Relationship between bowling center and pro shop?

[NewToBowling]

Most if not all bowling centers lease out their space to pro shops. So they are two separate businesses. Just wondering how cohesive they work together?

I get free game vouchers when I get a ball drilled. Does the PSO pay back the bowling alley or is it just good business for all.

Some places the bowling center has a vending machine that sells tape, socks, etc that the PSO would presumably sell as well. Conflict of interest?

[vdubtx]

Usually they have a good business relationship.

I am sure Mike White has some first hand info on this as he works in a pro-shop.

The vending machines for bowling items are stocked by the PSO's from the centers that I frequent.

[MICHAEL]

ITs a symbiotic relationship, with give and take! I have a few buddies that run pro shops, and they repair bowling balls for the house, at no charge, but get a special deal on rent ect. Yes many do have the automatic ball polish machines, and vending machines,,, they can be handy when the pro shop is not open!

Many times the Pro Shops are very limited hours around here. The pro shop will many times have a much better selection of goodies... hope this helps... ICE

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KIo9fBNNJVmkQAuuT7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTEwZn Y3Z3VsBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDQjA1MDMEZ3BvcwM2 ?p=Picture+of+Two+People+Scratching+Each+Others+Ba ck&vid=8999d6e98a7ef40a512405b1400b346b&turl=http%3A%2F%2Ftse4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DWN. Qjq8uXRnl8t5gERRhzVdKA%26pid%3D15.1%26h%3D225%26w% 3D300%26c%3D7%26rs%3D1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dl 89hCYnDgKc&tit=Sesame+Street+-+Gorilla+Scratch&c=5&h=225&w=300&l=31&sigr=11brs1jt1&sigt=10vqrikfk&sigi=12l5jrp1c&age=1174770292&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av&fr=ymyy-t-500&tt=b

this short video helps explain the way it works...

Me personally I would not use the ball polish machines, at least the older ones! I would only consider using it on a plastic ball. A Pro Shop can do a very customized finish that suits your style of bowling, and ball!

Not all pro shops are equal, as I have found out dealing with a half dozen around here. Find a good one, and tap his knowledge, and help!

[Mike White]

Usually they have a good business relationship.

I am sure Mike White has some first hand info on this as he works in a pro-shop.

The vending machines for bowling items are stocked by the PSO's from the centers that I frequent.

Where I was at, the owner wasn't real keen on having a pro shop.

Before I arrived there, the shop had been dislocated from a nice area, (glass front, and locking doors), into what used to be an area that held the lockers.

When closed, it looked like it could have been a prison cell.

The agreement had me pay a small monthly rental fee, which covered electricity.

I had a vending machine outside of the shop, and the only restriction was I couldn't sell socks there.

I guess because they also sold socks at the front desk.

P.S. work(ed) in a pro shop. I got out.

[John Anderson]

If I owned a bowling alley, I'd definitely want a good pro shop there. There is only one real pro shop that is close to me, and the owner of the shop has good relations with the owner/management of the center. I'd imagine that rent is pretty low if much more than merely covering the costs of having the shop there. It's a major benefit to the center to have a pro shop because it draws in a lot of league bowlers.

[Mike White]

If I owned a bowling alley, I'd definitely want a good pro shop there. There is only one real pro shop that is close to me, and the owner of the shop has good relations with the owner/management of the center. I'd imagine that rent is pretty low if much more than merely covering the costs of having the shop there. It's a major benefit to the center to have a pro shop because it draws in a lot of league bowlers.

The realities of the bowling business are, you make more money from the food department, and alcohol department than from the bowling department.

The more serious the bowler, the less food/alcohol they tend to purchase.

On the Friday night leagues, they have 40 lanes full of 4 people per team.

Lineage is 9.50 per person, so the center has $1520 income per week from that night's league bowling.

Right after the league is done, they have cosmic bowling. $14 per person.

As long as they have 109+ people, they are making more from cosmic than from league.

On most Fridays they average close to 200 cosmic bowlers.

[MICHAEL]

The realities of the bowling business are, you make more money from the food department, and alcohol department than from the bowling department.

The more serious the bowler, the less food/alcohol they tend to purchase.

On the Friday night leagues, they have 40 lanes full of 4 people per team.

Lineage is 9.50 per person, so the center has $1520 income per week from that night's league bowling.

Right after the league is done, they have cosmic bowling. $14 per person.

As long as they have 109+ people, they are making more from cosmic than from league.

On most Fridays they average close to 200 cosmic bowlers.

The lineage around here is 2.00 to 4.50. Most place charge only 2 bucks if your on a league at their house.
The Fact that most pro shops save the alley money in regards to ball repairs makes a pro shop beneficial vs sending it out of house to another pro shop for repair.

With all the older equipment out there at most of the lanes I bowl, its a substantial savings working out a deal, vs sending out dozens and dozens of ball to be repaired at the going rate.

Food and drinks are for sure the money maker, for most establishments,,, you should check out the Food, and Drinks at some of the Bowlmore lanes on the East Coast! Big Bucks!!! The lanes where the rich elite stockbrokers, bankers, and government fat cats bowl.
Did I say bowl,,, maybe a better word would be hang out, drinking sham- pane, and eating caviar They look like high dollar casino's!!!

check it out!!
http://www.bowlmor.com/Times-Square/

[John Anderson]

The lineage around here is 2.00 to 4.50. Most place charge only 2 bucks if your on a league at their house.
The Fact that most pro shops save the alley money in regards to ball repairs makes a pro shop beneficial vs sending it out of house to another pro shop for repair.

With all the older equipment out there at most of the lanes I bowl, its a substantial savings working out a deal, vs sending out dozens and dozens of ball to be repaired at the going rate.

Food and drinks are for sure the money maker, for most establishments,,, you should check out the Food, and Drinks at some of the Bowlmore lanes on the East Coast! Big Bucks!!! The lanes where the rich elite stockbrokers, bankers, and government fat cats bowl.
Did I say bowl,,, maybe a better word would be hang out, drinking sham- pane, and eating caviar They look like high dollar casino's!!!

check it out!!
http://www.bowlmor.com/Times-Square/

Dang! $6.09 games is a promotion? That's nuts but it is NY after all. Nothing comes cheap around NYC.

[Mike White]

The lineage around here is 2.00 to 4.50. Most place charge only 2 bucks if your on a league at their house.


You're comparing apples to oranges.

9.50 is for 3 games of league bowling.

I think it's only 6.00 for 3 league games in the afternoon leagues.

[taxexpert2]

Personally, I have had a much better experience with pro shops that are NOT in a bowling alley. The relationship is strange for those in house shops and many of them do not provide the best service to the bowler. I am certain there are some that do, but I have found more that do not.

[John Anderson]

Personally, I have had a much better experience with pro shops that are NOT in a bowling alley. The relationship is strange for those in house shops and many of them do not provide the best service to the bowler. I am certain there are some that do, but I have found more that do not.

What shops do you know of that aren't in bowling alleys near you? I'm pretty close to you location wise.

[Aslan]

The realities of the bowling business are, you make more money from the food department, and alcohol department than from the bowling department.

The more serious the bowler, the less food/alcohol they tend to purchase.

On the Friday night leagues, they have 40 lanes full of 4 people per team.

Lineage is 9.50 per person, so the center has $1520 income per week from that night's league bowling.

Right after the league is done, they have cosmic bowling. $14 per person.

As long as they have 109+ people, they are making more from cosmic than from league.

On most Fridays they average close to 200 cosmic bowlers.

The problem is...those numbers are short-sighted. They look at a certain time and say;

"Hey...I can make more on cosmic bowling!! Screw leagues! They're a hastle anyways!"

But here's the RUB...those leagues...on some nights...Mon-Wed for example...will bring in more income than open/cosmic bowling will. On Thursdays...could go either way. Friday night?? Depends on whether it's summer or winter (kids in or out of school).

So what a lot of bowling alleys did (thanks in part to Bowlmor's claims that the future of bowling is the gourmet food/bar oriented entertainment venue)...was stop promoting league play. And a LOT of those bowling alleys completely went under after 1-3 years. Even Bowlmor's fancy Manhattan bowling center closed. Why? Because those numbers are short-sighted. They assume that if the lanes are available...you can draw 100-110 bowlers a night. And near a college campus...maybe you can. On the weekends, sure, most bowling alleys do well on the weekends. But what about Mon-Fri? What about when summer ends and the kids are back in school and involved in after school activities and the parents aren't looking for something to get them off the couch??

League bowling may be less profitable...but it's a CONSISTENT form of income. SO consistent, that (at least in the past) bowling alleys could get loans using league lineage as a form of collateral...because it's a consistent revenue stream. Once those leagues go away...you have no consistent revenue stream and simply have to pin your hopes to people in the general area being bored on a Tuesday night or random birthday parties.

Bowlmor won't admit it...but their model is completely faulty. It works very well in niche markets...affluent markets...night club type of markets. Yet it has failed more times than it's worked. Case in point...the AMF house near where I work...no longer there. Bowlmor bought it, reduce the hours to the point that all their day leagues and senior leagues moved to a nearby private center, put a ton of money into the place to upgrade the scoring system to touch screens and update all the " ambiance", and the center was completely closed and demolished in less than 1 year. Bowlmor tends to 'forget' about those kinds of stories when they are taunting how great their business model is for bowling centers.

And to relate this to the topic at hand...another death blow to a center...before they ever get rid of leagues...is not having a pro shop onsite. League bowlers, if they have a choice, will bowl at a place with a pro shop before bowling in a center that doesn't have one. And during league play, the pro shops I've seen (Mike's included) are almost standing room only. Packed with people wanting new balls, new shoes, accessories, powder, and lots of "adjustments". What do you do if your thumb is sticking in the ball and you need to get the thumbhole widened just a bit during league play? Do you just go home and wait till the weekend to bring your ball to a nearby pro shop?? That's completely absurd.

If bowling centers want a good deal of income...on a consistent basis...to maintain a successful business...they should have at least 1/2 their centers filled with leagues every weeknight and during the morning on the weekend. Very few that abandon that model are able to stay profitable for long. They may do well in the summer or around the holidays...but that's about it.

We see the same thing with movies. What movies make the most money? Cartoons. Because parents love anything that will keep their kids quiet for 2 hours at a time...even if they have to pay through the nose. Does that mean we should just make all kids movies and get rid of adult oriented movies?? Nope. That would be absurd. But using the same logic as bowling centers....it makes sense. Cartoons = $$$$....so lets get rid of the R-rated stuff and just do family movies and cartoons!! SHORT...SIGHTED.

[NewToBowling]

I have yet to see a dedicated bowling alley without a pro shop. The pro shop at the place I bowl at has terrible hours. They have banker hours. Open around noon to 4-5pm. Yeah lets close when league is going on. That's a money making proposition there. But it doesn't matter anyways as the people that work there are only employees, not the actual owner. They rotate 3 guys so you never know who will be there on any given day. And they aren't real interested in helping you out as they don't see any of the profit. Prefer to just sit back and wait for end of shift.

[Mike White]

I have yet to see a dedicated bowling alley without a pro shop. The pro shop at the place I bowl at has terrible hours. They have banker hours. Open around noon to 4-5pm. Yeah lets close when league is going on. That's a money making proposition there. But it doesn't matter anyways as the people that work there are only employees, not the actual owner. They rotate 3 guys so you never know who will be there on any given day. And they aren't real interested in helping you out as they don't see any of the profit. Prefer to just sit back and wait for end of shift.

Sounds like the owner isn't seeing much profit either.

When I owned the shop, my hours were noon to 8 pm weekdays, and 5 until 8 on Sundays.

Only exceptions were if I was bowling.

Where I was at, there wasn't enough business to even consider hiring an employee.

The guy who is there now does it more as a hobby.

He works 8am to 4pm at a county job, then 5pm to 8pm in the shop (when he is there).

[Mike White]

If bowling centers want a good deal of income...on a consistent basis...to maintain a successful business...they should have at least 1/2 their centers filled with leagues every weeknight and during the morning on the weekend.

You're ignoring the trends.

The # of games bowled, attributed to league bowling is on a decline, while open bowling (non league bowlers) is increasing.

[Tony]

According to a discussion I was party to a few months ago (the guys involved owned 8 bowling centers between them) agreed that the league bowler was still the main income producing source overall. The league bowlers often came in an practiced and bowled in the cosmic or other recreational bowling sessions, in addition to leagues. They also consumed beverages and food before, during and after play. The league I bowl in (handicap) has a fair number of pretty serious bowlers and the bar and kitchen can't keep up. While on the average the more serious the bowler is the less they consume , how many scratch leagues are there anymore ? Those are the really serious bowlers in my area and they don't have that many of those leagues anymore, but they have been adding beer and pizza league and women's wine leagues.
Granted this might not be reflective of the entire nation, this is just the opinion of a few guys in the Midwest, but they are bowling proprietors. I think the lineage in my league is 10.50 or 11.

Keep in mind another major factor, the cost to attract the recreational bowler, once a guy joins a league he is probably going to be showing up 30 plus times a year , how many advertising dollars does it take to entice the recreational bowler to return 30 plus time in the next year. Once you factor that single item in, you can easily see for the average bowling center in the midwest the league bowler is the one that drives the revenue.

[Mike White]

Keep in mind another major factor, the cost to attract the recreational bowler, once a guy joins a league he is probably going to be showing up 30 plus times a year , how many advertising dollars does it take to entice the recreational bowler to return 30 plus time in the next year. Once you factor that single item in, you can easily see for the average bowling center in the midwest the league bowler is the one that drives the revenue.

Lets examine the cost to attract bowlers.

Assuming you take 100 people at random.

Make them the offer, for $50, they can bowl 4 times during the year.

Then offer for $330 they can bowl in a league 30 times during the year.
(Note: they would have to pay the extra $$ into the prize fund each week)

Which do you think is the harder sale?

Even if you limited the 100 people to current league bowlers, the bang per advertising buck leans in favor of the non-league bowling.

[Tony]

Lets examine the cost to attract bowlers.

Assuming you take 100 people at random.

Make them the offer, for $50, they can bowl 4 times during the year.

Then offer for $330 they can bowl in a league 30 times during the year.
(Note: they would have to pay the extra $$ into the prize fund each week)

Which do you think is the harder sale?

Even if you limited the 100 people to current league bowlers, the bang per advertising buck leans in favor of the non-league bowling.

Sorry, I was relaying real information from guys that run bowling centers, not made up "100 people at random" scenarios that prove nothing.

You are welcome to believe what you choose, I choose to believe the guys I was listening to.

FYI one of the guys is in the USBC and BPAA hall of fame....I'm pretty sure he knows his business

[Tony]

Back on the original topic one of the smartest guys I know owned 2 centers and gave the pro-shops space for free and asked they be open as much as possible during league times, that's where they also made lots of sales and also did small adjustments for free.

[Mike White]

Sorry, I was relaying real information from guys that run bowling centers, not made up "100 people at random" scenarios that prove nothing.

You are welcome to believe what you choose, I choose to believe the guys I was listening to.

FYI one of the guys is in the USBC and BPAA hall of fame....I'm pretty sure he knows his business

"Keep in mind another major factor, the cost to attract the recreational bowler, once a guy joins a league he is probably going to be showing up 30 plus times a year , how many advertising dollars does it take to entice the recreational bowler to return 30 plus time in the next year. Once you factor that single item in, you can easily see for the average bowling center in the midwest the league bowler is the one that drives the revenue."

I suppose all of this part came from their conversation, and none of it was something you just made up.

As for someone being in the BPAA hall of fame... that's not a big compliment.

It's the BPAA who must take the largest share of blame for the sport losing credibility.

[Aslan]

You're ignoring the trends.

The # of games bowled, attributed to league bowling is on a decline, while open bowling (non league bowlers) is increasing.

Agreed Mr. White…but while you're focused on the trends…you're ignoring the fundamentals.

Is league bowling on the decline? Yes…and it has been for about 40 years. Absolutely. But while league bowling has been on decline…so has bowling center constriuction and ownership. There are many centers that CLAIM their model is working…when in FACT…the ONLY reason league bowlers and cosmic bowlers fill the place is because they have no other choices. When I was a kid…there was a bowling alley in every single town…from New Baltimore to Marysville and 2 in Port Huron. Thats about 7 towns all adjacent to each other in semi-rural Michigan. When we visited family up North, there were 3 bowling centers in their town.

Now…there 3-4 centers in those towns where I grew up total. So the number of centers dropped by at best 50%. And up north…they went from 3 centers to 1. And thats a college town.

My point is…to truly see how important leagues are…you have to repopulate the map with all those centers…like 20,000 that used to be there…look at what truly caused them to fail…and then honestly ask yourself it it was the league bowlers leaving or if it was that there was too much league bowling and not enough cosmic bowling. Because I've heard time after time of centers closing when league bowlers left…and I've never once in 40 years heard of a center that had a large league presence and it closed.

That being said…I just found out tonight that Tustin Bowl is closing. Just like Yorba Linda Bowl back in 2012…it was because the lease was up and the owner got a big offer for the land. I hadn't heard about it till tonight, figured I'd let ya know. Damn. That was one of my back-up centers to go to if things didn't work out at the center near me…because Tustin Bowl wasn't that far away…and very dry lanes which I usually did well on.

[Mike White]

Agreed Mr. White…but while you're focused on the trends…you're ignoring the fundamentals.

Is league bowling on the decline? Yes…and it has been for about 40 years. Absolutely. But while league bowling has been on decline…so has bowling center constriuction and ownership. There are many centers that CLAIM their model is working…when in FACT…the ONLY reason league bowlers and cosmic bowlers fill the place is because they have no other choices. When I was a kid…there was a bowling alley in every single town…from New Baltimore to Marysville and 2 in Port Huron. Thats about 7 towns all adjacent to each other in semi-rural Michigan. When we visited family up North, there were 3 bowling centers in their town.

Now…there 3-4 centers in those towns where I grew up total. So the number of centers dropped by at best 50%. And up north…they went from 3 centers to 1. And thats a college town.

My point is…to truly see how important leagues are…you have to repopulate the map with all those centers…like 20,000 that used to be there…look at what truly caused them to fail…and then honestly ask yourself it it was the league bowlers leaving or if it was that there was too much league bowling and not enough cosmic bowling. Because I've heard time after time of centers closing when league bowlers left…and I've never once in 40 years heard of a center that had a large league presence and it closed.

That being said…I just found out tonight that Tustin Bowl is closing. Just like Yorba Linda Bowl back in 2012…it was because the lease was up and the owner got a big offer for the land. I hadn't heard about it till tonight, figured I'd let ya know. Damn. That was one of my back-up centers to go to if things didn't work out at the center near me…because Tustin Bowl wasn't that far away…and very dry lanes which I usually did well on.

Back in the late 80's the BPAA forced the ABC (now USBC) to recognize honor scores, or effectively perish.
BPAA threatened to self sanction.

The idea was the BPAA wanted easier conditions to draw in more customers.

The problem with that idea is, easy conditions doesn't draw in new bowlers, it draws existing bowlers from one center to the other.

That means any center who tried to protect the credibility of the sport, lost customers because the other place was "better".

Lose enough customers, and the place closes.

Look at the house Iceman used to bowl at. According to him, it was doing fine with league bowlers, but Bowlmor decided to consolidate.

Less bowling centers means less employees, and the theory was displaced bowlers would migrate to the other centers that Bowlmor purchased.



Oddly enough Tustin Lanes, Temecula Lanes, and where I'm at Arlington Lanes were all owned by the same guy.

He sold Temecula less than a year ago, and now he's closing Tustin.

I wouldn't be surprised if Arlington is also on the chopping block. I'm under the impression he owns the land, and it's proximity to the airport probably makes it valuable for any form of light industry.

He did recently invest in some new carpeting, but the rest of the equipment is a mix-n-match collection of things he was able to pick up on E-Bay.

I think he picked up some equipment from Yorba Lanes.

[MICHAEL]

After all the lanes closed throughout the United States, one set of 6 will still stand tall, and be running and bowing leagues till the end time!

Plattsburg Missouri Farm Boy Wooden Lanes!

Its not a bad town with a golf course, Olympic size community pool with a fiberglass slide!

A town that both of you could call HOME,,,

We will be here after all the lanes close in CA!!!

Some lanes are just made to last, as are the people that have that rugged Midwest character, born to Bowl!

As more and more lanes close to you surfer guys in CA,,, and the air turns to a saucy thick gravy.... Just remember this:

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj9/evokemtwo/toxic_polution.png (http://media.photobucket.com/user/evokemtwo/media/toxic_polution.png.html)

WE WOOD Welcome you both to the very Heart of this country, Plattsburg Missouri, with open lanes!! Amen Iceman

ASLAN,,, my name is Mandy, and I would keep score for you,,,,, for FREE,,, We don't have those automatic score thingies .... Who knows,,, what else might come between us... We still use the over head projectors..... Just find a damn job, I am not taken in any more free-loaders!!

http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad34/smilesyd9/Photo22.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/smilesyd9/media/Photo22.jpg.html)

[Tony]

"Keep in mind another major factor, the cost to attract the recreational bowler, once a guy joins a league he is probably going to be showing up 30 plus times a year , how many advertising dollars does it take to entice the recreational bowler to return 30 plus time in the next year. Once you factor that single item in, you can easily see for the average bowling center in the midwest the league bowler is the one that drives the revenue."

I suppose all of this part came from their conversation, and none of it was something you just made up.

As for someone being in the BPAA hall of fame... that's not a big compliment.

It's the BPAA who must take the largest share of blame for the sport losing credibility.

Ok, fine whatever you say, apparently you know everything and anyone with a differing opinion is just wrong or making stuff up.
This from the guy who used the "100 people at random" advertising revenue example. That was powerful non made up evidence if I've ever seen it....

I haven't run a bowling center but I can hear and understand they guys that do and have been running them for years, oh but I forgot a guy in California is the all knowing expert on bowling in the Midwest, perhaps world-wide, I'm not sure.

I guess next time I see the guys, I'll let them know they should see you because you've got it all figured out and everyone else is just making **** up... SMH

[Mike White]

Ok, fine whatever you say, apparently you know everything and anyone with a differing opinion is just wrong or making stuff up.
This from the guy who used the "100 people at random" advertising revenue example. That was powerful non made up evidence if I've ever seen it....

I haven't run a bowling center but I can hear and understand they guys that do and have been running them for years, oh but I forgot a guy in California is the all knowing expert on bowling in the Midwest, perhaps world-wide, I'm not sure.

I guess next time I see the guys, I'll let them know they should see you because you've got it all figured out and everyone else is just making **** up... SMH

Hey, you are the one who brought up the idea of advertising costs.

The least expensive form of advertising is to send out your information to the general public..... Be that TV, Radio, or junk mail.

The issue is, you don't know anything about those people when you send the information, so they are "people at random"

Now you can narrow down that to people who are more likely to be interested in bowling, but gathering that information about your target audience has a higher cost.


The "100 people at random" is actually a scientific process, not some made up fiction.

Statistics 101.

If I were to tell you in advance exactly how those 100 people would answer, that would be made up ****. I didn't do that.

[jab5325]

The PSO at my center actually now runs the entire center.

The land/building is owned by an old guy who wanted to retire. He gave the PSO the chance to lease the business in addition to the shop.

I'll be interested to see what happens when the old guy dies. I'm not privy to lease details, but the place sits near an interchange along a major highway and near an industrial park. Some parcels have been developed, so I'd imagine the land is pretty desirable.

The operator has made improvements, but the center is very old and doesn't have a liquor license. It would need a lot of money to update the place to free it of "issues".....I'm not sure the money could ever be recouped on the backend.

[Amyers]

Bowling in the Midwest and California are different beasts. Property values, costs, and wages are far different. Advertising is a bad example for league bowling most league bowlers know the local centers and base their choices off of where their friends are, lane conditions that fit their games, and other reasons not who has a cool sounding advertisement. Open bowlers make their decisions based on the experience, price, and availability.

League bowling is shrinking their is no doubt about it but if managed properly can still be a major revenue source and much more dependable than cosmic bowling. Their is a reason most high level bowlers tend to spend less than your average cosmic bowler per visit. It is because the high level bowler makes many more visits than the cosmic bowler if you went with a monthly dollar spent metric looking at it my guess is the average high level bowler spends much more than the your average cosmic bowler.

Where change needs to be is the proprietors need to figure out a way to transform some of these cosmic bowlers into league bowlers. Maybe some changes need to be made to your leagues to be of more interest to that mentality to help create more league bowlers. Center count is going to shrink farther too many centers on valuable land and poorly located centers for modern times. The loss of the 9-5 factory and mid level office worker is killing the sport more than anything else and I don't know how you fix that but most of the proprietors need to up their game to bring people in too. At least from my local centers they have little to no understanding of the internet, social media, or how to connect with people in the modern world. If they don't change and learn how to do these things we are going to lose even more centers than we have too.

[Doghouse Reilly]

Ok, fine whatever you say, apparently you know everything and anyone with a differing opinion is just wrong or making stuff up.
This from the guy who used the "100 people at random" advertising revenue example. That was powerful non made up evidence if I've ever seen it....

I haven't run a bowling center but I can hear and understand they guys that do and have been running them for years, oh but I forgot a guy in California is the all knowing expert on bowling in the Midwest, perhaps world-wide, I'm not sure.

I guess next time I see the guys, I'll let them know they should see you because you've got it all figured out and everyone else is just making **** up... SMH

Okay TONY, You figured it out!!
He has a big disdain for everyone in bowling, coaches, people who have been in the industry for years, mfg's, BPAA, USBC, the pro's, other bowlers, PSO etc.

They all don't know what they are talking about, they base everything on faulty science, outdated information, draw the wrong conclusions, teach the wrong methods etc. etc.

Which I believe all came about back in the 80's (Back when he was the only bowler in the country putting 5-6-7-800 rpm's on plastic balls), he had a problem and went to 2-3 coaches and they couldn't help or made it worse. So he figured out himself, which proved he knew more than everyone else.

Then he had to drop out for 20 years, came back found thingds changed, they were using things like PAP locatiions, Dual angle layouts, all of which didn't make sense, so they were all wrong or stupid. Resin balls (which he can't use because they are tooo powerful for him , so he sticks to urethane and plastic balls).

Don't believe it, go back through the old posts.

Of course Tony you know he's going to follow you around now and dump on every post you make. Just ask that guy Rob.


http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/55818367.jpg

[bubba809]

Okay TONY, You figured it out!!
He has a big disdain for everyone in bowling, coaches, people who have been in the industry for years, mfg's, BPAA, USBC, the pro's, other bowlers, PSO etc.

They all don't know what they are talking about, they base everything on faulty science, outdated information, draw the wrong conclusions, teach the wrong methods etc. etc.

Which I believe all came about back in the 80's (Back when he was the only bowler in the country putting 5-6-7-800 rpm's on plastic balls), he had a problem and went to 2-3 coaches and they couldn't help or made it worse. So he figured out himself, which proved he knew more than everyone else.

Then he had to drop out for 20 years, came back found thingds changed, they were using things like PAP locatiions, Dual angle layouts, all of which didn't make sense, so they were all wrong or stupid. Resin balls (which he can't use because they are tooo powerful for him , so he sticks to urethane and plastic balls).

Don't believe it, go back through the old posts.

Of course Tony you know he's going to follow you around now and dump on every post you make. Just ask that guy Rob.


http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/55818367.jpg



LOL....POTY!

I often wonder why the mods don't view it as "trolling" when he follows EVERY ONE of poor Rob's posts who is just trying to help people improve. Things that make you go Hmmmmmmm........

[Amyers]

LOL....POTY!

I often wonder why the mods don't view it as "trolling" when he follows EVERY ONE of poor Rob's posts who is just trying to help people improve. Things that make you go Hmmmmmmm........

Can't believe that I'm defending Mike but while I don't agree with his following specific posters around and bashing everything they say sometimes he has a point and adds to the conversation. Mike has a better understanding of the physics of ball motion than most bowlers and even a lot of PSO's. I've seen some of his comments on other sites that are informative and well though out an honestly over top of the heads (including mine sometimes) of a lot of the followers of this site (not trying to pigeon hole but this site does tend to attract more newish bowlers). I do wish he would limit his disagreements to actual reasons and not get into the blind bashing that it devolves into at times but sometimes you have to take the good with the bad when your dealing with people.

[GeoLes]

If a bowling center has a large competitive bowling population, there is a huge incentive for a pro shop to be be available whenever the bowling center is open. This is not always the norm. . At my local center, the sign says they are available 3 days a week during specific hours which overlap with league hours, but they are often not open as posted. Early in league season they are open regularly, but as time goes on and the need for equipment and adjustments become less immediate, they often will open later, and later, or not at all. They are NOT open on the weekends at all.

This means the pro shop does not think it profitable to open all the time. You see this diminishing need with popular weekend kiddie parties, and the like on the rise as well. As we move from bowling centers to entertainment centers (with some bowling), look for even less pro shop representation. One lane near me has shut down at the beginning of the summer to totally rennovate as a "Dave & Busters" type of place with games, sports bar and bowling. They will NOT have any type of pro shop at all.

[Tony]

Hey, you are the one who brought up the idea of advertising costs.

The least expensive form of advertising is to send out your information to the general public..... Be that TV, Radio, or junk mail.

The issue is, you don't know anything about those people when you send the information, so they are "people at random"

Now you can narrow down that to people who are more likely to be interested in bowling, but gathering that information about your target audience has a higher cost.


The "100 people at random" is actually a scientific process, not some made up fiction.

Statistics 101.

If I were to tell you in advance exactly how those 100 people would answer, that would be made up ****. I didn't do that.


You drew a conclusion, that was not arrived at using random variables, or possible outcomes. IE Made up answer

"Even if you limited the 100 people to current league bowlers, the bang per advertising buck leans in favor of the non-league bowling."

I think we can agree that we don't agree on this point and that's not going to change.

I would assume based on your other comments that you consider the guys talking were all full of crap and know little to nothing about bowling despite the fact that one of the guys was Co-founder of the Ladies Pro bowlers Tour and one of the most instrumental figures in bowling over the past 40 years.

[bowl1820]

LOL....POTY!

I often wonder why the mods don't view it as "trolling" when he follows EVERY ONE of poor Rob's posts who is just trying to help people improve. Things that make you go Hmmmmmmm........

Well being a know it all tool isn't quite a troll and this board turned into the wildwest awhile back. So we kind of got some slide.

[Amyers]

Well being a know it all tool isn't quite a troll and this board turned into the wildwest awhile back. So we kind of got some slide.

Haha that's classic

[Tony]

Well being a know it all tool isn't quite a troll and this board turned into the wildwest awhile back. So we kind of got some slide.


All in all it doesn't bother me a bit, Mike reminds me a little of a guy I know who would argue any subject with anyone, he was a Harvard Medical Grad and would make sure you knew that in the first 2 minutes you spoke with him. I can't count the times he has disagreed with and argued the point to death on subject not within his field. I witnessed several times he would argue points of law with a buddy of mine that is a Judge and others where he would argue with engineers, IT experts, PGA touring pro's, or anyone....always concerning something in their field of expertise, according to him he was always right.....
He played in a few Pro-am's and was barred from any future play because he was giving the Pro's unsolicited advice on their game.
Then he harassed them from the gallery and was barred from the grounds during the events.

[bubba809]

All in all it doesn't bother me a bit, Mike reminds me a little of a guy I know who would argue any subject with anyone, he was a Harvard Medical Grad and would make sure you knew that in the first 2 minutes you spoke with him. I can't count the times he has disagreed with and argued the point to death on subject not within his field. I witnessed several times he would argue points of law with a buddy of mine that is a Judge and others where he would argue with engineers, IT experts, PGA touring pro's, or anyone....always concerning something in their field of expertise, according to him he was always right.....
He played in a few Pro-am's and was barred from any future play because he was giving the Pro's unsolicited advice on their game.
Then he harassed them from the gallery and was barred from the grounds during the events.

Doesn't bother me either. I am actually quite entertained by Mike's defensive responses. He does have a reasonable amount of bowling knowledge up there, it's just comes across as being such a d*uche. That's what people have the problem with. Nobody said he doesn't have the ability to spew out statistics and specs. It's the "people skills" that are lacking. I've seen quite a few of his videos and I do have a pretty good assessment of his personality "type". Can you say "little man syndrome"? Just a thought/observation. Aslan can say more has he has spent some quality time with Mike. Maybe it's all just a big internet tough guy scheme. I think he's just compensating for something.........

[NewToBowling]

Doesn't bother me either. I am actually quite entertained by Mike's defensive responses. He does have a reasonable amount of bowling knowledge up there, it's just comes across as being such a d*uche. That's what people have the problem with. Nobody said he doesn't have the ability to spew out statistics and specs. It's the "people skills" that are lacking. I've seen quite a few of his videos and I do have a pretty good assessment of his personality "type". Can you say "little man syndrome"? Just a thought/observation. Aslan can say more has he has spent some quality time with Mike. Maybe it's all just a big internet tough guy scheme. I think he's just compensating for something.........

That's uncalled for and now your'e the one trolling

[Aslan]

Bowling in the Midwest and California are different beasts. Property values, costs, and wages are far different.
Totally agree Amyers. In the Midwest, there are fewer centers, especially in the rural areas. I looked at an area of Michigan last week and between the Keewenaw peninsula and Munising (approximately 2.5 hours of driving distance...like 150 miles) there were 4 bowling centers. And only one of them looked like a place that even remotely caters to league bowlers. Meanwhile...as much as I gripe about places closing down...I live within a 20 minute drive of at LEAST 12 centers...probably more like 14 when you add in the gourmet places like Pinz. The downside to California is the property value and taxes are so outrageously high...that anyone that leases land...when the lease is up, the land owner generally can get millions by selling the land to a developer. Yorba Linda Bowl was a beloved facility...great for family bowling as well as leagues...very popular...great owners...yet their lease was up and the owner wanted to build a Whole Foods grocery store there. Tustin Lanes, same thing. The lease was up and the owner of the land I heard got in the 3-8 million dollar range for that property...so Tustin Lanes will be closing in October. And the problem is...nobody is building more bowling alleys. It's not like 2-3 close down and another one gets built. [/QUOTE]


I often wonder why the mods don't view it as "trolling" when he follows EVERY ONE of poor Rob's posts who is just trying to help people improve. Things that make you go Hmmmmmmm........
As someone who has been labeled as a troll on more than one website...I can attest that the term "troll" is often mis-used. A "troll" is a person that offers little value but is constantly going from thread to thread starting trouble. A troll is NOT....a person that is controversial or has strong opinions or is "irritating".

Take it from one of only two guys that actually almost got voted off this site...too many people go on the internet and think that if they come across a person they don't like...that said person should be removed. That's not how society works (outside of North Korea) and it certainly isn't how the internet works.

Some members tried to start their own bowling site...that would be "better" in part because people like me and Iceman and Mike wouldn't be welcome there. And that site lasted about a year and got very little traffic. They had good content (I snuck in occasionally...shhh, don't tell...I was incognito...) and the site functioned well...but it wasn't entertaining. And as soon as someone started to disagree....said person was ganged up on and they never returned.

My advice to people...whether they hate me or love me...or hate/love anyone else is...there's LOTS of threads...you don't HAVE TO read all of them. If there are people you don't like....or they rub you the wrong way...you can very easily click on a box (Bowl1820 can give a tutorial) where you don't see anything they post. I know of at LEAST 2-3 users that have me blocked (and can't see this). But if you're (not you...in general) a person that has a thin skin....the internet is just not a great place for you. Because the WORST I've seen (in terms of behavior) on this site...would be exponentially better than I've seen on other sites. This is an older, more mature (except for Iceman) crowd...that shares a love for bowling...and the vast, vast majority of the time things are completely civil.


Mike has a better understanding of the physics of ball motion than most bowlers and even a lot of PSO's. I've seen some of his comments on other sites that are informative and well though out an honestly over top of the heads (including mine sometimes)...you have to take the good with the bad when your dealing with people.
Again, I agree with Amyers wholeheartedly. Some people have "big personalities". I do. Iceman does. That both draws people in and entertains them...and it also at times pushes people away. You take the good with the bad. You want Iceman gone? He left...and mostly everyone wanted him to come back.

As I've said in multiple posts...what people don't see when they read what Mike or Rob or Iceman or myself...is what was on display during the Aslan vs. Iceman Challenge in Las Vegas. If you were there...you'd probably have been shocked at how well all these characters behaved. There was some gentle ribbing (not to be confused with gentle rubbing)...but all in all everyone got along great, we laughed, we celebrated Iceman's birthday, we bowled, and most of us even had dinner together that night. My point is, if you met any of us in PERSON...you'd probably be surprised how 'normal' we actually are. And that's a downside to the internet...you read into things when sometimes that's not what people mean. I admit that I struggle with this concerning DHoff...my most outspoken critic on this site. Whenever I read his posts...I almost immediately take it personally because as I'm reading it...I'm imaging a certain "tone"...and that tone is negative. But, in fairness, maybe sometimes he's just trying to be jovial or funny. Maybe he's just trying to get along...and I'm reading too much into it.

As I've said before...what you guys see between me and Ice or Mike and Rob may seem like people that can't stand each other and are constantly bickering...but the underlying cause of that...as a person who has met all 3 of those gentlemen and considers them ALL friends...Iceman and I bicker because we're very similar. Mike and Rob bicker because they are very similar. None of will openly admit to that...I guess I sorta just did though...dammit...but we/they are. I hated when Ice left because it was boring without him. And I'd hate to see Mike or Rob leave because both of them have a great deal to offer bowlers and this site.

And what people tend to forget is...when I first got here...I argued like MAD with Rob. I had my own ideas...they differed with his...and we'd go at it all the time. But Rob decided to "break this horse" by simply meeting me when I went to Vegas and giving me a bowling lesson. Then, over time...my views and positions changed...I admit I was wrong about a LOT of things...Rob (and Mike and others) were right about a lot of those things...but sometimes we have to come to those conclusions over time...and those who are more experienced have to accept that newer bowlers aren't just going to do what you say, no questions asked. And if you feel like you can't take it if someone questions you or disagrees with you...well, like I said...the internet is probably not for you.


Well being a know it all tool isn't quite a troll and this board turned into the wildwest awhile back. So we kind of got some slide.
Like I said, if you think this site is bad...I can direct you to 20 other sites that make this look like a church site. Bowl1820 and I may disagree from time to time, but he does an above average job of keeping things civil and providing excellent content despite really being the only moderator the site has.

Mudpuppy Cliff notes: where's Mudpuppy these days??

[bowl1820]

Okay I think this thread has got de-railed enough so we'll end it.

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