What's your opinion ? 14 / 15, design or ?

[Tony]

I have been throwing some practice games with my new 14lb Diva Divine (won here / thanks) and it's a nice ball.
Went out last week and the lanes were so greasy it just skidded. So decided yesterday to bring along my main
ball from last year a 15 lb Roto-Grip Hyper cell skid.

I alternated shots with each ball and it was very apparent that the hyper cell had better pin action and carry than the diva,
I played 2 full games like this and concluded the hyper-cell hit harder and carried more non-perfect shots than the diva.
My speed was a little higher with the diva 1 to 2 mph

They are different designed, weight balls with the diva being continuous motion and hyper cell a skid flip. Both are drilled in a standard pin up with pin above ring finger.

I am looking for some observations on why the hyper cell seems to hit harder and carry better.

Do you think it's the ball design itself, the weight difference, or something else? Thanks

[John Anderson]

Physics wise, 2mph is enough to give the 1lb lighter ball more momentum, thus eliminating that idea as to why the heavier ball hits harder. I'm going to guess that the energy transfer is different because of pocket entry angle and when the ball starts to get into a roll causing a loss of energy sooner with the Diva Divine. The hyper cell should retain energy longer since it is heavier and gives more of a snap type reaction thus allowing it to enter a roll very late in comparison and storing more energy.

I'm no expert though, this is just my theory which may not be right what so ever.

[Mike White]

Physics wise, 2mph is enough to give the 1lb lighter ball more momentum

You were good up to that point, then it fell apart.

Most of the problem is how you define "hit".

Hit should be measured as the probability of getting a strike.

Hit is a mixture of momentum, location, entry angle.

Location is the most important factor of the three, followed by entry angle, then momentum.

A 14 lb ball can be thrown faster, but to generate entry angle requires an increase in rev rate.

Generating a increase in rev rate becomes much harder as the ball speed increases.

If your hand at release is traveling the same speed as the ball, you generate a 0 rev rate off your hand.

To achieve a higher rev rate, your hand has to be traveling faster than the ball.

As you increase ball speed, your hand has to increase speed just the keep up with the ball speed increase, then increase even more to generate additional rev rate.

At 250 rpm, the surface of the ball is traveling at a rate of about 6.39 mph. so to throw a ball at 16 mph, and 250 rpm, your hand at release is traveling at 22.39 mph. or more.

To throw a ball at 18 mph, with 350 rpm, (350 rpm = 8.95 mph surface speed) your hand at release is traveling at 26.95 mph or more.

[Aslan]

I've been able to greatly improve my release by going from 16lbs to 15lbs recently....but I've also had carry issues that I wasn't experiencing with the 16lb equipment.

Since I keep rather meticulous stats...it's easier for me to see the differences. With 16lb balls, I rarely ever left an 8-pin. If I did, it was because I came in light and left the 1-2-8. But usually, with 16lb equipment...less deflection...if I hit the pocket, the ball would manage to send a pin into the 8-pin or the ball itself would take it out.

Now...I'm getting better angle, I'm overall striking better, I think I'm getting more rpms (although I haven't measured that yet), but I leave a lot more (statistically speaking) 8-10s and occasional single 8-pins. There 'could' be another reason for it...but the most LIKELY reason is the 15lb ball, even with the improved entry angle allowing for more striking...lighter hits aren't going to carry the 8-pin.

Nowadays everyone is convinced that lighter is the way to go...but when you challenge them by asking them whether we should all switch to 13lb, 10lb, or 6lb....suddenly they change their mind. If lighter is better...then lighter is better. If not, then it's not.

The vast, vast majority of people I see throwing 14lb or lighter are women, children, the elderly, or those with injuries (shoulder, elbow, wrist, etc...). The others that throw 14 or lower are generally the high rev thumbless bowlers. While 30 years ago it was mostly 16lb with some 15lb throw in...now it's by FAR mostly 15lb. MWhite might be able to give a more accurate estimate based on which customers bought 15lbs versus the other weights.

[Tony]

The vast, vast majority of people I see throwing 14lb or lighter are women, children, the elderly, or those with injuries (shoulder, elbow, wrist, etc...). The others that throw 14 or lower are generally the high rev thumbless bowlers. While 30 years ago it was mostly 16lb with some 15lb throw in...now it's by FAR mostly 15lb. MWhite might be able to give a more accurate estimate based on which customers bought 15lbs versus the other weights.

I have had Rotater cuff , bicep tendon and carpel tunnel surgeries on my right arm, I can throw a 15lb ball for 3 games with slight pain but if I want to practice and throw a few more balls I have quite a bit of trouble. I don't throw with a lot of revs, I just use a basic behind the ball 1/4 rotation release.
So judging by your stats would you would be more inclined to say the weight is the issue more than anything?

[ALazySavage]

Assuming a fair amount of factors: The balls are drilled to do similar things (I know it is symmetric vs asymmetric so it won't be the same), you are mechanically doing the same thing (ball speed, release, etc.) I would think of it as follows.

First thought would be that the Hyper Cell Skid simply matched up better to the pattern than the Diva; the combination of the core differential (asymmetric equipment tends to be more angular), the ball weight, and a ball that is generally "hooks" more may of just created better carry. In regards to the weight of a ball, if you can control all other factors - lane condition, core, surface, drilling, mechanics, ball roll (revs and roll characteristics) - the heavier ball will deflect less, which can be good or bad depending on the condition. Different weights can obviously effect mechanics in a variety of ways.

With all of that I can't say what the cause of the better carry was with the Hyper Cell, but you can probably come to the conclusion that it simply matched the condition you were bowling on better than the Diva.

[Tony]

You were good up to that point, then it fell apart.

Most of the problem is how you define "hit".

Hit should be measured as the probability of getting a strike.

Hit is a mixture of momentum, location, entry angle.

Location is the most important factor of the three, followed by entry angle, then momentum.

A 14 lb ball can be thrown faster, but to generate entry angle requires an increase in rev rate.

Generating a increase in rev rate becomes much harder as the ball speed increases.

If your hand at release is traveling the same speed as the ball, you generate a 0 rev rate off your hand.

To achieve a higher rev rate, your hand has to be traveling faster than the ball.

As you increase ball speed, your hand has to increase speed just the keep up with the ball speed increase, then increase even more to generate additional rev rate.

At 250 rpm, the surface of the ball is traveling at a rate of about 6.39 mph. so to throw a ball at 16 mph, and 250 rpm, your hand at release is traveling at 22.39 mph. or more.

To throw a ball at 18 mph, with 350 rpm, (350 rpm = 8.95 mph surface speed) your hand at release is traveling at 26.95 mph or more.


In my original description 'hit" was used with the basic definition, not a bowling specific definition of the word. As in "To strike or deal a blow".

It appears from observation that the 15lb hyper cell ball imparts more force at impact to the pins than the 14 lb diva ball.

The 14 lb ball is not being thrown with a much higher rev rate than the 15 lb ball, I am not trying to put more revs on the 14lb ball.

The reason to reduce weight was to save wear and tear on an arm that has already had more than it's share of surgery and I was told by many people the loss of carry
was minimal if any. It appears to be more than minimal between these two balls and outside of buying a 14 or 15 lb ball to give me a matching set on the same ball and testing it myself I am looking for outside assistance to help in deciding to stay with 14 or go back to 15 for this season.

[Mike White]

In my original description 'hit" was used with the basic definition, not a bowling specific definition of the word. As in "To strike or deal a blow".

It appears from observation that the 15lb hyper cell ball imparts more force at impact to the pins than the 14 lb diva ball.

The 14 lb ball is not being thrown with a much higher rev rate than the 15 lb ball, I am not trying to put more revs on the 14lb ball.

The reason to reduce weight was to save wear and tear on an arm that has already had more than it's share of surgery and I was told by many people the loss of carry
was minimal if any. It appears to be more than minimal between these two balls and outside of buying a 14 or 15 lb ball to give me a matching set on the same ball and testing it myself I am looking for outside assistance to help in deciding to stay with 14 or go back to 15 for this season.

MY point about the word hit, is people will watch a ball stop hooking, and roll flat thru the back ends and say that ball doesn't hit.

Now if might not hit in terms of knocking down pins in their assigned positions, but I surely doubt you would be willing to park your car at the end of the lane and let the ball "hit" your car.

It appears your choice is bowl potentially higher scores for a short period of time, or accept lower scores for a longer period of time.

The reason people years back dropped from 16 lbs to 15 (without injury) was when balls began to hook more, a 16 lbs ball could achieve both angle and momentum that would keep the ball from deflecting an effective amount. By decreasing the weight, the increased the deflection.

Back when "everybody" threw 16 lbs balls, they didn't hook much, so angle of entry was minimal. Accuracy was still the highest priority, and if you tried to throw the ball harder, it tended to reduce accuracy.

The game has changed, and the skill set required to beat your opponents has changed as well.

[billf]

I would bet you play outside and the Diva is encountering too much friction during the skid phase reducing the potential energy at impact.

[Mike White]

I would bet you play outside and the Diva is encountering too much friction during the skid phase reducing the potential energy at impact.

I'll take that bet, and you get the name the stakes.

If the ball is encountering "too much" friction, then it is no longer in the skid phase.

[billf]

I'll take that bet, and you get the name the stakes.

If the ball is encountering "too much" friction, then it is no longer in the skid phase.

So there are no variable to coefficient of friction? All or nothing? Come on Mike.

[billf]

There is friction during the entire skid phase. It's what allow that phase to end. So too much would shorten the skid phase causing the ball to enter the roll phase too soon. Without friciton axis rotation and ball speed wouldn't matter.

[Mike White]

So there are no variable to coefficient of friction? All or nothing? Come on Mike.

It's not so much ALL or nothing, there are degrees of Some to ALL, but the Skid phase has to be nothing.

Skid phase means no friction resulting in a straight path.

Hook phase means some friction causes a force not in line with the path of the ball, resulting in a parabolic path until the forces align with the path at the moment the hook phase ends.

Roll phase is back to a straight line because there are no forces to make the ball change direction (until it impacts pins).

[Tony]

I would bet you play outside and the Diva is encountering too much friction during the skid phase reducing the potential energy at impact.

I was standing with the inside edge of my left foot at board 22 and throwing over 11/12

[Mike White]

There is friction during the entire skid phase. It's what allow that phase to end. So too much would shorten the skid phase causing the ball to enter the roll phase too soon. Without friciton axis rotation and ball speed wouldn't matter.

Friction will cause the ball's rev rate to increase, and the ball to slow down.

In this video, at about the 3:00 mark and forward you see the graph of the ball's rev rate.

Once the ball hits the lane, the rev rate is very flat throughout the skid phase.

Not until much further down the lane does the rev rate begin to increase.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnXOm3cXSs0

[Aslan]

So judging by your stats would you would be more inclined to say the weight is the issue more than anything?

It's hard to say for certain. If I had no variables in my game at all...and just decreased weight...I could say with more certainty. All I can do at this point is look at the stats. And the data for post-15lbs isn't significant enough at this point. For example;

Single Pin Leaves:
8-pin: I've left the 8-pin by itself 69 times total (since roughly the beginning of 2013).
Since switching to 15lbs back in August; I've left the 8-pin 6 times.

So while I had the 16lb ball, I left the 8-pin 63 times over 21 months...exactly 3 times per month. I switched to the 15lb equipment and in 2 months have left it 6 times....for an identical rate of 3 times per month. The only single-pin I leave less often is the headpin. For the 8-10, I've left it 59 times total and 5 times in the last two months....again, both just shy of 3 times per month.

So statistically there would appear to be no difference. Which means it's either imaginary and in my head, or it's there but you have to compare non-quantitative elements....like...many of those weak hits that left an 8-9 with 16lb equipment, many were misses right where I just lucked into clipping the headpin. Of the 5-6 examples in the past couple months, those most often appear to be pocket hits where leaving the 8 or 8-10 is more aggravating.

[billf]

Basic science say any time two objects touch with at least one moving friction is generated. The increae in friction causes the hook phase. The more porous the surface the more friction that is generated sooner but it is a build up. Just as with an internal combustion engine, oil lubricates and REDUCES the friction between moving parts not eliminate it

[Mike White]

Basic science say any time two objects touch with at least one moving friction is generated. The increae in friction causes the hook phase. The more porous the surface the more friction that is generated sooner but it is a build up. Just as with an internal combustion engine, oil lubricates and REDUCES the friction between moving parts not eliminate it

The surface of the ball going down the lane doesn't change, it's the thickness of the oil between the ball and the lane surface that changes.

In the skid phase, the oil starts out thick enough to cause the equivalent of hydroplaning in your car.

[Aslan]

God…I wish Rob Mike and Bill would settle this dispute….with ROBOTS!!!

http://battlebots.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/feature-faceoff.jpg

I'm gonna recruit Bill Nye the Science Guy to come to this site…and in between discrediting creationism…he's gonna slap you with some science!!!

But still, first choice, ROBOTS. And have the battle in that barn that Iceman bowls in…maybe we'll get lucky and it'll get set on fire by one of the robots.

[Aslan]

Although…knowing Missouri…as soon as one of those robots enters the state…Missouri will induct it into the Missouri Sports Hall of Fame. :rolleyes: :cool:

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: Where the heck is ZDawg??!

[Aslan]

Wait…BiilF is back!!? We officially have TWO bowling Gods!! This is gonna get ugly…have we learned NOTHING from the Thor movies? Two Gods on the planet fighting takes out like 2/3 of a major city. Not to mention the Godzilla series….Japan has been wiped out and rebuilt like 14 times!!!

But still….robots...

[Mike White]

God…I wish Rob Mike and Bill would settle this dispute….with ROBOTS!!!

http://battlebots.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/feature-faceoff.jpg

I'm gonna recruit Bill Nye the Science Guy to come to this site…and in between discrediting creationism…he's gonna slap you with some science!!!

But still, first choice, ROBOTS. And have the battle in that barn that Iceman bowls in…maybe we'll get lucky and it'll get set on fire by one of the robots.

Those aren't robots, those are remote control toys.... dangerous toys, but still toys.

A Robot would examine the environment, and decide on it's own (based on previous programming) how to defend itself, and defeat the opponent.

What you have here is just a glorified video game.

[Tony]

I don't know if this pertains to the current robot aspect of the thread but I was actually able to play a couple of games on the league oil pattern using the 14lb ball.
In the first game I primarily played starting between 20 and 25 and throwing over 10 to 13, the results were poor leaving lots of pins, splits, some as a result of poor shooting and others seemed like good shots but left 10 pins, also missed some spares I should have hit and ended up with a 141

The second game I started the same way buy after 4 frames moved right and lined up between 15 and 20 and threw over 5-7, the results were much better with many more strikes and easier to convert spares, ended up shooting a 208 .

I tend to think along the line that the 14lb diva divine does not get enough grip in the heavy oil and is better suited to playing a down and in shot where it seemed to make a much stronger move to the pocket.

[Aslan]

Those aren't robots, those are remote control toys.... dangerous toys, but still toys.

A Robot would examine the environment, and decide on it's own (based on previous programming) how to defend itself, and defeat the opponent.

What you have here is just a glorified video game.

Fine, then you build a thinking nerd robot....and while it's analyzing the environment...Rob's or Bill's will cut of your legs and light you on fire.

[Mike White]

Fine, then you build a thinking nerd robot....and while it's analyzing the environment...Rob's or Bill's will cut of your legs and light you on fire.

Not if everyone is playing by the same rules.

But that would be too difficult.

TV audiences can't appreciate a device showing intelligence, they can appreciate sparks, and fly pieces.

So we get a dumbed down version of gladiators.

[billf]

Wait…BiilF is back!!? We officially have TWO bowling Gods!! This is gonna get ugly…have we learned NOTHING from the Thor movies? Two Gods on the planet fighting takes out like 2/3 of a major city. Not to mention the Godzilla series….Japan has been wiped out and rebuilt like 14 times!!!

But still….robots...

Post count means nothing. Now if the system had a way to substract wise cracks, unhelpful or insulting posts then it would be a different story. I love the sport and playing the game but am only a mortal man :D

[billf]

The surface of the ball going down the lane doesn't change, it's the thickness of the oil between the ball and the lane surface that changes.

In the skid phase, the oil starts out thick enough to cause the equivalent of hydroplaning in your car.

Mike, the ball surface doesn't change...no kidding. Thank you Captain Obvious. So then what you're saying is the drag coefficient of a dull and pearl ball are the same in the skid phase. If that's true and the only reason a ball hooks is because the oil gets thinner as you say then the core would be more important to a ball than surface. Any basic research into ball motion shows surface is the number one factor in ball motion. No PhD required, any person capable of reading with internet access can look it up.

BTW, what the hell happened that you now are such a wise cracking prick? Still have the pro shop? And thanks for never answering my layout PM two years ago, appreciate it.

[Mike White]

Mike, the ball surface doesn't change...no kidding. Thank you Captain Obvious. So then what you're saying is the drag coefficient of a dull and pearl ball are the same in the skid phase. If that's true and the only reason a ball hooks is because the oil gets thinner as you say then the core would be more important to a ball than surface. Any basic research into ball motion shows surface is the number one factor in ball motion. No PhD required, any person capable of reading with internet access can look it up.

And thanks for never answering my layout PM two years ago, appreciate it.


I've never said "the core would be more important to a ball than surface."

In fact I think the core is rather insignificant.

I've thrown a polished Columbia Scout, and it has a pancake core, but for me, the ball hooks a ton.

So clearly it's not the core that makes it hook.

I think what you are overlooking is a dull ball has microscopic mountain peaks, while a shiny ball has microscopic plateaus.

At a given thickness of out, a dull ball will "reach" thru the oil sooner, and therefore enter the hook phase sooner.

But both balls will hydroplane during the skid phase.

Work out the physics of a ball with a normal amount of axis rotation, and rev rate.

If there was friction the moment the ball was set on the lane, one friction related force vector will be in the opposite direction of the movement of the ball, while another will be in the direction of the axis rotation.

Multiply both of those vectors times the coefficient of friction (COF) during the skid phase, and the ball changes the direction of it's path.

For the ball to go straight in the skid phase, the COF during the skid phase must be 0.

As the oil thins out enough for the COF to increase, the force vectors times the COF cause a change in path of the ball.

That transition from the skid phase to the hook phase.

It's determined by ball surface, oil pattern, and ball speed.

In the car world.

A racing slick will hydroplane easier than a tire with tread on it.

A tire will hydroplane if there is sufficient water on the surface of the road.

Finally the car has to be traveling at a high enough speed to achieve the hydroplane state.


As for a PM two years ago, your comment now is the first I've heard of it.

[MICHAEL]

Post count means nothing. Now if the system had a way to substract wise cracks, unhelpful or insulting posts then it would be a different story. I love the sport and playing the game but am only a mortal man :D

JUST keep it REAL bill,,,, :rolleyes:,,, there is room for all of the above! If posts that were not REAL, were subtracted, there would only be ONE true god.. :p

[Mike White]

Post count means nothing. Now if the system had a way to substract wise cracks, unhelpful or insulting posts then it would be a different story. I love the sport and playing the game but am only a mortal man :D

JUST keep it REAL bill,,,, :rolleyes:,,, there is room for all of the above! If posts that were not REAL, were subtracted, there would only be ONE true god.. :p

Maybe not even one. But that's a whole other topic.

[Tony]

Maybe not even one. But that's a whole other topic.

Why stop now ? This thread has been on a whole other topic for days....

[bowl1820]

Why stop now ? This thread has been on a whole other topic for days....

We'll stop the train here.
http://ep1.pinkbike.org/p4pb6339846/p4pb6339846.jpg