Pre-bowling

[Sourtower]

So my wife and I are in a Friday night mixed league and my wife originally thought her cousin would be in town this weekend. She had made plans for us to go out to dinner with her on Friday night instead of bowling in our league. We pre-bowled on Sunday thinking that the plans were still going to happen. My wife got a call this morning saying that her cousin got her dates mixed up and she won't be in town until next month. Would it be ok from your perspective to show up to league tomorrow and say we wanted to bowl and not use our pre-bowl scores? My wife did really well (40 pins over average) but she is finally starting to love bowling as much as I do and wants to bowl in league. What do you all think? We're only allowed 8 pre-bowls and we want to save them just in case an emergency or something comes up.

[Amyers]

I'm not a rules expert but I don't see why this would be a problem.

[Mike White]

So my wife and I are in a Friday night mixed league and my wife originally thought her cousin would be in town this weekend. She had made plans for us to go out to dinner with her on Friday night instead of bowling in our league. We pre-bowled on Sunday thinking that the plans were still going to happen. My wife got a call this morning saying that her cousin got her dates mixed up and she won't be in town until next month. Would it be ok from your perspective to show up to league tomorrow and say we wanted to bowl and not use our pre-bowl scores? My wife did really well (40 pins over average) but she is finally starting to love bowling as much as I do and wants to bowl in league. What do you all think? We're only allowed 8 pre-bowls and we want to save them just in case an emergency or something comes up.

Once the games have been bowled, you're pretty much committed to them.

There would have to be some very odd things occur for the scores to be nullified.

If you were allowed to just ignore the scores by choice, it opens up abuse of when having bowled bad, you just show up on the regular night and hope to do better.

[Sourtower]

Once the games have been bowled, you're pretty much committed to them.

There would have to be some very odd things occur for the scores to be nullified.

If you were allowed to just ignore the scores by choice, it opens up abuse of when having bowled bad, you just show up on the regular night and hope to do better.

I understand what you're saying and see how that could be exploited. It stinks that we wasted a pre-bowl for a day we are able to bowl. We both bowled way over our averages, I just love bowling in league and the whole atmosphere. I guess we'll have to find another place to bowl tomorrow night.

[fordman1]

Absolutely against the rules. Once bowled the scores count. Call your local assn. or USBC rules dept. and I guarantee you will get the same answer. Maybe I shouldn't say local who knows where you are or what they might say. Call USBC rules dept. in Texas.

[NewToBowling]

I would hope you couldn't bowl again after pre-bowling. Think of all the potential abuse. You could pre-bowl every day of the week and pick the highest scores. I understand your circumstances are unique but far more nefarious people would use this to their advantage.

[vdubtx]

Yeah, not gonna happen for you to bowl again after you pre-bowled. Since you were 40 or whatever over average each, leave it as is. That's a good set of bowling. :cool:

[Ishkabibble]

Go out to dinner and a movie or go practice a few games at another house.

[manke]

People would abuse the heck out of it.

[Tony]

With any leagues I've bowled when you go to center and pre bowl it's as if you rolled the game in your league. You can't re bowl a game once it's entered.
Actually had it happen last year a guy pre bowled against us and showed up, said he got back to town early and wanted to bowl, the league secretary told him to go get a lane and bowl if he feels like it but the scores entered stand and he can't change anything.

[Amyers]

I've seen people get away with doing this at my centers around here but it sounds like to consensus is No. Interesting I can understand why.

[NewToBowling]

I would only pre or post bowl out of absolute necessity. Why bowl when the lanes aren't optimal (meaning not freshly oiled).

My league now is on Sunday Nights. When the Broncos played on Sunday Night Football half the league didn't show up. The Broncos I believe have two more Sunday Night Football games. I expect the same deal. We usually finish up in an hour if it's just us.

[fordman1]

Does no one know the rules? It is forbidden. No discussion necessary.


I've seen people get away with doing this at my centers around here but it sounds like to consensus is No. Interesting I can understand why.

[bowl1820]

It's right in the USBC Rules, under Rule 107 – Team Composition and Rule 111 – Pre-bowl/Postponements


NOTE: Once a player records scores, whether prebowled, post bowled or at the regularly scheduled
time, the player’s eligibility for that series has been exhausted. The posted scores must be
utilized in figuring team and individual standings, unless declared null and void by the league
board of directors.


Commonly Asked Questions – Rule 107a.
107a/1 We had an individual/team pre-bowl because they had to work. Later, they found out
that they would not have to work on that date so they appeared at the lanes to bowl.
Can the league secretary throw out their scores and allow them to bowl?
No. When an individual or team receives permission from the league and completes their
pre-bowl, they have exhausted their eligibility for that league session. The league board of
directors has the authority to declare the pre-bowled scores null and void only if a rule was
violated or due to mitigating circumstances. However, the change in the individual’s work
schedule does not fall into either of these categories, therefore, the scores would stand.


and

111e/4 We had an individual/team pre-bowl because they had to work. Later they found out
that they would not have to work on that date so they appeared at the lanes to bowl.
Can the league secretary throw out their scores and allow them to bowl?
No. When an individual or team receives permission from the league and completes their prebowl,
they have exhausted their eligibility for that league session.

[foreverincamo]

One thing you could ask is if you could still show up and bowl but still use the bowl out scores.

[Mike White]

One thing you could ask is if you could still show up and bowl but still use the bowl out scores.

The bowling center might not like that idea, or want to charge some $ for the repeated lineage.

The league may have rules against pacers.

[fordman1]

If I am the owner I would love to have you come down and pace. Buy a few burgers and beers. You won't get anything with out them there.

[Mike White]

If I am the owner I would love to have you come down and pace. Buy a few burgers and beers. You won't get anything with out them there.

By that logic they should make open bowling free.

[fordman1]

I was talking about having people missing during league.

[Tony]

If I am the owner I would love to have you come down and pace. Buy a few burgers and beers. You won't get anything with out them there.

I doubt the opposing team would like having non scoring bowlers bowling during their league match, maybe they would ask if they can come and open bowl (for free) along with the people pre bowling, I would have a big problem with that kind of crap.
When some bowlers tried to come and bowl after pre bowling in one of my leagues the sec told them if you want to open bowl go to the front desk and see if they have a lane otherwise all you can do is watch.
( they can buy all the burgers and beer while they are watching)

[Tony]

By that logic they should make open bowling free.

Right, free open bowling with purchase of a burger and fries !

[Tony]

One thing you could ask is if you could still show up and bowl but still use the bowl out scores.

As long as they are open bowling on designated lanes that would be fine, but have them free bowling in the regular league format would be crazy. That would not be the slightest bit reasonable in my opinion.

[bowl1820]

Note Pacing in a league is not the same as open bowling, when a league allows pacers they are used to balance the rotation of the teams and they have to abide by the rules also.

And while pacers scores don't count for the team they are pacing on, Pacers who are sanctioned can also win any of the USBC individual awards with the scores they shoot while pacing.

[fordman1]

Seems a little harsh if you ask me. What is the harm? They are league members in good standing.

[Mike White]

Seems a little harsh if you ask me. What is the harm? They are league members in good standing.

As far as the league is concerned, no harm.

But the proprietor is only being paid for one of the two bowling sessions when someone pre-bowls (not paid at that time), and then paces (the league pays for the lineage out of those bowlers normal fees).

[dnhoffman]

My league, you'd be locked into those scores.

[fordman1]

I think that what I said would make sense in this case. Would it not be good PR to let them bowl? Besides like I said before maybe you could sell the some food and drinks. That why so many places go under no humanity.

[Mike White]

I think that what I said would make sense in this case. Would it not be good PR to let them bowl? Besides like I said before maybe you could sell the some food and drinks. That why so many places go under no humanity.

Most of the time the people running the desk are minimum wage or close, and they aren't authorized to give away free games.

[Tony]

Excerpt from :

Rule 323

A pacer cannot later enter or compete in the tournament, unless the tournament rules permit multiple participation.


I could only find Pacers listed in Tournament rules.
Along with the lack of mention for League rules and the sentence above it would appear Pacers are not allowed to be members of the group they are Pacing.
League rules line-ups section do not mention pacers as part of a legal lineup.
So if that is true you would have to establish local rules (if allowed ) to allow pre bowlers to attend and pace for their team.

[bowl1820]

Excerpt from :

Rule 323

A pacer cannot later enter or compete in the tournament, unless the tournament rules permit multiple participation.


I could only find Pacers listed in Tournament rules.
Along with the lack of mention for League rules and the sentence above it would appear Pacers are not allowed to be members of the group they are Pacing.
League rules line-ups section do not mention pacers as part of a legal lineup.
So if that is true you would have to establish local rules (if allowed ) to allow pre bowlers to attend and pace for their team.

Pacers are in this section of the USBC Playing Rules 2015-2016
Chapter 2: General Playing Rules
Page 43

107d. Pacers
A pacer is a bowler who fills in to balance the rotation of the teams. The following shall apply
to all pacers:
1. Scores bowled do not count toward team totals nor are they included in the average records.
2. Pacers are allowed, unless otherwise provided by league rule.
3. Pacers who are USBC members are eligible for all USBC individual awards.

Whether or not Pacers could be counted towards a legal lineup was never a question.

And as long as a league allows pacing in the rules, there's nothing in the USBC rules that say you can't pace on your own team (assuming the situation presented itself). the only question would be the cost of and paying the lineage for the bowling (Which would either be payed to the league or the house directly).



A pacer cannot later enter or compete in the tournament, unless the tournament rules permit multiple participation.

I could only find Pacers listed in Tournament rules.
Along with the lack of mention for League rules and the sentence above it would appear Pacers are not allowed to be members of the group they are Pacing.

That is not what that rule says and It has nothing to do with the group they pace with, it just says that if someone paces in a tournament. They can't enter the tournament later on or be a contestant in that tournament also. Unless the rules allow multiple participation.

[Tony]

Pacers are in this section of the USBC Playing Rules 2015-2016
Chapter 2: General Playing Rules
Page 43

107d. Pacers
A pacer is a bowler who fills in to balance the rotation of the teams. The following shall apply
to all pacers:
1. Scores bowled do not count toward team totals nor are they included in the average records.
2. Pacers are allowed, unless otherwise provided by league rule.
3. Pacers who are USBC members are eligible for all USBC individual awards.

Whether or not Pacers could be counted towards a legal lineup was never a question.

And as long as a league allows pacing in the rules, there's nothing in the USBC rules that say you can't pace on your own team (assuming the situation presented itself). the only question would be the cost of and paying the lineage for the bowling (Which would either be payed to the league or the house directly).




That is not what that rule says and It has nothing to do with the group they pace with, it just says that if someone paces in a tournament. They can't enter the tournament later on or be a contestant in that tournament also. Unless the rules allow multiple participation.

I was looking at a previous years rules but none the less, if a tournament player is not allowed to pace for a tournament he's entered in (unless multiple participation) then I would contend a league bowler could not pace for a team he bowls on, unless the league rules allow multiple participation.
Rule 107 says multiple participation in a league is not allowed (unless otherwise provided by league rule)

It's the same concept, it just may not have ever come up so they have not added it to the rules.......
Gray area's like this are why their are Lawyers....

[bowl1820]

I was looking at a previous years rules but none the less, if a tournament player is not allowed to pace for a tournament he's entered in (unless multiple participation) then I would contend a league bowler could not pace for a team he bowls on, unless the league rules allow multiple participation.
The pacer rule has been in the rule books for years, so most likely you just missed.

Having the contention is fine, But tournament rules are for tournaments not leagues. So If your on a league you use league rules.



Rule 107 says multiple participation in a league is not allowed (unless otherwise provided by league rule)

Rule 107 doesn't say multiple participation in a league is not allowed. It says you can't compete on more than one team in the same league. (You can't bowl on two teams at the same time)

And has no bearing on whether someone is pacing on their own team.

Rule 107a. Competition Limited to One Team
Under no conditions may a player bowl on more than one team in the same scheduled game. In
addition, the following shall apply:

1. A player may not compete on more than one team in the same league for each of the regularly
scheduled games in a series, unless otherwise provided by league rule.
2. When a team’s roster is equal to or less than the playing strength of the league, a member of that
team cannot substitute on another team in the same league.
3. A player on a team whose roster exceeds the playing strength of the league may bowl with other
teams as substitutes provided there are no openings in their team lineup, unless the league rules
state a roster member cannot bowl as a substitute on other teams.
NOTE: Once a player records scores, whether prebowled, post bowled or at the regularly scheduled
time, the player’s eligibility for that series has been exhausted. The posted scores must be
utilized in figuring team and individual standings, unless declared null and void by the league
board of directors.



It's the same concept, it just may not have ever come up so they have not added it to the rules.......
Gray area's like this are why their are Lawyers....

[Tony]

"Rule 107 doesn't say multiple participation in a league is not allowed. It says you can't compete on more than one team in the same league. (You can't bowl on two teams at the same time)"



The rule does not use the term "Multiple participation" but the example and description of competing on more than one team fits the definition of multiple participation.

The specific term does not have to be included but rather an inclusion of multiple items can be covered under one umbrella.

For example is there a specific rule that says I can't yell yippity doo every time I roll a ball down the lane ? But yet the rules would include that as an annoyance and direct me to stop, but they can't point out a specific rule that addresses what exactly I yelled. So does the lack of the specific example mean there's not a rule and I can yell anything that's not specifically included in the rule.

As a result the declaration that if it doesn't specifically exclude an item in the rules then it is allowed is not necessarily true in every case.

The interpretation that if it doesn't specifically state an action is against the rules then it must be allowed is an issue with many rules / laws, since the original issue of pre-bowling has been answered I don't see any additional benefit in continuing to explore scenario's that are intended as work-arounds to allow bowlers to pre-bowl and then bowl again during league.

[bowl1820]

Agreed there is no additional benefit in continuing the discussion.

Note:
The question was posed to the USBC and here is their response.

Question:
If league rules allow pacing, Can a player who pre-bowled for their team come in and pace on their own team or another team?

Example:
Player John is granted a Pre-Bowl and bowls and turns his scores in. Later he finds he can be there for league night and would like to bowl with his friends. Knowing his pre-bowled scores must be used, for win & Loses. He Asks if he can just pace on his team (He pays any needed lineage) since the league rules allow pacing.

USBC Response:
Dear *******

This is in reference to your e-mail of October 25, 2015.

There is no USBC Rule that would prohibit him from pacing.

So, it is up to the league as to whether or not they will allow him to pace or not.


If you have questions regarding this information, please feel free to contact me.

John Budnik
Senior Rules Counselor
Rules/Bonding

[NewToBowling]

Thinking of pre-bowling this upcoming weekend. It's the Broncos-Packers game and I know for sure 3/4 of the team won't show up even though they will have it on the TV's in the alley. But I do want to bowl on fresh oil and if our opponent doesn't show up we can bowl quickly and be done by end of 1st quarter.

Now I know why this was a split season. 14 week season until December and then starting in January a 15 week season. I suspect the January league will have a lot more teams due to football season coming to an end.