How much coaching is needed

[NYMIKE]

My first league season I did not seek coaching, and averaged 123, I had some good night but some nights I was brutal, but I'd say I made no improvement. I enjoy bowling a great deal, so that average was not enough for me, I met a coach, he put me on classic 4 step, pendulum clock, handshake, and after 12 lesson and about 3 months, I became a 145-150 bowler. I haven't seen my coach since august and perhaps I'm plateauing, does this mean that the only way I'll get better is through seeing a coach?

[ep1977]

You can learn some great tips on the internet and practice them on your own with out a coach. If this doesn't help your average at all but the coach does than you have your answer.

[Tony]

You can certainly attain a higher average on your own and many bowlers have never taken a lesson. You might get a little better or you might become a 200 plus average bowler on your own. The difference is in how much natural talent and athletic skill you have.
You can / will always get some random advice or coaching, it might be very good or not so good depending on the person. The advantage with coaching is you get someone who has been trained on teaching the correct forms and techniques so you will stay on track and raise your average faster and stop bad habits earlier.
If you want to do the best you possible can in the shortest time, coaching will help, if you're content with going out and having fun while averaging 140 or 150 coaching might not be money well spent. That's my take on it anyway.
(since you are here it would suggest you aren't content with just having fun, you want to score well too)

I misread your coaching / thought you said 3 lessons over 12 months. As other have suggested that's quite a lot of coaching already. I would probably go with the suggestion to post some video here and let some of the coaches look at it.

[foreverincamo]

Tiger Woods still has a swing coach. I'm pushing 50 and get coaching a couple times a month. I'm averaging 206, 10 pins higher than last year. Get all the coaching you can.

[djp1080]

What is key to improving your bowling techniques is to identify bowling techniques to improve upon from where you're at. You'll likely need someone to take videos of your technique and then determine from what you see what issues require your focus to improve. Likely there are people on this forum who can view a posting of those videos and you can improve that way; however, you'll not be getting on site immediate coaching which you get during a lesson.
How much coaching is needed depends upon your desire to improve. Even the best professional bowlers have coaches as an example. Good luck!

[scottymoney]

My first league season I did not seek coaching, and averaged 123, I had some good night but some nights I was brutal, but I'd say I made no improvement. I enjoy bowling a great deal, so that average was not enough for me, I met a coach, he put me on classic 4 step, pendulum clock, handshake, and after 12 lesson and about 3 months, I became a 145-150 bowler. I haven't seen my coach since august and perhaps I'm plateauing, does this mean that the only way I'll get better is through seeing a coach?

Even though you have seen a little progress I would honestly seek another coach to see if someone else can offer you something better for you. I say this because the "handshake" is a very old school way of thinking and in the modern game it is a bit frowned upon. I also say to find a new coach for the reason of 20-30 pins a game is only a couple marks a game more. Basically making your spare in 2 frames gets you to 145. I wouldn't see this as a huge improvement especially after 12 lessons.

This is nothing against you, and I have never seen you bowl. This is just an honest assessment from the information you provided. I would try a new coach and see what happens. NYMIKE where are you located. I am also in NY just near Buffalo. I would be happy to work with you if you are in this area. If not maybe some other members near you can find you someone to work with.

[billf]

12 lessons in 3 months is too much for most people. I don't know how often you work on what was covered or your progress in mastering what was covered so take it with a grain of salt.
That being said I do have high school and college bowlers I work with on a weekly basis. That doesn't mean we introduce new things weekly. Often I will just record the session and show them the progress or lack of before going on to the next phase. Here is where I differ and catch a lot of flack from other coaches: I only charge when something new is introduced and not for the progress check sessions.
If you want some things to look for on your own or even to help you devise which questions to ask of your coach Mark Baker's The System DVD would be worth the investment. Joe Slowinski also has some great information on his website www.bowlingknowledge.info
Clinics held near you may also prove beneficial.

[fokai73]

I bet....if you go practice and not shoot for strikes, rather try hitting the corner pins and other spare leaves, your average will jump 20 to 30 pins. The key for you right now, is to work on what you've learned and do your best trying not to leave open frames. If you fill frames more often, your average will increase.

I was 155-160 average for two seasons. then a coach gave me this tip that I'm giving you right now....long story short, the next season I was 194 average.

My mind set every time I bowl was to fill frames. STRIKES are bonus, SPARES are money. Strike for show, spare for doe!!!!

I must add...He showed me a spare system, the 4th arrow system, which I worked on over the summer.

[JasonNJ]

Getting a new coach may help because 12 lessons in 3 months sounds like a lot to me. Although I've never seen you bowl, I would think after 12 lessons you have the basis on being a pretty good bowler. My guess is the thing for you to work on is to be able to be consistent with your mechanics and to be able to repeat shots. I would say have someone video tape you from the back and side and focus on finding 2 or 3 key things that allow you to be consistent with your release. Like for me, the push away and my 2 steps before my slide are big keys for me. If I don't fully push away and extend my arm to allow the pendulum effect to happen I tend to chicken wing my shot. Or my 2 steps before my slide I get too quick and my swing is late.

[NYMIKE]

Even though you have seen a little progress I would honestly seek another coach to see if someone else can offer you something better for you. I say this because the "handshake" is a very old school way of thinking and in the modern game it is a bit frowned upon. I also say to find a new coach for the reason of 20-30 pins a game is only a couple marks a game more. Basically making your spare in 2 frames gets you to 145. I wouldn't see this as a huge improvement especially after 12 lessons.

This is nothing against you, and I have never seen you bowl. This is just an honest assessment from the information you provided. I would try a new coach and see what happens. NYMIKE where are you located. I am also in NY just near Buffalo. I would be happy to work with you if you are in this area. If not maybe some other members near you can find you someone to work with.

I'm in Queens. The coach I'm using was recommended by the AMF desk guy, he trained many here. At my other alley, I was recommended to use a PBA pro. He charges $50 an hour, I don't know any other coaches.

[Tony]

I'm in Queens. The coach I'm using was recommended by the AMF desk guy, he trained many here. At my other alley, I was recommended to use a PBA pro. He charges $50 an hour, I don't know any other coaches.

Here is a link to coaches if it let's me paste : http://www.bowlny.com/find_a_coach.php

[JasonNJ]

I'm in Queens. The coach I'm using was recommended by the AMF desk guy, he trained many here. At my other alley, I was recommended to use a PBA pro. He charges $50 an hour, I don't know any other coaches.

When I was younger and just a casual bowler, I bowled in Queens a few time. The 2 bowling alleys I remember at Jib Lanes and 34th Lanes. I think they are both still around.


Anyway, there are so many videos on YouTube that you can watch that have been really helpful for me. One of my favorite one is Norm Duke and his Next Level bowling videos. Also USBC Bowling Academy has some pretty good videos. They have a subscription site which is $34.99 for the whole year although a lot of the videos from the site is already on YouTube.


But if you really want live coaching you could try this. http://www.bowl.com/findacoach/

[AlexNC]

Re: the USBC Academy videos...if you sign up for their email list they will send offers for discounts on the subscription. I was fortunate to get the subscription for 9.99 for the whole year. They have a huge library of videos targetted to various skill levels. Well worth the money.

[Amyers]

12 lessons over 3 months is not insane that's about once a week. I've personally never had a coach (can't find a qualified one in my area) but my daughter has they work together every 3 or 4 weeks. It gives her time to work on what the coach has imparted. Watching online videos and recording yourself is helpful but I can't believe it's anywhere near as beneficial as a real live experienced coach watching you.

[GeoLes]

Another coaching session can help. Ask for checkpoints in your game to focus on. Ask for drills that will help you focus on that part of your game to form good habits. You can also go to sources like Slowinski or Kegel for isolation drills.

When you bowl for practice, don't just bowl, practice deliberately. Identify one or two areas of practice for that session. For me that makes up 80% of practice session time. The last 20% is for integration of what you practiced. Just bowl and note how you have integrated what you just practiced, not just on how well you score.

[Aslan]

You can certainly attain a higher average on your own and many bowlers have never taken a lesson. You might get a little better or you might become a 200 plus average bowler on your own. The difference is in how much natural talent and athletic skill you have.
You can / will always get some random advice or coaching, it might be very good or not so good depending on the person. The advantage with coaching is you get someone who has been trained on teaching the correct forms and techniques so you will stay on track and raise your average faster and stop bad habits earlier.
If you want to do the best you possible can in the shortest time, coaching will help, if you're content with going out and having fun while averaging 140 or 150 coaching might not be money well spent. That's my take on it anyway.
(since you are here it would suggest you aren't content with just having fun, you want to score well too)

I misread your coaching / thought you said 3 lessons over 12 months. As other have suggested that's quite a lot of coaching already. I would probably go with the suggestion to post some video here and let some of the coaches look at it.

Tony is spot on. Like I've said many, many times...bowling success is just like dating...it's all about your expectations. Most bowlers (WAY more than 90%) are perfectly fine bowling around 150-160, handicap leagues, beer drinking leagues, no-tap tourneys, and an occasional 200+ game to validate their efforts. Mark Baker once told me that he sees relatively few bowlers that average in the 140-160 range because they get to that level where they bowl a 200 game each week or an occasional 600 series and think, "I guess I've figured this game out...I just need to repeat what I did when I rolled that high score (whatever that was)". Horrible bowlers know they are horrible and if they want to change that they have no choice but to seek out coaching. Good bowlers know that they aren't actually that good and require help (coaching) to get better.

So;
#1: What are you expectations concerning bowling? What are your goals? What are your dreams? What are you willing to do to achieve those goals/dreams?

There's NOTHING wrong with just wanting to bowl for fun and get an occasional 200 game. I'd quit bowling if that was my fate...but others would consider that perfectly fine and meet their expectations.

I DISAGREE with the folks that think you can get significantly better without coaching. There are SO many moving parts to bowling....and SO many things that you are currently doing incorrectly (without even seeing you bowl)...that trying to watch videos and emulate players and take random advice....you're going to end up taking a very slow and painful path towards mediocracy. A coach is valuable, especially in bowling, because you're seeing the same person over and over and they are seeing you progress and keeping you on track and keeping you focused on certain things while not letting/encouraging you to get distracted with other bowling-related things that would take you off track.

And I can say that without second guessing because I actually tried that approach. I get advice from anyone and everyone...I searched out videos...I tried emulating this player or that player...I read books...I did it ALL. And I would never have broken 175 using that approach indefinitely. I could have gotten to the low 170s on my own...but that's about it. Coaching fixed a LOT of things that I was doing that I didn't even know I was doing. And it kept me focused on things like timing, stance, approach...rather than me focusing all my effort on release or ball technology.

Now...12 lessons in 3 months is nutty. For one simple reason...you need to space out your lessons to give you ample time to practice what you learn and apply it to league situations. If you are getting a lesson, bowl once, then get another lesson...obviously you're not going to have had time to really master what you learned the week before.

I suggest finding the highest level coach you can...I'd recommend a PBA Pro (National Tour, PWBA, or PBA50, not necessarily a regional pro because that could be hit or miss) OR if one is not available (which would be shocking given you're in New York/East Coast)...try to find at LEAST a silver level USBC coach. Bronze level is hit or miss. Bowling has an interesting tiered coaching system because each level is monumentally harder to get than the previous level. So, junior coaching certification...simple. Take a 4-hour class, get cleared to work with kids, take a basic bowling test and you're done. Bronze is a bit harder, but relatively easy and cost effective. Silver takes much more time and energy and money. Gold is virtually impossible. Unfortunately, that leads to an environment where there are virtually no Gold level coaches, finding a silver level coach is difficult, and finding a bronze level coach is very easy.

I'd THEN recommend a bi-weekly, tri-weekly, or monthly appointment with that coach.

That's my 12 cents.

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: Apparently someone doesn't have The Gift?

[billf]

The difference between and Silver and Gold coach: Gold requires to demonstrate the ability to run a pro shop and bowling center. It's suppose to be the PhD of coaching but there are no seminars or clinics to obtain this level. You go in front of a board of Gold coaches in Arlington, answer questions, give three lessons, fit and drill a ball with them watching. All for the current low, low proce of $800 plus transportation and lodging. That folks is why there is less than 30 Gold coaches worldwide.
I want to coach period. I have zero desire to run a center. I don't work in a pro shop so I will also have to attend a certified pro shop course (Turbo, Jayhawk, Powerhouse) adding an additional few grand to my total. I received the Gold workbork when I applied and became a Gold coach candidate. Very disappointed with the criteria personally.

[NYMIKE]

When I was younger and just a casual bowler, I bowled in Queens a few time. The 2 bowling alleys I remember at Jib Lanes and 34th Lanes. I think they are both still around.


Anyway, there are so many videos on YouTube that you can watch that have been really helpful for me. One of my favorite one is Norm Duke and his Next Level bowling videos. Also USBC Bowling Academy has some pretty good videos. They have a subscription site which is $34.99 for the whole year although a lot of the videos from the site is already on YouTube.


But if you really want live coaching you could try this. http://www.bowl.com/findacoach/

34th Avenue is still there, it's now owned by AMF, I bowl over there. I also bowl in Astoria Lanes. Jib is running, never been there, we also have Whitestone (24 hrs, bowled there once in the late 90s) and an alley on Rockaway Blvd, never bowled there, that's Queens.

[NYMIKE]

Tony is spot on. Like I've said many, many times...bowling success is just like dating...it's all about your expectations. Most bowlers (WAY more than 90%) are perfectly fine bowling around 150-160, handicap leagues, beer drinking leagues, no-tap tourneys, and an occasional 200+ game to validate their efforts. Mark Baker once told me that he sees relatively few bowlers that average in the 140-160 range because they get to that level where they bowl a 200 game each week or an occasional 600 series and think, "I guess I've figured this game out...I just need to repeat what I did when I rolled that high score (whatever that was)". Horrible bowlers know they are horrible and if they want to change that they have no choice but to seek out coaching. Good bowlers know that they aren't actually that good and require help (coaching) to get better.

So;
#1: What are you expectations concerning bowling? What are your goals? What are your dreams? What are you willing to do to achieve those goals/dreams?

There's NOTHING wrong with just wanting to bowl for fun and get an occasional 200 game. I'd quit bowling if that was my fate...but others would consider that perfectly fine and meet their expectations.

I DISAGREE with the folks that think you can get significantly better without coaching. There are SO many moving parts to bowling....and SO many things that you are currently doing incorrectly (without even seeing you bowl)...that trying to watch videos and emulate players and take random advice....you're going to end up taking a very slow and painful path towards mediocracy. A coach is valuable, especially in bowling, because you're seeing the same person over and over and they are seeing you progress and keeping you on track and keeping you focused on certain things while not letting/encouraging you to get distracted with other bowling-related things that would take you off track.

And I can say that without second guessing because I actually tried that approach. I get advice from anyone and everyone...I searched out videos...I tried emulating this player or that player...I read books...I did it ALL. And I would never have broken 175 using that approach indefinitely. I could have gotten to the low 170s on my own...but that's about it. Coaching fixed a LOT of things that I was doing that I didn't even know I was doing. And it kept me focused on things like timing, stance, approach...rather than me focusing all my effort on release or ball technology.

Now...12 lessons in 3 months is nutty. For one simple reason...you need to space out your lessons to give you ample time to practice what you learn and apply it to league situations. If you are getting a lesson, bowl once, then get another lesson...obviously you're not going to have had time to really master what you learned the week before.

I suggest finding the highest level coach you can...I'd recommend a PBA Pro (National Tour, PWBA, or PBA50, not necessarily a regional pro because that could be hit or miss) OR if one is not available (which would be shocking given you're in New York/East Coast)...try to find at LEAST a silver level USBC coach. Bronze level is hit or miss. Bowling has an interesting tiered coaching system because each level is monumentally harder to get than the previous level. So, junior coaching certification...simple. Take a 4-hour class, get cleared to work with kids, take a basic bowling test and you're done. Bronze is a bit harder, but relatively easy and cost effective. Silver takes much more time and energy and money. Gold is virtually impossible. Unfortunately, that leads to an environment where there are virtually no Gold level coaches, finding a silver level coach is difficult, and finding a bronze level coach is very easy.

I'd THEN recommend a bi-weekly, tri-weekly, or monthly appointment with that coach.

That's my 12 cents.

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: Apparently someone doesn't have The Gift?

My expectations and desires are be much better than 160 bowler, for about a 2 week stretch I was a 160 bowler than slipped, is 200 realistic? When I began lifting I read that anyone training can achieve a 300 lb bench 400 lb squat 500 lb deadlift drug free. It took me 17 years to bench 300. Not sure if 200 average is realistic, but I have 15 games of 200, so why not?

[Aslan]

That folks is why there is less than 30 Gold coaches worldwide.


That is what I was getting at. I like the USBC's system of levels and differentiating. I think without the levels...it's hard for the average student to differentiate and it's hard for better coaches to charge more. BUT...by making bronze worthless and Gold impossible or too much effort/expense to get for what you get out of it...it makes the levels less meaningful and less informative.

Based on my experiences, I'd recommend a system that takes into account the many elements of modern bowling and makes the levels more meaningful. For example:

BRONZE: Any bowler that;
- Takes the USBC Bronze level class
- Holds a PBA card and has cashed in at least one event in the past 3 years OR;
- Holds a degree (associates or higher) in education.

SILVER: Any bowler that;
- Attains Bronze level certification at any time during their lifetime.
- Holds a PBA card and has cashed in at least three events in the past 9 years
- Passes the Silver level certification class*.

* Those with a degree in education would take a 2-day class. Those without a degree in education would take a 3-4 day class.

GOLD Level certification: Any bowler that;
- holds a SILVER certification AND;
- has won at least one Major title (PBA, PWBA, PBA50, USBC Open/Masters, WBTA champion).
- passes the Gold certification class.

And an important element of silver and gold classes would be ball specifications, ball drilling, ball technology, etc... as well as a thorough understanding of patterns, lane conditions, and a general understanding of how the various bowling equipment (ball returns, oil machines, scoring systems, pinsetters, etc...) works.

I think a system like that addresses a lot of the problems with our current system; specifically it combines the 3 necessary elements of a good bowling coach (in no particular order):

- Success and demonstrated bowling ability
- An understanding of education and HOW to teach various age groups
- An understanding of how technology plays a crucial part in the modern game

I think too many coaches nowadays lack those last two elements. There are a LOT of bronze coaches that bowl well...but they don't know how to "teach" and they can't really explain differences in balls like coverstocks, core dynamics, drilling layouts, etc... And that's FINE. But there should be levels above Bronze where you pay a little more and get a coach that you KNOW (by nature of their certification) that they have an education background and you know that they've reached a very high level in the sport in terms of performance AND have at least a solid understanding of modern equipment.

Thoughts?

[RobLV1]

It would be interesting to see how many of those Gold Level Coaches meet your PBA/Tournament winning status. I'm guessing not many, just as many very well-known PBA "stars" know virtually nothing about bowling balls; which is why the ball reps see so much action at PBA events. As I've said many times in the past, Butch Harmon, Hank Haney, and Sean Foley have TWO things in common: they've all coached Tiger Woods, AND none of them has ever had his name on a PGA Leaderboard.

[fokai73]

There are "paper coaches" who shouldn't be coaching. The color level, or status on tour doesn't always equal a good coach.

I've had guys with an "eye" for the game help me and others through the years. Also, I've seen top coaches in the industry who are very good at their craft. But, only one "high level, HOF coach" made me waste my time and money seeing this coach. And it was a one on one session - I never go to group lessons. I've had better lessons in the past by "joe bowler."

But coaches like Bakes and MJ at lane 81, you should try seeing them at least once in your bowling life.

[Tony]

That is what I was getting at. I like the USBC's system of levels and differentiating. I think without the levels...it's hard for the average student to differentiate and it's hard for better coaches to charge more. BUT...by making bronze worthless and Gold impossible or too much effort/expense to get for what you get out of it...it makes the levels less meaningful and less informative.

Based on my experiences, I'd recommend a system that takes into account the many elements of modern bowling and makes the levels more meaningful. For example:

BRONZE: Any bowler that;
- Takes the USBC Bronze level class
- Holds a PBA card and has cashed in at least one event in the past 3 years OR;
- Holds a degree (associates or higher) in education.

SILVER: Any bowler that;
- Attains Bronze level certification at any time during their lifetime.
- Holds a PBA card and has cashed in at least three events in the past 9 years
- Passes the Silver level certification class*.

* Those with a degree in education would take a 2-day class. Those without a degree in education would take a 3-4 day class.

GOLD Level certification: Any bowler that;
- holds a SILVER certification AND;
- has won at least one Major title (PBA, PWBA, PBA50, USBC Open/Masters, WBTA champion).
- passes the Gold certification class.

And an important element of silver and gold classes would be ball specifications, ball drilling, ball technology, etc... as well as a thorough understanding of patterns, lane conditions, and a general understanding of how the various bowling equipment (ball returns, oil machines, scoring systems, pinsetters, etc...) works.

I think a system like that addresses a lot of the problems with our current system; specifically it combines the 3 necessary elements of a good bowling coach (in no particular order):

- Success and demonstrated bowling ability
- An understanding of education and HOW to teach various age groups
- An understanding of how technology plays a crucial part in the modern game

I think too many coaches nowadays lack those last two elements. There are a LOT of bronze coaches that bowl well...but they don't know how to "teach" and they can't really explain differences in balls like coverstocks, core dynamics, drilling layouts, etc... And that's FINE. But there should be levels above Bronze where you pay a little more and get a coach that you KNOW (by nature of their certification) that they have an education background and you know that they've reached a very high level in the sport in terms of performance AND have at least a solid understanding of modern equipment.

Thoughts?

I honestly don't know what the current qualifications are but i will say that being a top player at any sport does not make a top coach, some people just have the ability to teach and motivate where others do not. It would be nice to find top performers that are also students of the game and possess the skills to transfer that knowledge to others, but I'm afraid making that a requirement would result in few people that would qualify. I think it works that way with many skills, being able to examine what someone else is doing and show them the correct strategy to correct it doesn't really require that you are able to do that exact same thing at that skill level.
I know a fair amount of good bowlers, lets say guys that regularly throw 300 games and maintain a high average, and I have the good fortune of knowing one Gold level coach, I can honestly tell you that nearly every single one of those guys have sought the advice of this coach and he has been able to give them instruction that have helped their game. Even a guy with more than 100 300 games told me that he was glad to have a resource like the coach to help him out.

Just think of how many mediocre players have been winning coaches in professional sports and how many mega talented players can't coach worth a damn.

[Aslan]

It would be interesting to see how many of those Gold Level Coaches meet your PBA/Tournament winning status. I'm guessing not many, just as many very well-known PBA "stars" know virtually nothing about bowling balls; which is why the ball reps see so much action at PBA events. As I've said many times in the past, Butch Harmon, Hank Haney, and Sean Foley have TWO things in common: they've all coached Tiger Woods, AND none of them has ever had his name on a PGA Leaderboard.

You guys are focusing too much on the "titles" side. I thought the beauty of it was that you could become a silver level coach by being an average bowler who knew how to educate kids/people OR you could get to silver with a great deal of talent and less teaching/coaching/education experience. It's only the GOLD level where suddenly you need some more of both. But I compared it to the CURRENT system...and there's what, 20-30 gold coaches? So I figured if they're scarce now...this system wouldn't make them "more" scarce. Would it??

And thats why I left the title qualification only "cashing" and only at the very lowest/regional level. How many PBA cardholder this year have cashed in at least 1 event? How many have cashed in 3? Remember...it's not "win" or make match play or make the stepladder finals. It's simply "cashing". I also think it would increase interest in regional tournaments because if you have a bowler that is really good, maybe buys a pro shop, maybe thinks about coaching...now he has to be "good enough" to cash in an event. He could finish 94th and win $20 and BAMM...that meets the requirement. He could finish 74th 3 times and that meets Silver.

However...there would need to be some type of age clause put in. Something like you can waive the cashing requirement if you're older than 55 and can show that you've been active in at least 2 sanctioned leagues for the past 10 years. Because otherwise, you might have a bowler that takes up coaching as a senior and could be limited physically by injury or illness.

And why am I creating criteria and clauses for something that is never going to be anything?? I think I'm anxious about the tournament tomorrow. And a girl is setting up a date with me for next weekend so I need to do some emergency dieting/push ups/sit ups to get myself in dating condition by then...not to mention eating absolutely nothing. Just rice cakes and granola bars. They better not have an awesome snack bar at the bowling alley where the tournament is. That'll be torture. :(

[fortheloveofbowling]

There are a handful of gold coaches men and women with national titles. But probably the best and some of the most influential coaches don't. These include: Rod Ross, Fred Borden, Gordon Vadakin, and Lou Marquez. These coaching greats never even entered the program: Dick Ritger, John Jowdy, Tom Kouros, Bill Taylor. These 4 are some of the most renowned coaches EVER.

[AlexNC]

I am a music educator and have been fascinated by the parallels between music instruction vs learning in a sport like bowling. So many of the same concepts apply when it comes to advancing in either. I can also say that some of the most talanted musicians I have encountered have been **** poor teachers. Sometimes they lack the communication skills to get their thoughts across or they just don't have patience. I have also encountered people who aren't the strongest performers, but they are excellent teachers. That's not to say I have met bad musicians who made great teachers, just separating the performance aspect.

[Tony]

You guys are focusing too much on the "titles" side. I thought the beauty of it was that you could become a silver level coach by being an average bowler who knew how to educate kids/people OR you could get to silver with a great deal of talent and less teaching/coaching/education experience. It's only the GOLD level where suddenly you need some more of both. But I compared it to the CURRENT system...and there's what, 20-30 gold coaches? So I figured if they're scarce now...this system wouldn't make them "more" scarce. Would it??

However...there would need to be some type of age clause put in. Something like you can waive the cashing requirement if you're older than 55 and can show that you've been active in at least 2 sanctioned leagues for the past 10 years. Because otherwise, you might have a bowler that takes up coaching as a senior and could be limited physically by injury or illness.
(

The ability to win titles as a player has no direct bearing on ability as a coach, it's a fact some of the best coaches in sports were not top level professional players and some coached until they were quite old, why can't you coach if you're older or limited physically. Bowling is largely a mental game anyway.

Look at Bear Bryant, never played beyond college ball, became one of the top coaches in college football, coached his last game a month before he died at 70. He died over 30 years ago and was at one time the all time NCAA Division I wins leader, I think he is still in the top 5 to this day. He had the ability to instruct, motivate and create winning players and teams and those skills had little to do with his ability to play the game as an individual.

If I remember correctly wasn't there 50 or 60 Gold coaches a few years ago and the number dropped because of the new renewal procedure that required coaches to pay a sizable fee to get renewed or something like that ?

[billf]

First, I do fix all the machines at our center BUT what the hell does that have to do with coaching? Does knowing how to repair the ball return make anybody a better coach? NO!!!
Would me teaching that to a bowler help their game? NO!!! So why have that as any part or any level?

Look at all the HOF coaches from any sport. The majority didn't play past college or if pro were only average. Why? Because they lacked the natural talent needed to be the top 1% (pro athlete) yet became average for that 1% by being students of the respective sports, learning every advantage and angle they could because they needed those just to be a mediocre player. There are exceptions but they are exactly that, exceptions and not the rule.

[Amyers]

I don't think I agree with much of this at all.

1. I don't think you need to bowl at the PBA level to be an effective coach. I've worked with former PBA players before does not necessarily make them a good coach. The ability to do something does not translate in to the ability to transfer that knowledge to others. I will say that former PBA bowlers do tend to have a better understanding of oil patterns than a lot of other bowlers.

2. A degree in Education? Really? at Bronze level? This maybe should be a recommendation for Gold level coaches. The ability to understand how to teach adults is important. It's something that some people are never able to develop it's also something that if you can't learn from a week long seminar you probably aren't going to figure it out in the 103 weeks (associates degree) either.

3. I have no idea why you need to understand how a pin setter or ball return works to be a coach at any level.

4. Understanding oil patterns and equipment in general is of importance, having a general understanding of the effects of layout on ball motion would be useful, But I'm not sure that the coach need to replace the ball driller either. If he can great but it wouldn't be a requirement in my opinion.

[Aslan]

I think my proposal(s) are confusing everyone.

I was just saying that if you want to make the Bronze, Silver, Gold certifications more important and relevant....there needs to be changes and I proposed some changes. Everyone seems to hate the idea of requiring anything (education, skill, money, knowledge) to gain a coaching certification...which is FINE...but then you still have the problem that the certification system is meaningless and there's no way to know a "good coach" from a "bad coach" other than random opinion. It also is a system that doesn't encourage coaches to move up the chain because as long as you got the meaningless bronze certification you can simply say, "Oh well...silver and gold aren't worth much and are too expensive anyways."

As a quick defense of what I was proposing:
1) I've been coached by more people at more levels than what, 98% of this site? So...I've probably paid for and experienced MORE coaching in the last 2 years from a greater pool of coaches than anyone else on the site. I even attended the youth coaching seminar put on by the USBC.
2) Coaching is like teaching. You can have all the skill in the world...but if you can't teach...if you don't have the right "bedside manner"...you'll be ineffective. SO...shouldn't there be some type of requirement that coaches learn to "teach"?
3) You can be the best teacher in the entire country...but if you don't know how to bowl and aren't good at it...then your skill level comes into question and your students are going to be less likely to listen to you. Success MEANS something. There are things you learn over decades of perfecting a craft and through the trials and tribulations of actually competing at a high level that MEAN something.

And remember (I read this somewhere last year), the biggest reason a bowler stops listening to a coach is based on their individual success. In other words, if you "coach" someone and it WORKS...and they get BETTER....and they score HIGHER...they WILL listen to you. But no matter your credentials, no matter how "right" you are...if what you teach doesn't translate into success in a VERY SHORT timeframe...they will stop listening to you.

So...I'm not trying to offend any coaches by saying they need to win titles or get a degree in teaching...I was just throwing out some ideas on how to make the levels relevant. So far I haven't heard any other realistic suggestions on how to do that. There's a lot of complaining about the current system requiring too much and being too expensive...but isn't changing that going to just further water down the meaning of the certifications?

And, like my discussion with Rob about bowling ball arsenals in another thread...the question can actually be simplified to: (Mudpuppy Cliff Notes Question): "How do YOU suggest a bowler looking for coaching differentiates between a pro shop owner/experienced bowler that can't coach and has very little skill versus an elite bowling coach that is in the top 10-20% of his/her piers?

[Amyers]

I think my proposal(s) are confusing everyone.

I was just saying that if you want to make the Bronze, Silver, Gold certifications more important and relevant....there needs to be changes and I proposed some changes. Everyone seems to hate the idea of requiring anything (education, skill, money, knowledge) to gain a coaching certification...which is FINE...but then you still have the problem that the certification system is meaningless and there's no way to know a "good coach" from a "bad coach" other than random opinion. It also is a system that doesn't encourage coaches to move up the chain because as long as you got the meaningless bronze certification you can simply say, "Oh well...silver and gold aren't worth much and are too expensive anyways."

As a quick defense of what I was proposing:
1) I've been coached by more people at more levels than what, 98% of this site? So...I've probably paid for and experienced MORE coaching in the last 2 years from a greater pool of coaches than anyone else on the site. I even attended the youth coaching seminar put on by the USBC.
2) Coaching is like teaching. You can have all the skill in the world...but if you can't teach...if you don't have the right "bedside manner"...you'll be ineffective. SO...shouldn't there be some type of requirement that coaches learn to "teach"?
3) You can be the best teacher in the entire country...but if you don't know how to bowl and aren't good at it...then your skill level comes into question and your students are going to be less likely to listen to you. Success MEANS something. There are things you learn over decades of perfecting a craft and through the trials and tribulations of actually competing at a high level that MEAN something.

And remember (I read this somewhere last year), the biggest reason a bowler stops listening to a coach is based on their individual success. In other words, if you "coach" someone and it WORKS...and they get BETTER....and they score HIGHER...they WILL listen to you. But no matter your credentials, no matter how "right" you are...if what you teach doesn't translate into success in a VERY SHORT timeframe...they will stop listening to you.

So...I'm not trying to offend any coaches by saying they need to win titles or get a degree in teaching...I was just throwing out some ideas on how to make the levels relevant. So far I haven't heard any other realistic suggestions on how to do that. There's a lot of complaining about the current system requiring too much and being too expensive...but isn't changing that going to just further water down the meaning of the certifications?

And, like my discussion with Rob about bowling ball arsenals in another thread...the question can actually be simplified to: (Mudpuppy Cliff Notes Question): "How do YOU suggest a bowler looking for coaching differentiates between a pro shop owner/experienced bowler that can't coach and has very little skill versus an elite bowling coach that is in the top 10-20% of his/her piers?

Now that you've thought about it I think we can draw the obvious conclusion of why a quality system is hard to make. How do you effectively judge a persons competency from a distance? The answer is you can't and if you try even on a up close basis your individual biases come in to play. Some of the best coaches/managers in all the major sports never played their sport at a high level.

[NewToBowling]

Now that you've thought about it I think we can draw the obvious conclusion of why a quality system is hard to make. How do you effectively judge a persons competency from a distance? The answer is you can't and if you try even on a up close basis your individual biases come in to play. Some of the best coaches/managers in all the major sports never played their sport at a high level.

I would change that to most

Take any sport and the best coaches/managers have been just your average players. None of the superstars were ever great coaches. Superstars don't worry about x's and o's and practice. They generally have a natural born gift (cue Iceman) and thus never had to worry about much, their natural ability covered up for it mostly

[Amyers]

I would change that to most

Take any sport and the best coaches/managers have been just your average players. None of the superstars were ever great coaches. Superstars don't worry about x's and o's and practice. They generally have a natural born gift (cue Iceman) and thus never had to worry about much, their natural ability covered up for it mostly

This maybe true. I have always wondered if it is this or just the fact that most of them have enough money that working the hours that a coach does just isn't appealing.

[NYMIKE]

It comes down to that there are a lot more mediocre players than star players, therefore that group produces many more excellent coaches.

[Aslan]

I think if you look at most major sports, the reason is a combination of all 3 of your responses.

Star players can rely more on natural talent and may not learn the fundamentals as much. And I think star players have a greater tendency to just retire and enjoy their wealth versus stick around the game as a coach. And I also agree that it's a numbers game so yeah, more mediocre players = more mediocre coaches.

Most of the time I've seen players transition to coaches....it's usually because they weren't able to become star players but wanted to stay active in the game. So they end up retiring and then hanging around as an assistant coach and if they like it and are good at it; try to move up the ranks. But that leads to the saying (which I'm sure teachers hate) which is "Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach." Is it accurate? Not really. I mean, sure, there's SOME truth to it...but there are also people I've known (most of them women) that just always wanted to be a teacher...that's what they enjoy and the career they choose. But if you honestly think the statement doesn't have any truth to it...ask yourself this: "How many young bowlers start bowling competitively with hopes of someday coaching?" The answer, of course, is 0-very, very, very few. Of matter of fact, if bowling was more lucrative ($$$), I honestly don't think most of the PBA/PBA50/PWBA would even bother coaching in their off-time. I think they do that because they need that source of income.

I think it's too bad that bowling doesn't have a better system. We've all seen the USBC teaching videos and we all know a TON of bowlers that would benefit from watching them. It would be awesome to get that knowledge down to the leagues where people could get better. But there's just no way to do that without the USBC essentially certifying coaches. And then you get back into the discussion of what one needs to have to get to the next level.

[billf]

The USBC does certify coaches.
Two season ago, maybe three, they started a CEU (continuing education unit) program. So many people lost active status with no plans to spend the time and money to get or stay active they abandoned it. There are tons of Bronze and Silver coaches who obtained their certification years and years ago who have done NOTHING to stay current in the modern game.

[NewToBowling]

The USBC does certify coaches.
Two season ago, maybe three, they started a CEU (continuing education unit) program. So many people lost active status with no plans to spend the time and money to get or stay active they abandoned it. There are tons of Bronze and Silver coaches who obtained their certification years and years ago who have done NOTHING to stay current in the modern game.

Probably true. I've seen a certain coach coaching others at one of my bowling alleys. Seen him teach them to "reach for the sky" in the follow through. From reading here and around the web in the modern game that is actually discouraged now.

[billf]

Here's the break down according to USBC on the "find a coach" page

Coaching Level Designation:
Level I - Beginner bowlers (all ages and volunteer youth league coaches)
Bronze - Beginner to Intermediate Bowlers (up to 180 average, including High School)
Silver - Intermediate to advanced bowlers (180 or higher average including Collegiate)
Gold - Advanced to elite bowlers (Collegiate and Professionals)

Now we have good coaches and mediocre coaches heck even bad coaches in every sport. Urbana University has Phil Baker (Silver) as the head coach. In the last four years he hasn't shown a single bowler a single thing. He puts down a pattern and tells them the line to play. Two years ago they finished second in the nation. Looks great for his resume. So who helped the bowlers who didn't know more than one hand position? Those bowlers who didn't know how to adjust speed, rotation or tilt? The Silver coach who also happened to work in the same center as three bowlers on that team, me. Phil has a higher average, more 300s and 800s than I do. He is a much better bowler. Yet I will still run circles around him as a coach. He also owns the team's home center so he won't be going anywhere.

Making the levels relevant would require continuing education. So many clinics attended and given, seminars attended and given, on-line training, etc.. Basically all the things the USBC implemented a few years ago and then abandoned when the masses didn't go along with the plan.

[NYMIKE]

I'm observing other bowlers in my league over the passed year. There is a lady in my league she averaged around 90 last year, obviously the lower the average the more room for improvement, she never got any coaching, and guess what she still averages 90, and her mechanics wont allow her to average any more until she gets some coaching, she needs complete overhaul of her delivery. Then we have a husband and wife couple, I became good friends with them, both in the early 50s. Wife came in as a complete novice, she started as a sub 100 bowler, now she is up to 115, and I believe she will continue on getting better, cause she is working with a coach (same coach that I worked with). Her husband bowled in high school, he's been out of action for decades, he used to start really far back on the approach and I marveled that he was throwing 19 miles per hour, but his ball had no revs on it whatsoever, the coach at first made him come to the same distance I start at, last week he shortened his approach to a ridiculously short approach, and he posted a career high 227 game, at 14 mph his ball turns a lot more. Point of this, bowlers that get coaching get better, those that don't stay the same and get discouraged.

[billf]

Point of this, bowlers that get coaching get better, those that don't stay the same and get discouraged.

I will disagree with this to a point. The point that if a bowler will do things outside of getting a coach to get better, they will. Things as internet search for information, drills, etc.. Now they will get better at a slower pace than if they had a good coach.

Just wanting to get better isn't enough. You have to want it and be willing to put in the work to make it a reality.

[NYMIKE]

6 games today for $10, plus almost a full game to shoot 7s and 10s, 159.67 average nothing under 140, my passed 4 outing my average slightly is going up without coaching, I attribute it to practicing shooting 7s like some of you suggested in this thread.