Had our winter meeting and they actually changed something.

[bowl1820]

We had our winter league start up meeting tonight and they changed to a different handicap method.

We were using 90% of 230 and they changed it to 90% of Team Difference.

Example:
Team A has a team average of 633
Team B has a team average of 538

633-538 = a 95 difference, 90% of 95 = 85.5

So Team A gets 0 pins hdcp and Team B gets 85 pins.

Surprisingly nobody argued about it and it got changed.

Nothing else really changed.

Of interest though when the house told what services they offered this year, they offered Coaching (I don't think they had that last year).

On a casual or formal basis you just had to ask. (I'm not sure if it cost anything, they had some noise on the loudspeaker and I missed part of what they said).

Plus the usual like the Reward card, Play pass for unlimited open bowling and such.

[RobLV1]

The team difference method of handicap is used in virtually all of the high average leagues in the Vegas area, except most of them base the handicap on 80% and call them "almost scratch" leagues. The nice thing about the system is that it saves bowlers from looking up and seeing that the other team gets 350 pins of handicap, so there is less whining. LOL

[LyalC52]

One of the summer league we bowled in used the team average base 0 system
If was kinda confusing at first, but after a couple weeks it was no big deal

[bowl1820]

The team difference method of handicap is used in virtually all of the high average leagues in the Vegas area, except most of them base the handicap on 80% and call them "almost scratch" leagues. The nice thing about the system is that it saves bowlers from looking up and seeing that the other team gets 350 pins of handicap, so there is less whining. LOL

We could still have a one or two teams see close to that, Last winter we had a couple of 800+ ave teams. during the summer they had a 822 average team. The lowest average team would have got 326 pins hdcp from them.

The team difference system is okay (I've bowled it before) , a lot of the bowlers felt it would give them more of a chance against the high average teams.

To me it doesn't make that big of a difference , if you lost a game before using the other system, you most likely will lose it using this one. Except for really close games, like if you tied before you might win (or lose) using this.

At least it's something different, now if they would just try a different oil pattern.

[ChuckR]

The team difference method of handicap is used in virtually all of the high average leagues in the Vegas area, except most of them base the handicap on 80% and call them "almost scratch" leagues. The nice thing about the system is that it saves bowlers from looking up and seeing that the other team gets 350 pins of handicap, so there is less whining. LOL
I never noticed, but is that the way the TRIO's league at Red Rock is set up. Lee said there were some major proposals this year. See you on 9/10.

[RobLV1]

I never noticed, but is that the way the TRIO's league at Red Rock is set up. Lee said there were some major proposals this year. See you on 9/10.

Actually, you won't be seeing me during the day at Red Rock this year. Last year I found that the only league that I really enjoyed was an open league at Southpoint. This summer was very enjoyable also, with my only leagues being open leagues at night at Red Rock on Tuesday night, and Southpoint on Thursday night. I really enjoy bowling with the young people, whether in a high average money league or a recreational league. With this in mind, I'm staying away from senior leagues, at least for the time being. You know how to contact me if you'd like to get together to practice sometime.

[ALazySavage]

@Bowl1820: It is nice when you go to these meetings and they actually change something...rather than sitting through one and a half hours of bickering just to adopt the rules as they were when you started (this happened last night).

For a change that happened during one of my meetings it was this Sunday when the house decided to tell us during the meeting that they "just" reserved out the entire month of December and that we have to move our league to accommodate their reservation.

[Mark O]

@Bowl1820: It is nice when you go to these meetings and they actually change something...rather than sitting through one and a half hours of bickering just to adopt the rules as they were when you started (this happened last night).


I feel like you've just described every league meeting I've ever been to :D

We actually did make a change for once this year though, going with a match point system instead of a classic 5 point system. Looking forward to see how that changes things competitively!

[Tony]

I feel like you've just described every league meeting I've ever been to :D

We actually did make a change for once this year though, going with a match point system instead of a classic 5 point system. Looking forward to see how that changes things competitively!

Our league is mostly bickering but they do change something around every year, we had a start time of 6pm for 5 years last year they went to 630 because people were late all the time , this year they went back to 615 .... go figure since I took a class that goes until 545 across town.

We have tweaked our scoring using different formats we had a match play / head to head 1 point per bowler for a couple of years, it led to some jacking around lineups to get the best match up.
IE team a would put in line up team b would put in lineup / team a would change line up then team b would want to change ....it was a mess with certain teams. We on the other hand put our lineup in let them match to us and didn't worry about it.

At one time we had a system where there were 20 points per match, I don't even recall the breakdown.

[Mike White]

Our league is mostly bickering but they do change something around every year, we had a start time of 6pm for 5 years last year they went to 630 because people were late all the time , this year they went back to 615 .... go figure since I took a class that goes until 545 across town.

We have tweaked our scoring using different formats we had a match play / head to head 1 point per bowler for a couple of years, it led to some jacking around lineups to get the best match up.
IE team a would put in line up team b would put in lineup / team a would change line up then team b would want to change ....it was a mess with certain teams. We on the other hand put our lineup in let them match to us and didn't worry about it.

At one time we had a system where there were 20 points per match, I don't even recall the breakdown.

At one point in time, there was a rule that the team on the left lane had to establish their lineup first.

They couldn't change it until the first game was complete.

Repeat process for 2nd game, and 3rd.

The result was, lineups almost never changed during the night.

It seems a lot of rules from the ABC days have disappeared under USBC.

[bowl1820]

At one point in time, there was a rule that the team on the left lane had to establish their lineup first.

They couldn't change it until the first game was complete.

Repeat process for 2nd game, and 3rd.

The result was, lineups almost never changed during the night.

It seems a lot of rules from the ABC days have disappeared under USBC.


The rule is still there, they didn't drop it. Also you don't repeat the process for the 2nd & 3rd games. You hold the lineup for the series.

Unless the league adopts a different procedure.

USBC 2015-20116 rule book, page 28
100k. Match Point
A match point league is one in which team position standings include individual match points. Match
point leagues must follow these rules, unless the league has adopted a different procedure:
1. The team scheduled on the odd lane enters its lineup first.
2. No change may be made in the order of players in the lineup during a series. A substitute must take
the replaced bowler’s position in the lineup.
3. When bowling against an absentee or vacancy, to win the individual points the bowler must bowl at
least his/her average less ten (10) pins, unless the league rules have stated another number.
4. If each team has the same number of absentees and/or vacancies, the players present must be
placed in opposition to each other for individual matches and the winning team credited with the
points for the absentees/vacancies.
If one of two teams has an absentee or vacancy and a player on the opposing team is unable to
complete the series, any game in progress shall be completed with no change in the competing team’s
lineup. However, the lineup of the team that lost its player must be changed if necessary, to comply
with the provision of Item 4 above for any subsequent game(s) in the series.

[Mike White]

The rule is still there, they didn't drop it. Also you don't repeat the process for the 2nd & 3rd games. You hold the lineup for the series.

Unless the league adopts a different procedure.

USBC 2015-20116 rule book, page 28
100k. Match Point
A match point league is one in which team position standings include individual match points. Match
point leagues must follow these rules, unless the league has adopted a different procedure:
1. The team scheduled on the odd lane enters its lineup first.
2. No change may be made in the order of players in the lineup during a series. A substitute must take
the replaced bowler’s position in the lineup.
3. When bowling against an absentee or vacancy, to win the individual points the bowler must bowl at
least his/her average less ten (10) pins, unless the league rules have stated another number.
4. If each team has the same number of absentees and/or vacancies, the players present must be
placed in opposition to each other for individual matches and the winning team credited with the
points for the absentees/vacancies.
If one of two teams has an absentee or vacancy and a player on the opposing team is unable to
complete the series, any game in progress shall be completed with no change in the competing team’s
lineup. However, the lineup of the team that lost its player must be changed if necessary, to comply
with the provision of Item 4 above for any subsequent game(s) in the series.

The ability to change between games must have been a league specific add-on.

It's only been 30+ years since that league existed.

[bowl1820]

The ability to change between games must have been a league specific add-on.

It's only been 30+ years since that league existed.

You change lineup between games just not in match point leagues.

Commonly Asked Questions – Rule 104a.
104a/1 May a captain change the lineup from game to game?
Yes. Unless it is a match point league or there is a league rule to the contrary, a captain may
change the lineup from one game to the next. Rule 106b, Item 1, states that once a game
has started, no changes to the order can be made after the start of a game. The rule does not
place a restriction on making changes during a series. A captain may change the order of the
players, replace a substitute with a regular member or make any other lineup change from
one game to the next.

[Mike White]

You change lineup between games just not in match point leagues.

Commonly Asked Questions – Rule 104a.
104a/1 May a captain change the lineup from game to game?
Yes. Unless it is a match point league or there is a league rule to the contrary, a captain may
change the lineup from one game to the next. Rule 106b, Item 1, states that once a game
has started, no changes to the order can be made after the start of a game. The rule does not
place a restriction on making changes during a series. A captain may change the order of the
players, replace a substitute with a regular member or make any other lineup change from
one game to the next.

A match point league is one in which team position standings include individual match points. Match
point leagues must follow these rules, unless the league has adopted a different procedure:

[bowl1820]

A match point league is one in which team position standings include individual match points. Match
point leagues must follow these rules, unless the league has adopted a different procedure:

Your point being? that was stated in the post I didn't need to repeat it.

[Mike White]

Your point being? that was stated in the post I didn't need to repeat it.

Ok, if you want to play this game, what was your point of post #13?

I had said in #12, it must have been a league specific add-on.

You responded in #13 with

"You change lineup between games just not in match point leagues."

[bowl1820]

Ok, if you want to play this game, what was your point of post #13?

I had said in #12, it must have been a league specific add-on.

You responded in #13 with

"You change lineup between games just not in match point leagues."


Mike, I'm not trying to play a games with you.

The point of post #13 was just to show, That the ability to change lineup from game to game in other league types was allowed in the rules to begin with. It's not some "add-on" rule, but it is a rule that a league can modify if they wish.

[Mike White]

Mike, I'm not trying to play a games with you.

The point of post #13 was just to show, That the ability to change lineup from game to game in other league types was allowed in the rules to begin with. It's not some "add-on" rule, but it is a rule that a league can modify if they wish.

The league type being discussed was match point, not some other.

So the response USBC gave to the commonly asked question, was poorly written.

They said "Yes, unless (compound condition), a captain may change the lineup from one game to the next."

It's the compound condition that they messed up on.

1) it's a match point league.

or

2) there is a league rule to the contrary.

Part 2 would be in a non-match point league, where the league made a rule stating you can't change the order between games.

Part 1 leaves out the fact that a league rule can over-ride the default match point rule of no lineup changes between games.

In the actual rule that I quoted, and highlighted in red, the ability for the league to over-ride is included.

[bowl1820]

The league type being discussed was match point, not some other.

So the response USBC gave to the commonly asked question, was poorly written.

They said "Yes, unless (compound condition), a captain may change the lineup from one game to the next."

It's the compound condition that they messed up on.

1) it's a match point league.

or

2) there is a league rule to the contrary.

Part 2 would be in a non-match point league, where the league made a rule stating you can't change the order between games.

Part 1 leaves out the fact that a league rule can over-ride the default match point rule of no lineup changes between games.

In the actual rule that I quoted, and highlighted in red, the ability for the league to over-ride is included.

Yes, the league type being discussed was match point and my post of the match point rule addressed that.

My post of the Commonly Asked Question answer, beside what I said in post#17, was to also to say how other leagues have the ability to change lineups and the limits on how they could do it.

In both quotes (the rule and the Commonly Asked Questions that I posted) the statement about "the ability for the league to over-ride" "is" included in both. It's not just in the one you quoted in red.

As for your opinion that the rules are poorly written okay, a lot of people have said that. I myself think they could reword and make somethings clearer.

[Mike White]

Yes, the league type being discussed was match point and my post of the match point rule addressed that.

My post of the Commonly Asked Question answer, beside what I said in post#17, was to also to say how other leagues have the ability to change lineups and the limits on how they could do it.

In both quotes (the rule and the Commonly Asked Questions that I posted) the statement about "the ability for the league to over-ride" "is" included in both. It's not just in the one you quoted in red.

As for your opinion that the rules are poorly written okay, a lot of people have said that. I myself think they could reword and make somethings clearer.

There is nothing wrong with that rule, it's the answer to the commonly asked question.

If you think the ability for the league to over-ride "is" included in both, then all I can do is suggest you see if a local college has a class similar to https://www.coursera.org/course/intrologic that you can take.

You're parsing the sentence is incorrectly.

[bowl1820]

There is nothing wrong with that rule, it's the answer to the commonly asked question.

If you think the ability for the league to over-ride "is" included in both, then all I can do is suggest you see if a local college has a class similar to https://www.coursera.org/course/intrologic that you can take.

You're parsing the sentence is incorrectly.

The quoted commonly asked question is in regard to rule 104a Team Captain’s Authority under the USBC's general league rules and would apply to all league types, unless otherwise noted. It's About the question of if the captain can change lineup from game to game under those rules.

The CAQ says:

Yes, The captain can change lineup from game to game. (This applies to any league.)

Unless:

It is a match point league. ( Which means you can't change lineup from game to game in that league type.)
(now here they could have added, that you need to check rule "100k. Match Point" for the limits on changing lineups and other rules in that league type. So that it would be clear on what you could or could not do on that league.)

or

there is a league rule to the contrary. (this applies to any league type.)
(So if any league makes a rule that says you can't change lineup from game to game. then you can't)

[Tony]

The rule is still there, they didn't drop it. Also you don't repeat the process for the 2nd & 3rd games. You hold the lineup for the series.

Unless the league adopts a different procedure.

USBC 2015-20116 rule book, page 28
100k. Match Point
A match point league is one in which team position standings include individual match points. Match
point leagues must follow these rules, unless the league has adopted a different procedure:
1. The team scheduled on the odd lane enters its lineup first.
2. No change may be made in the order of players in the lineup during a series. A substitute must take
the replaced bowler’s position in the lineup.
3. When bowling against an absentee or vacancy, to win the individual points the bowler must bowl at
least his/her average less ten (10) pins, unless the league rules have stated another number.
4. If each team has the same number of absentees and/or vacancies, the players present must be
placed in opposition to each other for individual matches and the winning team credited with the
points for the absentees/vacancies.
If one of two teams has an absentee or vacancy and a player on the opposing team is unable to
complete the series, any game in progress shall be completed with no change in the competing team’s
lineup. However, the lineup of the team that lost its player must be changed if necessary, to comply
with the provision of Item 4 above for any subsequent game(s) in the series.

We did follow item 3 and 4 with vacant bowlers and 2 as well, number 1 was regularly violated ....as I recall no special rules being enacted by our league. Several of the teams always wanted the opposing team to do their lineup first so they could match up irregardless of the lane they were on.

[bowl1820]

We did follow item 3 and 4 with vacant bowlers and 2 as well, number 1 was regularly violated ....as I recall no special rules being enacted by our league. Several of the teams always wanted the opposing team to do their lineup first so they could match up irregardless of the lane they were on.

That's the thing about rules, if they don't enforce them. They don't mean much.

[Mike White]

The quoted commonly asked question is in regard to rule 104a Team Captain’s Authority under the USBC's general league rules and would apply to all league types, unless otherwise noted. It's About the question of if the captain can change lineup from game to game under those rules.

The CAQ says:

Yes, The captain can change lineup from game to game. (This applies to any league.)

Unless:

It is a match point league. ( Which means you can't change lineup from game to game in that league type.)
(now here they could have added, that you need to check rule "100k. Match Point" for the limits on changing lineups and other rules in that league type. So that it would be clear on what you could or could not do on that league.)

Ok, you see the missing part, and without that part, as long as it's a match point league, the captain would not be allowed to change the lineup



or

there is a league rule to the contrary. (this applies to any league type.)
(So if any league makes a rule that says you can't change lineup from game to game. then you can't)


This logically doesn't apply to a match point league because if the match point league didn't want lineups to change, they wouldn't need to make a league specific rule, it's already the default rule.

The only league specific rule in regards to changing lineups that a match point league could have, is allowing lineup changes.

The CAQ is poorly written, and does not follow the actual rules.

So again, you quoting the poorly written CAQ in post #13.... what is your point?

Maybe it wasn't clear from my post #10, I was referring to the rules in a match point league I had bowled in 30+ years ago.

In my early 20's, I wasn't interested in the politics of bowling, just turn the lights on so we can go kick some butt.

[John Anderson]

After reading through all this, all I can say is thank god I don't bowl with you guys in a league. Rules for a league should be defined at the beginning before it starts and that's it. No arguing necessary.

[Mike White]

After reading through all this, all I can say is thank god I don't bowl with you guys in a league. Rules for a league should be defined at the beginning before it starts and that's it. No arguing necessary.

That is the goal, but occasionally rules can be created, agreed upon and still be somewhat ambiguous.

[bowl1820]

Ok, you see the missing part, and without that part, as long as it's a match point league, the captain would not be allowed to change the lineup

This logically doesn't apply to a match point league because if the match point league didn't want lineups to change, they wouldn't need to make a league specific rule, it's already the default rule.

The only league specific rule in regards to changing lineups that a match point league could have, is allowing lineup changes.

The CAQ is poorly written, and does not follow the actual rules.

So again, you quoting the poorly written CAQ in post #13.... what is your point?

The CAQ may be poorly worded, but it's not that unclear.

The capt. can change lineup game to game in any league, except in a match point league. Unless a league rule stating otherwise.

As for it "logically doesn't apply to a match point", It didn't say it was referring to a match point league in the first place (and it pointed out it wasn't match point leagues. It was in regard to rule 104a Team Captain’s Authority and other leagues.

And I already stated my point, the CAQ was just to show, That the ability to change lineup from game to game in other league types was allowed.



Maybe it wasn't clear from my post #10, I was referring to the rules in a match point league I had bowled in 30+ years ago.

I had guessed that's what it was.


In my early 20's, I wasn't interested in the politics of bowling, just turn the lights on so we can go kick some butt.

That describes most bowlers, especially younger ones. They don't bother to read the rules, until someone tells them they can't do something and/or something doesn't go their way. (or theres the one's know the rules, but that don't care if the rules are being followed, as long as everything is going their way.)

[bowl1820]

After reading through all this, all I can say is thank god I don't bowl with you guys in a league. Rules for a league should be defined at the beginning before it starts and that's it. No arguing necessary.

The rules for the most part are defined at the beginning, But it's matter of interpretation after that.

No matter how clearly you try make the rules or try to make rules cover all the bases, someone is either not going to understand them or try interpret them in a way to benefit themselves or something will come up you never thought about.

Where as Mike wasn't interested in the politics of bowling. I was league president for several years and had to wade through this stuff several times.

Like having a team talking about wanting to post bowl after the end of the season, to make up week 1 of bowling they missed. (They were close to the top and those points could have made a difference.). and USBC rules gives you till 7 days after the end of the season to post bowl. Unless the league sets their own time limit rule.

If I remember right the point became moot at the end, a post bowl wouldn't have changed anything so didn't happen. (Plus the postponement committee didn't approve it anyway.)

But the next season we had a time limit put in.