Benchmark ball? Then what?

[Ptnomore]

Reading something that Rob wrote in another thread about watching Senior Pot Bowlers stuck me in the side.

One conversation that I'm CONSTANTLY having with an older MUCH more experienced bowler on my team, is about correct ball changes, and the impact of the occasional high scoring game has on what you are seeing the ball do.

I don't have enough experience to see or notice the differences in my ball's skid, rotation or drive through the pins to make the correct decision about ball choice all the time.

We struggle with changing oil types, changing patterns, the types of bowlers and their equipment that we bowl against and the affect they have on the lane. ALL of the old guys and even some of the hard headed 210+ average younger house bowlers curse the "oil" as being inconsistant, non-existant, crappy machine, crappy machine operator, etc. I laugh at it, and do my best to adjust. I just don't know what I'm seeing sometimes, or how to adjust to it. Sometimes I make a good decision, and other times, I waste a frame or two.

Lately, I have noticed that what my teammate thinks is High Volume, is actually light to Medium volume, but a longer length. I noticed that because of the soft hits and weak motion I get with my skid/flip aggressive equipment. And when I "ball down" to my polished pearl (Nail Smoke and Fire), the backend movement is much stronger and controllable. I totally see how the shot masks problems. That has hindered me making better decisions in the past, but I feel like I'm gaining on it.

My teammates however, consistantly struggles with over under, "bad hand position", fast/slow foot speed, etc, one insisting on throwing his Mutant Cell as deep into the set as his frustration level will allow, until that ball gets lofted to the concrete deck in the back where he keeps his bag. I really don't know how that ball doesn't have a square side on it yet. So, he'll ball down to the Hy-Road, maybe even his Frantic, but if he throws just ONE bad ball, pulls it left, leaves a ringinig 10, a split, whatever, out comes the Mutant Cell again.

This team is killing me. I'm the youngest on the team by 20 years. It's a high dollar Mens money league with a 197 Average Mens. Seems like at least (1) 300 is thrown every week. But it's fairly common for the bowlers to throw a 300, and tank the rest of the series and sometimes for weeks to come. My teamates all have the one ball that "works at the other house", stand on 20, throw over 10 target system, and will NOT move, although they SWEAR that they do. Just makes me shake my head.

Anyhow, for me, the 195-200 avg house bowler, what are some triggers, or signs that the ball isn't skidding in the "high volume of oil", but instead burning up, or vice versa? Some of the higher average bowlers talk about a "wiggle" that they see. I don't see it. What the hell is that? Some use the remaining pins on the deck after what they think was a good shot as a deciding factor in a ball change. Some of it I get, have read about, etc, But I swear I've heard more old wive's tails on this team than I did growing up on the farm with my grandparents.

Is there any help other than experience, alot of time with a coach, etc? 15mph, average revs, nothing spectacular, still tryiing to keep tabs on my timing and loose arm swing.

I'd LOVE it if someone that knew what the hell my ball was doing, would tell me. Instead, I get the usual occasional "don't drop your shoulder", or "you're turning your wrist", or "slow down your feet". That shtuff I know. I know it when I do it wrong. Except for the shoulder drop one. That one still makes me laugh. I have spent quite a bit of time with a coach to get my form under control.

Now I need to know what the heck I'm seeing after the ball leaves my hand.

[foreverincamo]

Don't worry about what your teammates do as far as changing balls or moving their feet. Just watch their shots and yours and watch the ball shape and where the balls exit the deck. Start with whatever ball you like, then go stronger or weaker as needed. Just know a "stronger" ball is one that reacts to the lane the soonest. A weaker ball doesn't mean it doesn't hook a lot. It just means it reads the lane much later before it hooks.

[Timmyb]

I'm a guy who doesn't flop around from ball to ball. I grew up in an age when you didn't have 4-ball bowling bags, and the only two ball bags looked like a mutant briefcase. I think it's served my game well over the years to be able to bowl with only two pieces, one that hooks, and one that doesn't. That being said, here's what I do.

First, be a student. Pay attention to what's going on with the other guys on your lanes, especially the ones who bowl like you. One of the best learning tools is to watch other peoples mistakes! Next, watch your own shots. I know a lot of guys who throw an errant shot, and spin around in disgust, only to miss something the ball did right once they turned around. That's a tough one, though. It's real hard to watch your own ball reaction, because that sometimes takes your attention away from the actual act, and then you make stupid mistakes. It really does take practice to watch yourself bowl. And be proactive! If your ball starts coming up high, there was most likely a sign one or two shots earlier that would key you to changing conditions (yeah, I know. Hindsight....). This also falls under "watch the other guys". Don't be so quick to change equipment. I see a lot of kids in my league make three or four ball changes a night, and then ***** that they can't hold a line. Shocker....

Look, I'm no pro. I'm just a guy who's been at this for 40+ years, and has learned a few dirty tricks along the way. Take that for what it's worth.

[RobLV1]

The single most important thing for you to learn to do is to watch the ball go through the pins. It's kind of like Goldilocks and the three bears: if your ball hits the pocket and deflects to the right, it's probably burning up, if it hits the pocket and keeps going to the left, it's probably too strong for the line you're playing, and if it hits the pocket and goes straight back between the eight pin and the nine pin, it's just right!

[Timmyb]

The single most important thing for you to learn to do is to watch the ball go through the pins. It's kind of like Goldilocks and the three bears: if your ball hits the pocket and deflects to the right, it's probably burning up, if it hits the pocket and keeps going to the left, it's probably too strong for the line you're playing, and if it hits the pocket and goes straight back between the eight pin and the nine pin, it's just right!

Amen!

[NewToBowling]

The single most important thing for you to learn to do is to watch the ball go through the pins. It's kind of like Goldilocks and the three bears: if your ball hits the pocket and deflects to the right, it's probably burning up, if it hits the pocket and keeps going to the left, it's probably too strong for the line you're playing, and if it hits the pocket and goes straight back between the eight pin and the nine pin, it's just right!

Good tips. Actually one of the best ones I've read so far

[dnhoffman]

The single most important thing for you to learn to do is to watch the ball go through the pins. It's kind of like Goldilocks and the three bears: if your ball hits the pocket and deflects to the right, it's probably burning up, if it hits the pocket and keeps going to the left, it's probably too strong for the line you're playing, and if it hits the pocket and goes straight back between the eight pin and the nine pin, it's just right!

This is all you need to know - keep it simple!

[vdubtx]

This is all you need to know - keep it simple!

This, this, absolutely this. Don't try to over-analyze, watch the ball as it exits the pin deck after hitting pocket and you can make adjustments based off of that.

Other key thing is to know what each ball in your arsenal does for you on various lane conditions/surfaces.

[Jessiewoodard57]

Thanks Rob for the simple explanation going to have to remember this

[bobforsaken]

The single most important thing for you to learn to do is to watch the ball go through the pins. It's kind of like Goldilocks and the three bears: if your ball hits the pocket and deflects to the right, it's probably burning up, if it hits the pocket and keeps going to the left, it's probably too strong for the line you're playing, and if it hits the pocket and goes straight back between the eight pin and the nine pin, it's just right!

I love this.. but what does that translate into in terms of changes?
1) If it deflects you may be able to "ball down" to prevent it from burning up. Or I would assume, move into more oil to conserve energy.
2) If it keeps going left through the pocket then... ? Move left again to increase the angle? Move right to get out of the oil sooner and burn off some energy? Move right and get into something with a weaker core? Change the breakpoint left to STAY in the oil?

I'm confused about what to do when my ball drives through too much and I start leaving 4-9 splits. I seem to get stuck between 4-9 splits.. move a little left and then get 2-8-10. Should I get into something with less flare at that point?

[Amyers]

I love this.. but what does that translate into in terms of changes?
1) If it deflects you may be able to "ball down" to prevent it from burning up. Or I would assume, move into more oil to conserve energy.
2) If it keeps going left through the pocket then... ? Move left again to increase the angle? Move right to get out of the oil sooner and burn off some energy? Move right and get into something with a weaker core? Change the breakpoint left to STAY in the oil?

I'm confused about what to do when my ball drives through too much and I start leaving 4-9 splits. I seem to get stuck between 4-9 splits.. move a little left and then get 2-8-10. Should I get into something with less flare at that point?

Are you making parallel adjustments (2-2)? this is may be the problem if you are you are moving your break point more into the oil as you adjust causing the ball not to get back to a clean hit on the pocket. Maybe try 3-1 adjustments or ball up as you move in should help with this.

[bobforsaken]

Are you making parallel adjustments (2-2)? this is may be the problem if you are you are moving your break point more into the oil as you adjust causing the ball not to get back to a clean hit on the pocket. Maybe try 3-1 adjustments or ball up as you move in should help with this.

I'm usually doing 1 and 1 first.. then an additional 2 and 1 to end up at 3 and 2, if that makes any sense. If I move big I'm usually doing 3 and 2.

[Amyers]

I'm usually doing 1 and 1 first.. then an additional 2 and 1 to end up at 3 and 2, if that makes any sense. If I move big I'm usually doing 3 and 2.

With the problem your describing I would try making a 3-1 as my intital adjustment and see how that works feed the ball to the friction a little more. You could also ball up with your 3-2 move inside and try that.

[bobforsaken]

Worth a try.. thanks!

[RobLV1]

I love this.. but what does that translate into in terms of changes?
1) If it deflects you may be able to "ball down" to prevent it from burning up. Or I would assume, move into more oil to conserve energy.
2) If it keeps going left through the pocket then... ? Move left again to increase the angle? Move right to get out of the oil sooner and burn off some energy? Move right and get into something with a weaker core? Change the breakpoint left to STAY in the oil?

I'm confused about what to do when my ball drives through too much and I start leaving 4-9 splits. I seem to get stuck between 4-9 splits.. move a little left and then get 2-8-10. Should I get into something with less flare at that point?

At the point where you start leaving 4-9 splits, the first thing that I would try is moving left, using a more aggressive (earlier rolling) bowling ball. Many bowlers fall into the trap of always balling down, where many times balling up is the correct adjustment.

[Ptnomore]

The single most important thing for you to learn to do is to watch the ball go through the pins. It's kind of like Goldilocks and the three bears: if your ball hits the pocket and deflects to the right, it's probably burning up, if it hits the pocket and keeps going to the left, it's probably too strong for the line you're playing, and if it hits the pocket and goes straight back between the eight pin and the nine pin, it's just right!


Boom! Thats some info that I had been missing! THAT will help! Thank you!

So, I've been way busy lately at home and at work, and haven't been able to log back on to this thread till this morning. I wish I had read it before last nights league.

I gave one of my old "medium" balls with a generic layout to a co-worker to use till he got a ball of his own. I asked for it back last night just so I could try it and help solidify my thoughts on the existing pattern and what i was seeing me equipment do. I was SO right.

So, that old ball is the first ball I purchased when I got back into bowling 6 or 7 years ago. It's a Columbia Freeze. First finger tip ball I ever owned. 1st game with it, threw the front 6, then pulled it left in the 7th. Still finished with a 246. 214 the second game. 3rd game with my Nail Smoke and fire, was a 206. I Left the 10th open, missed an easy spare. That ball (the Freeze) went long and JUST when I was about to give up on it, it made a left turn. Something I've never seen that ball do before. It gave me room to miss to the right. And came up to the pocket very strong.

The only other "medium" ball that I have is the Hammer Arson Hybrid. And I struggle on this pattern with that ball gettiing it to the pocket at a strong enough angle. I leave alot of single pins with that ball. Last season, and this past summer, that ball was money for me. Carried a 207 average this summer with it. But then they changed the conditioner type, viscosity, and pattern for fall league.

But last nights series is my first 600 series in quite a few weeks now. So, now with this new bit of info about where the ball exits the pin deck, I'll go in to my Friday night league with something more to look for. That should help me figure out WHY one ball is working more than another, and help me figure out when to make a ball change. I've heard folks tell me to watch where the ball exits the pin deck. It's not easy to see. But I also didnt know what I was looking for. And when I asked them, they weren't real clear on that either. It's like they heard that from somewhere too, but didn't quite know why.

Thanks! To all of you. Everyone that posted here gave me a little bit more than what I had. Even the guys with 40+ years of experience throwing 2 balls. I wish I could, I'm limited with an old wrist injury that prevents to many changes in hand position, but still advice that i don't take lightly.

My one teammate, that I've been bowling with for 4 years now is talking about quitting. He's as stubborn as they come. He's been bowling longer than I've been alive. He has a 195 average, and hasn't hit that in quite some time now. Last night, he threw a 478 series. Still trying to throw that damn Mutant Cell. We lost totals by one pin last night. 1. Ugh.

[Ptnomore]

Maybe this one should be in a seperate thread, I don't know.

So, the old Columbia 300 Freeze that l I did well with last night is 5-6 years old, easily has several hundred games on it, has been resurfaced at least twice. I don't know how much life it has in it.

So I was in the PS last night looking at balls that would be a good replacement for it, maybe something to compliment it with a stronger back end, since I have a much smoother arcing "medium" ball already (Hammer Arson Hybrid).

The PSO recommended the IQ Tour 30, or the Hammer Viral. The Virals numbers are identical to the Freeze. The Tour 30 seems like it's a MUCH stronger ball so his recommendation on that threw me a little bit.

So here's the new balls that I'm looking at to replace or compliment the Freeze. Current house shot is medium-light volume but longer guessing at 42-45'. I'm an average speed average to low rev bowler with a med to high track. Speed is usually around 15.

What I have:
Freeze RG 2.56 Diff .045 4000 Grit Polished. COntrol/hook layout. Pin over ring finger CG in the palm.
Arson Hybrid RG 2.48 Diff .045 3000 grit Matte Control, arcing ball, no back end snap. Unsure of the layout, I'll have to look tonight.

What I'm considering:
Motiv Forza Redline RG 2.50 DIff .051 5000 Grit LSP. Thinking a leverage layout would be good on this one.
Storm IQ 30 RG 2.49 Diff .029 1500 grit Polished Thinking pin over ring finger slight CG kick for this one
Hammer Viral Solid RG 2.51 Diff .042


Thoughts?

[RobLV1]

I'm afraid your PSO is one of the old timers (or someone who learned from the old timers) who only look at the cover and ignore the core characteristics. To replace/compliment the freeze, look at the Storm Sky Rocket or the Brunswick LT 48.

[Amyers]

I would say all of the balls you are considering are somewhat to quite a bit stronger than a 2 year old freeze with a lot of games on it. If you want something in the same line as your Freeze I would suggest the Viral Solid out of what you have picked out I will second Rob's Lt-48 call and maybe add in the Storm Ride (Sky Rocket quite a bit stronger too in my opinion) as an option. If you want something stronger than the Redline or IQ 30 would work but at that point it's not replacing the Freeze it's giving you an angular option over the Arson Hybrid.

[Ptnomore]

See Right now, the Freeze is ALOT more angular than the Hybrid. It's surprising the hell out of me with it's motion. It's never snapped on the back end like that before. BUT, I don't know if that's a function of my form/release/control improvement in the 3 years or so since I last threw it, or that the current pattern is lending itself to that motion for that ball, or a little of both.

So, I was looking at the Forza and IQ 30, just for the increased motion over the hybrid and them seeming like they should give me the same motion, perhaps a touch stronger, than what i'm seeing the Freeze do now. When the lanes start forcing me left, I start losing the corner pins. So I'm thinking that something a little bit stronger, or similar but drilled stronger will help that and eliminate, or delay, that imminent game 3 ball change.

And now that you both mentioned it, I'm reminded that my PSO did also include the Storm Ride as one of his recommendations. I forgot it, probably because he didn't have one...and my mind tends to be sieve-like at times.

I like Motiv equip just because I'm stubborn and like to use different stuff than what everyone else is using. There's ALOT of Storm equip thrown at my house and it seems that the higher average house bowlers get every new piece as soon as Storm releases it. I also like Motiv and Hammer to support the American workers. And I liked Brunswick when the cores were coming from Motiv, so it was a natural progression for me. I only own one Storm ball, the original Natural, and I've steered clear of them since then for no other reason than I like to throw different equipment than everyone else.

I'm well into my 40's, and I've been that way since I was a kid. I had to have different bicycles, skateboards, baseball gloves, hockey sticks, etc. Even in my 30's when I got my first motorcycle, everyone else I ran with was buying crotch rockets, I got a Harley. Man...I didn't realize how crowded my head is with crap. I have no idea where this all comes from, or why I can't shake it. Neither here nor there for this forum though.

I'm probaly shooting myself in the foot for avoiding Storm for all these years, I know. So, I'll look into the Ride. I'll pay attention on Friday to where the Freeze exits the pin deck and we'll go from there.

I love this forum. SO much good info willfully shared. I can't thank you guys enough!

[JasonNJ]

I would say your form and release are probably better with is giving you more snap. Another ball you should consider is a C300 Blur, should be very similar to the Freeze and it comes in Pearl, Solid and Hybrid. Also you can find it on Ebay for about $60.

[Ptnomore]

OK. Help me understand your suggestions. I checked out the LT-48 and the Storm Ride. The LT-48 looks interesting and could give me that extra room to play deeper into the set. I totally get that. Although I never really looked into it much, I THOUGHT for whatever reason, that the LT-48 was a dry lane ball. Obviously, I was wrong. That ball looks really interesting.

The Storm Ride with the harder polished shell same as the Tropical line, and seems like it's meant for those late games, game 3 for me, or dryer winter nights when they turn the heat on. I have a Nail Smoke and Fire that fits that bill. Am I looking at it wrong? That just doesn't seem like a good match up to the Freeze that was designed for medium oil.

you guys are saying that the Ride and the LT are in the same line as the freeze and viral, but from what I'm seeing, the Viral seems like it should be a MUCH stronger ball than either of those. What am I missing?

[Amyers]

The
OK. Help me understand your suggestions. I checked out the LT-48 and the Storm Ride. The LT-48 looks interesting and could give me that extra room to play deeper into the set. I totally get that. Although I never really looked into it much, I THOUGHT for whatever reason, that the LT-48 was a dry lane ball. Obviously, I was wrong. That ball looks really interesting.

The Storm Ride with the harder polished shell same as the Tropical line, and seems like it's meant for those late games, game 3 for me, or dryer winter nights when they turn the heat on. I have a Nail Smoke and Fire that fits that bill. Am I looking at it wrong? That just doesn't seem like a good match up to the Freeze that was designed for medium oil.

you guys are saying that the Ride and the LT are in the same line as the freeze and viral, but from what I'm seeing, the Viral seems like it should be a MUCH stronger ball than either of those. What am I missing?

Actually if you look up the Freeze its listed as a medium to dry lane ball which is similar to what the Lt-48 and Ride are listed as. The oil classification manufactures give balls is subjective at best anyway and has as much to do with surface as anything else. The best clue is where it ranks in thier line up which with the freeze is toward the lower end of the scale lower mid line is what they call it but in reality the only ball below it is the scout which has a pancake core and doesn't really count. That doesn't make it a bad ball at all just means that it's more of a weaker cover stock which has it's advantages. The lt-48 and Ride fills similar spots in those manufacturers lineups. On this type of ball oil handling really not important as your throwing them to the dry spot and watching them come back anyway if there's not a dry spot your going to be using a different ball.

Really just depends on what your looking for. If I wanted a freeze replacement either of the balls listed above should work. If your looking for something to start the set with I would lean more towards the Redline. On THS patterns there is almost always dry outside so you can get away with using less agressive equipment as long as your comfortable getting the ball outside but the redline will give you more options to move into the oil a little more.

I haven't seen a Viral in person but I've looked at that ball quite a bit myself ant talked to my PSO about it and according to him it's less agressive than my Arson Low Flare.

[RobLV1]

OK. Help me understand your suggestions. I checked out the LT-48 and the Storm Ride. The LT-48 looks interesting and could give me that extra room to play deeper into the set. I totally get that. Although I never really looked into it much, I THOUGHT for whatever reason, that the LT-48 was a dry lane ball. Obviously, I was wrong. That ball looks really interesting.

The Storm Ride with the harder polished shell same as the Tropical line, and seems like it's meant for those late games, game 3 for me, or dryer winter nights when they turn the heat on. I have a Nail Smoke and Fire that fits that bill. Am I looking at it wrong? That just doesn't seem like a good match up to the Freeze that was designed for medium oil.

you guys are saying that the Ride and the LT are in the same line as the freeze and viral, but from what I'm seeing, the Viral seems like it should be a MUCH stronger ball than either of those. What am I missing?

I think that you would be well served by getting rid of the whole "weak ball," "strong ball" concept. Balls either hook early (cover more boards) or hook late (retain more energy for the pins). Here is a link to the bowling ball section of my web site: http://modern-bowling.com/Bowling-Coach-Bowling-Balls-Las-Vegas-NV.html. Look for the article entitled "Weak Ball, Strong Ball, Right Ball, Wrong Ball." In a nutshell, it asks the question: if you use a strong ball and it rolls out at 40', does it then become a weak ball? Conversely, if you use a weak ball and it retains the energy to obliterate the pins, does it then become a strong ball? I think that's what you are missing.

[fortheloveofbowling]

I think that you would be well served by getting rid of the whole "weak ball," "strong ball" concept. Balls either hook early (cover more boards) or hook late (retain more energy for the pins). Here is a link to the bowling ball section of my web site: http://modern-bowling.com/Bowling-Coach-Bowling-Balls-Las-Vegas-NV.html. Look for the article entitled "Weak Ball, Strong Ball, Right Ball, Wrong Ball." In a nutshell, it asks the question: if you use a strong ball and it rolls out at 40', does it then become a weak ball? Conversely, if you use a weak ball and it retains the energy to obliterate the pins, does it then become a strong ball? I think that's what you are missing.

What If the back ends are really flying and i use a STRONG ball to burn off energy to lay off on the back? Does that mean it is a weak ball and the right ball? On those same back ends the WEAK ball retains energy and over reacts on the back. Does that ball become a STRONG ball and the wrong ball? I understand what you have been trying to get at since i have been on these boards but that really complicates bowlers communicating with each other. Even if you you use your preferred less aggressive and more aggressive terminology you still run in to the same ball motion description issues.

You have to look at it in more extreme instances than a 10 board wide wall. Say i throw a Storm Tropical breeze and a Storm Lock on a 45 foot pattern and the Tropical doesn't move an inch and i can get a good motion from the Lock. That means the lock is a STRONG ball and the Tropical is neither aggressive, less aggressive, nor strong. It is WEAK. Compare it to a patch of ice and a tire with a chain on it and a bald tire. Having said all of that, i will agree that those universally accepted terms (weak and strong) utilized between bowlers exchanging information should really be clarified between the fronts and the backs in discussions. In situations where more experienced players are together that is pretty clear. Not trying to sabotage your silver level status i just think going away from the traditional terminology just further confuses things for some.

[Ptnomore]

I think that you would be well served by getting rid of the whole "weak ball," "strong ball" concept. Balls either hook early (cover more boards) or hook late (retain more energy for the pins).
Understood. I have read your discussions on that subject before, and it makes sense. Its a bad habit now. started reading that article that you posted above tonight. There's ALOT of info there to take in. It'll take me awhile to get through it and digest it. But I will. Wife and 4 kids at home with a long to-do list tend to hamper my afterwork activities sometimes.

So, that being said, looking at the numbers, I would expect the Viral to read the lane much earlier than the Ride, and the LT-48 to be similar to my Nail Smoke and Fire, which doesnt bounce off the dry so much, and Im assuming because it's designed to get down the lane when the lanes are dry, or the pattern is burnt? But watching the video's of the LT-48, that's obviously not the case. Is that purely a function of the pearl vs solid coverstock making that much of a difference with a very similar core?

[Amyers]

The difference between pearl and solid cover stocks is less than you might think. We tend to think of solids as earlier hooking and pearls as later but that's in large part to the surfaces we normally associate with those type of cover stocks. Today a ball manufacturer can tune a solid to get it farther down the lane or make a pearl more earlier rolling. In general solids will read more in the midlane and pearls will be longer but with similar surface preps those changes are minimal in my opinion. What you are seeing with the differences between the Nail Smoke and Fire and the LT-48 are more to do with the aggressiveness of the cover than they are with the differences between solid and pearl.

I'm sure that their will be some disagreement here but I've talked to some people deeply ingrained in the ball manufacturing business and anymore weather a ball is a solid, hybrid, or pearl is more aesthetics than anything else at this point.

[RobLV1]

Say i throw a Storm Tropical breeze and a Storm Lock on a 45 foot pattern and the Tropical doesn't move an inch and i can get a good motion from the Lock. That means the lock is a STRONG ball and the Tropical is neither aggressive, less aggressive, nor strong. It is WEAK. Compare it to a patch of ice and a tire with a chain on it and a bald tire. Having said all of that, i will agree that those universally accepted terms (weak and strong) utilized between bowlers exchanging information should really be clarified between the fronts and the backs in discussions. In situations where more experienced players are together that is pretty clear. Not trying to sabotage your silver level status i just think going away from the traditional terminology just further confuses things for some.

It's purely a matter of terminology and connotation. Using your own example of the Tropical Breeze and the Lock, is it really necessary to equate the Lock with strength, or is it just a matter of the Lock being the right ball for the 45' pattern? I know what you are saying about experienced players communicating, however most of the participants on this site are not at that level. Too many bowlers who have not reached that level mistakenly believe that buying a "strong" ball will help them to get the hook that they so desperately want. You and I both know that an overly aggressive ball will have the opposite effect for them. That is my reason for trying to change the traditional terminology. Using Aggressive vs. Non-aggressive works for bowlers at all levels, while Strong vs. Weak works for the select few who really understand ball motion.

[Ptnomore]

The difference between pearl and solid cover stocks is less than you might think. We tend to think of solids as earlier hooking and pearls as later but that's in large part to the surfaces we normally associate with those type of cover stocks. Today a ball manufacturer can tune a solid to get it farther down the lane or make a pearl more earlier rolling. In general solids will read more in the midlane and pearls will be longer but with similar surface preps those changes are minimal in my opinion. What you are seeing with the differences between the Nail Smoke and Fire and the LT-48 are more to do with the aggressiveness of the cover than they are with the differences between solid and pearl.

I'm sure that their will be some disagreement here but I've talked to some people deeply ingrained in the ball manufacturing business and anymore weather a ball is a solid, hybrid, or pearl is more aesthetics than anything else at this point.

That certainly muddy's the waters a bit. So now, the numbers mean less than the manufactures statement of each ball motion (smooth, angular) and oil typ (Heavy, Medium or dry). And I was trying to get away from that, since each individual bowlers talent and style affects what the ball motion is, and what oil volume is perceived.

I feel like I'm back in Calculus 3 for the 2nd time, again. I guess that would make it a 3rd time.

[RobLV1]

That certainly muddy's the waters a bit. So now, the numbers mean less than the manufactures statement of each ball motion (smooth, angular) and oil typ (Heavy, Medium or dry). And I was trying to get away from that, since each individual bowlers talent and style affects what the ball motion is, and what oil volume is perceived.

I feel like I'm back in Calculus 3 for the 2nd time, again. I guess that would make it a 3rd time.

I know for a fact that one manufacturer who shall remain nameless described a ball a certain way for no other reason that they felt they had a "hole" in their line of balls that needed to be filled. I believe that Ameyers is right on the money in terms of the differences between solids, pearls, and hybrids. If you take a look at the solids on the market, most are sold with dull finishes. Most pearls are sold with polished covers, and hybrids tend to come with OOB finishes that are dull, but with high grit finishes. One cannot help but wonder how much of the perceived differences between the cover types are really just the result of the finishes that are applied to them.

As I said earlier, look at the core numbers as they apply to your game and your lane conditions, use one or two layouts that work for you, and don't be afraid to change the surface as many times as it takes to get the reaction that you want.

[Amyers]

That certainly muddy's the waters a bit. So now, the numbers mean less than the manufactures statement of each ball motion (smooth, angular) and oil typ (Heavy, Medium or dry). And I was trying to get away from that, since each individual bowlers talent and style affects what the ball motion is, and what oil volume is perceived.

I feel like I'm back in Calculus 3 for the 2nd time, again. I guess that would make it a 3rd time.

Their are no numbers for cover stock. I didn't mean to try and dissuade you from looking at core numbers on the balls. I've seen a few different breakdowns but in general understand 2 things. Cover stock is about 70% of a balls reaction the remaining 30% are surface, core, and drilling. Also keep in mind on the front part of the lane what happens is 80% directed by the cover on the back part of the lane it's about 80% directed by the core. It can make you feel like it's calculus and there is no guarantee's on how you are going to match up with a ball. The best you can do is research look at those core numbers, watch video's, look at how the ball is placed in the manufactures lineup, talk with a qualified PSO about how that ball should match your game, and don't be afraid to adjust the cover. You do that you will find the ball is what you want most of the time and you will make better decisions than probably 80-90% of the people who buy bowling balls.

[RobLV1]

Their are no numbers for cover stock. I didn't mean to try and dissuade you from looking at core numbers on the balls. I've seen a few different breakdowns but in general understand 2 things. Cover stock is about 70% of a balls reaction the remaining 30% are surface, core, and drilling. Also keep in mind on the front part of the lane what happens is 80% directed by the cover on the back part of the lane it's about 80% directed by the core. It can make you feel like it's calculus and there is no guarantee's on how you are going to match up with a ball. The best you can do is research look at those core numbers, watch video's, look at how the ball is placed in the manufactures lineup, talk with a qualified PSO about how that ball should match your game, and don't be afraid to adjust the cover. You do that you will find the ball is what you want most of the time and you will make better decisions than probably 80-90% of the people who buy bowling balls.

I hate to disagree (not really!), but the 70% number that you quote is a carryover from the pre-modern era. 70% may be accurate in some cases, but it's a combination of cover material and surface, not just cover material. In terms of the importance of the core, it varies greatly, based on bowler's styles. There are only two factors involved in ball reaction: friction and resistence. Friction comes from the cover, and resistence is a result of the low RG. Bowlers with high ball speeds and rev rates rely primarily on friction. In their case, cover is probably closer to 90% than 70%. Bowlers with lower ball speeds and rev rates, however, need to be aware of the core resistence if they want to get a ball that will be effective for them. Resistence is closer to 40%-50% for them.

If you happened to see the US Open on TV a couple of weeks ago, notice that most of the bowlers on the show were using very aggressive bowling balls with low RG's. The one exception was Pete Weber who was throwing a Storm Rocket (much higher RG) for the simple reason that his lower ball speed made it a better choice for him. Often companies have come out with low RG balls with polished surfaces and promoted them as "going long." The one thing that these balls have in common is that they tend to disappear as quickly as they appeared.

[Amyers]

I hate to disagree (not really!), but the 70% number that you quote is a carryover from the pre-modern era. 70% may be accurate in some cases, but it's a combination of cover material and surface, not just cover material. In terms of the importance of the core, it varies greatly, based on bowler's styles. There are only two factors involved in ball reaction: friction and resistence. Friction comes from the cover, and resistence is a result of the low RG. Bowlers with high ball speeds and rev rates rely primarily on friction. In their case, cover is probably closer to 90% than 70%. Bowlers with lower ball speeds and rev rates, however, need to be aware of the core resistence if they want to get a ball that will be effective for them. Resistence is closer to 40%-50% for them.

If you happened to see the US Open on TV a couple of weeks ago, notice that most of the bowlers on the show were using very aggressive bowling balls with low RG's. The one exception was Pete Weber who was throwing a Storm Rocket (much higher RG) for the simple reason that his lower ball speed made it a better choice for him. Often companies have come out with low RG balls with polished surfaces and promoted them as "going long." The one thing that these balls have in common is that they tend to disappear as quickly as they appeared.

You are probably correct with lower speed bowlers being more effected by core numbers than higher speed bowlers. My 70% number was just for approximate sake. I have to disagree with you about the Low Rg polished balls "disappearing quickly" though. Look at the Mastermind line (I admit they raised the rg in some of the newer ones but I still consider 2.50 pretty low) a low rg core quite a few of which have been polished that have been very popular another good instance is the Storm Optimus. Seems like to me the ball manufactures are working some magic with low rg balls that can get down the lane. In the past you are correct those balls didn't work well but in the newer stuff somethings different. If you haven't seen it yet check out the Melee Hook another ball with a low rg (and some surface amazingly enough) that gets down the lane.

[RobLV1]

You are probably correct with lower speed bowlers being more effected by core numbers than higher speed bowlers. My 70% number was just for approximate sake. I have to disagree with you about the Low Rg polished balls "disappearing quickly" though. Look at the Mastermind line (I admit they raised the rg in some of the newer ones but I still consider 2.50 pretty low) a low rg core quite a few of which have been polished that have been very popular another good instance is the Storm Optimus. Seems like to me the ball manufactures are working some magic with low rg balls that can get down the lane. In the past you are correct those balls didn't work well but in the newer stuff somethings different. If you haven't seen it yet check out the Melee Hook another ball with a low rg (and some surface amazingly enough) that gets down the lane.

The only balls in the Mastermind series that were polished were the pearls and hybrid. While a few lower rev players have had some success with the Genius, it was only those with sufficient ball speed. Mostly they are used by the higher rev guys in their unique rendition of "balling down." The main ball to which I was referring was the Hammer First Blood which I saw purchased by several lower speed senior bowlers, only to be put away once they watched their averages nosedive. Those with higher ball speeds could use them. The same is seemingly happening with the Special Opps.

[Amyers]

The only balls in the Mastermind series that were polished were the pearls and hybrid. While a few lower rev players have had some success with the Genius, it was only those with sufficient ball speed. Mostly they are used by the higher rev guys in their unique rendition of "balling down." The main ball to which I was referring was the Hammer First Blood which I saw purchased by several lower speed senior bowlers, only to be put away once they watched their averages nosedive. Those with higher ball speeds could use them. The same is seemingly happening with the Special Opps.

The Genius, Scholar, and Intellect were all polished to some extent which is 3 out of 5 of the line and my Einstein (supposedly 3k) sure does look like it's been hit with some rubbing compound or something it's glossier OOB than any other 3k ball I ever owned. The Genius was ok, the Intellect was too much for most but the speed dominate, the Scholar is probably one of the most highly used balls in my area seems like everyone has one. I agree with the you on the First Blood and the Special Ops too much ball for those who lack ball speed but we can easily find instances of bowlers buying too strong of balls regardless of Rg it just makes it more obvious. What I was getting at is the proliferation of sub 2.5 rg balls that can get down the lane that I don't think existed even a couple of years ago.

[Ptnomore]

So, Rob, I've gotten into the articles that you asked me to read. TONS of info there that's going to take me awhile to get through, and digest.

But, in the "misses" article... alot of "Huh!'s" and "Hmmm's coming from me reading that one. Definitely making me think and giving me a few "ah-HAH!" moments.

Assuming the lanes I bowl at stick with the existing light to medium volume and long (for a THS) pattern, and knowing that the only thing I have that works well is the Columbia 300 Freeze, and to a lesser extent (much less miss room) the Arson Hybrid, am I on the right track looking at the Forza Redline and LT-48 to compliment the Freeze, or would I be better served picking up both Forza's (Forza and Forza Redline) with same core and slightly different coverstocks?

or should I be able to do something with my Brunswick Wicked Siege or Motiv Cruel Intent that would better compliment the Freeze without me having to buy more equipment? A few weeks ago, I rolled a 700 with the Wicked Siege, but I haven't been able to get it to work since then. I found out that the house changed the viscosity of the conditioner that they were using then. I haven't played with the surface yet to see if I can get it in there again. I've played with the surface on the Cruel Intent, and I'm not getting anywhere on this pattern with that ball. With the Wicked, I can get it to the pocket, but I have no room for error with it. The Cruel hits like Nerf ball.

I really like the look of that LT-48, now that I understand what it could do for me, and at least the possible versatility of that ball.

[Aslan]

Here's what I don't understand.

If you take out the variables, and just focus on cover. Same surface and RG in this example...

Most bowlers would want it to go long. So a solid wouldn't interest them...unless they have no revs or a super high speed...or are playing in very heavy, non-THS conditions.

Yet the other thing 95% of bowlers ask for is "snap". Right?

PSO: "What kinda ball are ya lookin for?"
95%: "I want it to go long and snap into the pocket."

Well...again...why would you want a solid...it's not designed to "snap". I guess you could polish the daylights out of it....but why bother with that when there's a pearl version with the same core?

And what are the big problems in todays game (from a technology point of view)? Balls that don't retain enough energy to carry corner pins. At the highest level, that's the difference between winning and losing....most miss room and carrying corner pins. They aren't thinking (like I am), "hopefully I can find the pocket today." Not even Tom Daugherty!! :mad: :cool: <-- that was mean.

So if the IDEAL BALL goes long (high RG, shiny cover) and SNAPS (axis tilt, axis rotation, powerful core, skid/flip ball)...why buy a solid or a ball with a low RG? Won't likely be dead before it ever hits the pocket (unless you're throwing it 21-23mph)??

I dunno. Still trying to process all this. We need Chris Barnes to come in and post his thoughts...cuz I'm sure he has nothing better to do around holiday time with the WSOB coming up...

[RobLV1]

Aslan: Once again, you have this thing about cover material that is clouding your thinking. Personally, I have tried several balls to fill the "go long and snap" hole in my arsenal: Soul Mate (pearl), LT 48 (solid), Gold Rhino Pro (pearl), Platinum Ringer (pearl), and Meanstreak Brawler (hybrid). Of these five balls, the two that "snap" the hardest are the LT 48 (solid), and the Meanstreak Brawler (hybrid). While the Soul Mate (pearl) goes the longest, the cover material is less reactive, so it doesn't give me as much backend (which is a good think on fried lanes sometimes). The other two pearls, the Rhino Pro and the Platinum Ringer I find to be a little "squirty," so they remain on my shelf while the other three often accompany me to the lanes.

Ignoring your reference to a low RG solid, let me say that various conditions allow me to use low RG balls in various circumstances: Mastermind Intellect, Mastermind Einstein, Mastermind Scholar, and Nirvana, despite the fact that I have neither high rev rate, nor high ball speed. So when do I use them? The answer is simple: I use them when they work, and I use either mid-range or long, snappy balls when they don't.

My recommendation for you: pick one ball each for the two houses where you bowl and, without cheaping out and trying to do it yourself, try different surfaces until you find one that works for you. Once you find that, leave it alone, and start on a second ball for each house. As we've discussed on severeal occasions, your over-thinking is your worst enemy. Try using your eyes instead of your brain to find the balls that work for you.

[RobLV1]

Ptnomore: Looking at the specs on all the balls that you've mentioned, I really think that the LT-48 is your best bet. While you did not specify which Freeze you are using, my own experience with them shows a much less reactive cover than you'll find on the LT. Before you purchase, you might try putting a heavy polish on the Cruel Intent, but I don't think it will give you as much reactivity as the LT.

[Ptnomore]

Ptnomore: Looking at the specs on all the balls that you've mentioned, I really think that the LT-48 is your best bet. While you did not specify which Freeze you are using, my own experience with them shows a much less reactive cover than you'll find on the LT. Before you purchase, you might try putting a heavy polish on the Cruel Intent, but I don't think it will give you as much reactivity as the LT.

My Freeze is the original. Blue/Green 4000 grit with polish. I REALLY appreciate the time and info that you and Amyers have provided in this thread. I'm sure you've answered many of the questions over and over. I'll be spending a lot of time with those articles on the link that you provided.

Thanks to both of you!

I hear what Aslan is saying. I used to be one of those, when I first got back into this sport a few years ago. I wanted that ball to do what every one else's was doing, without knowing how to do it. Even info in this thread gave me more info on that subject that I didn't have before.

But now,I know I (personally) don't need a ball that goes long and snap. I have one. And it doesn't work. The pattern is already long, so a ball that is designed to go long is not going to have enough room at the end to "snap". Plus, I'm finding by my own experience and watching others, that on this pattern, the skid/flip motion is far less controllable and forgiving.

For various reasons, I'm not nearly good enough to hit the same board over and over. I'm very lucky if I can hit within +/-2 boards of my target at the arrows time and time again. Over a complete game, that target is a blur about 10 boards wide with my misses. I fight the simplest of errors in concentration.

Rob, we talked about surface changing the OOB surface before bowling with it. i've never done that before, and I understand completely the benefits of it. So for my first one, For the LT-48, where do I start? Take it down and bring it back up to the OOB condition (500, compound, polish)? or since I'll be using it on what I think is medium volume long pattern, add some surface to it, say 4000 or leave it at compound?

[Amyers]

Here's what I don't understand.

If you take out the variables, and just focus on cover. Same surface and RG in this example...

Most bowlers would want it to go long. So a solid wouldn't interest them...unless they have no revs or a super high speed...or are playing in very heavy, non-THS conditions.

Yet the other thing 95% of bowlers ask for is "snap". Right?

PSO: "What kinda ball are ya lookin for?"
95%: "I want it to go long and snap into the pocket."

Well...again...why would you want a solid...it's not designed to "snap". I guess you could polish the daylights out of it....but why bother with that when there's a pearl version with the same core?

And what are the big problems in todays game (from a technology point of view)? Balls that don't retain enough energy to carry corner pins. At the highest level, that's the difference between winning and losing....most miss room and carrying corner pins. They aren't thinking (like I am), "hopefully I can find the pocket today." Not even Tom Daugherty!! :mad: :cool: <-- that was mean.

So if the IDEAL BALL goes long (high RG, shiny cover) and SNAPS (axis tilt, axis rotation, powerful core, skid/flip ball)...why buy a solid or a ball with a low RG? Won't likely be dead before it ever hits the pocket (unless you're throwing it 21-23mph)??

I dunno. Still trying to process all this. We need Chris Barnes to come in and post his thoughts...cuz I'm sure he has nothing better to do around holiday time with the WSOB coming up...

Try asking some of the 220+ guys in your house if the ask for everything drilled long and strong I bet they don't. There are times for different motions. Try throwing a skid/snap ball on a pattern that plays over under. Play a high surface Pearl on a heavy 45 ft pattern. Play a solid with low oil in the heads or mids. None of those are good options.

I primarily throw three balls right now. Mastermind Einstein 2.50, Virtual Gravity Nano Pearl 2.48, and Arson Low Flare 2.48. I use the Einstein-3000 grit as my bench mark, if I need flipper the Virtual Gravity Pearl- 1500 polished comes out, if I need less movement more control its the Arson Low Flare (this ball I change the grits on between 2k and 4K). Similar RG but different motions because of surface, cover, core design, and drilling. Pretty much any day on fresh conditions I can hit the pocket with any of the three it's just figuring out which is the most consistent and provides the best carry.

[Amyers]

H
My Freeze is the original. Blue/Green 4000 grit with polish. I REALLY appreciate the time and info that you and Amyers have provided in this thread. I'm sure you've answered many of the questions over and over. I'll be spending a lot of time with those articles on the link that you provided.

Thanks to both of you!

I hear what Aslan is saying. I used to be one of those, when I first got back into this sport a few years ago. I wanted that ball to do what every one else's was doing, without knowing how to do it. Even info in this thread gave me more info on that subject that I didn't have before.

But now,I know I (personally) don't need a ball that goes long and snap. I have one. And it doesn't work. The pattern is already long, so a ball that is designed to go long is not going to have enough room at the end to "snap". Plus, I'm finding by my own experience and watching others, that on this pattern, the skid/flip motion is far less controllable and forgiving.

For various reasons, I'm not nearly good enough to hit the same board over and over. I'm very lucky if I can hit within +/-2 boards of my target at the arrows time and time again. Over a complete game, that target is a blur about 10 boards wide with my misses. I fight the simplest of errors in concentration.

Rob, we talked about surface changing the OOB surface before bowling with it. i've never done that before, and I understand completely the benefits of it. So for my first one, For the LT-48, where do I start? Take it down and bring it back up to the OOB condition (500, compound, polish)? or since I'll be using it on what I think is medium volume long pattern, add some surface to it, say 4000 or leave it at compound?

If your going to regularly have the ball resurfaced (every 20-25 games) I'd start with a surface that I knew I could duplicate and get back start at 4K. If you plan on resurfacing only when the ball needs it lol (50-100 games) then just try it out like it comes and adjust from there. Truthfully myself I only take my balls to be resurfaced about every 50 games especially on the polished stuff on my lower grit stuff I refresh it by hand every 6-10 games and take it to the proshop every 30-40.

[RobLV1]

For my LT-48, I use a 500/2000/Polish combination that works pretty well. This is a combination that I use on a lot of balls, so it could be that it just works pretty well for me. I like the fact that you want to put a surface on the ball that you can duplicate rather than just going with the OOB finish and pulling your hair out when it comes time for resurfacing.

[Ptnomore]

H

If your going to regularly have the ball resurfaced (every 20-25 games) I'd start with a surface that I knew I could duplicate and get back start at 4K. If you plan on resurfacing only when the ball needs it lol (50-100 games) then just try it out like it comes and adjust from there. Truthfully myself I only take my balls to be resurfaced about every 50 games especially on the polished stuff on my lower grit stuff I refresh it by hand every 6-10 games and take it to the proshop every 30-40.

I'm realizing that both teams that I'm on, are increasingly depending on my ability to score big, as a few of the other team mates ability seems to be waining with age and hard headedness. So, I'm beginning to take at least the Mens league a bit more seriously at risk of a reduction in "fun", which I promised my wife I wouldn't do. I think I can manage it without having it ruin my week.

So, I have begun, in the last few weeks at least, to recognize that the bowling balls needs a weekly maintenance surface hit, at a minimum, if I'm going to stay consistant, or improve. I'm also MUCH more interested in how slight surface adjustments can help find more miss room, or widen the usage envelope, and paying more attention to what the ball is doing, and not what those around me, or what my preconceived thoughts say I should be doing or throwing. With what I found by using that "old Freeze" last week, all of what I thought I knew has gone out the window, or is at least back open for discussion.

I was taught how to bowl by my Dad when I was a kid, throwing rubber and plastic in the 70's and 80's. I quit when I was 16 because I aged out of the youth league that I was bowling in, and there was no school team and really no other option. So coming back into it around the age of 40, I have alot of old info, some of which is still supported and preached by the elders that I bowl with, that is really null and void in today's game.

I'm hampered by old injuries, an arthritic back with degenerative disc disease (yup, young for that, I know), and tendonitus seemingly everywhere. So when I can string together 6 X's in a row, I'm about as happy with my game as I can possibly be. I know that a 300 for me at this point is pretty close to an impossibility. That thought keeps me humble and appreciative of those mid 600 series, and keeps me from getting too upset when I bowl a low 5.

Luckily I have a wife that understands that I need this, and supports my "obsession" with bowling, and doesn't come down on me for the occasional new ball, or a couple of hours spent in front of the spinner.

I'll be ordering that LT-48 tomorrow. I should have it ready to go by Tuesday, and probably give it a test run next Friday. I'll let ya's know how it goes. Thanks!!!

[Amyers]

I'm realizing that both teams that I'm on, are increasingly depending on my ability to score big, as a few of the other team mates ability seems to be waining with age and hard headedness. So, I'm beginning to take at least the Mens league a bit more seriously at risk of a reduction in "fun", which I promised my wife I wouldn't do. I think I can manage it without having it ruin my week.

So, I have begun, in the last few weeks at least, to recognize that the bowling balls needs a weekly maintenance surface hit, at a minimum, if I'm going to stay consistant, or improve. I'm also MUCH more interested in how slight surface adjustments can help find more miss room, or widen the usage envelope, and paying more attention to what the ball is doing, and not what those around me, or what my preconceived thoughts say I should be doing or throwing. With what I found by using that "old Freeze" last week, all of what I thought I knew has gone out the window, or is at least back open for discussion.

I was taught how to bowl by my Dad when I was a kid, throwing rubber and plastic in the 70's and 80's. I quit when I was 16 because I aged out of the youth league that I was bowling in, and there was no school team and really no other option. So coming back into it around the age of 40, I have alot of old info, some of which is still supported and preached by the elders that I bowl with, that is really null and void in today's game.

I'm hampered by old injuries, an arthritic back with degenerative disc disease (yup, young for that, I know), and tendonitus seemingly everywhere. So when I can string together 6 X's in a row, I'm about as happy with my game as I can possibly be. I know that a 300 for me at this point is pretty close to an impossibility. That thought keeps me humble and appreciative of those mid 600 series, and keeps me from getting too upset when I bowl a low 5.

Luckily I have a wife that understands that I need this, and supports my "obsession" with bowling, and doesn't come down on me for the occasional new ball, or a couple of hours spent in front of the spinner.

I'll be ordering that LT-48 tomorrow. I should have it ready to go by Tuesday, and probably give it a test run next Friday. I'll let ya's know how it goes. Thanks!!!

Your situation sounds similar to my own when I came back a little over 2 years ago. Everyday is a learning experience and more often than not relearning things I thought I knew. I'm still not where I want average wise but I'm throwing it pretty well and being competitive in my scratch league so it can be done.

[Aslan]

Try using your eyes instead of your brain to find the balls that work for you.
Dang it. At 41, my eyes aren't in the best shape. Right now I'm trying to get used to no-line trifocals...so the pins are only in focus if I look through the proper 1/3 of the lenses. DOHT!

[Ptnomore]

So tonight at league, (mixed low average league, alot of straight ball sub 140 average men and women), the lanes were hooking! Volume was way light. Started woth the Freeze standing on 15 throwing over 6 and 7. By Frame 5 of the first game, I was standing on 25 throwing over 15, 16, 17, 18,...couldnt keep it from going left. Grabbed my Natural. Hit soft and left alot of 10's. So I did something I never did before, buy going on something I read in one of Rob's articles, that basically said, if the lanes are hooking, throw a ball that hooks, not one that doesn't. So I grabbed my Arson Hybrid. It was money, as long as I kept the speed up and let the ball go. By 3rd game, was standing in front of the ball return, throwing over 20 out to 8 to 10, and it was striking. I've NEVER been able to strike from there before. But its because I wasnt using the right equipment, usually much stronger than the Hybrid.

And of course, this just a few hours after I ordererd the new ball, I find out that by Monday, they will be going back to the pattern and oil viscosity that they were using 3 to 4 weeks ago that my old Wicked Siege was working on. @*#&$!

We'll see. Im still looking forward to trying the new ball. I should still be able to use it. From conversation tonight with a respected bowler that still works at the lanes and provides input to the owner and lane machine operator, I found out that 3 weeks ago, they were using a 30 viscosity oil. For the last couple of weeks, they were using a 45. But that apparently caused too much carry down and issues with the ball return flippers. No idea what the hell they did to the lanes tonight though. It was ridiculous.

Funny thing though, one of those no thumb bowler guys asked to use my Urethane ball (Natural), cuz he couldnt keep his ball on the lane, I obliged. But, I didnt realize at the time that he was a lefty. I watched him throw the next 4 strikes. Once I told my team Captain what was going on, the two of us laughed like hell with every strike that guy threw. It just wasnt natural. It made NO sense. After he finished his 2xx game, I asked him if he by any chance flipped it so the thumb hole was in front of his fingers, or if it was in his palm. Of course, it was in his palm.

That ball shouldnt have moved like that for him. The weight block is backwards for him. Once again, my eyes gave my brain a work out at the lanes, but along with some good beer, provided a lot of laughs.

Was a good night at the lanes tonight.

[Ptnomore]

I got the LT-48 drilled up on Friday night. I decided to drill it pin under ring finger to tame the back end. All of my other equipment is pin over ring finger, or pin in the ring finger.

I hoped to get the ball before that so I could resurface it right away, but I struggled to find a ball in my bag that worked the first game while the -48 was gettig drillled. Started using it in the 2nd frame of the second game. By the 5th frame, I had the thumb opened enough, and added 3 pieces of tape and really was able to see this ball work. It's money. Very consistant, allowed me to get out of the usual down and in or straight bowlers lines, plenty of miss room, and it hit hard! Something that I havent been able to get my current equipment to do consistantly this season. Im going to refinish it before Tuesday night, and see what It'll do on the fresh. Loving this ball choice though. Thanks Rob and Amyers for talking me through it and opening my eyes to that ball!

[Ptnomore]

Well, last night, the pattern was different again. They went back to the week 3 pattern, light and short. So the LT just didn't have it. In Practice, I was able to throw a good 10-12 balls, and I tried 3 balls, over 2-3 lines each. The Polished Wicked Siege gave me the best look and most miss room. I had 5 boards with my feet, and 10 boards at the arrows. 236 first game.

Second game I struggled with transition a bit. Had 3 splits from pocket hits, that I could not convert. 176 2nd game.

3rd game, the lanes were REALLY hooking, and I used some of Robs advice..."If the lanes are hooking, throw a ball that hooks". So, normally in the 3rd game I'd always go with what I was taught as a kid and still hear on the lanes now even after the conversion from wood to Synthetics this summer, and that was that I'd ball down to my Polished pearl and move back to the right.

Last night, I grabbed my Arson Hybrid with the 3000 grit matte surface, and moved left. It was SO pretty, when I hit my mark. By then, my lack of sleep was catching up to me, I was dragging. Drifting, losing strength in my wrist and couldn't keep it cupped through the swing, etc. Still banged out a 214.

I'm getting there. And all this stuff I'm reading is started to click.

We did well as a team. We did much better than we have in over a month. But the team we bowled were ridiculous. I think they could have been bowling with tennis balls and the pins would still go down for them. We lost by 100+ every game. You'll have days like this though.

[dougb]

I got the LT-48 drilled up on Friday night. I decided to drill it pin under ring finger to tame the back end. All of my other equipment is pin over ring finger, or pin in the ring finger.

I hoped to get the ball before that so I could resurface it right away, but I struggled to find a ball in my bag that worked the first game while the -48 was gettig drillled. Started using it in the 2nd frame of the second game. By the 5th frame, I had the thumb opened enough, and added 3 pieces of tape and really was able to see this ball work. It's money. Very consistant, allowed me to get out of the usual down and in or straight bowlers lines, plenty of miss room, and it hit hard! Something that I havent been able to get my current equipment to do consistantly this season. Im going to refinish it before Tuesday night, and see what It'll do on the fresh. Loving this ball choice though. Thanks Rob and Amyers for talking me through it and opening my eyes to that ball!

The LT-48 is hands down my favorite ball and gets more use than anything. Really an amazing THS ball. It is so good I'm thinking about getting another and drilling it pin down to go with my pin up one! And maybe another to stash in the closet!

The other ball in the Vintage series - the Gold Rhino Pro - doesn't even compare in my opinion.