Two Important Questions

[Aslan]

1) How do you know where to start?
2) How do you adjust for misses right of the headpin (for righties)?

Explanation:

1) Everyone needs a place to start with their feet and target. Everyone has strategies (usually moving left with feet and target) for transitioning as the lanes break down...but how do you know where to START. Because with limited practice time...on two lanes...you don't have much time to find that perfect line...and the more you practice, the more you could risk changing it. So where do you START?

2) When we miss left, we often have a strategy on how to move as the lanes transition (as I stated above)...but what about misses right?

Logic would say that if you "miss right, you move right". That's common bowling logic. But there are other strategies as well. Here is just a list of all the possible things I've tried when missing right of the headpin:

A. Move 1 board right with your feet if you hit the headpin but leave something like the 2-4-5. If the headpin is still standing; move 2 boards right with your feet and move the target one board to the right.
B. Set the ball down earlier (dots versus arrows for example) to give the ball more time to react with the lanes.
C. Slow down the shot (speed adjustment).
D. Loft the ball to get more revs on the shot or add more hand to the shot.
E. Switch to a more aggressive ball.
F. Play a different line.
G. Move left a half a board and your target right a half a board...try to get the ball out in the dry more.

Now...all these strategies I've used at one point or another. And all have their positives and negatives. Just as an example; here are the corresponding negatives to each philosophy:

A. If you move right in this manner...you eventually reach a point where the shot is straight or sometimes it feels at least that your target is causing you to swing across your body. Another way of saying it is...you stop playing the breakpoint...and start playing the oil line.
B. The earlier you set the ball down, the more "off target" the shot will eventually be (think of a pistol versus a rifle).
C. Trying to mess with speed for an average bowler (or below average in my case) is usually a timing nightmare.
D. Generally lofting is discouraged unless you're Mika Koivuniemi.
E. I generally START with my most aggressive ball so I'd have to go back to my old system of starting with my medium ball and then have room to go up or down.
F. I used to have multiple lines...but to try 1 ball on 3 lines in practice or 2 balls on 2-3 lines in practice...there just isn't enough time.
G. Strategy tends to work on easier house (THS) shots but if the conditions are more oily/slick/heavy/wide/etc...all you'll do is miss MORE to the right. Not to mention not every ball is designed to go to a breakpoint and snap. If you're playing a smooth arc...this doesn't help as much. Also not as effective for lower rev players (in general).

My strategy has evolved over time...but the biggest problems with ANY miss...right, left, center, or otherwise...is you never know exactly what caused it. Too much hand? Not enough hand? Too much speed? Not enough speed? Timing issues? Balance issues? Etc... So then you have to decide, "Did I make a good enough shot (and miss) that I think I need to move laterally?" And that's a really hard thing for lower level players to accurately answer.

As for me, I generally use options A or to a lesser extent G. I started using G (left a half board with feet, right a half board with target) because I was feeling like as I adjust right...my line was getting too 'tight'. No miss room, no room for error, riding the oil line. And I found that if I could get the ball out more in the dry...and start just a little more inside...at least with the hybrid cover ball...that seemed to work better than "out-and-in" or fine-tuning the oil line shot. But this was in a large part only possible when I decreased my ball weight to 15lbs and started getting more rpms and axis tilt. And once you rely on that "hand" in your shot...you'll washout if you take anything off of it (accidentally).

As a low rev/higher speed bowler...I used to be most comfortable out between the 1st and 2nd arrow. But as I've developed more revs...playing out and in like that hasn't been as possible because the solid and hybrid covers grab too early out there...too dry...too dirty. I'm now most comfortable around 2nd arrow. I've tried moving as far in as 13-17 at the arrows...but usually IF I DO have success inside...it's very short lived...because all it takes is a slight lateral move further inside and suddenly I'm washing out right.

:mad: frustrating :mad:

[Amyers]

As usual you are making everything way to complicated. First off I'm never even considering B,C, or D ever at the start. I tend to play somewhere between 10-15 on house shots. I start on 12. If I miss right I'm Going 3 and 2 to the right, If left I'm going 3 and 2 to the left. I usually start with the Hammer Arson Low Flare If I don't like the look after making the move I'll get the Virtual Gravity out. I may make smaller moves through out the night but my initial moves are big to cover space. I do start with the Virtual Gravity at one of my synthetic houses that tends to have more oil.

As a rule I don't switch balls to hit the pocket only when I don't like the way the ball is hitting the pocket or looks rolling down the lane. Occasionally If I'm having a really good night I will add a little loft to try and get the ball down the lane a little farther before changing lines or balls sometimes buys me an extra couple of balls on the line but I'm sure no starting out that way.

[Aslan]

So Amyers...what I'm seeing in your response is if you hit right of the headpin in practice you are going 3:2 (feet:target) right.

That makes sense.

Lets say you make that move and start hitting pocket flush on both lanes and practice time is over.

First frame (left lane); flush strike.
Second frame; through the head (but a bad release)
Third frame; through the head (good shot as far as you know)
Fourth frame; you hit pocket but leave a flat 7-pin.

So, at this point, you've made two good shots on the left lane and the first struck but the 2nd was through the head. So, given it was a solid shot (hit your mark, nothing out of the ordinary)...you make a 2:1 move on the left lane. On the right lane, your first shot was off...but your second shot hit light leaving a flat 7-pin. So do you move right slightly on the right lane? Do you just throw the same shot and assume it'll hit flush the next time? I'm sure you don't want to switch balls after only 4 frames, right?

Lets assume you make the 2:1 on the left lane but stay with the same line on the right lane.
Fifth frame you make a good shot but put a little more hand into it and strike Brooklyn.
Sixth frame you make another good shot and leave a flat 10-pin.

Do you adjust on the left lane? Or do you just chalk that up to "too much hand"? What about the right lane? Two straight frames with pocket hits and light carry?

Lets assume you keep things the same on the left lane and hit pocket in the seventh frame, strike...but you notice the ball exits more on the 7-pin side (indicating you might want to make another move left).
Eighth frame, you do what? Two pocket hits that didn't carry...no release or speed or balance issues that you can notice. Do you move right? Stay where you are? Switch balls? Lets assume you move 1 board right...just for the sake of the example. Result; through the head...but you're not sure if it's the line or if it was that you grabbed it just a little too much at the bottom of the swing.

At this point you're in the 9th frame, you've struck 3 times (1 Brooklyn), you left two corner pins and picked up one of them, and you've had 3 splits that were open. You can now strike out for a 170. : ( And whats WORSE is...you have very little confidence that you're playing the right line, making good shots, or making proper adjustments.

So you make another 2:1 move in the 9th and strike perfectly.
In the 10th you make a 2:1 left (which actually is a 1:1 from where you started before you moved a board right) and you hit light (again) and leave a 4-7. You convert and throw the same shot...pocket, hit light again...leave a flat 10.

See...you just shot a 149...and even though you really only made 2-3 "bad" shots...and even those shots were still "okay" and one of em struck Brooklyn.

I know I'm merely guessing at what you would do after each shot and feel free to correct as needed...I'm just trying to get an idea of what other people do in the situation I've layed out above. I bet some people wouldn't have moved at all. They were around the pocket and they'd just keep doing what they're doing. I bet other people would have made a ball change almost immediately.

What I find frustrating about the above scenario is...you've just wasted one entire game...you've put your team down 0-1...yet despite hitting your mark and "feeling" good...you are NO CLOSER to even remotely understanding what in the **** is going on as you were at the start of the game. You started out hitting right of the headpin in practice...you're now about 4:2 left from there (which is only 1 board left with your feet from where you started in practice...targeting the same spot you were targeting in practice)...and now you're hitting light again.

There's a ton of info about moving left as lanes break down...but you don't see as much info about what to do when you miss right...especially if you were hitting pocket and suddenly aren't. I'm guessing most experts will say the reason for that is...IF you're hitting pocket...you shouldn't ever all of the sudden start hitting light with today's technology resin bowling balls. In other words, if you hit right after hitting pocket...your timing or speed or release is probably off. But that's a dangerous game to play...if you're hitting pocket and then have 2, 3, 4 frames of hitting light and doing nothing about it.

I need a nap.

[RobLV1]

1) How do you know where to start?
2) How do you adjust for misses right of the headpin (for righties)?


1) If you are bowling on a typical house shot, simply notice where other bowlers are your pair are playing (usually the second arrow), and play just to the left of them, allowing them to open your miss room to the right.

2. The most important thing to do when you miss to the right is to understand that, if you started playing a line that worked initially, these misses are caused by the ball burning up. This happened to me today. I had a good shot to the pocket using an aggressive bowling ball when, all of a sudden, a threw a good shot that left a seven pin with a late fall on the five. The next bowler was not so fortunate and left a five-seven split. I immediately balled down AND moved left, while he kept thinking that it was something in his release, or his speed, or the phase of the moon, or whatever. As we have discussed before, on a typical house shot where the outsided part of the lane starts out being dry and only gets drier, why would you possibly ever move right?

[Amyers]

So Amyers...what I'm seeing in your response is if you hit right of the headpin in practice you are going 3:2 (feet:target) right.

That makes sense.

Lets say you make that move and start hitting pocket flush on both lanes and practice time is over.

First frame (left lane); flush strike.
Second frame; through the head (but a bad release)
Third frame; through the head (good shot as far as you know)
Fourth frame; you hit pocket but leave a flat 7-pin.

So, at this point, you've made two good shots on the left lane and the first struck but the 2nd was through the head. So, given it was a solid shot (hit your mark, nothing out of the ordinary)...you make a 2:1 move on the left lane. On the right lane, your first shot was off...but your second shot hit light leaving a flat 7-pin. So do you move right slightly on the right lane? Do you just throw the same shot and assume it'll hit flush the next time? I'm sure you don't want to switch balls after only 4 frames, right?

Lets assume you make the 2:1 on the left lane but stay with the same line on the right lane.
Fifth frame you make a good shot but put a little more hand into it and strike Brooklyn.
Sixth frame you make another good shot and leave a flat 10-pin.

Do you adjust on the left lane? Or do you just chalk that up to "too much hand"? What about the right lane? Two straight frames with pocket hits and light carry?

Lets assume you keep things the same on the left lane and hit pocket in the seventh frame, strike...but you notice the ball exits more on the 7-pin side (indicating you might want to make another move left).
Eighth frame, you do what? Two pocket hits that didn't carry...no release or speed or balance issues that you can notice. Do you move right? Stay where you are? Switch balls? Lets assume you move 1 board right...just for the sake of the example. Result; through the head...but you're not sure if it's the line or if it was that you grabbed it just a little too much at the bottom of the swing.

At this point you're in the 9th frame, you've struck 3 times (1 Brooklyn), you left two corner pins and picked up one of them, and you've had 3 splits that were open. You can now strike out for a 170. : ( And whats WORSE is...you have very little confidence that you're playing the right line, making good shots, or making proper adjustments.

So you make another 2:1 move in the 9th and strike perfectly.
In the 10th you make a 2:1 left (which actually is a 1:1 from where you started before you moved a board right) and you hit light (again) and leave a 4-7. You convert and throw the same shot...pocket, hit light again...leave a flat 10.

See...you just shot a 149...and even though you really only made 2-3 "bad" shots...and even those shots were still "okay" and one of em struck Brooklyn.

I know I'm merely guessing at what you would do after each shot and feel free to correct as needed...I'm just trying to get an idea of what other people do in the situation I've layed out above. I bet some people wouldn't have moved at all. They were around the pocket and they'd just keep doing what they're doing. I bet other people would have made a ball change almost immediately.

What I find frustrating about the above scenario is...you've just wasted one entire game...you've put your team down 0-1...yet despite hitting your mark and "feeling" good...you are NO CLOSER to even remotely understanding what in the **** is going on as you were at the start of the game. You started out hitting right of the headpin in practice...you're now about 4:2 left from there (which is only 1 board left with your feet from where you started in practice...targeting the same spot you were targeting in practice)...and now you're hitting light again.

There's a ton of info about moving left as lanes break down...but you don't see as much info about what to do when you miss right...especially if you were hitting pocket and suddenly aren't. I'm guessing most experts will say the reason for that is...IF you're hitting pocket...you shouldn't ever all of the sudden start hitting light with today's technology resin bowling balls. In other words, if you hit right after hitting pocket...your timing or speed or release is probably off. But that's a dangerous game to play...if you're hitting pocket and then have 2, 3, 4 frames of hitting light and doing nothing about it.

I need a nap.

Lol we really need to get you on some Prozac or maybe Lithium. Ok let's see we star off flush the go through the nose on a good shot. Yes I'm moving left at that point. In the case of a flat 7 and the lanes have transititioned quickly enough that I'm already moving left by the fourth from i will stay there and wait for the shot to come to me if they are changing that fast it won't be long. I don't move right really period unless I've made a huge jump like a 5 and 3 or if I'm changing balls and most likely not then.

I'm not a big fan of moving right once I've got the pocket lined up and if I do it's only with the feet to "tighten the line up" and keep the ball in the oil a little longer. I rarley ever move move my target right once the pocket is found.

[Amyers]

One big advantage of learning to play farther inside is you don't have to move as much. On a typical mixed four person league I end up moving maybe 3 to 5 boards with my feet and a couple of boards with my target all night if I can start with the virtual gravity often I can throw a set and and move once I just ball down to the Arson and that is it. Most teams only have one other person playing where I play so it equals not as much movement plus there is more oil inside too so it last longer

Now on my travel league where it's all men and a lot of them play more inside and they are using high end equipment I have to adjust more but regular league not so much. You start off on boards that are already dry it doesn't take long to burn off the little bit that's out there

[jab5325]

I really find that thinking less leads to better scores.

Pick a spot. If that doesn't work, adjust. Having a consistent routine/release is 75% of the battle, and knowing how to adjust is the other 25%. Don't overthink it.

[Tony]

Lol we really need to get you on some Prozac or maybe Lithium.

Yes, in this case drugs are the answer ! It seems like you're doing way too much thinking ! In my game at least over thinking every little thing is counter productive. Unless you know that your approach and delivery were / are exactly the same from shot to shot why make changes with every shot, you just end up confused.
I've done that before and in reading the long list of what if's ( as long as I could read before my head started hurting) that's what it appears you've been doing.


Typically in practice I will start out on 20 and throwing over 2nd arrow and then based on a couple of throws move slightly and throw a couple more balls. I find that I play from 15 to 25 and throw from 1st arrow to 3rd arrow. The adjustments are pretty much moving a board or 2 with my feet or adjusting the target a board at a time.

Maybe I equate it more to baseball, having played that for so many years but I don't recall ever doing or seeing other players adjust to the degree that people do in bowling.
I can't imagine making a weak hit or striking out and going up the next at bat, adjusting where I stand in the box, chocking up more or less on the bat and changing to a different bat , batting glove and helmet .....seems insane !

[NewToBowling]

Yeah you're talking about half boards left and/or right. Does that really matter seeing as people tend to miss on average 2-3 boards off their target anyways. Is your lay down point exactly the same along with your release and angle and axis that the 1/2 board makes a difference?

[vdubtx]

Don't overthink it.

Unfortunately with the OP, this falls on deaf ears.

My motto in bowling and making adjustments is K.I.S.S.(Keep It Simple Stupid).

Miss left, move left. Miss right, move right. That is assuming you made a good shot that necessitated a move and that you hit where you wanted to down the lane. That is hard for some people to know whether your shot was good or not.

At the level that any of us on this forum bowls, making axis, rotation or any advanced adjustments to a delivery just further complicates the game with skill that we just don't possess.
Find your one good release and get consistent with it. Once you have mastered that, then you can MAYBE incorporate other releases and hand positions.

My measly $.02

[Tony]

Unfortunately with the OP, this falls on deaf ears.

My motto in bowling and making adjustments is K.I.S.S.(Keep It Simple Stupid).

Miss left, move left. Miss right, move right. That is assuming you made a good shot that necessitated a move and that you hit where you wanted to down the lane. That is hard for some people to know whether your shot was good or not.

At the level that any of us on this forum bowls, making axis, rotation or any advanced adjustments to a delivery just further complicates the game with skill that we just don't possess.
Find your one good release and get consistent with it. Once you have mastered that, then you can MAYBE incorporate other releases and hand positions.

My measly $.02

The key as you point out is having a consistent release. I find this is probably the number one issue keeping lots of bowlers I bowl with including me from getting to the 200 + average goal.

[billf]

Yeah you're talking about half boards left and/or right. Does that really matter seeing as people tend to miss on average 2-3 boards off their target anyways. Is your lay down point exactly the same along with your release and angle and axis that the 1/2 board makes a difference?

We have a winner!!!! A pro adjustment of 1/2 a board would never apply to a novice.

Another thing, you bowl at two centers regularly, correct? I use to do the same thing, find a line. Then after a conversation with Rob once I kind of went, duh it's the same general area so why am I burning up my own line? It's warm up, not practice. So now I use my opponents preferred line. I'm stiff and everything hurts the first four or five throws anyway so what good is it doing (line wise)?

My main center is wood so my adjustments are bigger. If I start left of everyone in my scratch league I'm out of room before the first game ends. So I start way outside, straight up 3. If I miss right it will go in the gutter. Same if I come around the ball as there is no left to right room so I keep my axis rotation under 45°. That area is only good for one game tops.
Now when I have to move I will jump left of the field, increase my speed as needed and increase my axis rotation. Some nights are like last night where I can't keep the speed high enough to overcome the lanes dying out. Then I move about 7 right with my feet and change my release once again. By now this area is real dry so I use tilt to help get the ball down lane before it reacts to the friction.

My preference would be to play around 8 and keep piping it in with hand at 20+mph but I'm getting too old and worn out for that.

[Tony]

So Amyers...what I'm seeing in your response is if you hit right of the headpin in practice you are going 3:2 (feet:target) right.

That makes sense.

Lets say you make that move and start hitting pocket flush on both lanes and practice time is over.

First frame (left lane); flush strike.
Second frame; through the head (but a bad release)
Third frame; through the head (good shot as far as you know)
Fourth frame; you hit pocket but leave a flat 7-pin.

So, at this point, you've made two good shots on the left lane and the first struck but the 2nd was through the head. So, given it was a solid shot (hit your mark, nothing out of the ordinary)...you make a 2:1 move on the left lane. On the right lane, your first shot was off...but your second shot hit light leaving a flat 7-pin. So do you move right slightly on the right lane? Do you just throw the same shot and assume it'll hit flush the next time? I'm sure you don't want to switch balls after only 4 frames, right?

Lets assume you make the 2:1 on the left lane but stay with the same line on the right lane.
Fifth frame you make a good shot but put a little more hand into it and strike Brooklyn.
Sixth frame you make another good shot and leave a flat 10-pin.

Do you adjust on the left lane? Or do you just chalk that up to "too much hand"? What about the right lane? Two straight frames with pocket hits and light carry?

Lets assume you keep things the same on the left lane and hit pocket in the seventh frame, strike...but you notice the ball exits more on the 7-pin side (indicating you might want to make another move left).
Eighth frame, you do what? Two pocket hits that didn't carry...no release or speed or balance issues that you can notice. Do you move right? Stay where you are? Switch balls? Lets assume you move 1 board right...just for the sake of the example. Result; through the head...but you're not sure if it's the line or if it was that you grabbed it just a little too much at the bottom of the swing.

At this point you're in the 9th frame, you've struck 3 times (1 Brooklyn), you left two corner pins and picked up one of them, and you've had 3 splits that were open. You can now strike out for a 170. : ( And whats WORSE is...you have very little confidence that you're playing the right line, making good shots, or making proper adjustments.

So you make another 2:1 move in the 9th and strike perfectly.
In the 10th you make a 2:1 left (which actually is a 1:1 from where you started before you moved a board right) and you hit light (again) and leave a 4-7. You convert and throw the same shot...pocket, hit light again...leave a flat 10.

See...you just shot a 149...and even though you really only made 2-3 "bad" shots...and even those shots were still "okay" and one of em struck Brooklyn.

I know I'm merely guessing at what you would do after each shot and feel free to correct as needed...I'm just trying to get an idea of what other people do in the situation I've layed out above. I bet some people wouldn't have moved at all. They were around the pocket and they'd just keep doing what they're doing. I bet other people would have made a ball change almost immediately.

What I find frustrating about the above scenario is...you've just wasted one entire game...you've put your team down 0-1...yet despite hitting your mark and "feeling" good...you are NO CLOSER to even remotely understanding what in the **** is going on as you were at the start of the game. You started out hitting right of the headpin in practice...you're now about 4:2 left from there (which is only 1 board left with your feet from where you started in practice...targeting the same spot you were targeting in practice)...and now you're hitting light again.

There's a ton of info about moving left as lanes break down...but you don't see as much info about what to do when you miss right...especially if you were hitting pocket and suddenly aren't. I'm guessing most experts will say the reason for that is...IF you're hitting pocket...you shouldn't ever all of the sudden start hitting light with today's technology resin bowling balls. In other words, if you hit right after hitting pocket...your timing or speed or release is probably off. But that's a dangerous game to play...if you're hitting pocket and then have 2, 3, 4 frames of hitting light and doing nothing about it.

I need a nap.

I will share a theory from an old timer I have bowled against many times over the years, keep in mind he's pushing 70 and uses a 14lb ball.
He starts at the same place every game, he throws a easy suitcase handle style shot. He brings 3 balls one is a spare, one is his trusty Hyroad and a Sky Rocket. He adjusts a little in practice and starts out with the the ball that gets him closest to the pocket from his base starting position, after that he is pretty well on target sometimes adjusting a little as the lanes change. If he started with the sky rocket he will sometimes switch to the hyroad as the line drys out.
Last time I bowled with him he used the hyroad and adjusted his feet a fairly small amount over the whole bowling session, the key is his approach/ footwork/ release is virtually identical on every shot. This allows him to fine tune his shot by making slight adjustments to his hand position, resulting in impressive scoring.
He bowled something on the order of 236/258/276 and carries a 227 average ....all by keeping it simple and not overthinking it.
I would estimate you put more thought into that post than he puts into the whole night !

[ChuckR]

2 other things I have added to my arsenal. Check where I DRIFT. Check where I start the push away. Over drift and I never know where the line is. Raising push away increases speed and helps hold the line that started to work.

[billf]

Unfortunately with the OP, this falls on deaf ears.

My motto in bowling and making adjustments is K.I.S.S.(Keep It Simple Stupid).

Miss left, move left. Miss right, move right. That is assuming you made a good shot that necessitated a move and that you hit where you wanted to down the lane. That is hard for some people to know whether your shot was good or not.

At the level that any of us on this forum bowls, making axis, rotation or any advanced adjustments to a delivery just further complicates the game with skill that we just don't possess.
Find your one good release and get consistent with it. Once you have mastered that, then you can MAYBE incorporate other releases and hand positions.

My measly $.02

I 100% agree with this. Unfortunately I started messing with hand positions way too soon and now can't seem to stop myself. I like being able to do what others can't. But this is also why it's taken me longer to get to where I should be. I can finally change them seamlessly now but still search for the when and where factor this brings to the table. Now if I bowled with somebody of your skill and willingness to help others then I might be in a different position. My way of learning every aspect slowly while you perfect one before moving to another is why you average a ton more than I do. But one day we will both have the knowledge and ability, different roads to the same destination.

[jab5325]

The key as you point out is having a consistent release. I find this is probably the number one issue keeping lots of bowlers I bowl with including me from getting to the 200 + average goal.

You are correct--the biggest issue I have in my game, and that I see across most leagues, is an inconsistent release or timing.

If a bowler gets those two things down and repeatable, they're 75% on their way to averaging 200. The other 25% is learning how to adjust to play the lane.

Once you get there......it's about fine tuning to take your average to the next level.

[Aslan]

Thanks All!!

All very interesting takes/input.

I think Amyers kinda hit it most on the head with his earlier post. I talked to my coach yesterday about this issue and we decided that if I'm missing right in practice...don't just move 1-2 boards right with your feet...do a 3:2 move right, like Amyers suggested.

As to "overthinking"...in my defense...and yes I admit it's an issue....

1) You have to realize that's not 100% controllable. I know it SEEMS like it is. But some personalities (or personality disorders) make people more prone to "overthink" than others. And to those "others"...they view it often times as completely ridiculous and can't understand it.

2) Bowling (or any sport/hobby/activity) is like DATING. How so you ask? Dating is almost ALL about expectations. Are you scoring enough with the ladies? No? Lower your standards. I GUARANTEE...no matter how broke down, poor, stinky, flea infested of a fat loser that you are (assuming you are any of those things)....there IS a girl for YOU!! She is NOT going to be pretty. She may not even have much of a personality. She may in fact look and act a LOT like Rosanne Barr. If you're smelly enough...she may not even be able to get out of bed without help from a forklift. BUT....you CAN score. Just not with Heidi Klum. Or Heidi Klum's ugliest relative. But maybe Heidi Klum's former aquaintance's aunt with a limp and a goiter....you're in business!!

Bowling is all about what you want to achieve. The VAST....and I'm talking VAAAAAST majority of bowlers are casual bowlers. League bowlers make up what, 20% of the bowling population at best? And of league bowlers....at BEST...20% even really care. So now you're talking about the 4% that most people in this site fall into. Of that 4%...I'd say 80% have no interest in ever competing in a real tournament (no-tap doesn't count), or bowling the USBC Open, or even bowling in a local BVL tournament. I'm a proud member of the other 20%....or 0.8% of the population. And of that 0.8%...I have very aggressive short and long term goals.

In one of the "goals" threads...RobM made the point that his "goal" was to have fun. I responded that such a goal made little sense to me. What I meant by that was...if I'm not getting better...and I'm not inching my way towards my goals...it's not "fun" to bowl. If I ever get to the point...as I will eventually get to...where I've "peaked"...and bowling just becomes something to do to get me out of the house....I'm probably going to just find something else to do. That doesn't make sense to everyone...but remember...I'm speaking from 0.8% of the bowling population. I do things 99.2% of the population DON'T do....like;

- practice
- take lessons
- post in forums
- read/subscribe to bowling publications
- watch PBA events on TV
- subscribe and watch PBA50 and PWBA events (including qualifying and match play)
- take notes while bowling
- learn about bowling ball specifications
- video tape myself bowling
- carry a 5-6 ball arsenal
- bowl in tournaments
- etc....

So, the question is....(and we touched on this in another thread)...is the above list abnormal? Should I feel "weird" because I do those things? Believe me...at LEAST 80% of bowlers would look at that list and say, "Yup...weirdo." But is that what we want? Because if that list is abnormal...then bowling as a "sport" is abnormal. Because I'd argue those things are almost all necessary to excel at the sport at higher levels.

I'm not criticizing anyone or their approach. I truly respect people that can "just bowl for fun"...I wish I was wired that way many times....like Monday when I bowled a 133...believe me...it would have been nice to have FUN bowling a 133....and it was NOT FUN...and it took every bit of my strength not to assault my bag like a wilderbeast attacking a wounded duck. But I don't run 5Ks "for the experience" and I don't "bowl just for fun". I'm just not wired that way.

Granted...it would be nice if that dedication would actually pay OFF...ONCE in awhile... And it would be NICE...if my dedication to learning the sport and all the elements would keep me from getting outbowled by 60-year olds that can't bend over and fall off their shots and have approaches that look like a weird form of an epileptic seizure (nobody here...just amazingly horrible forms I've seen from some high average bowlers in leagues)....but lets not make my head hurt...or explode. I have leagues tonight....so I need to gently come down from my caffeine high and think about positive things. :cool:

[HowDoIHookAgain]

You are overcomplicating everything there is about the sport of bowling. If you find that you're having a hard time keeping a steady average, then you need to stop worrying about everything else and focus on consistency. I hate people who bring with them 6 balls for 3 games. If you can't adjust with just one or two balls in your arsenal on a house shot, then why would you use 6 balls used for 6 different things? If someone's in a tournament with a different pattern, like cheetah or viper, then I can see someone lugging in a bunch of balls. But if you are having a hard time establishing a consistent (that's the word of the day) average, then you should really think about going back to basics.

Concerning your first question, this is what practice is all about. Establishing that first shot. I normally tend to stand about 26 or 27 in the bone-dry, wood lane house, and shoot for about 13. For the synthetic, more modern center I bowl in for school, I'll stand about 22 or so and shoot 10 (though I'll probably have to change that mark, as I haven't bowled there in well over 6 months). These are just my starting points. If my shot is high, I move everything one or two boards left. If it's light, one or two boards right. If the shots still aren't working, I just keep toying around with them until I find the one that I like, and that becomes my general shot for the day (adjustments made as oil transitions). The next time I bowl, I go back to the shot I had that worked the best last time. So to give you an answer in one sentence, start bowling where you had the most success last time, and adjust from there.

Concerning your second question, missing right normally means you're ball just isn't able to come into the pocket. This is common knowledge for anyone who's played the game. And while all the methods you stated are reasonable, at the end of the day, the best method for about 80% of bowlers is to just move.

[NewToBowling]

Yeah, I'm the opposite. If I'm not having fun bowling I don't want to be doing it anymore.

I used to go practice by myself but realized whats the point. I'd rather bowl with friends and family. We are in a league together and have fun at it.

And my average is going up. I'm getting better at bowling. I watch YouTube videos and am on here a lot and DVR it on ESPN. I do enjoy the subtleties of the sport but have no grand illusions of where I want to take it. For me it's about fun.

But I can understand your take on it. Shoot for the stars. Don't let others get in your way.

[billf]

- practice
- take lessons
- post in forums
- read/subscribe to bowling publications
- watch PBA events on TV
- subscribe and watch PBA50 and PWBA events (including qualifying and match play)
- take notes while bowling
- learn about bowling ball specifications
- video tape myself bowling
- carry a 5-6 ball arsenal
- bowl in tournaments
- etc....

So, the question is....(and we touched on this in another thread)...is the above list abnormal? Should I feel "weird" because I do those things?

I have a girl that is now a junior in high school. I started coaching her the summer before her freshman year. She was averaging 125 on THS. Last season she averaged 205 on sport shots. Our first lesson I sat down with her and both her parents. I made it clear to her that if her grades dropped I was done. Then I explained how I understood that as a teenage girl she was just that, a child who would also have other responsibilities (chores, dances, boyfriends) so if I started to give her too much to do it was HER job to let me know things were getting out of balance.
Now she is 5'2" and 105lbs with grip sacks in her pockets. This year we talked about where she wanted to go next. Last year was Junior Gold, State districts, led GWOC in average. What was next? She said "Average 210, qualify for State, place in top 100 on at least one pattern at Jr. Gold then next year win State and Jr. Gold"
She wants to bowl in college and go pro. She wanted to go to the Olympics but that is sidelined (for now). So I nicely explained that she is done growing and if she is as serious about reaching her goals as she says then nutrition and working out are also now part of the equation. She jogged 5 miles the next day. Yes she was in a ton of pain later but starting anything easy is not her style. Three months later she can sprint two straight miles, curls 50 lbs and can squat twice her body weight for 15 reps for 3 sets. She practices two hours a day on the lanes, has a boyfriend (who bowls) and works part time. She bowls at least one tournament every weekend when the high school season is going on.
I've tried getting her to look at the bowlingacademy videos and other stuff on youtube, dvd, etc. She says I'm the coach and need to know it, she is the athlete and needs to listen to the coach. That's her balance. I learn it and she does it.
This all started when I told her I didn't care what she says she wants, people say stuff all the time but rather show me what you're willing to do to get where you want. Obviously she got the message. Also, the very first lesson, her dad was there and she replied to something I said with, "I can't, I'm a girl!" I calmly ripped her, I won't accept excuses and saying you're a girl is just an excuse and I don't ever want to hear I can't again. The only thing you can't do are the things you think you can't do. Everything else in the world is possible only when you think you can.

So i closing....you're weird, this girl in nuts and her coach is freaking insane.

[Aslan]

So i closing....you're weird, this girl in nuts and her coach is freaking insane.

I don't like that the bar for being weird in bowling is so low. I'm usually considered weird with a much higher bar....so it's almost not fair.

I'll add to the list:
- I use interchangeable thumb inserts.

Why add that to the list? Because you'd be very surprised how many people see me change out thumb inserts and act like it's something I must have invented.

Once again..."Hey VISE and TURBO!! GREAT job marketing!!! 99% of bowlers have no idea that your product even EXISTS!!" :rolleyes:

Just for all the people posting here, who don't regularly check Aslan's Scores (of the non-lady kind)....as they should because it's literally the most entertaining thread in the entire forum...but I digress....I actually bucked my reputation...to some degree out of SPITE for the haters that claim I don't listen to anyone...and last night...I moved ONCE...on ONE lane...over 3 games. Just ONE move...no ball changes...no small lateral moves or anything...just went up and threw the ball with as little "overthinking" as possible. What happened?? I guess you'll have to go to "Aslan's Scores of the Non-Lady Kind" to find out.

Teaser: NOT anything special. <----don't want to get hopes up too much.

Wait...we have to "work out" to bowl??? I bowl so I don't HAVE to work out. Not to mention, I've boycotted ANY exercise until Heather DÉrricho agrees to go on a date with me...which she is adamantly opposed to...so...not gonna happen.

[GeoLes]

I really find that thinking less leads to better scores.

Pick a spot. If that doesn't work, adjust. Having a consistent routine/release is 75% of the battle, and knowing how to adjust is the other 25%. Don't overthink it.

Now you are sounding like my coach. Make a quick and easy adjustment and just put the ball on the lane. - 'nuff said.

[Tony]

I don't like that the bar for being weird in bowling is so low. I'm usually considered weird with a much higher bar....so it's almost not fair.

I'll add to the list:
- I use interchangeable thumb inserts.

Why add that to the list? Because you'd be very surprised how many people see me change out thumb inserts and act like it's something I must have invented.

Once again..."Hey VISE and TURBO!! GREAT job marketing!!! 99% of bowlers have no idea that your product even EXISTS!!" :rolleyes:

Just for all the people posting here, who don't regularly check Aslan's Scores (of the non-lady kind)....as they should because it's literally the most entertaining thread in the entire forum...but I digress....I actually bucked my reputation...to some degree out of SPITE for the haters that claim I don't listen to anyone...and last night...I moved ONCE...on ONE lane...over 3 games. Just ONE move...no ball changes...no small lateral moves or anything...just went up and threw the ball with as little "overthinking" as possible. What happened?? I guess you'll have to go to "Aslan's Scores of the Non-Lady Kind" to find out.

Teaser: NOT anything special. <----don't want to get hopes up too much.

Wait...we have to "work out" to bowl??? I bowl so I don't HAVE to work out. Not to mention, I've boycotted ANY exercise until Heather DÉrricho agrees to go on a date with me...which she is adamantly opposed to...so...not gonna happen.

I won't say too much on where the bar is set on being weird, but refusing to exercise unless heather DErricho agrees to go on a date .....
Nice to hear you were able to play and not change and adjust hardly at all, it seems like there should be a happy medium where you make several small adjustments as you need to but don't get overly drastic and change too many things too fast.

[jab5325]

I have a girl that is now a junior in high school. I started coaching her the summer before her freshman year. She was averaging 125 on THS. Last season she averaged 205 on sport shots. Our first lesson I sat down with her and both her parents. I made it clear to her that if her grades dropped I was done. Then I explained how I understood that as a teenage girl she was just that, a child who would also have other responsibilities (chores, dances, boyfriends) so if I started to give her too much to do it was HER job to let me know things were getting out of balance.
Now she is 5'2" and 105lbs with grip sacks in her pockets. This year we talked about where she wanted to go next. Last year was Junior Gold, State districts, led GWOC in average. What was next? She said "Average 210, qualify for State, place in top 100 on at least one pattern at Jr. Gold then next year win State and Jr. Gold"
She wants to bowl in college and go pro. She wanted to go to the Olympics but that is sidelined (for now). So I nicely explained that she is done growing and if she is as serious about reaching her goals as she says then nutrition and working out are also now part of the equation. She jogged 5 miles the next day. Yes she was in a ton of pain later but starting anything easy is not her style. Three months later she can sprint two straight miles, curls 50 lbs and can squat twice her body weight for 15 reps for 3 sets. She practices two hours a day on the lanes, has a boyfriend (who bowls) and works part time. She bowls at least one tournament every weekend when the high school season is going on.
I've tried getting her to look at the bowlingacademy videos and other stuff on youtube, dvd, etc. She says I'm the coach and need to know it, she is the athlete and needs to listen to the coach. That's her balance. I learn it and she does it.
This all started when I told her I didn't care what she says she wants, people say stuff all the time but rather show me what you're willing to do to get where you want. Obviously she got the message. Also, the very first lesson, her dad was there and she replied to something I said with, "I can't, I'm a girl!" I calmly ripped her, I won't accept excuses and saying you're a girl is just an excuse and I don't ever want to hear I can't again. The only thing you can't do are the things you think you can't do. Everything else in the world is possible only when you think you can.

So i closing....you're weird, this girl in nuts and her coach is freaking insane.

Kudos to you and the girl. She sounds like a fantastic young woman who is driven and will be successful at whatever she chooses to do in life.

[Aslan]

Kudos to you and the girl. She sounds like a fantastic young woman who is driven and will be successful at whatever she chooses to do in life.

Iceman called. He said to drop her. Sounds like she doesn't have the "gift".

[billf]

Kudos to you and the girl. She sounds like a fantastic young woman who is driven and will be successful at whatever she chooses to do in life.

She wants to be a lawyer. I cringed at the thought until she said she wants to volunteer to help vets get their benefits. She was also the Ohio junior Amvets president. She really has inspired me. Kids like her are a big reason I devote so much time to improving myself as a coach.

[Gibson]

As a novice bowler on a league that gives tons of support, I take great solace in the fact that I don't bowl for a living. That being said my average increases consistantly and I am up grading from my inexpensive pink with black hearts, makes me super happy, basic ball to one much more aggressive. My straight ball is not rocket science. Stand left of center, aim right of center and if I don't have limp wrist or spaghetti arm (a serious issue in my world), I can bowl a consistant game. I have to approach slowly, and not fast pitch the ball down the alley. Any deviation from that and I am cleaning the gutters. LOL

[dnhoffman]

Wow.

[jab5325]

Iceman called. He said to drop her. Sounds like she doesn't have the "gift".

I still don't understand the Iceman references around here.

[Amyers]

I still don't understand the Iceman references around here.

Don't feel bad if you understood them then that means something is wrong in your head anyway. If you really want to know the background just search "gift" I'm sure it will bring up 10k+ posts of nonsense.

[bubba809]

I still don't understand the Iceman references around here.



That's because he's a "Ninja Poster". You get to read his thoughts on life and crawl around in his brain for awhile, then *POOF*, they're gone.
Like a fart in the wind...

[Ishkabibble]

Be consistant. Don't change more than one thing at a time. Trust in yourself and what you can do/are doing.

[Aslan]

I still don't understand the Iceman references around here.

Like em or hate em...(and "em" can be anyone from Iceman to myself or anyone else that has been here awhile)...when a person posts 2000-6000 times and has passion and opinions...heated discussions are bound to pop up from time to time. And some of those topics just keep circling back around endlessly and become "references".

If you even KNEW...how many times people ask what ball to buy...or how many times we've debated wrist braces...or how many times we've debated the value of coaching vs. being "gifted" or how many times we've tackled sandbaggers.... The list could go on and on and on. And when you address these things so many times...they become punch lines or at the least; sources of an :rolleyes:

Best example...Benghazi. In the beginning there was interest in whether or not more could be done and what was done and what should have been done...etc... But, after hearing about it over and over and over on Fox News and right-wing radio...when the general public clearly had lost interest...and then 12+ investigative panels...most concluding there was virtually no wrongdoing...it was clear to see that it was mostly just a way to politically go after the opposing party's front runner for the next election. And once that happened, it became a punch line. Likewise, when Iceman first brought up "The Gift", there was an interesting back and forth about the values of inherent talent versus coaching...but Iceman is persistent and not one to "move" on his positions...so he continued to try and insert "The Gift" into many, many discussions. Once that happened, "being gifted" became more of a punch line than a discussion point.

[Blacksox1]

Like em or hate em...(and "em" can be anyone from Iceman to myself or anyone else that has been here awhile)...when a person posts 2000-6000 times and has passion and opinions...heated discussions are bound to pop up from time to time. And some of those topics just keep circling back around endlessly and become "references".

If you even KNEW...how many times people ask what ball to buy...or how many times we've debated wrist braces...or how many times we've debated the value of coaching vs. being "gifted" or how many times we've tackled sandbaggers.... The list could go on and on and on. And when you address these things so many times...they become punch lines or at the least; sources of an :rolleyes:

Best example...Benghazi. In the beginning there was interest in whether or not more could be done and what was done and what should have been done...etc... But, after hearing about it over and over and over on Fox News and right-wing radio...when the general public clearly had lost interest...and then 12+ investigative panels...most concluding there was virtually no wrongdoing...it was clear to see that it was mostly just a way to politically go after the opposing party's front runner for the next election. And once that happened, it became a punch line. Likewise, when Iceman first brought up "The Gift", there was an interesting back and forth about the values of inherent talent versus coaching...but Iceman is persistent and not one to "move" on his positions...so he continued to try and insert "The Gift" into many, many discussions. Once that happened, "being gifted" became more of a punch line than a discussion point.

A shorter, than normal, answer and concise. Aslan on point! Could be a thread title?

FWIW, Iceman was more on the gifted side vs. coached side of bowling.

I miss the photos of trailers, motorcycles, ice cream, wood decks or bucks.:) Come back Ice!

[Tony]

I still don't understand the Iceman references around here.

He was / is / sometimes a poster who has a million thoughts and would write about them...a lot ! So much that the site administrators had a level set that if you reached 5000 posts or something like that you would get the title GOD instead of Sandbagger, Cranker, Ringer, All-star, or member.
He liked to talk a lot about being a bowling god and sparked lots of interesting and entertaining conversations about anything from health to being a coal miner to bowling on the sacred wood lanes of Podunk Missouri .....
He had a slightly different viewpoint than some of the other more prolific posters and he was not afraid to sling some mud toward those that dared to disagree with the god of bowling!
He was just here a month ago or so and then vanished again , possibly because he couldn't get any takers to go to Podonk and bowl against him on the scrappy old wood lanes that he loved.

[billf]

He was / is / sometimes a poster who has a million thoughts and would write about them...a lot ! So much that the site administrators had a level set that if you reached 5000 posts or something like that you would get the title GOD instead of Sandbagger, Cranker, Ringer, All-star, or member.
He liked to talk a lot about being a bowling god and sparked lots of interesting and entertaining conversations about anything from health to being a coal miner to bowling on the sacred wood lanes of Podunk Missouri .....
He had a slightly different viewpoint than some of the other more prolific posters and he was not afraid to sling some mud toward those that dared to disagree with the god of bowling!
He was just here a month ago or so and then vanished again , possibly because he couldn't get any takers to go to Podonk and bowl against him on the scrappy old wood lanes that he loved.

Now let's be accurate. When I took my hiatus over two years ago I was over 5,000 posts and had that title long before Michael. He said he would catch me and even being away for two years, he couldn't. But there are NO Gods here. A few stubborn, older men with one bowling in sandals but no Gods.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Like em or hate em...(and "em" can be anyone from Iceman to myself or anyone else that has been here awhile)...when a person posts 2000-6000 times and has passion and opinions...heated discussions are bound to pop up from time to time. And some of those topics just keep circling back around endlessly and become "references".

If you even KNEW...how many times people ask what ball to buy...or how many times we've debated wrist braces...or how many times we've debated the value of coaching vs. being "gifted" or how many times we've tackled sandbaggers.... The list could go on and on and on. And when you address these things so many times...they become punch lines or at the least; sources of an :rolleyes:

Best example...Benghazi. In the beginning there was interest in whether or not more could be done and what was done and what should have been done...etc... But, after hearing about it over and over and over on Fox News and right-wing radio...when the general public clearly had lost interest...and then 12+ investigative panels...most concluding there was virtually no wrongdoing...it was clear to see that it was mostly just a way to politically go after the opposing party's front runner for the next election. And once that happened, it became a punch line. Likewise, when Iceman first brought up "The Gift", there was an interesting back and forth about the values of inherent talent versus coaching...but Iceman is persistent and not one to "move" on his positions...so he continued to try and insert "The Gift" into many, many discussions. Once that happened, "being gifted" became more of a punch line than a discussion point.

So the fact that a US embassy was overrun and US citizens were killed in that 3rd world piece of s**t is not a problem for you. Someone is at fault for the lack of security.

[bubba809]

An Aslan dissertation coming in 3...2...1...

[Amyers]

Guys I think we can do just fine without getting into Benghazi on the bowling site.

[Tony]

Now let's be accurate. When I took my hiatus over two years ago I was over 5,000 posts and had that title long before Michael. He said he would catch me and even being away for two years, he couldn't. But there are NO Gods here. A few stubborn, older men with one bowling in sandals but no Gods.

Yes, what you say is true, but he celebrated the title and often made reference to it. That's why I tried to start a movement to make a new class just for him where second guy to 5219 posts gets to be Grand Poo-bah or something to that effect... lol
Besides bowling in sandals didn't he change water into lemonade or something, and part Otter creek ?

[Tony]

Best example...Benghazi. In the beginning there was interest in whether or not more could be done and what was done and what should have been done...etc... But, after hearing about it over and over and over on Fox News and right-wing radio...when the general public clearly had lost interest...and then 12+ investigative panels...most concluding there was virtually no wrongdoing...it was clear to see that it was mostly just a way to politically go after the opposing party's front runner for the next election. And once that happened, it became a punch line.

Green Bay Packers Issue An Unbelievable Personnel Statement!

In a news conference Deanna Favre announced she will be the starting QB for the Packers next season.

Deanna asserts that she is qualified to be the starting QB because she had spent 16 years married to Brett while he played QB for the Packers. Even though she has actually never played football at any level from grade school up and never run the offense of any team or played the game.

During this period of time, she became familiar with the definition of a corner blitz, the nickel package, and man-to-man coverage, so she is now completely comfortable with all the other terminology involving the Packers offense. A survey of Packers fans shows that 50% of those polled supported the move.

Does this sound idiotic and unbelievable or familiar to you?

Hillary Clinton makes the same claims as to why she is qualified to be the President and 50% of Democrats polled agreed.

She has never run a city, county, or state during her "career" of being Bill Clinton's wife. When told Hilary Clinton has experience because she has 8 years in the White House, my immediate thought was "So has the pastry chef."

When it comes to running the State Department, her biggest achievement was getting a US Ambassador and 3 other Americans killed, by pretending terrorism had been defeated.

Rather than saying clearly no wrong doing, maybe a better description is the ruling class taking care of their own, instead of prosecuting her for negligence and willful disregard in not upholding the duties of her position and trying to cover it up.

[vdubtx]

Now let's be accurate. When I took my hiatus over two years ago I was over 5,000 posts and had that title long before Michael. He said he would catch me and even being away for two years, he couldn't. But there are NO Gods here. A few stubborn, older men with one bowling in sandals but no Gods.

And your reason for leaving awhile back? He outed you as an imposter who was making up stories about lots of different things ranging from your "prowess" on the lanes to your service or was it stories of your service. I forget if you were writing a book about your combat service or just a fictional account of it.

Like it or not. ICEMAN brought a lot of entertainment to the site. Sometimes it could be a bit much, but he was just having fun with it. He is one thing, passionate. Passionate about his life, his wife and family, his motorcycles and other toys and his bowling.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Green Bay Packers Issue An Unbelievable Personnel Statement!

In a news conference Deanna Favre announced she will be the starting QB for the Packers next season.

Deanna asserts that she is qualified to be the starting QB because she had spent 16 years married to Brett while he played QB for the Packers. Even though she has actually never played football at any level from grade school up and never run the offense of any team or played the game.

During this period of time, she became familiar with the definition of a corner blitz, the nickel package, and man-to-man coverage, so she is now completely comfortable with all the other terminology involving the Packers offense. A survey of Packers fans shows that 50% of those polled supported the move.

Does this sound idiotic and unbelievable or familiar to you?

Hillary Clinton makes the same claims as to why she is qualified to be the President and 50% of Democrats polled agreed.

She has never run a city, county, or state during her "career" of being Bill Clinton's wife. When told Hilary Clinton has experience because she has 8 years in the White House, my immediate thought was "So has the pastry chef."

When it comes to running the State Department, her biggest achievement was getting a US Ambassador and 3 other Americans killed, by pretending terrorism had been defeated.

Rather than saying clearly no wrong doing, maybe a better description is the ruling class taking care of their own, instead of prosecuting her for negligence and willful disregard in not upholding the duties of her position and trying to cover it up.

Thanks Tony.

[Tony]

And your reason for leaving awhile back? He outed you as an imposter who was making up stories about lots of different things ranging from your "prowess" on the lanes to your service or was it stories of your service. I forget if you were writing a book about your combat service or just a fictional account of it.

Like it or not. ICEMAN brought a lot of entertainment to the site. Sometimes it could be a bit much, but he was just having fun with it. He is one thing, passionate. Passionate about his life, his wife and family, his motorcycles and other toys and his bowling.

I certainly agree, he was controversial but it was more fun having him around, than not. It didn't always see things the same way as he did but it did make you think and he usually didn't take my ribbing too seriously.....

[Aslan]

So the fact that a US embassy was overrun and US citizens were killed in that 3rd world piece of s**t is not a problem for you. Someone is at fault for the lack of security.


Guys I think we can do just fine without getting into Benghazi on the bowling site.

Too late for that...


She has never run a city, county, or state during her "career" of being Bill Clinton's wife. When told Hilary Clinton has experience because she has 8 years in the White House, my immediate thought was "So has the pastry chef."

When it comes to running the State Department, her biggest achievement was getting a US Ambassador and 3 other Americans killed, by pretending terrorism had been defeated.
Rather than saying clearly no wrong doing, maybe a better description is the ruling class taking care of their own, instead of prosecuting her for negligence and willful disregard in not upholding the duties of her position and trying to cover it up.


An Aslan dissertation coming in 3...2...1...

Okay...
1) Yes, the loss of life was tragic. But 60 embassy employees were killed under George W. Bush and I don't remember 14 investigations into any of it. So, if those congressmen are truly concerned about Benghazi...because of the loss of life...then I imagine we can go back to the past embassy attacks and I'm sure they would have the same quest for the truth and vigor to uncover problems right?

But that didn't happen did it? No it did not. And Democrats are no better. They went nuts over the misleading Iraq war intelligence...then were silent over Benghazi. Both sides are hypocrites. The DIFFERENCE is....Bush presided over 60 deaths and a war that killed thousands. Hillary Clinton was just the secretary of state...for a short time...and presided over an event where 4 people died. Numbers are numbers. Facts are facts. And McCarthy even accidentally admitted that the latest Benghazi probes (#13 and #14) were essentially just designed to further reduce Hillary's chances in 2016. To me, that doesn't feel good concerning the people that died. Mistakes get made...people die. It would be nice if politicians were more honest, but they are not...NONE of them..on EITHER side of the aisle. But to have 14 investigations into an issue and do it for political reasons...that doesn't really honor the memories of the fallen.

The Republicans got what they wanted. They have a weakened Hillary Clinton that is now under assault from an even further left Bernie Sanders. They got a possibility that Joe Biden enters the race. Beating an unpopular Hillary in the general election "might" have been a better strategy than introducing the loveable ole Joe who just lost his son or a guy like Bernie Sanders that is going to have massive appeal to younger and poorer voters. But hey...it's not about whats "right"...it's about what "wins". We learned that when George Bush's campaign spread the rumor that John McCain's daughter was illigitmate or when Trump claimed McCain wasn't really a "hero" since he got shot down in the first place. Bush won the presidency and went on to be the worst President in modern times...and now Trump is leading the polls. Further proof that it's not about doing the "right" thing...it's about doing the thing that works.

2) Hilary Clinton was a congresswoman from New York for a time...so your premise that she is simply a wife of a popular President is not entirely true. And Elizabeth Dole won an election when she was simply the wife of a person that lost the Presidency...so it happens.


And your reason for leaving awhile back? He outed you as an imposter who was making up stories about lots of different things ranging from your "prowess" on the lanes to your service or was it stories of your service. I forget if you were writing a book about your combat service or just a fictional account of it.
That's true. And it's a shame...because Bill and Rob and MikeW and Iceman are very interesting, lots of bowling history and knowledge...but most if not all of them at times have had to step back from the site because sometimes it's a little more harsh or a little less welcoming than they'd like it to be. Now, in Bill's defense, it wasn't just Iceman's 20/20 investigation into Bill...it was also Iceman following him around the site throwing it in his face every chance he got...but still. I'm not going anywhere (I don't think)...because my skin is unusually thick. I've taken far worse abuse for far longer on the last site I was on...it virtually rolls right off me now.


Like it or not. ICEMAN brought a lot of entertainment to the site. Sometimes it could be a bit much, but he was just having fun with it. He is one thing, passionate. Passionate about his life, his wife and family, his motorcycles and other toys and his bowling.
I DO miss the passion. I like finding people that have a real passion for bowling. Whether they are good or a newbie...it's just nice and refreshing to see excitement about a game that has been on the decline so long.

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: I like when my "dissertations" are announced.

[Amyers]

Too late for that...





Okay...
1) Yes, the loss of life was tragic. But 60 embassy employees were killed under George W. Bush and I don't remember 14 investigations into any of it. So, if those congressmen are truly concerned about Benghazi...because of the loss of life...then I imagine we can go back to the past embassy attacks and I'm sure they would have the same quest for the truth and vigor to uncover problems right?

But that didn't happen did it? No it did not. And Democrats are no better. They went nuts over the misleading Iraq war intelligence...then were silent over Benghazi. Both sides are hypocrites. The DIFFERENCE is....Bush presided over 60 deaths and a war that killed thousands. Hillary Clinton was just the secretary of state...for a short time...and presided over an event where 4 people died. Numbers are numbers. Facts are facts. And McCarthy even accidentally admitted that the latest Benghazi probes (#13 and #14) were essentially just designed to further reduce Hillary's chances in 2016. To me, that doesn't feel good concerning the people that died. Mistakes get made...people die. It would be nice if politicians were more honest, but they are not...NONE of them..on EITHER side of the aisle. But to have 14 investigations into an issue and do it for political reasons...that doesn't really honor the memories of the fallen.

The Republicans got what they wanted. They have a weakened Hillary Clinton that is now under assault from an even further left Bernie Sanders. They got a possibility that Joe Biden enters the race. Beating an unpopular Hillary in the general election "might" have been a better strategy than introducing the loveable ole Joe who just lost his son or a guy like Bernie Sanders that is going to have massive appeal to younger and poorer voters. But hey...it's not about whats "right"...it's about what "wins". We learned that when George Bush's campaign spread the rumor that John McCain's daughter was illigitmate or when Trump claimed McCain wasn't really a "hero" since he got shot down in the first place. Bush won the presidency and went on to be the worst President in modern times...and now Trump is leading the polls. Further proof that it's not about doing the "right" thing...it's about doing the thing that works.

2) Hilary Clinton was a congresswoman from New York for a time...so your premise that she is simply a wife of a popular President is not entirely true. And Elizabeth Dole won an election when she was simply the wife of a person that lost the Presidency...so it happens.


That's true. And it's a shame...because Bill and Rob and MikeW and Iceman are very interesting, lots of bowling history and knowledge...but most if not all of them at times have had to step back from the site because sometimes it's a little more harsh or a little less welcoming than they'd like it to be. Now, in Bill's defense, it wasn't just Iceman's 20/20 investigation into Bill...it was also Iceman following him around the site throwing it in his face every chance he got...but still. I'm not going anywhere (I don't think)...because my skin is unusually thick. I've taken far worse abuse for far longer on the last site I was on...it virtually rolls right off me now.


I DO miss the passion. I like finding people that have a real passion for bowling. Whether they are good or a newbie...it's just nice and refreshing to see excitement about a game that has been on the decline so long.

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: I like when my "dissertations" are announced.

Can't really believe it took you this long to post.

[fortheloveofbowling]

I would be very interested in reading the list of attacks you referenced Aslan.

[Aslan]

I would be very interested in reading the list of attacks you referenced Aslan.

It's easier to post a link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_U.S._diplomatic_facilities). January 2002- September 17, 2008 were under GW's watch.

Looking at the list, I think the reason most people don't realize most of em even happened is that in most embassy and consulate attacks, American civillians/diplomats are usually no hurt/killed. Usually it's just security or staff that work there that aren't US citizens.

The 2006 attack on Karachi killed a US diplomat. The attack on the embassy in Yemen also killed one. But the other 58 were staff, security, etc and weren't necessarily US citizens.

But the list shows that these are regular things that happen. Whether it was Saigon in 1968, Beirut in 1983, Nairobi in 1998, Yemen in 2002...all of which were far deadlier than the attack on Benghazi...the point is we didn't have 14 investigative panels trying to pin the fault on the secretary of state nor the next presidential front runner in the opposing party. Neither Colin Powell nor Condaleeza Rice faced any criticism for embassy or consulate bombings. Both faced heavy criticism for the intelligence errors that led to the Iraq war; and Rice faced some scrutiny for her decisions regarding the use of certain interrogation techniques...but Colin Powell also had a private e-mail as did Clinton...nobody is calling for the FBI to investigate that.

So again, it's not that the lives don't matter or additional measures or even an investigation be called for...but when that investigation leads to possible upgrades or changes to make people safer...that's one thing. But when it's an investigation done over and over and over again 14 times...where the head of the recent ones accidentally admits it was to discredit a popular nominee for President...then we have a "joke" versus a serious issue that needs attention.

After the attack in Saigon, the US fought a war and killed 750,000 Vietnamese soldiers. After the attack in Beirut, they completely re-vamped security measures/procedures all over the World at their embassies and consulates and created 2 government departments. After the attack in Nairobi, the US launched cruise missles at targets in the Sudan and Afghanastan and issued warrants for the Al Queda leadership, most of which were eliminated in the last 9 years, mostly under Obama. Yet in Benghazi...only 4 deaths...and rather than blame those responsible and call for a massive response against our enemies...the Republicans decided time would be better spent to cancel the planned 342nd hearing on the Whitewater scandal...and start a new series of Benghazi investigations. I guess after impeaching Bill didn't work and the 300th investigation into the Kennedy Assasination didn't provide any new details...maybe they're bored. I mean, when you're in Congress with a 13% approval rating and your only claim to fame is that you managed to make the entire government shut down...I guess it's kinda a boring job if you think about it.