Strokers Rant.. (about crankers)

[bobforsaken]

Warning.. This is nothing but complaining and whining.... I know I need to suck it up and get better... just wanted to vent.:mad:


I'd been feeling great.. Averaged over 200 all summer long... I was really confident that when the Fall Leagues started I'd be able to establish my average over 200 for the first time. To shorten the story a bit, my house has had two new lane machines they had been working with. The first week everything was snapping so hard I was getting a ton of splits and averaged 155. There must have been complaints because they changed the pattern. The next two weeks I came with a bit of surface to bleed off some energy and averaged 210 and 215. Many of the Crankers were stuggling a bit.. but Tournament bowlers were still doing fine. (pattern was pretty flat) I found playing a shallower angle gave me some success

They decided to change the pattern again... and I struggled with a 170ish average. I was getting some wet/dry issues if I played around 2nd arrow with a shallow angle. So I needed to increase my angle through the front to keep the ball hitting pocket but carry became a real issue. I was playing a breakpoint of 5 to keep the ball online. Playing straighter was a no go with a flood between 2nd arrows and very little oil outside. Mind you I'm a stroker who is a wannabe tweener.

I took Friday off and worked on figuring out how best to play the new pattern. Now the Crankers are having a great time throwing the ball right and having it scream back. We even had our first 300, but I feel like I have to grind out 180 games without being able to strike consistently.

As an experiment I tried to really exaggerate my attempt at a cranker release (which may only really put me in the tweener category). I literally was missing by 5 or more boards at times and was carrying everything. (where as before I had to be perfect just to hit pocket)
I'm kind of annoyed at how easy the shot becomes for crankers at the expense of lower rev players. I'm at a point where I'm trying to develop consistency with that release because what I had been doing for the past year and a half seems to be at such a disadvantage on the new House shot.

Anyway.. I just wanted to vent a bit about how the house shot caters to higher rev players that don't really need to develop precision to succeed.

As a side note.. the Cranker that got the 300 this week had done a tournament on a difficult sport pattern (2014 nationals) the weekend prior, and was averaging below 130 before he quit the tourney... He carries an average in the 230's in various leagues.

[Gutternut]

I'm a cranker and I fight to keep my avg around 170-180 but the low rev old guys play straight down the middle and drop it right in the pocket consistently racking up multiple strikes.
I am also a lefty so of course no one is helping me on my lines lol.

[Aslan]

Well, it's good that you identified it as a "vent" or I'm sure you'd see multiple comments that you need to learn how to be a cranker.

I feel ya man. It's very frustrating going to league night and knowing that you know more about bowling balls, and patterns, and adjustments, and technique than anyone else out there...but you average in the 170s while you watch thumbless bowlers throwing 7lb house balls and they manage to get a couple 240s games.

But, the advice I give and follow is...as tough as it is...just keep working on your game, keep picking up those spares, etc... I've seen a TON of crankers, 2-handers, and thumbless guys have good games. But I haven't seen very many in the PBA. "Cranking" died with Mark Roth and urethane balls. 2-handers think they are the future because they live the illusion that since Belmo makes it look easy, it MUST be easy...wrong. And how many thumbless bowlers actually have the consistency and spare shooting ability to get to the PBA level?? I can't think of one.

Bowling is frustrating. Sometimes you do everything right...and you still get beat. Sometimes you just make 2-3 mistakes...and you're looking at 170-190...meanwhile you watch people with approaches that look like they have a scorpion in their pants...and they manage to bowl a 279. I ran into a new bowler, bowling thumbless, at the center Saturday. He kept going on and on and on about how he just joined a league and only has like a 152 average but recently bowled a 266. Was it annoying? Yes. Why? Because I've never bowled a 266 in sanctioned play. So if I had to face this kid in brackets or a tournament would I be frightened? Absolutely not. He missed most of his spares and was visibly tired after 3 games because he was TRYING SO HARD to make that ball spin. I LOVE to play big, fat, thumbless bowlers...because I'm almost CERTAIN that by Game 3...they're DONE. Once they tire out and lose that ball speed...it gets ugly fast.

The trick is learning to go from a stroker with a flat release to a tweener with an effortless release that comes through the ball. I'd put my energy into that instead of even entertaining the idea of learning to rip the cover off the ball like Mark Roth.

[fokai73]

I used to bowl with a 190'ish bowler who complained about bowling with crankers. That the house caters to these folks. But, tournament bowlers still do well......"tournament bowlers still do well" it's the same cry I heard over the years and I stopped listening to bowlers who cry and ***** about conditions and other bowlers. I know you're venting, but forget about them and what the house puts out! forget it, and if you don't, you'll still be stuck in the mud.

It's just you and the pins. I'm surrounded by guys who know (or think they know) all about ball dynamics, covers, lane conditions, lane graphs, ect.... But the two things these bowlers ignore, or don't know much about, is ball motion and pin action. You can stay ahead of the pattern, make the right ball choice, adjust tilt/rotation, etc.. if they knew more about these two things - of course their physical game has to be sound too.

I'm a classic bowler and I used to think like you. But, the moment I stopped thinking whats around me and focused more of what's in front of me, things got better. I am a straighter player, but why is it, I averaged higher playing passed the track? I accepted the fact that I'm not a high a rev player but I still can play on or passed the 4th arrow because I worked on it. again, I prefer small angles for easier spares, and on sport shots, for me, it's important I stay within my game/limits. but mentally I feel that I am stronger than the bowlers who let the outside world into their heads. To achieve many things physically, the mind needs to be empty and clear.

In fact, my weakness is drier conditions. So what do I do, I joined (drafted) into a second shift league which is on the drier side and compete with guys who average 210-230's with all different styles. I force myself into the woods, being prepared for whatever I come face to face with. That's the crazy conditions and bowler types I bowl with and try to get my points. I accepted my weakness and I'm trying to make it my strength. You can do the same now that you've vented.

Also, when we do well bowling or win, we win. When we don't do well or lose, we learn. Positives are always a plus.

[JasonNJ]

I think that's part of the beauty of bowling. Doesn't matter if you're a cranker, stroker, tweener, 2 hander or 1 hander it's all about repeating your shot and hitting your mark. What other sport do you see so many diverse styles and yet on any given day any one using that style can win. I mean I remember one of the members on here bowls in a wheelchair, I think that is awesome. Instead of getting upset how one style seems to have an advantage, I think you should just admire that they can bowl that way and tip your cap to them. Then keep practicing and master whatever is the best style for you and then beat them so they can then complain about your style.

[AlexNC]

My brother bowls two handed; doesn't practice and does not concern himself with technique or even using targets. As result, he struggles when things don't go well because he doesn't know what to change. When the conditions are right, he scores big, and his speed/rev rate allow him a lot of room to miss - he can really blow up the rack. I know its better to worry about yourself, but I can sympathize with the frustration/annoyance. My style is more that of a stroker/tweener. I take comfort in knowing that putting the work in with practice / learning will make me more consistent and versatile in the long run.

[Gutternut]

I LOVE to play big, fat, thumbless bowlers...because I'm almost CERTAIN that by Game 3...they're DONE. Once they tire out and lose that ball speed...it gets ugly fast..

I could be considered this guy............the 3rd game is usually my best, probably because I have lost speed lol.

[Mike White]

I LOVE to play big, fat, thumbless bowlers...because I'm almost CERTAIN that by Game 3...they're DONE. Once they tire out and lose that ball speed...it gets ugly fast.

Ok but against a normal size, fit, thumbless bowler that understands how to play the game, not just chuck it and hope, you're toast without a boatload of handicap.

[fordman1]

The main thing that bothers me about bowling a cranker is they carry so many messengers. They carry hits in the nose so light they should be leaving 5 counts. Then there is the 10 pins I leave so many of and the get the scout coming across. I do really enjoy when the wheels come off and they leave some of the ugliest spares ever. Ah wouldn't it be great to young, strong and stupid again.....

[fortheloveofbowling]

The main thing that bothers me about bowling a cranker is they carry so many messengers. They carry hits in the nose so light they should be leaving 5 counts. Then there is the 10 pins I leave so many of and the get the scout coming across. I do really enjoy when the wheels come off and they leave some of the ugliest spares ever. Ah wouldn't it be great to young, strong and stupid again.....

It is always odd how the better you throw it the luckier you get huh?:rolleyes:

[fordman1]

It is always odd how the better you throw it the luckier you get huh?:rolleyes:

Throwing the ball hard with a ton of fingers isn't the same as throwing it better. There are some people who always get a break and others who never do.

[Aslan]

I could be considered this guy............the 3rd game is usually my best, probably because I have lost speed lol.

A lot of that depends on lane conditions. On drier conditions with the lanes breaking down...it gets tricky to keep the speed up and/or elevate speed without messing up the shot. And the more revs...the more the conditions are going to impact your shot. BUT...on wider/longer/heavier patterns...it could go the other way where once you tire...you start finding the pocket.


Ok but against a normal size, fit, thumbless bowler that understands how to play the game, not just chuck it and hope, you're toast without a boatload of handicap.
Fortunately finding a bowler that fits that description is like finding a unicorn...so it's neither here nor there.

If bowling thumbless was advantageous...you'd see far more of it on the tour than you do.

[Mike White]

A lot of that depends on lane conditions. On drier conditions with the lanes breaking down...it gets tricky to keep the speed up and/or elevate speed without messing up the shot. And the more revs...the more the conditions are going to impact your shot. BUT...on wider/longer/heavier patterns...it could go the other way where once you tire...you start finding the pocket.


Fortunately finding a bowler that fits that description is like finding a unicorn...so it's neither here nor there.

If bowling thumbless was advantageous...you'd see far more of it on the tour than you do.

It's an advantage on a walled up house condition where accuracy is less important, and back end motion (to carry crap) is more.

On the tour, accuracy is needed, but the additional back end movement of no thumb allows the bowler to be a little less accurate, and still competitive.


If you've put in 10 years of developing a standard release, and are close to the PBA level, then see J.B. winning with 2 hands, are you going to throw away those 10 years, and switch, or go with what has gotten you that far?

If you're just starting out and have seen J.B. winning with 2 hands, you may try to develop that technique, but it's going to be a good number of years before you reach PBA level of ability.

The future 2 handers are still in the incubation phase.

What hurts most youngsters trying to develop that level is the fact that the lane pattern (house) doesn't demand that level to score well.

It's difficult to mentally disconnect bowling well with scoring well while you are learning.

[Aslan]

Valid points...but I'd just again argue that many of the 2-handed bowlers that are in the incubation phase...will never see the PBA. What Belmo does is NOT as easy it looks. 2-handers think it's the key to scoring big...but it's ONLY the key to scoring big if you do it like Belmo...and nobody has mastered that except him...ever.

And we were talking thumbless...not 2-handed. How many thumbless bowlers are on the tour? One? How long have people been trying to bowl thumbless? Since Mark Roth?

Here's the problem with 2-handers and thumbless bowlers (begin Aslan rant #109)...and it's a very simple concept:

It's trying to skip ahead. It's taking a weakness in bowling and trying to exploit it. Rather than spend years to master bowling...they think they've found a "short cut". If you don't believe that...feel free to go to ANY bowling center during cosmic bowling and watch the kids and teenagers...they are either absolutely horrible girls throwing the ball in the gutter and laughing...or guys throwing 6lb balls thumbless to make them "hook". It's EASIER. It doesn't take time and lessons and practice. It just takes a light ball...a small amount of coordination...no physical requirement whatsoever...and you get rewarded with a higher strike rate.

Do I care? Not really. Once you've bowled in enough leagues or in tournaments or enough sweeps...you see the vast majority of these guys fall apart. Their weaknesses get exposed. And that's why they never make it to the PBA. You have to make spares. It's not "optional" at that level. And you can't just throw to a breakpoint and carry...not on sport patterns.

And I should be clear...my team tonight in my serious league...I bowl 4th and the guys bowling 3rd and 5th are both thumbless bowlers. One averages 10 pins less than me and the other 10 pins more than me. But, I'm better than either of em...and in 1-3 more years my average will show that. They can go on "runs" and I just can't keep up...but when they miss...and they DO miss...they get splits and washouts and some of the weirdest leaves ever. Sometimes they even dump the first shot in the gutter. And their spare shooting is anywhere from 60% to 80% tops. Corner pins...probably closer to 40-60%. And usually by Game 3...with the lanes breaking down...dry to start with...they start to tire...then they are bowling in the 140s-150s. They run out of room laterally and just can't keep the speed up to counter their rev rate.

[NewToBowling]

Here's the problem with 2-handers and thumbless bowlers (begin Aslan rant #109)...and it's a very simple concept:

It's trying to skip ahead. It's taking a weakness in bowling and trying to exploit it. Rather than spend years to master bowling...they think they've found a "short cut". If you don't believe that...feel free to go to ANY bowling center during cosmic bowling and watch the kids and teenagers...they are either absolutely horrible girls throwing the ball in the gutter and laughing...or guys throwing 6lb balls thumbless to make them "hook". It's EASIER. It doesn't take time and lessons and practice. It just takes a light ball...a small amount of coordination...no physical requirement whatsoever...and you get rewarded with a higher strike rate.


First of all you can't gather anything from cosmic bowlers. They are there for fun and have absolutely no care about getting better.

Second they play thumbless because that's the only way to hook house balls. Add to that the holes are not drilled for their hands so it's actually counter productive to be using a thumb hole where you have to hold onto the ball for dear life anyways.

I think it's easier to convert a thumbless house ball bowler to conventional than a house thumb bowler because you don't have the muscle memory of grabbing onto the ball with your thumb.

Most people don't want to master bowling. They want to hook the hell out of it and get strikes on house shots. Go to any league in any bowling alley and this is the mentality for 'most" league bowlers.

Only a very select few carry about the discussions going on these bowling boards (RG, pin distance, lane condition, etc)

[billf]

It's difficult to mentally disconnect bowling well with scoring well while you are learning.

Truest statement I've read/heard in many months

[RobLV1]

And usually by Game 3...with the lanes breaking down...dry to start with...they start to tire...then they are bowling in the 140s-150s. They run out of room laterally and just can't keep the speed up to counter their rev rate.

You are referring to the wrong class of bowlers. Last year I watched Johnny Petraglia Jr. shoot a very high series (800?) throwing an original Lt 48 rubber ball thumbless. Last summer I watched him bowl an 1106 series (four games), thumb in, with an aggressive reactive ball. It's not the style that is in question, it's the calibre of the bowler. There are great bowlers thumb in, and there are great bowlers, thumb out.

[Amyers]

I know what aslan is talking about I bowl with a few of those guys who's line looks like 234-188-140 but not all thumbless bowlers are that way. I bowl with a thumbless guy doesn't actually hook the ball that much probably has 19-20 mph speed heck of a bowler and spare shooter. They do seem rarer than talented thumb in bowlers or even talented two handers but they are out there.

[Aslan]

You are referring to the wrong class of bowlers. Last year I watched Johnny Petraglia Jr. shoot a very high series (800?) throwing an original Lt 48 rubber ball thumbless. Last summer I watched him bowl an 1106 series (four games), thumb in, with an aggressive reactive ball. It's not the style that is in question, it's the calibre of the bowler. There are great bowlers thumb in, and there are great bowlers, thumb out.

Again....I'm not saying you can't be successful bowling thumbless. You also can be successful bowling up the 2nd arrow with your hand up the side of the ball...throwing a urethane ball with very little angle. Hell...you can bowl well walking backwards towards the foul line (many videos on Youtube). The question is (and this was beaten to death during the spare ball debates 1-1024)...if it's such a great style/strategy...why do so few at the highest level adopt/use said strategy?? Johnny Petraglia is a great bowler...no doubt. But there's a reason he's not on the National Tour (PBA). Earl Anthony and WRW are the greatest bowlers ever...but I've found ZERO coaches that would teach a bowler to bowl like either Earl Anthony or WRW.

The true thumbless bowler on my team...he's been struggling. The consistency with that style is tough for the average bowler. The anchor actually doesn't truly bowl "thumbless". His thumb is actually in the ball...but only up to the first knuckle. So he's found a style where he can combine the angle/power of a thumbless release...with the more consistent and controllable style of having your thumb in the ball. And while I can occasionally beat him...every night he usually has a slightly higher series than me. His spare shooting isn't as good....but better than the true thumbless bowler....but his strike rate is better than mine.

[Gutternut]

The anchor actually doesn't truly bowl "thumbless". His thumb is actually in the ball...but only up to the first knuckle. So he's found a style where he can combine the angle/power of a thumbless release...with the more consistent and controllable style of having your thumb in the ball. And while I can occasionally beat him...every night he usually has a slightly higher series than me. His spare shooting isn't as good....but better than the true thumbless bowler....but his strike rate is better than mine.

I get what you're saying, bowling is about consistency.

Curious about your thumbless teammate who uses his thumb..........what is his span? Is it close to a conventional drill or fitted like your span would be? I can see myself trying to adopt this.

[Aslan]

I get what you're saying, bowling is about consistency.

Curious about your thumbless teammate who uses his thumb..........what is his span? Is it close to a conventional drill or fitted like your span would be? I can see myself trying to adopt this.

I can check. I think the hole for his thumb is more shallow and slightly further back than a standard thumbhole would be. But I'm not sure. I actually always thought his thumb was out...and just found out that he uses it. All the bowling I've seen and thats the first person I've seen that does that.

[Redheadhunter21]

I know a little about thumbless bowling as that's how I started bowling. I bought a 15lb karma pearl and wasn't a able to get the ball to do what I wanted with 3-fingers, so I started thumbless bowling and got the action I wanted. My highest game was a 244, but weird splits and the fact I had to stand all the way left up against the ball return wasn't helping. With joining a league this fall, instead of improving on thumbless bowling I decided to go back to 3 fingers. I have started out with a 130 average but after 5 weeks my spare shot is coming around. I also picked up a used Arson pearl and I got a 206 the other day.

My revs are down and I have slowed from a speed of 16-17 at the pins thumbless to a speed of 13 at the pins. I figured it was best change now and learn as the league goes on.

[dnhoffman]

On a house shot it really shouldn't matter, I've found that you can even play through a lot of carry down caused by crankers with a little loft, or by changing your pace up a bit on the same line once they've moved beyond it and are trying to figure out why everything is going Brooklyn.

[fordman1]

I'm confused why would carry down make your ball go Brooklyn? Carry down should make your ball not hook. Making it come in light? Carry down is when rubber or plastic balls pick up oil and carry it DOWN. New type balls suck up the oil and make you ball hook sooner, making it go Brooklyn.

[dnhoffman]

Yes, you are confused.

[fordman1]

Confused but not wrong. Reactive resin balls pick up oil like a vacuum. Plastic and rubber just smear it around and down the lane. Carry down has be a very minute problem in years. Burned up lanes from reactive is much more a problem making bowlers move.

[billf]

Yes, you are confused.


Thanks for the lengthy and insightful response after making a post such as yours. See, I also would like to know how loft helps with carry down seeing how conventional wisdom has those things contradicting one another.

[Amyers]

Yes, you are confused.

I'm pretty sure you are incorrect on who is confused here. I'm pretty sure everything you mentioned is exactly the opposite from what I have ever observed.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Come on guys.....you loft it all the way to the carry down to control the entire lane!! :rolleyes::)

[AlexNC]

Come on guys.....you loft it all the way to the carry down to control the entire lane!! :rolleyes::)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_aIxTSUGgA1s/R087fzDWBEI/AAAAAAAAAVA/5pqprGfUS4g/s400/Smith+Robert.jpg

[NewToBowling]

I usually loft it to the break point :)

[JasonNJ]

I usually loft it to the break point :)

If I'm lofting that far, I usually take out my cannon and shoot directly at the pin. :p

[Aslan]

Thanks for the lengthy and insightful response after making a post such as yours. See, I also would like to know how loft helps with carry down seeing how conventional wisdom has those things contradicting one another.

I used to think the further you loft it, the later it will hook. But it greatly depends on HOW you loft it. There is GOOD LOFT and BAD LOFT.

Mika = good loft. It is a loft that simply projects the ball further down the lane without hitting UP on the ball quite so much. This loft can and will usually delay the hook since the ball isn't spending as much time interacting with the lanes (a ball can't hook in the air).

"Bad" loft is more like the urethane era....where you are hitting UP on the ball...coming up the side of the ball. This loft looks more like a catapult versus a cannon. Yes, the ball hook is delayed by the ball lofting out further on the lane...but because you are also hitting more up on the ball...it causes the ball to have greater axis rotation and potentially more rpms...which would lead it to hook earlier.

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: Good loft hooks later. Bad loft hooks earlier.

[fortheloveofbowling]

I used to think the further you loft it, the later it will hook. But it greatly depends on HOW you loft it. There is GOOD LOFT and BAD LOFT.

Mika = good loft. It is a loft that simply projects the ball further down the lane without hitting UP on the ball quite so much. This loft can and will usually delay the hook since the ball isn't spending as much time interacting with the lanes (a ball can't hook in the air).

"Bad" loft is more like the urethane era....where you are hitting UP on the ball...coming up the side of the ball. This loft looks more like a catapult versus a cannon. Yes, the ball hook is delayed by the ball lofting out further on the lane...but because you are also hitting more up on the ball...it causes the ball to have greater axis rotation and potentially more rpms...which would lead it to hook earlier.

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: Good loft hooks later. Bad loft hooks earlier.

You may be missing the point of lofting the ball. This is done so the ball will have energy retention and motion at the back of the lane. The loft is done to avoid the burnt fronts so the ball does not burn up and lessen the back end motion. As far as mika goes that was just his normal release because of growing up on very lightly conditioned lanes and having to eliminate the fronts.

[Aslan]

You may be missing the point of lofting the ball. This is done so the ball will have energy retention and motion at the back of the lane. The loft is done to avoid the burnt fronts so the ball does not burn up and lessen the back end motion. As far as mika goes that was just his normal release because of growing up on very lightly conditioned lanes.

I was trying to differentiate between the two lofting styles. One is simply a standard release that "lofts" the ball further out but still in a straight line. Other forms of loft are more "up and down" like a bell curve. That form gets the ball further out onto the lane...but because it's usually at a lower speed, with more axis rotation, and an up the side release....you're actually more likely to have a ball that hooks earlier than hooks later.

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: Loft outward = good. Loft upwards = bad.

[fortheloveofbowling]

I was trying to differentiate between the two lofting styles. One is simply a standard release that "lofts" the ball further out but still in a straight line. Other forms of loft are more "up and down" like a bell curve. That form gets the ball further out onto the lane...but because it's usually at a lower speed, with more axis rotation, and an up the side release....you're actually more likely to have a ball that hooks earlier than hooks later.

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: Loft outward = good. Loft upwards = bad.

A up the side release is going to delay back end motion anyway. If you loft it and spin it that really is going to go long.

[Mike White]

I was trying to differentiate between the two lofting styles. One is simply a standard release that "lofts" the ball further out but still in a straight line. Other forms of loft are more "up and down" like a bell curve. That form gets the ball further out onto the lane...but because it's usually at a lower speed, with more axis rotation, and an up the side release....you're actually more likely to have a ball that hooks earlier than hooks later.

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: Loft outward = good. Loft upwards = bad.

With modern balls loft itself doesn't delay the hook.

It's just about avoiding dry parts of the heads (or the gutter) that would make the ball hook too early.

If there are no dry parts to avoid, loft, and non loft still hooks at the same distance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta_NyYeQtUc

This ball hooks as it exits the pattern, even after being lofted 30 down the lane.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Now back in the old days lofting was used more often to delay hook. We did not have equipment then to chase the oil in to 4th and 5th arrow and hit half pocket and carve out tens like today. Then it was used to keep the ball from hooking to early and now it is used for that and help the back end motion.

[Mike White]

Now back in the old days lofting was used more often to delay hook. We did not have equipment then to chase the oil in to 4th and 5th arrow and hit half pocket and carve out tens like today. Then it was used to keep the ball from hooking to early and now it is used for that and help the back end motion.

Back before synthetic lanes, and resin balls, if the heads started hooking, it wasn't because the ball was picking up too much oil, but the lane finish was cracking due to the pounding it received and the oil was soaking down into the wood.

[fordman1]

Is the loft or the three bounces after the loft?:rolleyes:

Who is right me or the guy who said I was uninformed? I forgot the question now.

[Mike White]

Is the loft or the three bounces after the loft?:rolleyes:

Who is right me or the guy who said I was uninformed? I forgot the question now.

Lofting is an adjustment for a problem with the front of the lane, not the back of the lane.

So which ever of you said lofting solved the carry down problem was "uninformed"

[Aslan]

Is the loft or the three bounces after the loft?:rolleyes:

Who is right me or the guy who said I was uninformed? I forgot the question now.

I agree. This argument got waaay too dorky and now I can't remember what we were even talking about.

[fordman1]

Not the lofting the carry down. Do crankers and their reactive cause carry down or newbys and their house plastic and rubber?


Lofting is an adjustment for a problem with the front of the lane, not the back of the lane.

So which ever of you said lofting solved the carry down problem was "uninformed"

[Mike White]

Not the lofting the carry down. Do crankers and their reactive cause carry down or newbys and their house plastic and rubber?

Crankers aren't more or less guilty with reactive resin balls.

The track flare causes the part of the ball that picked up oil on previous revolutions to not contact the lane on the next revolution. (with the exception of the bow tie areas)

rubber/plastic/urethane tend not to flare so they both pick up some oil (not as much as reactive), and redeposit some of the oil where there wasn't any originally. (the back ends)

[fordman1]

I was always told the new stuff sucked up the oil and the old stuff pushed it down the lane. CARRY DOWN. meaning oil farther down the lane. Ball hooking too late.

[Mike White]

I was always told the new stuff sucked up the oil and the old stuff pushed it down the lane. CARRY DOWN. meaning oil farther down the lane. Ball hooking too late.

The new stuff absorbs oil, but most of the absorption occurs after the ball is back on the ball return.

Evidence of that is the ability to see the initial oil ring on the ball when the ball comes back, so you can determine your PAP .

The new stuff picks more oil off of the lane because track flare exposes more dry surface of the ball to the lane.

When a dry part of the ball goes over an oily part of the lane, some of the oil is transferred from the lane to the ball.

Carry down is when an oily part of the ball goes over a dry part of the lane, some of the oil is transferred from the ball to the lane.

It's like when the street crew has freshly painted a cross walk, and someone drives over it before the paint has dried.

Paint transfers from the street, to the tire, and then from the tire back to the street on the next revolution of the tire.

Track flare tries to keep the oil that has been transferred from the lane to the ball from making contact with the dry part of the lane, so it reduces the amount of transfer back to the lane.

[fordman1]

Very well put. So when for the one time in a year when we bowl the drunk team with plastic balls throwing down the middle we will get carry down. Like in the 70 and 80's. And when we bowl most of the other teams with reactive balls the carry down won't be much of a problem?

[bobforsaken]

Very well put. So when for the one time in a year when we bowl the drunk team with plastic balls throwing down the middle we will get carry down. Like in the 70 and 80's. And when we bowl most of the other teams with reactive balls the carry down won't be much of a problem?

I JUST made that connection in my league. I always seem to bowl poorly when we face the teams with lower averages. I never made the connection that they are using plastic balls right down the middle of the lane causing carry down.. I'm a little slow.. I know.


Now the question is, how best to battle this? since the outsides are still breaking down but the middle is getting carry down. its causing a wet->Dry-Wet path for the ball resulting in carry issues. Move to a more skid snap reaction? Move breakpoint more outside? Keep things tighter.. move breakpoint in... ball up?

Suggestions?

[mc_runner]

Personally I'd move to something with more surface to try to cut through the mid/carry down.

[Amyers]

Personally I'd move to something with more surface to try to cut through the mid/carry down.

Winner, Winner Chicken Dinner +1

[billf]

I JUST made that connection in my league. I always seem to bowl poorly when we face the teams with lower averages. I never made the connection that they are using plastic balls right down the middle of the lane causing carry down.. I'm a little slow.. I know.


Now the question is, how best to battle this? since the outsides are still breaking down but the middle is getting carry down. its causing a wet->Dry-Wet path for the ball resulting in carry issues. Move to a more skid snap reaction? Move breakpoint more outside? Keep things tighter.. move breakpoint in... ball up?

Suggestions?

That's not as easy to answer because not all plastic, straight bowlers are the same either. Some can keep their ball within 5 boards consistently while others take out a 10 pin trying for a strike. Depending on which I face I either try a strong Pearl (or polish a solid) way outside or move inside of them with a ball with surface (2000 or less).