlers. Very few bowlers watch where their ball exits the pin deck and have zero understanding of what it means when a ball exits closer to the 8-pin or 9-pin...and where the ball exits the pin deck....CRUCIALLY important in terms of WHY you left a certain pin(s).

[RobLV1]

The sad thing is that when a bowler crosses over to the Brooklyn side and doesn't strike, he often thinks it's bad luck. When he crosses over and does strike it never occurs to him that it's just good luck. LOL

[HowDoIHookAgain]

There is luck in every single sport. A home run shot that hooks foul at the last second in baseball. A golf ball that catches the wind and just so happens to land in the hole, to get a hole-in-one. A quarterback tripping in football to ruin the play for his team. A stubborn pin that doesn't decide to fall down in bowling. Luck is inevitable anywhere you go in every sport in the world. It's just a matter of what kind of luck, when/where it shows up, and how it affects your game.

[John Anderson]

So is there luck in bowling?
If there isn't, does that mean those Brooklyn strikes I got Tuesday night were all skill even though I yanked the ball?

No there is not. And no to the second question as well. You happened to throw the ball in such a way that resulted in a brooklyn strike. It wasn't luck. It was physics in action.

Can you call it getting lucky? Yes you definitely can. Luck is just a human concept to say something ended well or ended poorly.

[J Anderson]

The sad thing is that when a bowler crosses over to the Brooklyn side and doesn't strike, he often thinks it's bad luck. When he crosses over and does strike it never occurs to him that it's just good luck. LOL

Doesn't the existence of good luck imply that at least sometimes there's such a thing as bad luck?

[Cdolcejr]

So what about when you leave that 10 pin and the messenger slowly rolls over and takes it out at the last second? How is that not luck?

[J Anderson]

So what about when you leave that 10 pin and the messenger slowly rolls over and takes it out at the last second? How is that not luck?

On those rare shots when I get a messenger that's moving with enough momentum to knock anything down it usually goes to the wrong address

[rv driver]

You've got 10 pins over ten frames with a possibility of two shots to knock all of them over (with the exception of the 10th). You've probably got at least two balls, each of which may differ in weight, characteristic and drilling slightly or radically. You've got 4 or 5 steps on approach, each one of which could be off. You've got an arm swing, involving shoulder, elbow, wrist, fingers, back, legs, hips, neck, any of which could be slightly (or more) off on each of a possible 21 swings. You've got shoes that could grip/slide differently a possibility of 21 times. You've got a release that involves arm, shoulder, neck, wrist, fingers, feet, etc. that could be off a possible 21 times. You've got lane degradation and oil carry-down. So many variables. No one -- I don't care if you're Earl Anthony, Chris Barnes, Belmo, or WRW -- can control all those variables every time. If that were possible, EVERYBODY would be throwing consistent 300s. I've seen the pros get strikes off of bounced and flying pins many times. I've seen people hit the pocket consistently and miss a perfect game with one stubborn pin.

Yeah, I'd say that constitutes "luck involved."