Sandbagger meet my best friend Karma

[LyalC52]

if i wasn't bowing with my daughters, i would only bowl scratch leagues due to jerks like the ones Im about to tell a hilarious story about

Thursday night mixed league, there is a team with a bitter old couple that scheme and openly sandbag
they have 2 vacant spots and have refused to allow anyone to be added to their team

they write numbers and have it down how to get just enough points to win, or if they think they have lost, they will bomb badly

so last night was position round, they were in the 3rd spot, my team the 4th
the house we bowls in usually adds the difference in handicap to the first frame, so the team with less handicap has their scratch score below, and there is a + or - on each teams monitor.

well the house didn't put the handicaps in, so both teams were tracking scratch and the +/- was based on scratch
no one noticed or said anything
our team gets 45 pins of handicap more than they do

so 10th frame of the first game, the anchor waits until my team has completely finished the 10th. he was working on a spare and the monitor showed +16 for them. he throws both balls in the gutter.

second game they get off off a big lead and coast the rest of the game and win by 50

third game was close most of the game. I was very pissy by this point so as the lead off bowler, i wandered off and waited until they gave in and finally bowled the 10th. the rest of my team sat at the table and laughed about it. as it ended, the score said we lost by 30

then as we turned the recap sheet in, something didn't look right and that's when we noticed the handicap was not added in
so we won 3 of the 4 points

had the bitter old goat not thrown those 2 gutters, they would have been the ones with 3 points

[Jessiewoodard57]

and I'll bet it's not even a money league is it

[LyalC52]

at best, if you win the league maybe $300 per bowler
weekly fee is only $15.00

[bowl1820]

so last night was position round, they were in the 3rd spot, my team the 4th
the house we bowls in usually adds the difference in handicap to the first frame, so the team with less handicap has their scratch score below, and there is a + or - on each teams monitor.

well the house didn't put the handicaps in, so both teams were tracking scratch and the +/- was based on scratch
no one noticed or said anything
our team gets 45 pins of handicap more than they do



Lesson to be learned here:

Both Team Captains should be checking that handicaps & scoring are correctly being done at the start and finish of a nights bowling (Especially on position rounds).

Note: Given if the team refuses to allow any bowlers to be added to their team to fill out the team roster. The league could take steps to remove them from the league.

[zdawg]

Note: Given if the team refuses to allow any bowlers to be added to their team to fill out the team roster. The league could take steps to remove them from the league.

I was gonna say, I'm fairly certain that isn't even allowed in my league.

[LyalC52]

yea much harder to sand bag as a team with four

[Ishkabibble]

Do they pay for the 2 vacant spots?

[LyalC52]

no

this league is very loosely run, the secretary does what he thinks is best, we really need rules

[bowl1820]

Do they pay for the 2 vacant spots?


no

this league is very loosely run, the secretary does what he thinks is best, we really need rules

Most leagues don't make teams pay for vacancies, But will reduce your prize money payout. Usually by at least the amount of prizefund/Sec. money your team didn't pay in. (the lineage portion would all depend on how the house charges the league for lineage.)

[fordman1]

If it is a certified USBC league you can use the USBC rules. That being said every league should have Bylaws.
If you had rules you would have had a pre season meeting and you could have put in a rule only full teams can bowl and if a team is short they must accept anyone the league can find to fill their spot or be dropped.


no

this league is very loosely run, the secretary does what he thinks is best, we really need rules

[ChuckR]

I can understand the points on having rules, especially in this case.
Question: If a league becomes short on some teams, can they consolidate during the year? I am in a Senior league that is well run. They have become short of bowlers due to an age issue, I believe. Can they within USBC rules consolidate teams during the year?

[LyalC52]

yes we are certified and use the USBC rules, but again no bylaws YET, if I keep bowling this league i will insist on them next year.

on week one we had 10 teams, most were full but some had vacant players. We are now up to 16 teams, the sandbagger have 2 vacant spots and two of the other teams each have 1.

again if I wasn't bowling with my daughters, I would only bowl on scratch leagues

[bowl1820]

I can understand the points on having rules, especially in this case.
Question: If a league becomes short on some teams, can they consolidate during the year? I am in a Senior league that is well run. They have become short of bowlers due to an age issue, I believe. Can they within USBC rules consolidate teams during the year?

That came up here once in years past it could be done, But it requires a Captains vote to allow it.

It's basically covered by Rule 107b. which covers a player wanting to move to another team.

107b. Transferring Team Membership
Unless otherwise provided by league rule, a bowler listed on a team’s roster and whose scores have counted, may transfer to another team in the league during the season provided:
1. Adult leagues: Two-thirds of the league’s team captains agree to the transfer. This provision does not apply to USBC closed leagues, or to any league which adopts its own rule to govern transfers.

[larry mc]

as a usbc officer . i would have warned them for blatant sand bagging and if seen again i would have booted them out

[TVan]

Throwing two balls purposely in the ditch should be addressed. Mixed league or not that is crazy. Everyone knows a sandbagger or two but I have never heard of that. Especially in a league for fun that pays out very little. I don't know how someone could openly cheat this way, it has me all fired up. You are a better person than I am I guess as I would have called them out. Not because I wanted to win but because I am so disgusted by someone that would cheat in a fun league.

[fordman1]

I understand rule 107b but what about forcing a short team to add an available replacement?

[Ishkabibble]

Our house in the past would charge the leagues for the 2 missing bowlers.

[Tony]

Throwing two balls purposely in the ditch should be addressed. Mixed league or not that is crazy. Everyone knows a sandbagger or two but I have never heard of that. Especially in a league for fun that pays out very little. I don't know how someone could openly cheat this way, it has me all fired up. You are a better person than I am I guess as I would have called them out. Not because I wanted to win but because I am so disgusted by someone that would cheat in a fun league.

I have never seen anyone sandbagging like that, I've heard from some of the members here that there is heavy sandbagging in the sweeps often held in Vegas, but that's got much bigger stakes so you would expect more people to stoop that low.

[bowl1820]

I understand rule 107b but what about forcing a short team to add an available replacement?

There is no USBC rule that directly address's a team that refuses to allow any bowlers to be added to their team to fill out their teams roster by league.

So the decision basically falls upon the League board of directors to handle the situation.

Contacting the USBC Rules dept. and asking for guidance would be the first step.

Given if the team is shown not to be making a serious effort to obtain a member (which they should do and it appears they are not doing) and if they haven't provided good reason for refusing the players provided by the league to fill their roster.

Then the league should be able to force them to either accept the players or remove the team from the league.

Rule 115a could be used I believe, in that the team is using a:conduct derogatory to the best interest of the league
(and possibly c: Violation of any USBC or league rule.)

115a. Dismissal of a League Officer or Player
A league member can file a written charge asking for removal of a league officer or
dismissal of a player.
1. A player may be dismissed from the league or an officer removed from league office only for any of
the following reasons:
a. Conduct derogatory to the best interest of the league.
b. Any deliberate action which can be proven to be detrimental to the best interest of the team.
c. Violation of any USBC or league rule.

[TVan]

These folks won't add bowlers because they can't find anyone else who isn't morally disgusted by their sandbagging.

[Aslan]

no

this league is very loosely run, the secretary does what he thinks is best, we really need rules

Discussion: Meet Root Cause

I played in a league with blatent sandbaggers back in 2013. In 2013, 2014, and the first part of 2015 I played in leagues with less blatent sandbaggers. Now I'm in a pair of leagues where there seems to be less...but it's early. One alarming thing I've noticed is one of the blatent sandbaggers from 2013 is now on a "super team" in my Wednesday league. That team was carefully put together to win the league (along with 5-6 other teams that did the same including mine) and they are currently in first place. I will certainly be watching said player as the season progresses. Since the last time it happened (blatent sandbagging) the league was non-sanctioned...nobody raised a stink...but now that it's a sanctioned league...I'm not going to let them get away with it if that is still something they are doing.

One way I've found to alleviate some sandbagging is to have a lot of side pots. On Wednesdays we have;
- side pot (highest handicap score 1st and 3rd, highest scratch score 2nd game)
- SKINS (pot grows until only one person strikes out in the 10th or it reaches $500)
- mystery score
- 50/50
- BRACKETS

Brackets and Skins are the important ones because when a player gets the urge to just dump balls into the gutter to preserve their handicap...they really can't do it until the 2nd shot because striking out could be worth $$$. And if they are still alive in the brackets...they got a chance at $$...even if their team is struggling. So having these other payouts going on actually keeps individual bowlers trying their hardest when in other situations those bowlers might be focused on preserving handicap.

[Jessiewoodard57]

My thoughts are what good is the win if you had to cheat to get it? Even if nobody else knew I would know.

[Tony]

My thoughts are what good is the win if you had to cheat to get it? Even if nobody else knew I would know.

Seems like the people that do sandbag and win have in some way justified what they are doing, and that allows them to do what they are doing. It pretty much works the same way with most crime, they have justified in their mind why it's permissible or even required that they do these things, it's what allows them to bypass the normal inner conscious that would prevent most people from doing those things. Scientists discovered much of this over the years of interviewing serial killers and finding nearly all had justified why they had to do it.

[Tony]

Discussion: Meet Root Cause

I played in a league with blatent sandbaggers back in 2013. In 2013, 2014, and the first part of 2015 I played in leagues with less blatent sandbaggers. Now I'm in a pair of leagues where there seems to be less...but it's early. One alarming thing I've noticed is one of the blatent sandbaggers from 2013 is now on a "super team" in my Wednesday league. That team was carefully put together to win the league (along with 5-6 other teams that did the same including mine) and they are currently in first place. I will certainly be watching said player as the season progresses. Since the last time it happened (blatent sandbagging) the league was non-sanctioned...nobody raised a stink...but now that it's a sanctioned league...I'm not going to let them get away with it if that is still something they are doing.

One way I've found to alleviate some sandbagging is to have a lot of side pots. On Wednesdays we have;
- side pot (highest handicap score 1st and 3rd, highest scratch score 2nd game)
- SKINS (pot grows until only one person strikes out in the 10th or it reaches $500)
- mystery score
- 50/50
- BRACKETS

Brackets and Skins are the important ones because when a player gets the urge to just dump balls into the gutter to preserve their handicap...they really can't do it until the 2nd shot because striking out could be worth $$$. And if they are still alive in the brackets...they got a chance at $$...even if their team is struggling. So having these other payouts going on actually keeps individual bowlers trying their hardest when in other situations those bowlers might be focused on preserving handicap.

The brackets skins and pots sound like an excellent way to help prevent sandbagging, how do you get all the sandbaggers to take part ?

[fordman1]

Well we shouldn't have much bagging. In 9 weeks we have paid out $32,000 in pot money.

[Aslan]

The brackets skins and pots sound like an excellent way to help prevent sandbagging, how do you get all the sandbaggers to take part ?

Sandbaggers want money. They can win the most in Vegas at sweeps (usually). But to not participate in side pots/skins/brackets....they are losing money every week. So they've done the math and realize that if they win one bracket a week for 35 weeks; thats $1000. Even if they enter 2 per week, they still clear $650. At Vegas, even best case scenario...they might win $400-$1200.

[boomer]

I'm trying to get vacant scores lowered to the point that it becomes unprofitable to have them for any length of time. My problem with persistent vacancies is that it doesn't actually hurt the team to have them - it helps, in fact. Two bowlers that always hit their average? Always get the same score and never have a bad night? Heck ya!

Drop their score to the point it becomes a real handicap and they'll find people to fill those spots. . .

[bowl1820]

I'm trying to get vacant scores lowered to the point that it becomes unprofitable to have them for any length of time. My problem with persistent vacancies is that it doesn't actually hurt the team to have them - it helps, in fact. Two bowlers that always hit their average? Always get the same score and never have a bad night? Heck ya!

While persistent vacancies might not hurt a team, they don't really help a team either. My team has been plagued with long running vacancies (1&2 players) for several seasons and it doesn't help. While vacancies don't have a bad night, they don't have good nights either. If your bowling bad, nobody is taking up the slack.


Drop their score to the point it becomes a real handicap and they'll find people to fill those spots. . .

Now if you want to try a different vacancy score, you can try what the big men's league here did. They were complaining about teams having vacancies and came up with this:

"Vacancy score is a zero (0) with handicap."

Example:
Old vacancy score was 140 (Hdcp is 90% 0f 230), so you had 140gm + 81hdcp for a 221 hdcp game.

Using the zero vacancy score system, you got a "0" gm + 207 hdcp for a 207 hdcp game.

Everybody thought that was great.


Or you can use a vacancy score with zero handicap, USBC rules say a league can adopt a rule restricting handicap for a vacancy score.