So What are the Odds/Tournament Question

[go dart]

After finishing a summer league there was a combined 4 AMF center tournament for 4 person teams with first place worth $8000. About 66 teams participated and your league handicap carried over. The purse is being held up as the team that won 1st place had a 112 average bowler bowl 3 consecutive games over 210 and AMF disqualified the team. They've protested and I believe I understand its gone to the UBC for a final answer. I do find it hard to believe a 112 bowler shooting 3 games at 100 pins over average and what timing I might add. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[NewToBowling]

Sounds like sandbagging to me.

How many games did they play to set their 112 average. If it's over a span of a full league then shooting 100 pins over 3 games is sandbagging in my eyes.

[go dart]

Sounds like sandbagging to me.

How many games did they play to set their 112 average. If it's over a span of a full league then shooting 100 pins over 3 games is sandbagging in my eyes.

I tried to remember. I want to say we started in June.

[Tony]

Seems to me if it's a normal 13 week or so season, the odds of a actual 112 bowler shooting a 630 sounds like a severe sandbagging situation....there is no way that should be allowed.

[Amyers]

Only way I can think of without sandbagging is injury. Even then I wouldn't accept it.

[go dart]

Seems to me if it's a normal 13 week or so season, the odds of a actual 112 bowler shooting a 630 sounds like a severe sandbagging situation....there is no way that should be allowed.

Well I believe so as well. Our team of fairly modest ( 155-154-165-171) bowlers placed 6th which splits $900.00 if the disqualification holds up. We have a young fellow on the team who could pay most of his next league dues if we cash.

[foreverincamo]

Sounds suspicious to me. Usually a sandbagger will hold around a 175 average then bust out a 700 series. 112 seems odd

[Tony]

I looked at my league score sheet from last year 60 something bowlers and of the guys with a 620 plus series most had 170 0r higher averages, the most exceptional was a guy who shot a 670 and had a 168 average

But a 112 avg shooting a 620 + seems really fishy

[jab5325]

Clear case of sandbagging.

A guy with a 170-175 average can go out and bowl 650, or get lucky and have a game in the 270s-300. If everything falls the right way, they might have a shot at 700 once per season.

There's no way someone with a 112 average pulls off a 600 series, unless the 112 average bowler was sandbagging. Someone with a 112 average might have a shot at a 200 game once per season.....not 3 in the same night.

[LyalC52]

pull him up on bowl.com and see what his average history is

[Tony]

pull him up on bowl.com and see what his average history is

Good idea, should be able to get a really good idea from those stats.

Lets just hope his name isn't bob smith or jim anderson !

[HowDoIHookAgain]

It's so obvious that this was sandbagging. I don't know how it can be anything else. One game that's 200+, that's reasonable. Two or three games above 200, for a guy like this, it's impossible if their skill level is really that low. If he wanted to sandbag, he should have at least had a 160 average so it seemed like he just had a good day.

Just for some simple math, a guy averaging 112 would have about a 336 3-game series. If he bowled over 200 every game, that's a 600+ series. For simplicity's sake, let's say he shot a 600 series. 600-336=264. And 264/3=88. I doubt very highly that he shot 264 pins over his series average and 88 pins over his single game average.

[Mike White]

There is a couple of possibilities that could make this not sandbagging.

If this was someone's first league, and to them it was just a dink around and get drunk league a 112 average using house ball wouldn't be unheard of.

What wasn't said was the time frame between when the league in question ended, and this tournament.

If for example it was a short league that started in September, the person may have had a 112 average in November, then decided they wanted to actually learn how to bowl.

With a properly fitting ball, and 5-6 months of practice, becoming a 175 actual bowler isn't unheard of.

Now by disqualify the person in their first competition, instead of having a bowler for life, they now want nothing to do with bowling.

No need to jump to conclusions with limited facts.

[vdubtx]

What wasn't said was the time frame between when the league in question ended, and this tournament.

If for example it was a short league that started in September, the person may have had a 112 average in November, then decided they wanted to actually learn how to bowl.

With a properly fitting ball, and 5-6 months of practice, becoming a 175 actual bowler isn't unheard of.

Now by disqualify the person in their first competition, instead of having a bowler for life, they now want nothing to do with bowling.

No need to jump to conclusions with limited facts.

Since the OP stated it was a summer league, it is likely the league began end of May or early June and ended at mid to end of August. Seems the summer leagues then had a tournament from the 4 AMF houses.

Your scenario could come in to play if they included Fall leagues into the tourney and not just the summer.

[Mike White]

Since the OP stated it was a summer league, it is likely the league began end of May or early June and ended at mid to end of August. Seems the summer leagues then had a tournament from the 4 AMF houses.

Your scenario could come in to play if they included Fall leagues into the tourney and not just the summer.

The OP said the summer league he was in just ended, but said nothing about the 112 bowler being in that league, or even in that center.

[Aslan]

Clear case of sandbagging.
Agreed.


A guy with a 170-175 average can go out and bowl 650, or get lucky and have a game in the 270s-300. If everything falls the right way, they might have a shot at 700 once per season.
I generally average 165-175 and in the harder of the two houses I can hit 600 1-3 times preseason. In the easier house where I average 190, I can usually get just over or just under 600 most nights.

I have a teammate that just rolled a 270s game despite him being a 170s average bowler. But his other two games were like a 186 and a 152. It's not that the 112 bowler bowled a 200+ game...that could happen. I've seed bowlers that average 90-120 go out and throw a 214 game. The problem with your situation is the person did it 3 times in a row. That is virtually unheard of. And very stupid on their part...because they made it FAR too obvious.


There's no way someone with a 112 average pulls off a 600 series, unless the 112 average bowler was sandbagging. Someone with a 112 average might have a shot at a 200 game once per season.....not 3 in the same night.
Think of it this way...on most league sheets...if you look at the leader in Handicap Game it's usually just over 300. Lets say 309. For a 112 average bowler at 90% of 220 that's a 223 game. High Handicap Series is usually just over 800...again, 90% of 220, this person would have to throw 3 181+ games. Is THAT possible....'maybe'. First night of sanctioned league play I shot a 180-182-184 or something like that. But I was starting with a 135 average and really was a low 160s bowler at that point. You're talking about a sub 130 average bowler...which means they have very little ability to pick up spares or hit the pocket regularly. I know, because I started out as a 121 average bowler...first league it went up to 135...then since then I've been in the 160-190 range. But I can tell you with 100% certainty that while I was a 135 average bowler...even practicing and learning as much as I did...I only cracked a 540 series 4 times in both leagues I played in. And of the 4 200+ games I shot...they were 224-213-237-213. So even if ME...as a 135 average bowler...if I managed to string the 3 highest scores together from 2 entire seasons...I'd have had a 224-213-237 = 674. And I gotta think even as a 135 average bowler...if I rattled off a 224-213-237 at sweeps...it would get disputed as well. Last year I averaged 164 and threw a 591 series at sweeps and the other team made some comment about sandbagging.

[go dart]

Quick update. Stopped after work to roll a little practice and checked in with the house manager. A real good guy. If what he's telling me it's just unbelievable. We should find out tomorrow but he stated it looks like he'll be reinstated. They can't find any history of a higher average. Now he also tells me
* the first ones to protest his scores were a team from their own league. Hmmmm
* the same team with the same bowler won last years first place in similar fashion.
* he bowled the minimum 21 league games, not the full season.
I'm getting this imfo 2nd hand but it is from the manager. Just crazy stuff. Thanks for the reply's!

[jab5325]

Quick update. Stopped after work to roll a little practice and checked in with the house manager. A real good guy. If what he's telling me it's just unbelievable. We should find out tomorrow but he stated it looks like he'll be reinstated. They can't find any history of a higher average. Now he also tells me
* the first ones to protest his scores were a team from their own league. Hmmmm
* the same team with the same bowler won last years first place in similar fashion.
* he bowled the minimum 21 league games, not the full season.
I'm getting this imfo 2nd hand but it is from the manager. Just crazy stuff. Thanks for the reply's!

Yeah.......that's sandbagging.

If that's true, it's inexcusable that the results will stand. I'd never bowl in that tournament again.

[Aslan]

Yeah.......that's sandbagging.

If that's true, it's inexcusable that the results will stand. I'd never bowl in that tournament again.

Agreed. I'd be OUT of that league/tournament and make it VERY clear to the center as to why.

It's one reason I'm very reluctant to bowl in ABTA tournaments locally. They have nice prize payouts, but are a bit expensive to enter. And both times I've participated...a person running the tournament won first place. Both times it was an Asian bowler...part of the group that runs things...and both times they were bowlers with rather modest averages (160-180s) that suddenly average 224 over 3 games. And every week in the bowling paper...pretty much the same people from the same group winning. Funny how all these successful tournament bowlers never seem to enter nor do well (when they do enter) in scratch tournaments.

And we'll see what happens at sweeps this weekend (I leave tonight for Vegas). I'm no longer in the Tuesday league...but if the same 2 people take sweeps for a 3rd straight season...I definitely won't feel as bad about my decision to leave.

[Tony]

Quick update. Stopped after work to roll a little practice and checked in with the house manager. A real good guy. If what he's telling me it's just unbelievable. We should find out tomorrow but he stated it looks like he'll be reinstated. They can't find any history of a higher average. Now he also tells me
* the first ones to protest his scores were a team from their own league. Hmmmm
* the same team with the same bowler won last years first place in similar fashion.
* he bowled the minimum 21 league games, not the full season.
I'm getting this imfo 2nd hand but it is from the manager. Just crazy stuff. Thanks for the reply's!

Seems like a setup, there are not that many guys that can reel off 3 200 games and not bowl or have bowled on a regular basis. Maybe he is from a nearby city and they are not finding anything because he falsified the info when he filled out a new sanction card for that league and he does bowl under another name in another location.
I wonder if they verified his id for the tournament or have since the controversy to see if his id matches the sanction card.

[fordman1]

Where was his avg. checked? Was it on bowl.com? Did you know that you can hide your name on that site? Only usbc officials have access to bowlers who request privacy. How dumb is that? Just about as dumb as using a summer league only avg. for a tournament.

[Blacksox1]

This is a load of shenanigans. But what a deal, bowl 7 weeks, do a tournament, profit 8000$ for team, 2000 for self.