I would 💝 to win 🎳haywire

[Bellanbleu]

Hi everyone! My husband &I started bowling together. We are looking to join a league soon. I have been reading reviews on balls, the haywire has really good reviews, I would love to win one!! 🎳🎳🎳🎳🎁🎅💃

[JasonNJ]

Welcome to the board and good luck. I won a Haywire 3 weeks ago and so far I'm loving the ball.

[ChuckR]

I just looked up the Haywire and it seems to be a very good replacement for the Mastermind Genius.

[Jessiewoodard57]

Welcome to the board and good luck. I won a Haywire 3 weeks ago and so far I'm loving the ball.

Jason did you get your haywire set up to work for you? If so what did you have to do to it?

[JasonNJ]

I left it OOB finish and just moved about 2 boards from my normal target and it's been working well for me. Been striking even with light hits. I bowled a 191 and 212 with the haywire last night in my league.

[Kells]

I've seen a few people use them in league. It really needs oil to be most effective

[Blomer]

I threw my 300 with it last week. I have no problems using it in all 3 games.

[Aslan]

I just looked up the Haywire and it seems to be a very good replacement for the Mastermind Genius.

I can think of Zero ways a Rotogrip, sanded solid cover, symmetric core, HP3, low RG ball would be a good replacement for a high RG, Brunswick, assymetric, polished hybrid cover, Pro-level Mastermind Genius.

Unless by good replacement...you mean someone that can't control a Mastermind Genius and wants something much weaker that is going to hook sooner. Or maybe a mid-rev, mid-speed player that can't maximize the potential of the Genius. Or someone that wants to save money...although the Genius is a bit older now...I'm sure depending on the seller...might be a wash. So..???? :confused:

But...I'm also biased that I've been very unimpressed by Rotogrips mid-level products, the color of this ball looks like blueberry vomit, and everyone I've seen throw it...miserable results. In contrast, the Mastermind Genius was probably one of the balls I've seen most back when I tried my luck at tournaments...and most of those folks did quite well using it.

[Cajun]

I look at it like Bowhunting.

Just because its pretty and costs alot doesnt mean its for you.

With bows you gotta shoot as many bows as you can to see what fits you. many bows feel far better than others and have the cheapest rice tag while some people the most expensive bow with all the bells and whistles works est for them. its a try before you buy kind of thing.

Perhaps the Haywire works better for him than the Genius does...

not trying to ruffle feathers or catch attitude.. not my intention at all. I just look at things differently

[Amyers]

I can think of Zero ways a Rotogrip, sanded solid cover, symmetric core, HP3, low RG ball would be a good replacement for a high RG, Brunswick, assymetric, polished hybrid cover, Pro-level Mastermind Genius.

Unless by good replacement...you mean someone that can't control a Mastermind Genius and wants something much weaker that is going to hook sooner. Or maybe a mid-rev, mid-speed player that can't maximize the potential of the Genius. Or someone that wants to save money...although the Genius is a bit older now...I'm sure depending on the seller...might be a wash. So..???? :confused:

But...I'm also biased that I've been very unimpressed by Rotogrips mid-level products, the color of this ball looks like blueberry vomit, and everyone I've seen throw it...miserable results. In contrast, the Mastermind Genius was probably one of the balls I've seen most back when I tried my luck at tournaments...and most of those folks did quite well using it.

The RG on the genius and the haywire are similar and the mastermind line is only slightly asymmetric. If you polished the haywire they probably are somewhat close.

Just because you had the driller gut your Asylum trying to make it 3rd in your line up doesn't make toto grip balls weak.

[NewToBowling]

Keep in mind once a ball is drilled it becomes asymetrical

[Aslan]

Perhaps the Haywire works better for him than the Genius does...
Chuck was saying it was a good replacement for a Mastermind Genius yet the two balls from a specification and manufacturer expectations would be completely different. You're correct...if the person was saying, "The Mastermind Genius doesn't work, I don't know why, of every ball in the universe...what is an example of one available for purchase that might react positively?" Then, yes....the Haywire is a ball that is virtually nothing like the Mastermind Genius...so merely by eliminating the Genius...you are now potentially one ball closer to a better reaction/game.

I was just stating what I stated because I found that evaluation by Chuck to be perplexing and was hoping he'd explain his point of view. I know he's very experienced with ball technology, drilling, bowling, etc... so I'm assuming he must have a reason.


I can think of Zero ways a Rotogrip, sanded solid cover, symmetric core, HP3, low RG ball would be a good replacement for a high RG, Brunswick, assymetric, polished hybrid cover, Pro-level Mastermind Genius.
Again. Facts are facts. Conjecture is conjecture. The above are facts and are indisputable.


The RG on the genius and the haywire are similar and the mastermind line is only slightly asymmetric. If you polished the haywire they probably are somewhat close.
If I spray scented deodorizer on a pile of poo...I can make it smell like a flower....that doesn't make it a flower.

Yes...you can get every ball ever made and that ever will be made...by the process of a small amount to a large amount of drilling and surfacing...to react in a similar fashion. Bowling ball companies would prefer that not be broadcasted....since their livelihood depends on convincing you there is something worth $200 that you should pay for. Very few companies advertise with the Amyers statement of "Buy Brunswick!! It can be polished to behave as weakly as a Rotogrip Haywire." Or "Buy Rotogrip!! It can be drilled in a way to almost hook as early as a Brunswick!"

My point, with sarcasm added for humor and entertainment, is that the ORIGINAL question was about what would be a good replacement for a Mastermind Genius and the response was, "A Haywire would be a good replacement....etc..." As I stated above, I was simply wondering what Chuck meant....since the FACTS are that the balls are nothing like each other. YES...if the question was, "I have a MM Genius....but I hate it because it goes longer than I want and moves way more on the backend than I want....what would be an improvement for me?"....then okay.....now we have an entire of universe of interesting opinions and educated guesses. But that wasn't the question.

[Amyers]

Chuck was saying it was a good replacement for a Mastermind Genius yet the two balls from a specification and manufacturer expectations would be completely different. You're correct...if the person was saying, "The Mastermind Genius doesn't work, I don't know why, of every ball in the universe...what is an example of one available for purchase that might react positively?" Then, yes....the Haywire is a ball that is virtually nothing like the Mastermind Genius...so merely by eliminating the Genius...you are now potentially one ball closer to a better reaction/game.

I was just stating what I stated because I found that evaluation by Chuck to be perplexing and was hoping he'd explain his point of view. I know he's very experienced with ball technology, drilling, bowling, etc... so I'm assuming he must have a reason.


Again. Facts are facts. Conjecture is conjecture. The above are facts and are indisputable.


If I spray scented deodorizer on a pile of poo...I can make it smell like a flower....that doesn't make it a flower.

Yes...you can get every ball ever made and that ever will be made...by the process of a small amount to a large amount of drilling and surfacing...to react in a similar fashion. Bowling ball companies would prefer that not be broadcasted....since their livelihood depends on convincing you there is something worth $200 that you should pay for. Very few companies advertise with the Amyers statement of "Buy Brunswick!! It can be polished to behave as weakly as a Rotogrip Haywire." Or "Buy Rotogrip!! It can be drilled in a way to almost hook as early as a Brunswick!"

My point, with sarcasm added for humor and entertainment, is that the ORIGINAL question was about what would be a good replacement for a Mastermind Genius and the response was, "A Haywire would be a good replacement....etc..." As I stated above, I was simply wondering what Chuck meant....since the FACTS are that the balls are nothing like each other. YES...if the question was, "I have a MM Genius....but I hate it because it goes longer than I want and moves way more on the backend than I want....what would be an improvement for me?"....then okay.....now we have an entire of universe of interesting opinions and educated guesses. But that wasn't the question.

First off I don't think anybody that's ever thrown a Haywire or seen it thrown by someone who can bowl would call it weak. The ball has the same cover as the hyper cell. Which I believe you've been a fan of in the past and may be a lot of things but weak isn't it

Second I wasn't aware that changing the surface of a ball was akin to going to never never land. Honestly the cover is stronger on the Haywire than the MM Genius and the core in the Haywire is a little less aggressive. The MM core is only .15 asymmetrical so not a huge deal. Really polished they should be somewhat close. My personal guess would be the haywire will be a little stronger

[Aslan]

My personal guess would be the haywire will be a little stronger

According to bowlingball.com's PerfecScale Rating system; which I've found to be true more often than not...

Rotogrip Haywire: 197
Mastermind Genius: 230

That's not "minor". Most high end ball are 200+ The Hyper Cell is 226.

I'm not saying the higher the number the better the ball...because if you have all 220-250 balls...you're gonna have some really bad 3rd games! But to compare a 197 to a 230...it may be a lot of things....but stronger ain't one of em. That's my opinion.

[NewToBowling]

Even Rob agrees the Perfect scale is basically rubbish

[Amyers]

According to bowlingball.com's PerfecScale Rating system; which I've found to be true more often than not...

Rotogrip Haywire: 197
Mastermind Genius: 230

That's not "minor". Most high end ball are 200+ The Hyper Cell is 226.

I'm not saying the higher the number the better the ball...because if you have all 220-250 balls...you're gonna have some really bad 3rd games! But to compare a 197 to a 230...it may be a lot of things....but stronger ain't one of em. That's my opinion.

They also rate the Intellect at 231 I can tell you for sure the intellect is much stronger than the Genius I know multiple people that throw both. As far as the number go we are supposed to believe the Nucleus core is worth 29 points versus the core in the disturbed. Great now I'm arguing someone else's fictional strength scale lol. unless someone is going to buy it and try both we will probably never really know.

[Aslan]

Even Rob agrees the Perfect scale is basically rubbish
Rob thinks lots of things are rubbish.


They also rate the Intellect at 231 I can tell you for sure the intellect is much stronger than the Genius I know multiple people that throw both. As far as the number go we are supposed to believe the Nucleus core is worth 29 points versus the core in the disturbed. Great now I'm arguing someone else's fictional strength scale lol. unless someone is going to buy it and try both we will probably never really know.
But see, that's my point. I'm not saying PerfectScale is the best way to determine ball strength. It's not. As Rob and others point out regularly, WHERE the ball hooks is more important than HOW MUCH. PerfectScale measures "how much".

Now, are there better ways to evaluate "how much"? I haven't seen one. I've 'heard' various unproven theories such as:
- It's all about RG
- It's all about cover material
- It's all about surface
- It's all about the manufacturer

All 4 theories have merit...just as I feel PerfectScale has merit...but absolutely ZERO have been proven...other than surface (see USBC robot video) to some degree.

From my PERSONAL results...PerfectScale trumps cover material and to a lesser degree trumps manufacturer and RG. PrefectScale can't trump surface manipulation because that's done after you've purchased the ball so it can only factor in the OOB finish.

So which or what combination of those factors should be used when assembling an arsenal? For my last two arsenals, they look like this:

Arsenal #1
I thought it would go Rhythm, Bullet Train, Encounter, Encounter, Slingshot. Why?

Cover stocks: Solid, Hybrid, Pearl, Pearl, Pearl (5/5 stars, ideal)
RGs: 2.50, 2.55, 2.51, 2.51, 2.544 (4/5 stars, highest RG 2nd in progression)
Manufactuers: EBI, 900G, EBI, EBI, Brunswick (4/5 stars, strongest cover manufacturer last in progression)
PerfectScale: ~200, 222.8, 203.8, 203.8, 157 (4/5 stars, Bullet Train rated significantly higher but #2)

Results: The pro shop operator and coach moved the Bullet Train to #1 because it hooked noticeably more and sooner than the Rhythm. So in this case, RG and cover stock were less suitable predictors than PerfectScale.

Arsenal #2
I predicted Dark Encounter, Lethal Revolver, Asylum, Melee Jab, Loaded Revolver. Why?

Cover Stocks: solid, solid, hybrid, pearl, pearl (5/5 stars, ideal)
RGs: 2.50, 2.574, 2.50, 2.5012, 2.558 (4/5, Le.R. has highest RG, but is #2 in progression)
Manufacturers: EBI, Brunswick, Storm, Brunswick, Brunswick (1/5 stars, should go Brunswick then EBI/Storm)
PerfectScale: 209.9, 209.5, 194.1, 196.8, 204.8 (3/5 stars, by PerfectScale...the Lo.R. and Asylum should switch spots)

And for this arsenal, I started also considering age (release date): 2012, 2011, 2014, 2014, 2011 (3/5 stars, balls from 2014 should perhaps be more in the front of the progression)

Results?
Le.Revolver, D. Encounter, Asylum, Melee Jab, Lo. Revolver

Why?
Mainly everything held true except that the Manufacturer difference between Columbia (EBI) and Brunswick made the solid Le.R. hook sooner despite the high RG. And for the Asylum and Melee Jab, the newer technology and cover stock trumped the expectation of the Brunswick balls hooking sooner and the perfectscale ratings.

So from these two samples, it's hard to draw a definite conclusion. But if I were forced to speculate;

My initial assumption that you should assemble the progression based on cover stocks and then RG...was not ideal because a PerfectScale rating in the 220s is significant and most likely is the result of 900Global's very strong S79 cover material on the Bullet Train. That material was enough to overcome the hybrid material and high RG.

In arsenal #2, the cover stock again trumped the slight RG and PerfectScale variations...but when comparing balls of the same cover stock (in this case both solids), the manufacturer came into play because Brunswick routinely hooks sooner than EBI.

So after looking at both scenarios/tests, the current "best strategy" for assembling an arsenal based on specs would be (in order of importance):
1) Arrange the balls by cover. Cover trumps most everything which makes sense because we know how important surface is.
2) skipped because the next 4 factors seem to be distant 3rds...
3) Scan potential arsenal for large PerfectScale variations. If the numbers are close 200-210, 180-199, 220-230...it's not a big deal. But if you have a ball in the 220-230 range...it's going to hook more regardless of the other factors...even cover...UNLESS we're talking solid vs. pearl...then it's a "?"
4) Manufacturers due to chemistry. Manufacturers all buy from their own suppliers of raw materials and resins. Radical hooks the most and most likely soonest (all things equal)...Storm/Rotogrip probably have the most backend, but tend to hook the latest. If all things are equal and the PerfectScale is aligned...Manufacturer is probably the next best to differentiate.
5) Age. The Melee Jab and Loaded Revolver are very similar in specs...but the Melee Jab has far more energy downlane. It doesn't necessarily hook "sooner"...but it hooks more and doesn't roll out as easy. Realize though...that's a 3-YEAR difference. The closer you get with release dates...the less likely this'll be a huge factor. Ball companies want to pretend that they are on the edge of scientific breakthroughs every time they release a new model...yet behind closed doors know that they are essentially just recombining covers and cores and making them different colors to make sure they have 2 big releases per year.
6) RG. I agree with Rob that RG is the engine in the ball...but thus far in my testing...it is cancelled out by all the other factors listed above. Still important. Still something you should be aware of when trying to develop a progression and/or arsenal...but not as much as the items listed above.

So does that mean Arsenal #3 will be solid, hybrid, pearl with RGs all over the place?

No. Of course not. Of matter of fact, as I've pondered Arsenal #3...I actually changed it up a little and currently plan to go:
pearl, hybrid, pearl/216, 226 (polished), 157.5/Rotogrip, 900Global, Track/2012, 2013, 2012/2.49, 2.55, 2.57

So, I'm actually trying to put together a better RG based arsenal...but either won't be able to because that middle ball is just too strong due to cover/PerfectScale OR I'll need to add some surface manipulation to get it to fit between those two balls. Originally, I was looking at two Ebonite balls instead of the 900Global...but then I'd have 3 balls at 2.49...two of them nearly identical except for PerfectScale...and I just didn't like the way that arsenal was shaping up so I made some changes.

Unfortunately, I have a lot of low RG pearls...and I'm not a fan of surface manipulation because it ends up being a regular expense to have to keep getting your ball surfaced/polished every other week.

So, Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: A LOT of factors, a LOT of moving parts, no conclusions as of yet, but the data (not just random observations of "people we saw") point to PerfectScale being potentially more accurate a predictor than Manufacturer, Age, and RG. Ironically, it's not "perfect"...but neither is any other method other than buy 3-5 of the same balls and having them all surfaced in a slightly different manner...thus almost guaranteeing you 3-5 different behaviors keeping all things equal. The question mark with that method is how long the ball retains that surface. I've heard as few as 2-3 games...and as many as 100 games. Most people would probably be more in line with Rob's estimate of around 35 games. With that estimate and an average resurfacing costing $20...that's almost $575/year. Do you want to have 3-5 balls and spend $575 on resurfacing? Or add 3 balls to your arsenal to give you different looks with their surface relatively kept constant? Individual choice I guess.

[vdubtx]

According to bowlingball.com's PerfecScale Rating system; which I've found to be true more often than not...

Rotogrip Haywire: 197
Mastermind Genius: 230

That's not "minor". Most high end ball are 200+ The Hyper Cell is 226.

I'm not saying the higher the number the better the ball...because if you have all 220-250 balls...you're gonna have some really bad 3rd games! But to compare a 197 to a 230...it may be a lot of things....but stronger ain't one of em. That's my opinion.

Perfect example of why the "Perfect Scale" is rubbish.

I have both the Hyper Cell and the Haywire. I can tell you without a doubt, the Haywire is stronger than the Hyper Cell.

https://media.giphy.com/media/5aLrlDiJPMPFS/giphy.gif

[NewToBowling]

My 900 Global Respect is 227 on perfect scale but never hooked or hit as hard as the Haywire. Same layout. I even had to sand and polish my Haywire because it read the lanes way too soon.

[bowl1820]

The basic problem with the PerfectScale is that, they use the manufactures hook ratings in the formula they use to calculate the number.

That wouldn't be problem if the companies used the same hook rating system, But they don't and that can affect the comparisons.

I wish I could find it again, back when I had first ran across the Perfect Scale. I found a page that told all the stuff they used to figured the number (except for the secret algorithm )


Given if you want to play with numbers, you can try MO's formula suggestion.

"Here's my best suggestion for using the undrilled ball #s to help anticipate ball reaction.

1) Take the min. RG # and add 70% of the total diff to it. That'll give you the approximate RG of the PAP for about 80% of the layouts. The RG of the PAP is the only RG that matters to the motion of the drilled ball.

2) Divide the intermediate diff. of the undrilled ball by the total diff. of the undrilled ball. That'll give you the diff. ratio. That tells you the potential of the ball to respond to friction. " (this mainly for Aysm.'s)

[Tony]

According to bowlingball.com's PerfecScale Rating system; which I've found to be true more often than not...

Rotogrip Haywire: 197
Mastermind Genius: 230

That's not "minor". Most high end ball are 200+ The Hyper Cell is 226.

I'm not saying the higher the number the better the ball...because if you have all 220-250 balls...you're gonna have some really bad 3rd games! But to compare a 197 to a 230...it may be a lot of things....but stronger ain't one of em. That's my opinion.

There are certainly some problems with the rating system, they have the Hy-road rated at 173 and the DV8 Outcast at 180 something, there is no comparison, the hy-road is much stronger
and that's just an example from balls I have been throwing. Of course the other thing to remember is many guys change the surface of the balls and the testing or guessing whatever they call it is with OOB finish (I assume). It's handy to have some relative scale to estimate differences between balls but it's not anywhere near perfect...

[Blacksox1]

Perfect example of why the "Perfect Scale" is rubbish.

I have both the Hyper Cell and the Haywire. I can tell you without a doubt, the Haywire is stronger than the Hyper Cell.

https://media.giphy.com/media/5aLrlDiJPMPFS/giphy.gif

Vdub what is the layout on your Haywire? I too have a hypercell with a strong layout, but is tame going down the lane.

[Aslan]

Perfect example of why the "Perfect Scale" is rubbish.

I have both the Hyper Cell and the Haywire. I can tell you without a doubt, the Haywire is stronger than the Hyper Cell.

I 'might' buy that the Hyper Cell is close to the Haywire...they share the same cover and most of ball reaction is the cover not the core. So I'll 'buy' that comparison. But a comparison of the Haywire and MM Genius still makes no sense and that was the original argument.

Someone might want to let Rotogrip know however that their HP3 line is now stronger than their HP4 line. HP = "Hook Potential". They also need to change their comparison widget because 2/3 of the line examples, the Hyper Cell is depicted as stronger (depending how you measure 'strength' in terms of hook).

Sometimes I feel like we get in circular arguments on this site. One minute someone is talking about the importance of specs and RGs and technology...then the next minute we declare all numbers "bad" and all that matters is that the blueberry puke colored ball is really popular and we saw a guy throw it and it really moved so lets change the spec sheets and ad slicks accordingly.

And where's Rotogrip on this? I realize they are probably all out at the WSOB...but if you're a Rotogrip staffer or rep...lets hear it!! Here's some free advertisement to come in and talk about why the HP3 Haywire has so much more hook than the Hyper Cell; their HP4 flagship ball. Maybe they changed technology and the Hyper Cell is just outdated? I dunno. But rather than guess...lets go RG!! OWN IT.

http://scnba.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/RotoGrip-Blk-logo-e1415938379803.jpg

[bowl1820]

I just looked up the Haywire and it seems to be a very good replacement for the Mastermind Genius.

Until ChuckR comes on and explains this statement he made, most of this discussion is pointless. You can't make a rebuttal until you know in what context he was making the statement.



As for which is stronger the "Mastermind Genius" or the "Haywire", That just depends on how you define "Strong" and whose comparisons your using.

Going by Bowling This Month's comparison,
http://www.bowlingthismonth.com/ball-comparison/brunswick-mastermind-genius-vs-roto-grip-haywire/

The Rotogrip "Haywire" has a higher hook rating (57) and a length of (10)
VS
The Brunswick "Mastermind Genius" which has a hook rating of only (54) and a length of (12)

Going just by that, The "Haywire" could be considered "stronger" because the higher hook rating, lower length and solid cover make it's better on longer and oilier conditions.


Now if we look at "backend" and "Torque"

The Brunswick "Mastermind Genius" has a Backend rating of (17.5) and Torque of (7.5)
VS
The Rotogrip "Haywire" which only has a Backend rating of (16), and Torque of (6)

Going just by that, The "Mastermind Genius" could be considered "stronger" because it has a stronger backend, Hybrid cover and is more flippy, So it's basically going to go long and snap hard, which is what a lot of bowlers equate as strength.

So is a ball "strong" because it goes long and snaps hard? or because it can bite through the oil and start turning earlier.

[Amyers]

Bowl is correct without more info we can't really know what chuck meant.

I do believe that bowl1820s numbers show the balls are mainly different do to surface and some polish on the haywire would make them even more similar. Which was my original argument.

Aslan two things as far as Arsenal construction goes your still missing the point. It's not that any one of those items you pointed out is ever going to be the best indicator of how to put an Arsenal together. It's that you have to consider them all. Also your Arsenal will never be always start with this ball first then move to ball number two when this happens. Learning to adjust and change balls is determined by experience and is an art not a science. Often times there are many correct answers and sometimes nothing works.

Your missing the point on surface too. No surface on a ball lasts forever. Every ball you own over a space of 10-30 games will migrate towards the surface of the lane around 4600 grit or so. So after 30 games you have an entire Arsenal of balls at 4600 grit or so. You have to maintain the surface on pearls or solids or anything else. Balls with lower grit surfaces will change faster but they are easier to update by hand than polished balls so it evens out

[Aslan]

Bowl1820 described the 'strength' thing very well. And I don't plan on a rebuttal from ChuckR...even though I'm sure and he and Rob have bickered to all hours of the night about this kinda stuff....neither have that "gene" that MikeW, Iceman, and I have where we love to debate.

And as I've said about surface, even though it's the most important, it's a variable that can only receive minor consideration when rating a ball's "strength" because it can be manipulated post-purchase. Think of it like this, you see a car commercial for the fastest car...lets say a Dodge Viper. Along comes Iceman and he says, "That's not the fastest car. It's nowhere near as fast as a Nascar stock car or a Formula 1 car." Would you agree? Of course it's not. So are the stock versions of the Nascar vehicles faster than a Viper? Nope.

And that's the point I was trying to make about surface. One of my teammates on Monday throws a sanded Ebonite Maxim (????). And she gets a little hook out of it. I throw a heavier version of that exact same ball (color and everything) as my spare ball....and even with far more rpms....it goes straight. Surface can make any ball into any ball. But whats the POINT of that? It costs extra money, it needs to be done at least every 2 months if not every month or every 2 weeks, and if you bowl on lanes that behave differently than you expect, and you don't see that in practice or the pro shop isn't open to put your ball on a spinner...you're stuck using a nice fancy ball with an incompatible surface...especially mid-game when it's illegal to change the surface.

So if someone tries to sell me on a Haywire, Outcry, Asylum, Sinister, Wrecker, etc... by essentially saying, "well, yeah, they are weaker than a Genius or Hyper Cell....but you can surface them to make them similar to those stronger balls" (whatever stronger definition you use)...then that's like telling a person to buy a Honda Civic because with $60,000 in aftermarket parts...you can make it similar in terms of speed and performance. Would a person buy a Viper and put a smaller engine in it so it'll perform more like a Civic? That's redunkulous and would result in a serious hit to a person's "man card".

I want to hear a nerdy, spec focused response from the minds at Rotogrip about this. And if they don't respond, then they miss the opportunity and I will continue to think their HP3 and HP2 lines are "garbagy". I'm open to change my mind....but they need to...???? You guessed it....OWN IT!

[Amyers]

Bowl1820 described the 'strength' thing very well. And I don't plan on a rebuttal from ChuckR...even though I'm sure and he and Rob have bickered to all hours of the night about this kinda stuff....neither have that "gene" that MikeW, Iceman, and I have where we love to debate.

And as I've said about surface, even though it's the most important, it's a variable that can only receive minor consideration when rating a ball's "strength" because it can be manipulated post-purchase. Think of it like this, you see a car commercial for the fastest car...lets say a Dodge Viper. Along comes Iceman and he says, "That's not the fastest car. It's nowhere near as fast as a Nascar stock car or a Formula 1 car." Would you agree? Of course it's not. So are the stock versions of the Nascar vehicles faster than a Viper? Nope.

And that's the point I was trying to make about surface. One of my teammates on Monday throws a sanded Ebonite Maxim (????). And she gets a little hook out of it. I throw a heavier version of that exact same ball (color and everything) as my spare ball....and even with far more rpms....it goes straight. Surface can make any ball into any ball. But whats the POINT of that? It costs extra money, it needs to be done at least every 2 months if not every month or every 2 weeks, and if you bowl on lanes that behave differently than you expect, and you don't see that in practice or the pro shop isn't open to put your ball on a spinner...you're stuck using a nice fancy ball with an incompatible surface...especially mid-game when it's illegal to change the surface.

So if someone tries to sell me on a Haywire, Outcry, Asylum, Sinister, Wrecker, etc... by essentially saying, "well, yeah, they are weaker than a Genius or Hyper Cell....but you can surface them to make them similar to those stronger balls" (whatever stronger definition you use)...then that's like telling a person to buy a Honda Civic because with $60,000 in aftermarket parts...you can make it similar in terms of speed and performance. Would a person buy a Viper and put a smaller engine in it so it'll perform more like a Civic? That's redunkulous and would result in a serious hit to a person's "man card".

I want to hear a nerdy, spec focused response from the minds at Rotogrip about this. And if they don't respond, then they miss the opportunity and I will continue to think their HP3 and HP2 lines are "garbagy". I'm open to change my mind....but they need to...???? You guessed it....OWN IT!

I'm just still not sure where you are going with this I'm guess you believe that the Mastermind line is Brunswick's top end ball but it's not. Originally the exile/intrigue were marketed as their top end balls with the mastermind line coming in as the step down unfortunately nobody really like the exile/intrigue so you can find them for $99 now. They have since replaced those with the Nirvana which seems to be better received. So if you want to look at it that way the entire mastermind line is HP3.

As far as changing the surface to make them closer I'm sure in 3-6 months there will be a ball with the same cover in a pearl so I guess you could wait unfortunately it's this mentality that causes the ball manufactures to produce every ball in a solid, pearl, and hybrid because the average bowler is too brain damaged to understand they could spend 200 bucks for a home spinner once or pay their pro shop $15-20 to do the same thing.

Their is no added cost to changing the surface of a bowling ball. The OOB surfaces on a bowling ball are not magic. They don't last any longer than the surface you get from your pro shop so your going to be spending that $20 bucks every 30 games whether it's to restore the OOB surface or the surface you choose. Otherwise you just have a ball that continues to perform at a lower level every time you bowl with it. It does happen slowly so you might not really notice it until it gets really bad but the loss of performance is real it's been tested out.

[vdubtx]

I want to hear a nerdy, spec focused response from the minds at Rotogrip about this. And if they don't respond, then they miss the opportunity and I will continue to think their HP3 and HP2 lines are "garbagy". I'm open to change my mind....but they need to...???? You guessed it....OWN IT!

You really need to stop placing so much emphasis on what a manufacturer says about their balls or nitpicking on the "numbers" of the ball. I don't care what "Line" the balls are in and placed by the manufacturer, I want to see it on the lane and do my own comparison before buying the ball myself. I won't buy a ball until I have seen it roll down a lane in league or a tournament that I am in so I can get my own visual to how it reacts to the lanes I am also bowling on.

With the Haywire, I had seen the ball at numerous leagues and even the US Open before deciding this was a ball for me. Not from information at the Roto-Grip website or from the "Perfect Score" rating that you seem to love.

I got caught last year with buying a ball for a specific lane condition and got bit as it didn't match the condition the manufacturer mentions it to be used for. Wasted $250 on it after initial purchase, plug and a re-drill and still not performing like they said it would. Do I wish I could get them to give me my money back, sure, but that is pointless and would never happen.

I really like the passion you have for this game, but you are trying to go about it in a "Textbook" way and it is just not that way on the lanes. You don't tell the lanes how to play, the lanes tell you how to play. I have seen some of your score posts and your ball progression, and I think you are putting too much emphasis on the specifics of the ball as told by the manufacturer or PerfectScore rating. You have to go out and do work on the lanes with it to see how it fits in your bag and adjust accordingly to what the lanes are telling you.

Don't get so caught up in the minutiae(I know, this is like talking to a brick wall). But, I am gonna say it anyway.

[Amyers]

I want to see it on the lane and do my own comparison before buying the ball myself. I won't buy a ball until I have seen it roll down a lane in league or a tournament that I am in so I can get my own visual to how it reacts to the lanes I am also bowling on.

With the Haywire, I had seen the ball at numerous leagues and even the US Open before deciding this was a ball for me. Not from information at the Roto-Grip website or from the "Perfect Score" rating that you seem to love.



Wow how many times have I told Aslan this!!! 1,2,3,4,5,6....................................... .................................................. ....................................

[Aslan]

http://www.okmoviequotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/9-03-Billy-Madison-quotes.gif

This thread makes me want to eat 2 bags of pop rocks and drink a 2 liter soda and have my head explode.

MUDPUPPY SUMMARY (because I don't propose reading ANY of the first 3 pages of this nerd debate...:
1) General love of Haywire.
2) A couple people agreed they like it.
3) A member made an erroneous statement regarding ball comparisons.
4) Aslan disagree.
5) A few members tried to debate the numbers on his behalf.
6) They could not win the "#s argument against Aslan's superior intellect".
7) They then criticized the numbers as being useless.
8) Aslan asked for a Rotocrip professional/representative to comment but like the original poster and the other notable members that are intentionally avoiding this debate (again fearing Aslan's verbose nature and superior intellect)...because they fear that right now, Aslan is taking the heat for "numbers" and if they enter the debate...they will have to defend "numbers" versus other noteable members that are currently making a case that it's just surface and feel and "The Gift", etc...

So, to end this conversation as painlessly as possible.
1) Some people really like the Haywire.
2) ChuckR was incorrect, the Haywire is not a good replacement for the Mastermind Genius.
3) There is no agreement between members that bowling ball specs have any importance at all and even less support for rating systems like PerfectScale.
4) Bowling ball manufacturers and the inventor's of PerfectScale and those who believe in modern bowling, spec focused arsenal assessments are silent and we can only assume in agreement.
5) Given that the numbers mean nothing, choose balls based on color, smell, name, manufacturer that matches your bag, or really any other system you come up with because at the end of the day either you got the Gift or you don't...and it really doesn't matter if it's a Track300A or a Radical Guru...because anyone with a garage, basement, rotational tool of some kind, and some type of abrasive material can turn a Radical Guru into a Track 300A and vice versa.

Discussion ended. Haywire wins. Buy it, OWN IT, and while you are buying it and owning it...if you really wanna expand that Rotogrip (please don't confuse Rotogrip with RG...one matters and the other is fictional) LOVE...Aslan has a rather interesting piece...believed by some to be the greatest ball ever made...and one of few balls responsible for a 900 perfect series. I must say that if someone were to offer me a decent amount of $$...it could certainly be YOURs this Christmas...because obviously the fact that it carries like a yorkie trying to knock down cement posts...is most likely due to Aslan being NON-Gifted...I'm sure it's an instant 900 for everyone else. And why wouldn't it be? I think it was in the HP3 line...Rotogrip's ELITE line.

OWN IT.

[NewToBowling]

Perfect Scale means nothing. The other numbers do matter

[Amyers]

A few things on this and I'm done unless we bring something new to light:

1. I think most of us agree the perfect scale is challenged at best worthless at worst.
2. The point I was trying to make wasn't that the numbers are meaningless just that you have to consider them all and no one number by itself can be used to base an arsenal on.
3. None of this is a popularity contest for the Haywire. I don't own one don't have any intention to buy one and have a mix of different brands in my household so I'm not a homer for Roto.
4. At it's OOB surface the Haywire is not a good replacement for the Mastermind Genius with a surface change they could fill a similar spot in your arsenal

Most of all I'm not sure how it's possible what you've taken from all of the posts here is that since their is no one number you can use to build an arsenal just pick you balls by color or smell. I think from what we have talked about here it's shown how important it is to take everything into account RG, Surface, Cover Stock, Desired Ball Motion, Differential, and Oil Handling Ability (probably leaving some stuff out). The importance of surface and maintaining that surface. Can you turn a Track 300a into a Guru? No but can I adjust that ball to act similarly to other balls with somewhat similar RG, Differential, and Cover Strength? Absolutely. In your numbers RG is .02 different, Diff. is .09 different, and Asymmetry is controlled by the drill. So if we believe the covers are close the biggest difference between the balls is surface.