I NEVER WANT TO MISS A TEN pin AGAIN

[MICHAEL]

I have a question, I don't think has ever been addressed on this site. NO, not how to pick it up, but rather a question about the ball itself.

I read were Norm Duke doesn't throw a plastic ball but many times just throws a back up ball.

I tried throwing a backup ball, with its reverse revolutions in the opposite direction, but it didn't feel right, off the hand.

Felt a little pain in the wrist.

Could this be because of the finger holes/thumb hole? Could a person go to a guy like Mike White, and change the positions of the finger holes to make it very comfortable to release the ball in that opposite direction?

Then when shooting the ten pin, (for a right handed person), you simple pull out the ball that was drilled with a more conducive natural feel when shooting the ten.

I know that plastic and a straight shoot is the best way, but there is very little forgiveness when you miss your mark!

I am wondering if the Norm Duke method could be made even easier, with a different configuration of the finger holes, and maybe even the pitch of the thumb hole?

I am not a driller, but I would like to hear from some of you drillers.

I NEVER miss the 7 pin on house oil,,, I move right and throw a strike ball,,, it arcs into the pin every time...

I would like to arc into the 10 pin with that same forgiving angle only in reverse.

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/canstock13541691_zps37312123.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/canstock13541691_zps37312123.jpg.html)

"Please Iceman, quit thinking of ways to pick me up!"

( Again, I know that most coaches say plastic! I am just wondering if this might be more forgiving on HOUSE OIL) I realize that Sports patterns, which few of us bowl, or can EVEN FIND, (this would not be a good option!)

[Mike White]

I have a question, I don't think has ever been addressed on this site. NO, not how to pick it up, but rather a question about the ball itself.

I read were Norm Duke doesn't throw a plastic ball but many times just throws a back up ball.

I tried throwing a backup ball, with its reverse revolutions in the opposite direction, but it didn't feel right, off the hand.

Felt a little pain in the wrist.

Could this be because of the finger holes/thumb hole? Could a person go to a guy like Mike White, and change the positions of the finger holes to make it very comfortable to release the ball in that opposite direction?

Then when shooting the ten pin, (for a right handed person), you simple pull out the ball that was drilled with a more conducive natural feel when shooting the ten.

I know that plastic and a straight shoot is the best way, but there is very little forgiveness when you miss your mark!

I am wondering if the Norm Duke method could be made even easier, with a different configuration of the finger holes, and maybe even the pitch of the thumb hole?

I am not a driller, but I would like to hear from some of you drillers.

I NEVER miss the 7 pin on house oil,,, I move right and throw a strike ball,,, it arcs into the pin every time...

I would like to arc into the 10 pin with that same forgiving angle only in reverse.

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/canstock13541691_zps37312123.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/canstock13541691_zps37312123.jpg.html)

"Please Iceman, quit thinking of ways to pick me up!"

( Again, I know that most coaches say plastic! I am just wondering if this might be more forgiving on HOUSE OIL) I realize that Sports patterns, which few of us bowl, or can EVEN FIND, (this would not be a good option!)

You can have the pitch angles changed to match how the ball will come off your hand in a backup release, but making the overall process comfortable... that would take some experimentation, and a LOT of practicing.

[MICHAEL]

You can have the pitch angles changed to match how the ball will come off your hand in a backup release, but making the overall process comfortable... that would take some experimentation, and a LOT of practicing.

I might later today, (on the seniors league at 1pm) take an older ball with me and have it plugged. The guy that runs the shop seems pretty knowledgeable. I will discuss this subject with him.
Mike have you ever drilled a ball for a back up bowler? If so, did you make the pitches and angles match that style of bowling more ergonomically, to suit the release?

This seems like a fun thing to try out.

Knowing that Norm Dude does it, with his go too ball, and does not have one drilled for the back up release, I am just thinking this could be a step in the direction toward that 200/220 average.

I am so on and OFF, in regards to throwing straight toward the 10... I am looking for that more forgiving angle, one similar to how I throw at the 7 pin


I know a couple really good, ( on house pattern league bowlers), that throw a great back up ball with rev's and good speed!

One has right at a 200 average.

[RobLV1]

The only reason that Norm doesn't use a plastic spare ball is because he doesn't want to lug it around from pair to pair during tournaments. The reason that Norm can back it up comfortably and you can't is because Norm starts his release with his hand behind the ball, and you start your release with your hand on the side of the ball to help it to hook. Before you get offended, 95% of house bowlers who learned to bowl before the mid-nineties, or who were taught by bowlers who learned before the mid-nineties do this. It has nothing to do with pitches or spans on your bowling ball. To throw a back up ball, start with your hand totally on the bottom of the ball with the weight centered where the index finger and the middle finger come together. Make sure that your hand is in that position at the beginning of the release and rotate it it clockwise around the inside of the ball. BTW, you can also do this with a plastic ball and get the best of both worlds (listen to Walter Ray when he throws plastic at spares, and hear the distinctive "thump, thump" as the ball rolls over the thumb hole.

[Amyers]

If you are using Norm Dukes method of throwing the back up ball the release does not change so the ball's pitches shouldn't really be different. In Norm's way of doing it your hand is on the inside of the ball and simply stays there for basic purposes producing a ball that rolls relatively straight to a slight back up. This is not the backup ball that you used to see on the Women's tour back in the 80's that moved boards his ball travels mostly straight.

I can do this with decent results the trick to it is making sure your hand is on the inside of the ball and not rotating around it. When I first started back to bowling this is how I picked up the 10 pin but I could never get better than about 70% or so.

Rob beat me to the punch with a better explanation see below lol :cool:

[Mike White]

Mike have you ever drilled a ball for a back up bowler? If so, did you make the pitches and angles match that style of bowling more ergonomically, to suit the release?

Every ball I drilled for a backup bowler was for a female,

For them, their span was a little longer than I would have used compared to a "normal" release.

If you watch someone who regularly throws a backup, you will see they let go of the ball well after the ball passes their ankle.

In the case of females (~99% of backup bowlers) they get their elbow turned into a position that to me should feel very uncomfortable.

One time a lady came in the get a new ball, she didn't bring a previous ball, and didn't indicate that she even had a previous ball.

So I measured her hand, checked to see that those measurements would come off of her hand properly, then drilled her a ball.

When we went down onto the lanes she lined up to throw the ball up the 10 board on the left hand side (she's a back up bowler).

As she let go of the ball, it slid to the arrows, then turned and hooked into the left gutter.

She had a surprised look on her face.

At that instant she was no longer a backup bowler.

She said she had tried to throw the ball "normal" before, but never could.

[Amyers]

Off target here but are dynamic cores the reason we don't really see female backup bowlers on tour or in the higher echelons of bowling? I've just kind of guessed this was the reason. I remember very well both styles being prevalent on the previous women's tour but you don't see nearly as much of it now and there is any that I've seen throwing that style on their now.

[Mike White]

If you are using Norm Dukes method of throwing the back up ball the release does not change so the ball's pitches shouldn't really be different. In Norm's way of doing it your hand is on the inside of the ball and simply stays there for basic purposes producing a ball that rolls relatively straight to a slight back up. This is not the backup ball that you used to see on the Women's tour back in the 80's that moved boards his ball travels mostly straight.

I can do this with decent results the trick to it is making sure your hand is on the inside of the ball and not rotating around it. When I first started back to bowling this is how I picked up the 10 pin but I could never get better than about 70% or so.

Rob beat me to the punch with a better explanation see below lol :cool:

But both of you missed the part where he wants to hook the ball left to right at the 10 pin, not thump thump it straight at the 10 pin.

[Mike White]

Off target here but are dynamic cores the reason we don't really see female backup bowlers on tour or in the higher echelons of bowling? I've just kind of guessed this was the reason. I remember very well both styles being prevalent on the previous women's tour but you don't see nearly as much of it now and there is any that I've seen throwing that style on their now.

A back up ball with a dynamic core is drilled very similar to a left handed drill pattern.

There was a Youtube video a year or two ago at the USBC Nationals, a team of 4 women, two were considered pros, all right handed, one of the non-pros threw a back up ball.

Most of the scores I saw them shoot were in the 230 - 250 range, with the back up bowler in there with the 230's.

[Amyers]

But both of you missed the part where he wants to hook the ball left to right at the 10 pin, not thump thump it straight at the 10 pin.

Can't speak for Rob but that was kind of the point of my post using Norm's method will not produce a ball that hooks right to left one that basically rolls straight

"If you are using Norm Dukes method of throwing the back up ball the release does not change so the ball's pitches shouldn't really be different. In Norm's way of doing it your hand is on the inside of the ball and simply stays there for basic purposes producing a ball that rolls relatively straight to a slight back up. This is not the backup ball that you used to see on the Women's tour back in the 80's that moved boards his ball travels mostly straight.

I can do this with decent results the trick to it is making sure your hand is on the inside of the ball and not rotating around it. When I first started back to bowling this is how I picked up the 10 pin but I could never get better than about 70% or so.

Rob beat me to the punch with a better explanation see below lol "

[RobLV1]

On the contrary, Mike. The back-up ball motion is not to get the ball to back up, but to roll straight despite a dynamic core that is designed to hook. As Norm explained it to me, "If I'm using a weak ball, I'll release it as to back it up one board; a medium ball, two boards, and a strong ball, three boards." He's not actually backing it up, just applying the exact amount of reverse turn to get the ball to go straight. Of course, he is Norm Duke. Most mere mortals are not capable of applying such precise release perameters to their bowling.

[Mike White]

On the contrary, Mike. The back-up ball motion is not to get the ball to back up, but to roll straight despite a dynamic core that is designed to hook. As Norm explained it to me, "If I'm using a weak ball, I'll release it as to back it up one board; a medium ball, two boards, and a strong ball, three boards." He's not actually backing it up, just applying the exact amount of reverse turn to get the ball to go straight. Of course, he is Norm Duke. Most mere mortals are not capable of applying such precise release perameters to their bowling.

Go back and reread the post by Iceman,

He wanted something like Norm Duke, but "easier".

Like how Iceman picks up the 7 pin, but in the opposite direction.

[Amyers]

Go back and reread the post by Iceman,

He wanted something like Norm Duke, but "easier".

Like how Iceman picks up the 7 pin, but in the opposite direction.

Actually Mike this is exactally what Ice asked " am wondering if the Norm Duke method could be made even easier, with a different configuration of the finger holes, and maybe even the pitch of the thumb hole?"

The answer is No the Norm Duke method doesn't do that to begin with regardless of how the ball is drilled it's ball rolling as Rob and I described.

[Amyers]

If you want to throw the big backup as Mike stated it's going to require you getting the elbow in that almost bent inside position that I just don't think conforms well to the male anatomy. Learning the Norm Duke release and using it with your spare ball gives you the best of both worlds. I'm still working on in hopefully I'll change over to that method sometime this fall.

[RobLV1]

Go back and reread the post by Iceman,

He wanted something like Norm Duke, but "easier".

Like how Iceman picks up the 7 pin, but in the opposite direction.

Okay, Mike, I guess I wasn't clear enough for you. There is nothing about Norm Duke's way of picking up ten pins that is "easier" for anyone other than Norm Duke. Michael: stick with the plastic ball and practice ten pins until you can pick up 5 in a row. Then practice them until you can pick up 10 in a row. Then, 15, then 20, etc. Before you know it, the ten pin will be like any other single pin spare.

[Tony]

It would seem that if ICE had a ball drilled up for his right hand as if it was the left hand of a lefty the core would help the ball turn right and he would not have to throw a backup but throw a flat ball and it would have a left to right "hooking " ball motion. If he used an aggressive gradual hooking ball and took the finish down to a 1000 or 500 it might work.

[RobLV1]

It would seem that if ICE had a ball drilled up for his right hand as if it was the left hand of a lefty the core would help the ball turn right and he would not have to throw a backup but throw a flat ball and it would have a left to right "hooking " ball motion. If he used an aggressive gradual hooking ball and took the finish down to a 1000 or 500 it might work.

But, why?

[Mike White]

But, why?

The WHY is because that is what Iceman was asking about.

He already acknowledged that most coaches would recommend plastic.

He was just interested in an alternate method that might be easier for Iceman.


Iceman, next time don't mention famous names.

It's like a shiny lure to the fish.

They lose all focus, and can only think about the shiny object.

[Aslan]

There is no way to never miss a 10-pin....unless you never leave one or bowl consistent 900 series.

I think many people can get away with using their strike ball for spares with a lateral movement system. I did it for a long time....finally switched after it cost me a game or two in the now defunct Virtual Bowling Tour. Even with my lower rev rate...a 1-2 board that is excessively dry can be just enough to make you miss. And that's a miss that is certainly on ME for being stubborn. But, there and then I swore I wouldn't have that problem anymore...and the next weekend had a plastic spare ball (from MWhite).

[Mike White]

There is no way to never miss a 10-pin....unless you never leave one or bowl consistent 900 series.

What skill level is required to never leave a 10 pin?

What skill level is required to bowl consistent 900 series?

Somehow you think the skill level required to never miss a 10 pin is even higher?

[Tony]

But, why?

Simply because he thinks that with a ball that hooks it might be possible to pick up 10 pins like he picks up 7's and enable him to convert more 9 - into /

[Tony]

There is no way to never miss a 10-pin....unless you never leave one or bowl consistent 900 series.

I think many people can get away with using their strike ball for spares with a lateral movement system. I did it for a long time....finally switched after it cost me a game or two in the now defunct Virtual Bowling Tour. Even with my lower rev rate...a 1-2 board that is excessively dry can be just enough to make you miss. And that's a miss that is certainly on ME for being stubborn. But, there and then I swore I wouldn't have that problem anymore...and the next weekend had a plastic spare ball (from MWhite).

According to stats from ESPN the PBA first ball strike was 61 % and 10 pin conversion was 96% , this was a couple of years ago .... certainly a much better chance to convert 100 % of your 10 pins over a given time than shoot 300 games.

[billf]

I think I"m comprehending what Michael is saying. His strike ball hooks at a consistent rate. Attempting to throw the same hook at the ten pin turns into an adventure, plastic is too common and Norm is Norm. The idea is intrgueing. I wonder if Michael is trying to 'force' the elbow into the wrong direction. A ball drilled with the core flipped would work but only if Michael was completely behind the ball. Even then there would be a margin of error as that release become comfortable and worse yet, would it affect the feel of his normal release?

MikeWhite, did I do OK at avoiding the shiny object? ha ha that did make me chuckle.

[Mike White]

I think I"m comprehending what Michael is saying. His strike ball hooks at a consistent rate. Attempting to throw the same hook at the ten pin turns into an adventure, plastic is too common and Norm is Norm. The idea is intrgueing. I wonder if Michael is trying to 'force' the elbow into the wrong direction. A ball drilled with the core flipped would work but only if Michael was completely behind the ball. Even then there would be a margin of error as that release become comfortable and worse yet, would it affect the feel of his normal release?

MikeWhite, did I do OK at avoiding the shiny object? ha ha that did make me chuckle.

Your attention may have been removed from the shiny object, but you aren't focusing on Iceman's request.

Iceman didn't say throwing a the same hook was what he had problems with, although if he tried, I expect he like 99% of bowlers would.

He said with plastic there wasn't enough room for error.

His experience shooting at a 7 pin using the strike ball and the wall of oil gave him enough room for error.

He wanted a way to mirror the process, to use the other side of the wall to guide a ball into a 10 pin.

[Tony]

What skill level is required to never leave a 10 pin?

What skill level is required to bowl consistent 900 series?

Somehow you think the skill level required to never miss a 10 pin is even higher?

Good Point !
I have no doubt that both those feats are all but impossible, however given the statistics of the PBA bowlers the rate of converting 10 pins far exceeds that of throwing 300 games, I can't see how Asian can make that argument.

[ALazySavage]

Something to add or think about when discussing the back up ball thrown by Norm Duke, we are talking about a bowler who may be more specific about the feel of his ball than any one else. I remember talking to a storm staffer at nationals when they had balls of various pros out on display, one being Norm Duke. The thumb hole had 3-5 ovals drilled into it and split white tape in the front. While a large portion of this back up ball skill is repitition, I would have to think that a superior fit has a significant role in this.

[bowl1820]

we are talking about a bowler who may be more specific about the feel of his ball than any one else.

Norm Duke is well known for tinkering with his thumbhole to get that perfect fit during bowling. He's a "tape master", when you wanted to learn how to put tape in a ball, He was the one to watch.

Here's a old article that tells about him and his fit, I'm sure he's made changes since then. But it should give some insight into how he does things with his fit.


http://www.kegel.net/v3/ArticleDetails.aspx?ID=43


Here's a photo of Norms thumbhole, which shows the oval notch and where they scribed the 1/8" offset they talk about in the article.
http://s5.postimg.org/s31pvxix3/Dukethumb2.jpg

[billf]

Interesting article. Of paticular interest to me was the section discussing lateral thumb pitches. Now I'm going to pay attention to release position of bowlers and their lateral pitch.

[RobLV1]

So I was thinking about this thread as I was driving home from bowling pot games this morning (yes, I realize that I really have no life!). Inititially, Michael asked about throwing a backup ball, using reactive resin, at the ten pin to give himself the same "miss room" when throwing at ten pins, that he has with his strike shot while hooking the ball into the pocket. The one thing that none of us bothered to address was what causes this miss room: for a right hander, there is friction to the right, and oil to the left on the strike ball, so if the ball misses right, it hooks back to the pocket, and if it misses left, it finds more oil that helps it to hold pocket. For a right hander throwing a backup ball with a reactive bowling ball, there is oil on the left, so if the backup ball misses left it finds more oil and misses the ten pin to the left, and if it misses right, it gets into the friction and backs up more, missing the ten pin on the right. For this reason, the best chance of picking up a ten pin is using a plastic ball that, using a normal release, will still give you the most miss room possible while attempting to pick up ten pins. Add to this, the fact that 99% of the top bowlers in the world throw plastic at spares certainly attests to the fact that your greatest chance at success in picking up ten pins is to use a plastic spare ball and practice A LOT!

Next, the thread got sidelined into this who discussion of Norm Dukes ability to use a reactive ball and throw it straight by using a backup release. First, Norm Duke does not use a special drilling to throw a back-up ball at the ten pin. To do so would negate his whole reason for not using plastic: he doesn't want to carry the extra ball! Hopefully, all of you have a PSO who is capable of drilling a ball that fits your hand perfectly. If you don't, find one!

Michael, you who have talked about "the gift" extensively in the past will certainly understand this: in terms of controlling the motion of a bowling ball, Norm Duke is as close to a bowling God as it gets! He can play everywhere from the right gutter to the left gutter. He truly has "the gift." Though we've had our differences in the past, please believe me when I tell you that I have your best interests at heart: practice with the plastic ball - anything else will just delay the inevitable conclusion that you as an intelligent bowler will come to... using a plastic spare ball gives you the best chance for picking up ten pins. Period.

[Mike White]

So I was thinking about this thread as I was driving home from bowling pot games this morning (yes, I realize that I really have no life!). Inititially, Michael asked about throwing a backup ball, using reactive resin, at the ten pin to give himself the same "miss room" when throwing at ten pins, that he has with his strike shot while hooking the ball into the pocket.

Nope, he wanted the same miss room he has when shooting at a 7 pin. Similar, but different.


The one thing that none of us bothered to address was what causes this miss room: for a right hander, there is friction to the right, and oil to the left on the strike ball, so if the ball misses right, it hooks back to the pocket, and if it misses left, it finds more oil that helps it to hold pocket. For a right hander throwing a backup ball with a reactive bowling ball, there is oil on the left, so if the backup ball misses left it finds more oil and misses the ten pin to the left, and if it misses right, it gets into the friction and backs up more, missing the ten pin on the right.

Again, Nope, he wanted to throw the back up ball on the left side of the lane, making the dry area to his left, and the oil to his right.


For this reason, the best chance of picking up a ten pin is using a plastic ball that, using a normal release, will still give you the most miss room possible while attempting to pick up ten pins. Add to this, the fact that 99% of the top bowlers in the world throw plastic at spares certainly attests to the fact that your greatest chance at success in picking up ten pins is to use a plastic spare ball and practice A LOT!

I told him the back up method would require a lot of practice as well.

[RobLV1]

While the miss room would be on his left initially, once the ball gets down the lane and finds the area where the righties have ripped up a large area, it's on his right. I'm glad you told him that the back up method would require a lot of practice as well. Too bad you didn't tell him to practice using a plastic spare ball like you do, I do, and a great majority of top bowlers do as well. Once again, it's not all about you, Mike, regardless of how badly you want it to be. Try helping people instead of just trying to make yourself look superior.

[Mike White]

While the miss room would be on his left initially, once the ball gets down the lane and finds the area where the righties have ripped up a large area, it's on his right. I'm glad you told him that the back up method would require a lot of practice as well. Too bad you didn't tell him to practice using a plastic spare ball like you do, I do, and a great majority of top bowlers do as well. Once again, it's not all about you, Mike, regardless of how badly you want it to be. Try helping people instead of just trying to make yourself look superior.

The only thing in this thread that was about me, was when Iceman asked if I had drilled balls for backup bowlers.

I answered Iceman's questions the way he asked them, not with an agenda on how the game is supposed to be played.

We have a no thumb guy who shoots his 10 pin spares using exactly the path Iceman is describing, and is rather successful with it.

I don't try to make myself look superior... ha ha ha I guess it just happens naturally.

I know it bothers you when I correct your mistakes, but if someone comes here and only reads your comments, and nobody disputed it, they might think it's an accepted fact.

[RobLV1]

The only thing in this thread that was about me, was when Iceman asked if I had drilled balls for backup bowlers. Have you drilled balls for bowlers who hook the ball and just want a back-up ball to throw at ten pins?

I answered Iceman's questions the way he asked them, not with an agenda on how the game is supposed to be played. If he asked you how to bowl while standing on his head, would you try to tell him, or tell him that it's probably not a good idea?

We have a no thumb guy who shoots his 10 pin spares using exactly the path Iceman is describing, and is rather successful with it. Iceman isn't a no thumb guy.

I don't try to make myself look superior... ha ha ha I guess it just happens naturally. I think I'm going to be sick!

I know it bothers you when I correct your mistakes, but if someone comes here and only reads your comments, and nobody disputed it, they might think it's an accepted fact. Just because I don't always agree with you doesn't mean that I made a mistake, it just means that we disagree.

1. Have you ever drilled a ball for a bowler who hooks the ball, but just wants to back a ball up at the ten pin?
2. If he asked you how to bowl while standing on his head would you tell him, or would you simply say that it's probably not a good idea?
3. Iceman isn't a no thumb bowler.
4. I think I'm going to be sick!
5. Just because I don't agree with you, doesn't make my opinion a mistake. Funny, but the people who read my BTM articles either agree with them or don't agree with them without ever calling me names.

[Tony]

I am thinking the solution to Iceman's 10 pin shooting with a margin error for is obvious, he should throw a lefty strike ball with his left hand, it will have the exact same margin as throwing right handed at the 7 pin , problem solved....if there is a rule prohibiting that, just ignore it and tell them it was a backup ball !

[Mike White]

1. Have you ever drilled a ball for a bowler who hooks the ball, but just wants to back a ball up at the ten pin?
2. If he asked you how to bowl while standing on his head would you tell him, or would you simply say that it's probably not a good idea?
3. Iceman isn't a no thumb bowler.
4. I think I'm going to be sick!
5. Just because I don't agree with you, doesn't make my opinion a mistake. Funny, but the people who read my BTM articles either agree with them or don't agree with them without ever calling me names.

If I just ignore this someone is going to think you are correct, so I have to ask.

IF you feel I've called you names, please show us some of the links where you felt this happened.

My comments are about the things you post, not about you as a person.

[Mike White]

I am thinking the solution to Iceman's 10 pin shooting with a margin error for is obvious, he should throw a lefty strike ball with his left hand, it will have the exact same margin as throwing right handed at the 7 pin , problem solved....if there is a rule prohibiting that, just ignore it and tell them it was a backup ball !

Are you saying Iceman should cheat?

That's not going to fly.

[Tony]

Are you saying Iceman should cheat?

That's not going to fly.

Figures there is a rule .....

[Mike White]

Figures there is a rule .....

There isn't a rule at the PBA level, or at the open bowling level, but there is at the USBC level.

[Tony]

There isn't a rule at the PBA level, or at the open bowling level, but there is at the USBC level.

Chances are it wouldn't have helped him anyway. but good to know.

[Jessiewoodard57]

I was using a plastic spare ball but would miss the 10 way too often. My strike ball is a Storm Crux Pearl but it has also become my spare ball especially for the 6, 10 and 10 pin spares. I approach is at the 39 board and roll it across at the 15th board more times then not it makes the turn and rolls perfectly straight down the 2,3 board. ( by the way learned that one from someone here)

[Aslan]

What skill level is required to never leave a 10 pin?

What skill level is required to bowl consistent 900 series?

Somehow you think the skill level required to never miss a 10 pin is even higher?

Pro level bowlers when they bowl...what happens 90% of the time? STRIKE of 10-pin (for righties and most people are righties). I've seen matches where all the pro bowler leaves are 10-pins....everything else is a strike.

So, from that standpoint...10-pins are sometimes left because of very minor, tiny, incremental things....like a pin spot...or 0.2mph speed difference...or < 1 board miss...etc...

So yeah, if you're an elite bowler...bowling no-tap...I'm thinking a 900 series is not gonna be that scarce...because no tap takes the 10-pin out of the equation. But in standard bowling (non-no-tap)...you're going to leave corner pins....even when you repeat your shot in some cases....even when you hit pocket. It's inevitable.

[Aslan]

According to stats from ESPN the PBA first ball strike was 61 % and 10 pin conversion was 96% , this was a couple of years ago .... certainly a much better chance to convert 100 % of your 10 pins over a given time than shoot 300 games.

TRUE...but that wasn't my comparison. I was comparing striking 36 times in a row versus never leaving a 10-pin.

Whats more likely? A 900 Series OR....

....going a series and not leaving a corner pin?
....going a month and not leaving a corner pin?
....going a year and not leaving a corner pin?

How many 300 games at the WSOB? How many 800 series? How many players can say they bowled even 6 games straight and never left a corner pin?

See my point?

And as to Iceman's question about how to become even more Gifted than he is (some states refer to gifted as "special")...he's making a common mistake...one that I made early on...and so have numerous others....and that fallacy is the belief that a hooking ball at a 10-pin (for a righty) gives you some kind of "miss room". Everyone likes to picture that time the ball almost went in the gutter but grabbed just enough to hit the pin....yet these same people have completely blocked out all the times they missed by an inch or two left because the ball hooked just a tiny bit.

[Amyers]

TRUE...but that wasn't my comparison. I was comparing striking 36 times in a row versus never leaving a 10-pin.

Whats more likely? A 900 Series OR....

....going a series and not leaving a corner pin?
....going a month and not leaving a corner pin?
....going a year and not leaving a corner pin?

How many 300 games at the WSOB? How many 800 series? How many players can say they bowled even 6 games straight and never left a corner pin?

See my point?

And as to Iceman's question about how to become even more Gifted than he is (some states refer to gifted as "special")...he's making a common mistake...one that I made early on...and so have numerous others....and that fallacy is the belief that a hooking ball at a 10-pin (for a righty) gives you some kind of "miss room". Everyone likes to picture that time the ball almost went in the gutter but grabbed just enough to hit the pin....yet these same people have completely blocked out all the times they missed by an inch or two left because the ball hooked just a tiny bit.

Exactly true

[NewToBowling]

I picked up a spare ball for the sole purpose of picking up 10 pin and 6-10 spares. I used to use my strike ball but more times than not it hooked too much to be really effective. I still use my strike ball for all other spares though

[Tony]

I was using a plastic spare ball but would miss the 10 way too often. My strike ball is a Storm Crux Pearl but it has also become my spare ball especially for the 6, 10 and 10 pin spares. I approach is at the 39 board and roll it across at the 15th board more times then not it makes the turn and rolls perfectly straight down the 2,3 board. ( by the way learned that one from someone here)

Whatever works the best for you is the thing to do, I used to do the same thing, and when I was on I got them all, but when I was off missed them all. The reason I ended up getting a spare ball was when I started using the hyper cell skid ball, no matter what I tried the ball would hook away from the 10 pin at the last second and I was missing way too many.
After some dedicated practice I have found if I hit my mark the plastic ball gets the 10 every time !
Funny thing yesterday I was at a ball demo and the guy in front of me kept leaving 10 pins and didn't want to shoot at them...the reset was not working so I shot a few for him, never missed once and I was using a Guru Master ....tons of hook, guess it was one of those on days !

[Tony]

TRUE...but that wasn't my comparison. I was comparing striking 36 times in a row versus never leaving a 10-pin.

Whats more likely? A 900 Series OR....

....going a series and not leaving a corner pin?
....going a month and not leaving a corner pin?
....going a year and not leaving a corner pin?

How many 300 games at the WSOB? How many 800 series? How many players can say they bowled even 6 games straight and never left a corner pin?

See my point?

And as to Iceman's question about how to become even more Gifted than he is (some states refer to gifted as "special")...he's making a common mistake...one that I made early on...and so have numerous others....and that fallacy is the belief that a hooking ball at a 10-pin (for a righty) gives you some kind of "miss room". Everyone likes to picture that time the ball almost went in the gutter but grabbed just enough to hit the pin....yet these same people have completely blocked out all the times they missed by an inch or two left because the ball hooked just a tiny bit.

I do see your point, I was just looking for a solution that matched what Ice wanted... I am throwing a spare ball at 10's 6-10 and have found when I hit my mark I make 100% of the shots, I am practicing and getting better and better at hitting it. I will certainly hit more 10 pins this way than I ever did throwing a strike ball at it.
I am going to suggest ice throw a plastic ball between the legs at all 10 pins from now on !

[Mike White]

Pro level bowlers when they bowl...what happens 90% of the time? STRIKE of 10-pin (for righties and most people are righties). I've seen matches where all the pro bowler leaves are 10-pins....everything else is a strike.

So, from that standpoint...10-pins are sometimes left because of very minor, tiny, incremental things....like a pin spot...or 0.2mph speed difference...or < 1 board miss...etc...

So yeah, if you're an elite bowler...bowling no-tap...I'm thinking a 900 series is not gonna be that scarce...because no tap takes the 10-pin out of the equation. But in standard bowling (non-no-tap)...you're going to leave corner pins....even when you repeat your shot in some cases....even when you hit pocket. It's inevitable.

I think statistics show that approximately 60% of first ball shots result in strikes.

Of the 40% that don't, 25% result in the lone 10 pin, or 10% of all first ball attempts result in the lone 10 pin.

That would mean that 70% result in strike or 10 pin, instead of 90% you estimate.

Your comparison was:

"There is no way to never miss a 10-pin....unless you never leave one or bowl consistent 900 series."

Let say a bowler has stats of 60% success rate at throwing strikes, 90% success rate at not leaving a 10 pin, 95% success rate at making the lone 10 pin spare.

What is that bowlers chance at going a full series and achieving each of the three things you are comparing.

1) never miss a 10 pin.. in 30 frames, the bowler will on average leave 3 lone 10 pins. At a 95% success rate per attempt, the bowler has a 0.95^3 = 85.7% chance of completing the series without a missed 10 pin.
2) never leave a 10 pin.. At a 90% success rate per attempt, the bowler has a 0.9^30 = 4.2% chance of completing the series without leaving a 10 pin.
3) bowl consistent 900.. At a 60% succes rate per attempt, the bowlers has a 0.6^36 = .0000001% chance of completing a series of 900.

Clearly to achieve #3, or even #2 is going to take a lot more skill than #1.

[Mike White]

TRUE...but that wasn't my comparison. I was comparing striking 36 times in a row versus never leaving a 10-pin.

Whats more likely? A 900 Series OR....

....going a series and not leaving a corner pin?
....going a month and not leaving a corner pin?
....going a year and not leaving a corner pin?

How many 300 games at the WSOB? How many 800 series? How many players can say they bowled even 6 games straight and never left a corner pin?

See my point?

And as to Iceman's question about how to become even more Gifted than he is (some states refer to gifted as "special")...he's making a common mistake...one that I made early on...and so have numerous others....and that fallacy is the belief that a hooking ball at a 10-pin (for a righty) gives you some kind of "miss room". Everyone likes to picture that time the ball almost went in the gutter but grabbed just enough to hit the pin....yet these same people have completely blocked out all the times they missed by an inch or two left because the ball hooked just a tiny bit.

What you describe above is not the comparison you were making before.

"There is no way to never miss a 10-pin....unless you never leave one or bowl consistent 900 series."

Yes it's difficult to never leave a ten pin,
Yes it's difficult to never not strike.

But what you claimed was more difficult was to never miss a 10 pin spare attempt.

So no, we don't see your point.

And as odd as you may think it, when you hook the ball from left to right at the 10 pin, the 10 pin becomes a wider target. Controlling that hook however is more difficult.

If there is enough help from the wall of oil, it may be easier, only one way to know for sure.

With Iceman wanting to try something different, and people saying he should use the Norm Duke, or Walter Ray style, those people should stop and think about history.

Before either of those two came along, someone else was the best spare shooter, so should Norm and Walter have been told to copy that person, or was it better that they develop their own style that ended up being even better?

[Amyers]

Before either of those two came along, someone else was the best spare shooter, so should Norm and Walter have been told to copy that person, or was it better that they develop their own style that ended up being even better?

I don't think anyone suggested that Ice completely copy Norm or Walter Ray. The point was that he would be more likely to find success if took points from thier style to incorporate into his game would be more likely to have success than trying to develop an very unusual style that will be unlikely to be better than the traditional method.

Most above average bowlers can make the pin 80-95% of the time so it's not like it's an impossible shot or anything. It is possible there is something in Ice's style that prevents his making the shot. If so trying something else maybe best but unless he has exhausted all the other possibilities I wouldn't suggest this method.

Ice is a grown man an perfectly capable of making his own decisions you've informed him of ball options if chooses to follow that path. Other have stated perfectly reasonable reasons why not to do this. As always it's up to the bowler to decide.

[jlwonderley]

Every ball I drilled for a backup bowler was for a female,

For them, their span was a little longer than I would have used compared to a "normal" release.

If you watch someone who regularly throws a backup, you will see they let go of the ball well after the ball passes their ankle....

Yes! I don't own a plastic ball. I throw a straight release and never really though about it before. You are right, I do have a late release when throwing straight at the 10 pin, out past the ankle, and with a little bit of loft sometimes. I start with my wrist "broken back" too.

You've just made me realize why it's starting hooking away a bit recently, and I couldn't seem to get it have a completely forward spin anymore. It's cause I've stopped delaying the release on my 10 pins anymore, although why I'll have to figure out.

[Jessiewoodard57]

Whatever works the best for you is the thing to do, I used to do the same thing, and when I was on I got them all, but when I was off missed them all. The reason I ended up getting a spare ball was when I started using the hyper cell skid ball, no matter what I tried the ball would hook away from the 10 pin at the last second and I was missing way too many.
After some dedicated practice I have found if I hit my mark the plastic ball gets the 10 every time !
Funny thing yesterday I was at a ball demo and the guy in front of me kept leaving 10 pins and didn't want to shoot at them...the reset was not working so I shot a few for him, never missed once and I was using a Guru Master ....tons of hook, guess it was one of those on days !

I could see the Hyper Cell missing a lot that ball has a monstrous backend. If I am using a ball other than my Crux and leave a 6, 10 or just the 10 I do go to the Crux for those spares so in that case my Crux is a spare ball. I just seem to have issues throwing a straight ball.