Too much up the back of the ball?

[Amyers]

I was recently talking with my PSO when he told me I'm too much up the back of the ball and I need to come around the ball more. What does this mean? It's not the first time I've heard this in regard to my release. If I'm up the back of the ball I have to be underneath and behind the ball so my hand is in the right spot but apparently their is something I'm missing here. If any of you coaches out there can explain the difference in motion I would love to hear it.

[bowl1820]

Rob and others may have a differing view.

When you coming up the back of the ball,It's more of a flat handed, behind the ball release. Your putting more forward roll on it and not much side turn on it.

It's like, imagine having a can of soup in your hand and you roll it off your hand straight down the lane. Your behind the can and coming up the back up it.

[RobLV1]

I was recently talking with my PSO when he told me I'm too much up the back of the ball and I need to come around the ball more. What does this mean? It's not the first time I've heard this in regard to my release. If I'm up the back of the ball I have to be underneath and behind the ball so my hand is in the right spot but apparently their is something I'm missing here. If any of you coaches out there can explain the difference in motion I would love to hear it.

You are right in that your hand is in the right spot to start your release. What you are not doing is turning your hand through the ball during your release, most probably due to timing issues. My latest article, posted on BTM is entitled, "Working the Inside of the Ball." You might want to give it a look as I believe that it gives a pretty good explanation of the modern release, and what you need to do to get there... if you are willing to put in the effort.

[Aslan]

The best way I can describe the difference is if you're properly coming THROUGH the ball...you'll feel your thumb come out and the ball coming off your fingertips. The angle of your hand/fingertips determines how much axis rotation you'll have. If you come THROUGH the ball with your hand/fingers straight...= 0 axis rotation...the ball will essentially go straight. Many people throw a strike ball at corner pins by "flattening their release" in this way.

And that is what confused me for almost 2 years....I was coming up the back of the ball...but when I did there was very little axis rotation. My hand was just setting the ball down and my fingers came up the back and it rolled mostly straight.

Once I switched to 15lbs, I was able to better get under the ball and flip my hand THROUGH the ball and then I felt the ball coming off my fingertips...and "SHAZAM"...suddenly all the "through the ball" stuff made sense.

I don't know why the PSO would want you to come more up the side. But I'll have to look at Rob's article. I'm still getting caught up with the archived stuff.

[Amyers]

The best way I can describe the difference is if you're properly coming THROUGH the ball...you'll feel your thumb come out and the ball coming off your fingertips. The angle of your hand/fingertips determines how much axis rotation you'll have. If you come THROUGH the ball with your hand/fingers straight...= 0 axis rotation...the ball will essentially go straight. Many people throw a strike ball at corner pins by "flattening their release" in this way.

And that is what confused me for almost 2 years....I was coming up the back of the ball...but when I did there was very little axis rotation. My hand was just setting the ball down and my fingers came up the back and it rolled mostly straight.

Once I switched to 15lbs, I was able to better get under the ball and flip my hand THROUGH the ball and then I felt the ball coming off my fingertips...and "SHAZAM"...suddenly all the "through the ball" stuff made sense.

I don't know why the PSO would want you to come more up the side. But I'll have to look at Rob's article. I'm still getting caught up with the archived stuff.

My ball does hook often too much or better said to early. I got the feeling from the conversation that he thinks that why a lot of balls tend to hook early for me. I'm going to have to go back and talk to him about exactly what he meant. He was talking with one of the local PBA 50 guys about my ball and I didn't want to interrupt with my usual 10,000 questions. Guess I'm going to need to break down and get the BTM subscription been meaning to just never seem to get around to it.

[Tony]

Besides getting behind the ball and then rotating your hand / fingers around the side as you release the thumb, there is also the older method we call the suitcase or handshake where you hold the ball with the thumb at about 10 o'clock and keep it there through the swing and release, the ball falls off your thumb and you get some reasonable rotation on the ball.
This would be used by a stroker type bowler and we have many guys in the leagues around here using it and averaging over 200

Not sure but it's possible you pso could be talking about this.

[Aslan]

This would be used by a stroker type bowler and we have many guys in the leagues around here using it and averaging over 200

Wait. I used to do that and didn't average NEAR 200. Dammit. :mad:

I keep hearing about everyone averaging near 200 after bowling for like 2 months or bowling with a 70s style release or bowling backwards and it's like..WTH MAN!!! I'm working my BEHIND off just trying to get to 193 for crying out loud. I'm starting to think bowling is like racquetball...I never could quite figure out racquetball. Everyone else seemed to get it...but it never made sense to me. You hit this tiny rubber ball at what seemed to be the speed of light...and then it bounces around the room and you have to try and hit...I'm assuming before it kills someone...but I have no idea. Maybe bowling just "ain't my game". Like basketball...I'm tall...but I suck at basketball. I went to a basketball CAMP once...that just cemented my feeling that I really sucked at basketball.

Then...on the other hand...my first lesson with Mark Baker...the first video he shot and analyzed...almost textbook. A "slight" variation from perfect based on where the ball was in the swing as my head moved past my knee. Granted, videos 2 and 3....didn't look so great. But the point is...there's gold in that there mine...we're just not sure if we can get to it.

[Amyers]

Wait. I used to do that and didn't average NEAR 200. Dammit. :mad:

I keep hearing about everyone averaging near 200 after bowling for like 2 months or bowling with a 70s style release or bowling backwards and it's like..WTH MAN!!! I'm working my BEHIND off just trying to get to 193 for crying out loud. I'm starting to think bowling is like racquetball...I never could quite figure out racquetball. Everyone else seemed to get it...but it never made sense to me. You hit this tiny rubber ball at what seemed to be the speed of light...and then it bounces around the room and you have to try and hit...I'm assuming before it kills someone...but I have no idea. Maybe bowling just "ain't my game". Like basketball...I'm tall...but I suck at basketball. I went to a basketball CAMP once...that just cemented my feeling that I really sucked at basketball.

Then...on the other hand...my first lesson with Mark Baker...the first video he shot and analyzed...almost textbook. A "slight" variation from perfect based on where the ball was in the swing as my head moved past my knee. Granted, videos 2 and 3....didn't look so great. But the point is...there's gold in that there mine...we're just not sure if we can get to it.

I know that feeling. Truthfully I've never worked much on my release because I don't seem to understand more than the basic mechanics behind it. I still release the ball the same way I did back in my YABA (just with less wrist cup cause I'm old now and can't do that crap anymore) days. I've averaged over and around 200 before with my current release but I'm trying to improve so I guess I'm going to have to figure it out. I think going suitcase style would be a step backwards from where I'm at out now. The problem I've got is not that I can't hook the ball it's the way I hook the ball that needs to improve.

[Tony]

Asian, how about this guy for a bowling coach ? I can try and track him down, he sometimes comes down after our wed night league to practice!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex5iwpBHhdw


He set a world record bowling backwards / 280

[Tony]

I know that feeling. Truthfully I've never worked much on my release because I don't seem to understand more than the basic mechanics behind it. I still release the ball the same way I did back in my YABA (just with less wrist cup cause I'm old now and can't do that crap anymore) days. I've averaged over and around 200 before with my current release but I'm trying to improve so I guess I'm going to have to figure it out. I think going suitcase style would be a step backwards from where I'm at out now. The problem I've got is not that I can't hook the ball it's the way I hook the ball that needs to improve.

I'm certainly no expert but the behind the ball and suitcase appear to just be a couple of different ways to get a low axis tilt release providing a moderate amount of hook, certainly personal preference should also play a role in what you use. The best one to use is probably the one you can consistently repeat shot after shot. The suitcase can be adjusted somewhat by turning your hand/ thumb between say 9 o'clock and 11 o'clock for the desired amount of hook required, just as you can rotate your fingers slightly less of more with a more behind the ball release.

[Jessiewoodard57]

did not realize there was an online magazine going to have to look into that. I work in a print shop so I can always print some articles out for Men's library reading

[fokai73]

Honestly, there's nothing wrong to being an end over end roller. Look how many titles WRW has one with playing mostly straight, end over end roll.

Right now, because of the pattern/volume you're bowling on, being end over end maybe be suffice for you. But, when lanes break down or are drier, having a low tilt and rotation can give you issues getting down the lane since your ball is already standing up. Plus, today's bowling ball hook too much already. Companies are making stronger and stronger balls, but lanes and oil don't change that quick. Then you have bowlers who want more revs....

Anyway, it is good idea too to learn to change your axis rotation, add more side roll to your game. Even increasing tilt (spinner) too helps widen your game especially when lanes are dry. You're prolly like WRW at release, what these folks are telling you is be like PDW. That's a good thing.

[billf]

So let's see, I would say you track close to the finger and thumb holes with very little axis rotation. With low tilt and low axis the ball will read the pattern faster. Given that you °said you no longer cup your wrist like you use to (due to age) your rev rate is also lower.
Rev rate= allows for push past the pattern
So with teh same release when younger the increased revs allowed the ball to go further before reading the pattern. Now you need to increase tilt or axis rotation to combat this loss of rev rate. Simple enough.

Instead of releasing with your thumb at 12 and 6 being between the finger holes, as the thumb exits the ball rotateyour hand counter-clockwise to 4:30. This will give you a 45° axis rotation. Once you have this conquered expect to cover more boards.
https://youtu.be/m4NMuITGuGY

[Amyers]

So let's see, I would say you track close to the finger and thumb holes with very little axis rotation. With low tilt and low axis the ball will read the pattern faster. Given that you °said you no longer cup your wrist like you use to (due to age) your rev rate is also lower.
Rev rate= allows for push past the pattern
So with teh same release when younger the increased revs allowed the ball to go further before reading the pattern. Now you need to increase tilt or axis rotation to combat this loss of rev rate. Simple enough.

Instead of releasing with your thumb at 12 and 6 being between the finger holes, as the thumb exits the ball rotateyour hand counter-clockwise to 4:30. This will give you a 45° axis rotation. Once you have this conquered expect to cover more boards.
https://youtu.be/m4NMuITGuGY

Actually this is part of what I don't understand I track nowhere near my finger or thumbholes. I'm closer to a spinner than a full roller by far. I do still have some cup just not the extreme amount I had when younger.

[Mike White]

Actually this is part of what I don't understand I track nowhere near my finger or thumbholes. I'm closer to a spinner than a full roller by far. I do still have some cup just not the extreme amount I had when younger.

According to you: closer to a spinner than a full roller by far.

According to your PSO: too much up the back of the ball and need to come around the ball more.

One of these two are hallucinating.

Do you have any recent video?

[Aslan]

Asian, how about this guy for a bowling coach ? He set a world record bowling backwards / 280

There is SO much wrong with that guy's release/approach/everything....that the video kinda frightens me.

[RobLV1]

According to you: closer to a spinner than a full roller by far.

According to your PSO: too much up the back of the ball and need to come around the ball more.

One of these two are hallucinating.

Do you have any recent video?

One of the rare times that Mike and I agree. Someone is smoking funny cigarettes!

[Amyers]

One of the rare times that Mike and I agree. Someone is smoking funny cigarettes!

No I don't but I might be able to take some tomorrow. I am sure my track is more than 2 inches from the holes though.

[RobLV1]

No I don't but I might be able to take some tomorrow. I am sure my track is more than 2 inches from the holes though.

If your track is more than 2" from the holes, there is no way that you are "too much up the back of the ball." I'm sure that your PSO has the best of intentions, but I think that you need to get some input from a qualified coach (not just a good bowler). You can always post a video of yourself here, or email one to me at robbob5@embarqmail.com, and I'll be glad to take a look. The video should be shot from directly behind you.

[billf]

According to you: closer to a spinner than a full roller by far.

According to your PSO: too much up the back of the ball and need to come around the ball more.

One of these two are hallucinating.

Do you have any recent video?


One of the rare times that Mike and I agree. Someone is smoking funny cigarettes!


Hell must have froze over becasue we are three for three on this. Bonus, you both posted something funny

[Amyers]

http://youtu.be/-jcasCEVZps

We you guys asked for it try not to poke your eyes out or anything. Honestly it's a work in progress but I do think it shows progress since the last videos I uploaded.

[fortheloveofbowling]

From what i could see from pausing it, you are behind the ball when it is at your slide leg. Then you rotate around but not over the top. Looks like a fairly good release to me. You are losing leverage from not using your legs enough. Overall a pretty nice game. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Blacksox1]

I liked the long black pants and the stylish shirt.
FTLOB is correct about the leg leverage.
Your 5 step approach is better than your old 4 step.

[Mike White]

http://youtu.be/-jcasCEVZps

We you guys asked for it try not to poke your eyes out or anything. Honestly it's a work in progress but I do think it shows progress since the last videos I uploaded.

Looks like you have enough axis of rotation to not be considered "Too much up the back", but that doesn't mean you are throwing it exactly the same as what the PSO was commenting about.

It also does not look like a spinner release.

In general the approach looks too stiff.

While you take 5 steps, you're starting the ball late making it mechanically more like a 3 step approach.

That makes you limit the back swing.

The lack of knee bend and shoulder rotation makes you use upper body muscles to get the ball moving forward.

[RobLV1]

Good comments all. The only thing that I will add is that while timing is difficult to see from the rear view, it appears that you are being inconsistent from one shot to the next. The first two shots pictured timing that seems to be earlier than the timing in the third shot, and the results would seem to bear that out. Your release seems to be very consistent from shot to shot, and like many traditional releases, it depends on timing that is slightly later to provide added leverage.

[Amyers]

Looks like you have enough axis of rotation to not be considered "Too much up the back", but that doesn't mean you are throwing it exactly the same as what the PSO was commenting about.

It also does not look like a spinner release.

In general the approach looks too stiff.

While you take 5 steps, you're starting the ball late making it mechanically more like a 3 step approach.

That makes you limit the back swing.

The lack of knee bend and shoulder rotation makes you use upper body muscles to get the ball moving forward.

My comment on the spinner was simply that I was closer to a spinner than a full roller not that I actually was a spinner.

[Amyers]

Good comments all. The only thing that I will add is that while timing is difficult to see from the rear view, it appears that you are being inconsistent from one shot to the next. The first two shots pictured timing that seems to be earlier than the timing in the third shot, and the results would seem to bear that out. Your release seems to be very consistent from shot to shot, and like many traditional releases, it depends on timing that is slightly later to provide added leverage.

You are correct on that third shot. I seem to have an issue with getting a couple of those a game where I'm falling off to the right but it is an improvement from where it used to be on every shot. I try to make sure I am getting the ball moving as soon as that first step hits the floor but I either start late or speed the feet up sometimes that throws it off.

Thanks for looking it is good to hear that I don't have additional release issues that I didn't think that I had at least. I do agree with everyone that the approach is too stiff and that I lack leg involvement but I'm not sure what to do about that so any suggestions would be appreciated.

Unfortunately their isn't much access to coaching here. Their are a few former PBA guys who will give some advice such as the PSO I work with some. We have a couple of WPBA women who are in town occasionally who will give some advice and their is a Senior PBA guy who comes up once a week that does some lessons but as far as certified coaches it's about a 3 hour drive. The only time that's an option is on the weekends and then my kids bowl their leagues on Saturdays so it's pretty much a no go until summer.

[billf]

http://youtu.be/-jcasCEVZps

We you guys asked for it try not to poke your eyes out or anything. Honestly it's a work in progress but I do think it shows progress since the last videos I uploaded.


Much better than you had me anticipating. The release is fine. Definitely not too much behind the ball. In all fairness to your PSO we had video to see in slo-mo, pause, etc. Things are much harder to catch in real time, up close. Keep working on your footwork and timing and the rest will get better with it.

[RobLV1]

You are correct on that third shot. I seem to have an issue with getting a couple of those a game where I'm falling off to the right but it is an improvement from where it used to be on every shot. I try to make sure I am getting the ball moving as soon as that first step hits the floor but I either start late or speed the feet up sometimes that throws it off.
.

Interesting comment. It occurs to me that the two shots where your timing was good resulted in light hits, while the third shot with the late timing resulted in a strike. Could it be that you are lining up for your bad shots rather than the good ones? If that's the case, it's almost like subconsciously rewarding yourself for throwing a bad shot. Just something to consider.

[Amyers]

Interesting comment. It occurs to me that the two shots where your timing was good resulted in light hits, while the third shot with the late timing resulted in a strike. Could it be that you are lining up for your bad shots rather than the good ones? If that's the case, it's almost like subconsciously rewarding yourself for throwing a bad shot. Just something to consider.

Anything is possible I guess. I've worked on making adjustments when I think I need too and living with the consequences when I'm wrong and it was just a bad shot. Again better than the alternative. I felt like the three I taped were the 3 out of the 4 bad shots I made over the 2 games. It gets in my head when I'm waiting for someone to video the shot. I need to invest in a camera and tripod so it's not a hassle to do. Can't say I felt like any of the three were me at my best.