Why does my much older ball hook more then newer more "aggressive" ball.

[blazerunner]

This is my first post here so excited to get some help from people instead of searching for you-tube videos that are not helping me under stand the differences in balls.

First off the two balls in question...

Newer ball is a Roto Grip Sinister
http://www.bowlingball.com/products/bowling-balls/roto-grip/11641/sinister.html

Older Ball is a Roto Grip RS-X
http://www.bowlingball.com/products/bowling-balls/roto-grip/2889/rs-x.html

Quick summary of what my question is I want to know why one ball hooks so much more then another?

Story behind my question:
Bought the newer ball a about year ago because I wanted a more aggressive hooking ball. Soon as I got it I never went back to the RS-X, almost even just threw it out. It seemed like it was hooking more at the time so never thought anything of it. Then in the last 3 weeks I have been struggling. I am hitting the pocket but leaving pins(usually 10 but just as often could have been solid 9 or 6 or something else).

So I say hey just for a bit lets throw that old ball. Well damn thing just takes off like a rocket compared to my Sinister. I had to move about 5 or more boards to the left and readjust my mark. Since going back to that other ball I am bowling well but I just don't get it. Also noticed the type of hook is different. Sinister is a much more curved hook while my RS-X looks like its not gonna move then at last quarter of the lane just halls butt to the pocket.

I am not bowling bad or anything. I am averaging 199 in one league and 204 in another which I am very happy with. I just want to understand why a much older medium ball is hooking more then an aggressive ball.

[JasonNJ]

The Sinister may need to be baked and resurfaced. For me usually about 90-100 games I start noticing the ball reactions on my ball starts to die and then I bake the oil out and resurface the ball. You can probably ask your pro shop to do it for you if you don't have a ball spinner and a ball oven.

[blazerunner]

The Sinister may need to be baked and resurfaced. For me usually about 90-100 games I start noticing the ball reactions on my ball starts to die and then I bake the oil out and resurface the ball. You can probably ask your pro shop to do it for you if you don't have a ball spinner and a ball oven.

Do you mind explaining what you mean? I am sorry I just dont understand and this is what I am trying to under stand I think.

[Amyers]

After a year it is quite likely that the Sinister needs a resurfacing. I haven't owned one but I have had some friends who did and all of them have complained about this ball "lane shining" pretty quickly so I'm surprised this hasn't been a problem before. Talk to your pro shop about it depending on the size they may also offer a ball oven than can extract the oil from the cover stock and help restore performance. Resurfacing a ball returns the surface of the ball back to the original factory surface (or any you may want) over time and games thrown the surface of your ball wears out and it needs to be reapplied. Depending on price for these services you may want to consider a new ball. I've seen oil extraction and resurfacing as cheap as $20 and as much as $70. At $20 it think it's a good deal as long as you like the ball and at $70 unless I love the ball I'm not going to invest that into one that's a year or more old. It's just something to think about.

[scottymoney]

Most all Storm/Roto balls are sponges. My brother has the Wrecker and to keep it at a surface form him, he hits it with a 100- grit pad every 6 games. This takes that shine off. Even with doing this I have baked and resurfaced it every 40-60 games. It usually takes 2 hours or so to get the ball to sweat out all the oil I can get out of it.

We recently got him a Motiv Revolt and he loves the reaction and the fact he doesn't have to play with abralon pads every 2 weeks. Still uses the Wrecker when the lanes break down a bit but he complains it is very over/under (which I hear a lot about the wrecker)

[JasonNJ]

Do you mind explaining what you mean? I am sorry I just dont understand and this is what I am trying to under stand I think.

Sure, the reactive bowling balls are porous and if you looked at the surface of the ball under a microscope you'll see the surface will have all these peaks and valleys. Because of the peaks and valleys, that gives your ball the friction it needs to hook. After a while, these peaks and valleys wear down from normal use and get clogged with oil making the ball has less friction. So baking the ball will heat up the oil and unclogged the pores of the ball. And resurfacing it is basically sanding your ball with different grit sandpaper to create more peaks and valleys.

I would be careful in baking the ball in your oven, the balls can easily crack. Your pro shop can probably both bake and resurface the ball for you. Or you can buy a ball spinner and oven which bowlingball.com sells both.

Here is a link to Storm's resurfacing guide.

http://www.stormbowling.com/docs/Resurfacing_Guide_2012.pdf

[Ptnomore]

Blazerunner, AS you use your ball, it soaks up lane conditioner (oil). It's not necessarily what the ball was designed to do, but a function of the materials used to make modern bowling balls. And every so often, you have to get that oil out as the ball gets saturated. Losing movement (hook) on the back end is one indication of that saturation. But a periodic "bake" is more helpful instead of waiting for the ball to stop working. Because at that point, you really don't know if it's the lanes (oil volume, pattern, etc), your release, the ball surface, etc. Periodic baking takes at least that part out of the equation.

Your proshop should be able to do that for you. Most places I know charge $30.

You can also build your own for little more about $60, using a Plastic storage bin, a 5 gallon bucket, and a food dehydrator. I did it, took a couple of hours, and it works awesome. Search youtube for it, you'll find it.

[RobLV1]

Since most everyone is focusing on the new ball, let me talk about the old ball for a second. The RSX was released years ago, and since that time there have been many technological advances in cover materials. Since you are asking for explanations about baking and resurfacing your new ball, I assume you have not done any resurfacing of your old ball. If that's the case, then what you are seeing in your old ball is enough loss of friction that the ball is skidding further, thereby retaining more energy for the back end when it finally faces up. If you like that reaction, try taking your new ball and putting some surface on it and apply polish over the surface. I think it might give you the reaction that seem to be looking for.

[Ptnomore]

But to answer your original question as to why your old ball hooks more than the new one, more than likely, the lanes are better matched up to the existing surface on the old ball. The old ball, if it was originally a matte finish, will have become "polished" over time with use, at least in the track area of the ball. The new ball probably has a finish on it that it much too aggressive for the amount of conditioner on the lane where you bowl. Try adding a touch of polish to the balls surface and see what that does.

If there isn't enough oil (volume) on the lane for your new aggressive ball, it'll lose a lot of it's energy as it goes down the lane, and won't have enough left over to turn the corner when it gets to that point.

[fordman1]

I have found that the number rating for most balls is wrong. My new vrs. LT48 is one of the strongest balls I have. Yet it is a 165. It hooks more than the 225-230 balls. Wouldn't hurt to look at the way the balls are drilled also.

[Jessiewoodard57]

I tried an experiment suggested to me by a friend he suggested soaking the ball in 5 gallon bucket with warm water and dawn dish soap. I had a Hammer first blood that started not hooking for me I tried the bucket for a few hours and was surprised by all the oil film on the top of the water. I wiped the ball of and allowed it to dry a few days and wow what a difference that made.

[blazerunner]

Sorry for getting back so late to this post. Thanks so much for the info. I did go in to practice today at lunch and talked to my pro shop guy there about backing the ball but found out no proshop in my area has one but the one on our air force base, which I don't have access to. He recommended soaking my ball in hot water with some dawn soap for about 5 mins or so. Rinse and clean it and do it again in till I fill its done sweating. He also warned about doing it for to long as water would soak into the ball and could take some time if to much water soaks in.

After seeing Jessiewoodard57 post saying basically same thing I will try this but is there anything else I should know?

[Amyers]

I do suggest having the ball resurfaced after soaking

[Jessiewoodard57]

Amyers is right after allowing the ball to dry for a few days I did at least polish the ball with Reacta Shine

[blazerunner]

I will soak it this weekend then but quick question about resurfacing the ball. There is a ball spinner on my bowling alley and it has several options and I don't know which one to pick.

The options are

Sand 500
Sand 1000
Sand 2000
Polish
Clean
resurface 1000- finish
resurface 2000- finish
resurface polish-finish

What do the options mean exactly and what one do I pick. If I understand some previous post I shouldn't sand the ball down because of the house shot being to mild for an aggressive ball and the ball will lose energy going down the lane. So do I polish it?

I just don't really understand what polishing does. I think I understanding sanding it with 500 grit will cause more ridges on the ball so grabs the lane more, and in house shot that's not super oily will cause it to grab more but loose energy down the lane which i'm guessing causes it to come to flat when it hits the pocket. So what does polishing do and what option is best for me to pick to get my ball to hook more on a house shot.

Ultimately Would love to move about 5 boards to the left where I am now. I line most left edge on my left foot on the center dot roughly and my perfect spot is like 5 boards to the left of that center dot on the approach. I just feel more comfortable there and more accurate with my spares.



***EDIT***

I did recently use that same machine to put it down to 500 grit because another bowler (not my pro shop guy) told me to get my ball to hook more put it at 500 grit and that will help but it didn't seem to help. One reason I turned to this site so I can talk to people i feel know what they are talking about.

[Amyers]

500 Grit is probably way to much surface. I'm not experienced with resurfacing machines around here the proshop does it on a ball spinner. The factory surface for the Sinister is 4000 grit which doesn't seem to be an option there. If you currently have 500 grit on the ball and want more backend movement from it I would be tempted to just polish it and see how it does. Generally as you have higher surface grits on the ball they will go farther down the lane before starting to hook and move on the backend more. Lower grits cause the ball to start earlier and hook more total boards but less on the backend. Polish has the same effect of causing the ball to go longer and the underlying grit under the surface will cause the ball to grab the lane more or less also.

You also have to keep in mind to have the proper amount of surface for the amount of oil on the lane where you throw the ball. If you like to play outside the 2nd arrow you will generally need less surface than if you play farther in. Be careful of extremes you may get the opposite of what your looking for. A ball surfaced at 500 grit thrown down the 5 board may very well burn up and not move much at all or a ball with a 4000 grit surface that has polish applied over it thrown down 15 may never move at all because there wasn't enough surface to get the ball started almost like plastic. Don't be afraid to experiment and find what works for you there are no rules.

[Jessiewoodard57]

I don't trust those automatic machines. Who knows how worn the sanding pads really are inside it.

[NewToBowling]

I don't trust those automatic machines. Who knows how worn the sanding pads really are inside it.

From what I have read those are dinosaurs from the bowling stone age. Only to be used on plastic balls as the compound/polish they use will clog up newer reactive covers. If you need to polish use the pro shop.

[blazerunner]

How hard and how much does it cost to get a machine that will do it at home? Or is this not really available for home use?

[vdubtx]

How hard and how much does it cost to get a machine that will do it at home? Or is this not really available for home use?

Several brands available form home use, here is one:

http://www.shop.innovativeballspinner.com/Personal-Ball-Spinner-1-2-HP-55-102-PS12.htm

[vdubtx]

From what I have read those are dinosaurs from the bowling stone age. Only to be used on plastic balls as the compound/polish they use will clog up newer reactive covers. If you need to polish use the pro shop.

There are some machines that work pretty well, Strom Surface factory Pro machine was used pretty heavily while I was at Nationals this year. One of my team mates used it on one ball and seemed to work pretty well.

[NewToBowling]

I'm thinking of these:

http://www.mcbowling.com/images/zot/GlossBoss2.png

[vdubtx]

I'm thinking of these:

http://www.mcbowling.com/images/zot/GlossBoss2.png

I knew which one you meant. Grew up using those. :cool:

One thing for oil extraction that I have done on mine and works REALLY well is the Jayhawk Detox machine. That thing pulls out so much oil from a soaked ball. I had several of my balls done prior to going to Nationals in May and it really helped bring some life back to them. I suggest seeing if your shop has this, or if one near you does. It's worth it.

[NewToBowling]

The shop that was offering free drilling on Black Friday had a $$20 Detox special. Didn't take them up on their offer but may be should have. Regularly it is $40. The good thing about the machine is it doesn't submerge the thumb hole so ideally you should be able to take it back out on the lanes immediately.

[AlexNC]

A few of the proshops in my area offer a discounted package a few times a year that includes oil extraction, resurface, and new inserts for around $50. Usually see the offer a few weeks before a season begins.

I have had luck using dawn and warm water as well, but I don't bother submerging all the way covering the holes, instead I leave that area above the water line since the ball doesn't track over it anyways.

[RobLV1]

Put duck tape over the thumb hole. It's waterproof!

[larry mc]

from what im reading , it sounds 2 me that the house u r bowling in may be setting out a lighter pattern and your new ball is burning out in the heads . same for the guy who thinks his lt 48 is stronger then a 220 rated ball

[RobLV1]

from what im reading , it sounds 2 me that the house u r bowling in may be setting out a lighter pattern and your new ball is burning out in the heads . same for the guy who thinks his lt 48 is stronger then a 220 rated ball

What a perfect example of two things: 1) The "perfect scale" is a joke and should be regarded as such by anyone with even a basic understanding of modern bowling balls, and 2) the folly of referring to bowling balls as being strong or weak. If the LT 48 gets through the burn and stores energy to demolish the pins, then it is "Stronger" in that particular situation, even though it's characteristics say that it is less aggressive.

[larry mc]

brunswick itself rates the lt 48 as a weaker ball and strength refers to how much oil it can handle

[RobLV1]

brunswick itself rates the lt 48 as a weaker ball and strength refers to how much oil it can handle

You're missing the point. The difference between calling a ball "weak" or "strong," and less aggressive and more aggressive is the difference between calling a cup of coffee weak or strong, or calling it mild or robust. "Weak" or "Strong" is a value judgement, while "mild" or "robust" is a description. When we refer to a bowling ball as being "strong," it's a good thing, because our society values strength as a virtue and weakness as a flaw. When we refer to it as being more aggressive or less aggressive, it is purely a description of it's attributes which may or may not work in a given situation.

[larry mc]

i get what ur saying ,, word choice , but u get what i mean . sometimes my " weakest " ball is my best friend

[blazerunner]

Forgot to let everyone know how it went over the weekend but it went GREAT!

So I cleaned my ball then took to a place to be polished. It was Hooking nice for me. Everyone around me was complaining that the lanes were to oily that night but my ball was coming in harder then it has in a while. Bowled my second best series of the year (682).

So how should I clean my ball and can it be cleaned to much?

[Amyers]

Forgot to let everyone know how it went over the weekend but it went GREAT!

So I cleaned my ball then took to a place to be polished. It was Hooking nice for me. Everyone around me was complaining that the lanes were to oily that night but my ball was coming in harder then it has in a while. Bowled my second best series of the year (682).

So how should I clean my ball and can it be cleaned to much?

Wipe your ball after every shot. Clean your ball with a good quality cleaner (Storm Reacta Foam, Powerhouse, and Valentinos Remedy RX are my favorites) after each use.

[TVan]

Does the reacta foam work on any ball finish? Pearl or solid?

[Amyers]

Reacta Foam does not alter surface so yes it will work on anything. Reacta shine is only for polished surfaces and reacta scuff for duller surfaces.

[vdubtx]

Although not approved yet, That Purple Stuff supposedly makes you shoot 300's every game. :p

[bowl1820]

Although not approved yet, That Purple Stuff supposedly makes you shoot 300's every game. :p

"That Purple Stuff" IS approved for anytime use.

Approved Cleaners list:
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/Approved_cleaner_polish.pdf

[RobLV1]

From actual league experience, I can tell you that the Purple Stuff facilitates the oil breaking down even faster! There are a whole lot of inward groans when we get to a pair where someone is using it.

[Jessiewoodard57]

From actual league experience, I can tell you that the Purple Stuff facilitates the oil breaking down even faster! There are a whole lot of inward groans when we get to a pair where someone is using it.

That's good to know Thank you changed my mind

[scottymoney]

From actual league experience, I can tell you that the Purple Stuff facilitates the oil breaking down even faster! There are a whole lot of inward groans when we get to a pair where someone is using it.

so what you are saying is the "flat 10" you are supposed to fix with using the purple stuff is just breaking the lane down and creating an adjustment for you?

[bowl1820]

From actual league experience, I can tell you that the Purple Stuff facilitates the oil breaking down even faster! There are a whole lot of inward groans when we get to a pair where someone is using it.


Just how is the Purple Stuff facilitating the oil breaking down even faster? Are you claiming it's getting on the lane?

Or is it just the fact they are rolling a clean ball down the lane each time they use it? That would be true with any cleaner if they cleaned their ball after every shot.

[vdubtx]

"That Purple Stuff" IS approved for anytime use.

Approved Cleaners list:
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/Approved_cleaner_polish.pdf

Ah ok, last I read it hadn't been approved yet. Looks like it was updated on 12/01/15.

[RobLV1]

Just how is the Purple Stuff facilitating the oil breaking down even faster? Are you claiming it's getting on the lane?

Or is it just the fact they are rolling a clean ball down the lane each time they use it? That would be true with any cleaner if they cleaned their ball after every shot.

No, it's not getting on the lane, it just gets the surface so clean that it's like a fresh surface. That much fresh surface eats up the oil that much faster.

[bowl1820]

No, it's not getting on the lane, it just gets the surface so clean that it's like a fresh surface. That much fresh surface eats up the oil that much faster.

"it just gets the surface so clean that it's like a fresh surface." Okay, that's what I want in cleaner! SOLD!

[NewToBowling]

"it just gets the surface so clean that it's like a fresh surface." Okay, that's what I want in cleaner! SOLD!

Yeah seems like its working then

[RobLV1]

Yeah seems like its working then

Better be ready to adjust after every shot!

[vdubtx]

Better be ready to adjust after every shot!

Think that's being a little dramatic Rob.

[RobLV1]

Think that's being a little dramatic Rob.

Actually, it's not. I've seen it used in a scratch league, and I'm being totally serious. I've also seen it used to intentionally mess up someone else's shot.

[Tony]

Actually, it's not. I've seen it used in a scratch league, and I'm being totally serious. I've also seen it used to intentionally mess up someone else's shot.

Seems like approving it for use, and use during play was not a wise decision, given those results.

[bowl1820]

Actually, it's not. I've seen it used in a scratch league, and I'm being totally serious. I've also seen it used to intentionally mess up someone else's shot.

League night bowling
"Hey look! that guy is cleaning his ball, he's trying dry out my line to mess up my shot "

Next week,
"Hey look! that guy is "not" cleaning his ball, he's trying move oil into my line to mess my shot up"

Next week,
"Hey look! that guy is .........."


http://s5.postimg.org/sqn064scn/should_bowl_better.jpg

[RobLV1]

Seems like approving it for use, and use during play was not a wise decision, given those results.

What, the USBC not making a wise decision?!? Heavens, can it be? Mock it all you like. Ask Glenn Allison about USBC's wise decisions.

[Tony]

What, the USBC not making a wise decision?!? Heavens, can it be? Mock it all you like. Ask Glenn Allison about USBC's wise decisions.

I'm sure he would have some insight.....

[vdubtx]

Actually, it's not. I've seen it used in a scratch league, and I'm being totally serious. I've also seen it used to intentionally mess up someone else's shot.

You know as well as I do that scratch bowlers will find any kind of excuse for a bad set. ESPECIALLY a senior scratch bowler. Instead of taking it on themselves they will deflect bad performance on the lanes, the ball, the other guy cleaning or wiping his ball after every shot............

Sorry, just not buying that the "miracle" cleaner is going to take that much more oil off the lanes than is already taken off with a ball that is either wiped or cleaned with a different cleaner.

[Tony]

League night bowling
"Hey look! that guy is cleaning his ball, he's trying dry out my line to mess up my shot "

Next week,
"Hey look! that guy is "not" cleaning his ball, he's trying move oil into my line to mess my shot up"

Next week,
"Hey look! that guy is .........."




I'm pretty sure I've bowled against those guys !

I myself always claim it's the ball or the lanes, if I bowled well, and it's all me, if I bowled poorly.

[bowl1820]

You know as well as I do that scratch bowlers will find any kind of excuse for a bad set. ESPECIALLY a senior scratch bowler. Instead of taking it on themselves they will deflect bad performance on the lanes, the ball, the other guy cleaning or wiping his ball after every shot............

Sorry, just not buying that the "miracle" cleaner is going to take that much more oil off the lanes than is already taken off with a ball that is either wiped or cleaned with a different cleaner.

+1

I have to agree with you here.

[Tony]

You know as well as I do that scratch bowlers will find any kind of excuse for a bad set. ESPECIALLY a senior scratch bowler. Instead of taking it on themselves they will deflect bad performance on the lanes, the ball, the other guy cleaning or wiping his ball after every shot............

Sorry, just not buying that the "miracle" cleaner is going to take that much more oil off the lanes than is already taken off with a ball that is either wiped or cleaned with a different cleaner.

I can certainly hear some guys in the morning league with many old timers making these sort of complaints...a good 50% of the guys will wipe the ball off before every throw.
I have no idea if anyone in my leagues is using this cleaner, the latest one I heard discussed was the Storm foam.
I don't notice very many guys spraying anything on the ball between shots but do see someone now and then take the ball back off the lane and cleaning the belt marks off, have not seen anyone confronted and asked what they are using to clean ball.
I'm sure that someone could spray their towel and then bring it down and wipe off the ball and most people wouldn't notice....

[RobLV1]

You know as well as I do that scratch bowlers will find any kind of excuse for a bad set. ESPECIALLY a senior scratch bowler. Instead of taking it on themselves they will deflect bad performance on the lanes, the ball, the other guy cleaning or wiping his ball after every shot............

Sorry, just not buying that the "miracle" cleaner is going to take that much more oil off the lanes than is already taken off with a ball that is either wiped or cleaned with a different cleaner.

Sorry, but the league to which I'm referring is NOT a senior league, in fact there are several PBA National and Regional Titelists in the league. Comments that have been made about the Purple Stuff have been made before league starts, not as a result of anyone bowling badly. Keep in mind that many of these guys are extremely high rev players where fresh surface, shot after shot, will make a difference.

[bowl1820]

Sorry, but the league to which I'm referring is NOT a senior league, in fact there are several PBA National and Regional Titelists in the league. Comments that have been made about the Purple Stuff have been made before league starts, not as a result of anyone bowling badly. Keep in mind that many of these guys are extremely high rev players where fresh surface, shot after shot, will make a difference.

Comments before league even starts?

In a way that's even worse, it's like someone saying "IF! I bowl bad after we start, it's not because of something I did or didn't do , it's that guys fault. I didn't have perfect conditions"

Since the PBA National and Regional Titlists know about this before hand and being pros, do they prepare for it? or do they just gripe about how the conditions are not going to be perfect for their high rev style?;)

[vdubtx]

Sorry, but the league to which I'm referring is NOT a senior league, in fact there are several PBA National and Regional Titelists in the league. Comments that have been made about the Purple Stuff have been made before league starts, not as a result of anyone bowling badly. Keep in mind that many of these guys are extremely high rev players where fresh surface, shot after shot, will make a difference.
Had a good laugh at this. Comments at the lanes before they even start huh? Sure seems like making excuses and assumptions. You know what they say when you assume right? :p

High rev players make a difference on the lanes anyway. Heck, even low rev players make a difference. Regardless if someone is using the "miracle" stuff or not.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Didn't the USBC rule used to be you can't alter the ball in any way other than wiping it with a towel and no cleaner or scuff pads after competition starts? Personally i think that should be the rule. I think i will try some of that purple stuff though to clean before bowling.

[RobLV1]

It seems like I really hit a nerve here, and I really don't understand why. It's not a matter of excuses in case they bowl bad, nor is it that they are griping. It is nothing more than a topic of conversation; something like, "Hey, two of their guys are using the Purple stuff, be prepared to move fast and often." I'm simply trying to share something that I learned by being one of the lowest average bowlers amongst many elite players. If it doesn't apply to you, then ignore it, but keep in mind that someday it may apply to you, and it may apply to other posters now.

[bowl1820]

Didn't the USBC rule used to be you can't alter the ball in any way other than wiping it with a towel and no cleaner or scuff pads after competition starts? Personally i think that should be the rule. I think i will try some of that purple stuff though to clean before bowling.

You could use cleaners during competition if they are approved for anytime use, been that way for years.

The FAQ for Rule 18 – Bowling Ball – Altering Surface
When may I alter the surface of my bowling ball?

a. Cleaning – Cleaners approved for use any time may be utilized before, during or after
certified competition; cleaners approved for only before and after competition may only
be used during these times. The use of a ball spinner is prohibited during competition.

b. Sanding – You are permitted to sand the surface of your bowling balls prior to certified
competition; however, the use of abrasives is strictly prohibited once the first ball is thrown
in the competition.

c. Polishing – You are permitted to polish the surface of your bowling ball prior to certified
competition. However, once tournament or league play begins, the use of a ball spinner is
strictly prohibited.

[fortheloveofbowling]

It seems like I really hit a nerve here, and I really don't understand why. It's not a matter of excuses in case they bowl bad, nor is it that they are griping. It is nothing more than a topic of conversation; something like, "Hey, two of their guys are using the Purple stuff, be prepared to move fast and often." I'm simply trying to share something that I learned by being one of the lowest average bowlers amongst many elite players. If it doesn't apply to you, then ignore it, but keep in mind that someday it may apply to you, and it may apply to other posters now.

I just stated my opinion on the rule should be no cleaners during competition. If the rule is you can use them then fine, i don't care. I would never complain about anything done within the rules of the game on the lanes. If the guy is burning up a line or spot just move inside of him take away his hold and use what he is building to the right.

[bowl1820]

It seems like I really hit a nerve here, and I really don't understand why. It's not a matter of excuses in case they bowl bad, nor is it that they are griping. It is nothing more than a topic of conversation; something like, "Hey, two of their guys are using the Purple stuff, be prepared to move fast and often." I'm simply trying to share something that I learned by being one of the lowest average bowlers amongst many elite players. If it doesn't apply to you, then ignore it, but keep in mind that someday it may apply to you, and it may apply to other posters now.

Maybe it was the choice of phrasing:


"I've also seen it used to intentionally mess up someone else's shot."
Which is a far cry from ""Hey, two of their guys are using the Purple stuff, be prepared to move fast and often."

"intentionally mess up someone else's shot" sounds like their saying he's using unfair tactics by cleaning his ball to good to often.

[NewToBowling]

Whiners are as bad as baggers

[J Anderson]

Whiners are as bad as baggers

Not in my book. Baggers are cheating and if it's a money league or they're bowling in handicapped tournaments they are stealing from the rest of us who abide by the rules.

Whiners are merely annoying.

[Tony]

Not in my book. Baggers are cheating and if it's a money league or they're bowling in handicapped tournaments they are stealing from the rest of us who abide by the rules.

Whiners are merely annoying.

I would tend to agree, I'm not a fan of the bagging and don't really see that using that as a strategy to win very appealing.
Just last week in a league that does head to head points I was bowling against the top average bowler in the league who has 0 handicap, I on the other hand had 39 pins. One of the other players strolled by as we were in the 10th frame and commented "you got him by 100 pins , you can probably let up now" to me, I went up and threw 2 strikes and a 9 count to end the game.
Yes I could have thrown an 9 - and still beat him but I'd rather get a 240 game and feel good that I beat him scratch because I was bowling really good that day.
In the end I had a 854 / 1110 handicap and he had a 907

[RobLV1]

Maybe it was the choice of phrasing:


Which is a far cry from ""Hey, two of their guys are using the Purple stuff, be prepared to move fast and often."

"intentionally mess up someone else's shot" sounds like their saying he's using unfair tactics by cleaning his ball to good to often.

Unfair is a matter of opinion. Unfortunately, destroying someone else's shot is a common tactic used by the pros in modern bowling. Remember Brian Valenta using a heavily sanded ball a couple of years ago to burn up everything except lofting the left guttercap? Four or five years ago when the World Championship consisted of a series of stepladder events for the top twelve or fifteen, I remember watching Chris Barnes and Mika practice on Michael Haugen's line for no other reason than to ensure that Haugen would not advance. It worked.

[bowl1820]

Unfair is a matter of opinion. Unfortunately, destroying someone else's shot is a common tactic used by the pros in modern bowling........

It's not a matter of what's fair or unfair.

But of who said what.

You said that this is a topic of conversation before league starts.

"Hey, two of their guys are using the Purple stuff, be prepared to move fast and often."

Okay, this is some bowlers saying those guys balls are maybe going to be removing more oil than normal (Do to them being clean) and they have to be prepared to adjust.

That's a reasonable conversation, they could of have said the same thing if they saw the two guys were using sanded balls or particle balls or balls known for soaking up lots of oil etc.

Now you also said "I've also seen it used to intentionally mess up someone else's shot."

Okay here you said "you" seen someone using the Purple stuff to destroying someone else's shot. That is a very different view than the other conversation.

How did you determine that was their intent by using it?

Did they just clean their ball and play the same line as you or someone else?
That in of itself doesn't mean someone is using unfair tactics.

Did you over hear them saying "I'm going to mess with that guys shot?
etc.

In any case it's not the cleaners fault, it's not the USBC fault because they approved it and just because some is using it doesn't mean they are using unfair tactics just by using it.

Now if you want to say the USBC should not allow cleaning of a ball during league, hey that's okay. If ball cleaning is a problem somehow on a league, just pass a league rule saying you can't clean it during league problem solved.

[fortheloveofbowling]

I know i would rather have these problems than some guy spraying urethane all over the lot.

[vdubtx]

It seems like I really hit a nerve here, and I really don't understand why.
No nerves hit at all, just stating opinion that differs from yours. :cool:

That's what forums are for, to have conversations. Not all will lead on one direction or have same opinions on topics as you well know.

[RobLV1]

It's not a matter of what's fair or unfair.

But of who said what.

You said that this is a topic of conversation before league starts.

It often is a topic of conversation before league starts.

"Hey, two of their guys are using the Purple stuff, be prepared to move fast and often."

Okay, this is some bowlers saying those guys balls are maybe going to be removing more oil than normal (Do to them being clean) and they have to be prepared to adjust.

That's a reasonable conversation, they could of have said the same thing if they saw the two guys were using sanded balls or particle balls or balls known for soaking up lots of oil etc.

Now you also said "I've also seen it used to intentionally mess up someone else's shot."

I have also heard this during bowling when someone on an opposing team seemingly cannot miss, a player chooses to use the Purple Stuff and throw a few shots on the keyed in players line.

Okay here you said "you" seen someone using the Purple stuff to destroying someone else's shot. That is a very different view than the other conversation.

Yes it is. I was simply relaying two different conversations that I heard on two different occasions. Sorry I wasn't clear about that.

How did you determine that was their intent by using it?

They said so.

Did they just clean their ball and play the same line as you or someone else?
That in of itself doesn't mean someone is using unfair tactics.

Did you over hear them saying "I'm going to mess with that guys shot?
etc.

Yes.

In any case it's not the cleaners fault, it's not the USBC fault because they approved it and just because some is using it doesn't mean they are using unfair tactics just by using it.

I never said that I thought it was fair, or unfair for that matter. I was just stating what I've heard among elite bowlers. There are valid arguments to be made for either side in terms of manipulating lane conditions. I don't believe that I've stated my opinion on the matter one way or the other.

Now if you want to say the USBC should not allow cleaning of a ball during league, hey that's okay. If ball cleaning is a problem somehow on a league, just pass a league rule saying you can't clean it during league problem solved.

Please see my comments above.

[NewToBowling]

How convenient that you implicitly say they were using it to ruin other peoples shot

[RobLV1]

How convenient that you implicitly say they were using it to ruin other peoples shot

Not convenient at all. I said it because I heard it. I have not given any opinion on the practice of ruining other people's lines, or on whether or not the Purple Stuff should be legal or not. I'm telling you what I've heard, and what I've seen. Kinda makes me wish I had never joined in on the conversation at all.

[Tony]

Although I'm not part of the debate / conversation I have to say I'm glad I play at a recreational level and do not bowl with many players that endeavor to win by ruining another guys shot. There is one team of arrogant young kids that are hotshot bowlers and have been suspected of sandbagging, trying to ruin a guys line, and who knows what other things that I would consider poor sportsmanship.

[NewToBowling]

Not convenient at all. I said it because I heard it. I have not given any opinion on the practice of ruining other people's lines, or on whether or not the Purple Stuff should be legal or not. I'm telling you what I've heard, and what I've seen. Kinda makes me wish I had never joined in on the conversation at all.

Sure. Sounds reasonable :)

[NewToBowling]

Although I'm not part of the debate / conversation I have to say I'm glad I play at a recreational level and do not bowl with many players that endeavor to win by ruining another guys shot. There is one team of arrogant young kids that are hotshot bowlers and have been suspected of sandbagging, trying to ruin a guys line, and who knows what other things that I would consider poor sportsmanship.

Question isn't that there aren't unscrupulous bowlers out there but that they just blurt out their intentions for everyone to hear.

[RobLV1]

Question isn't that there aren't unscrupulous bowlers out there but that they just blurt out their intentions for everyone to hear.

I really think that the basic question here is whether the idea of manipulating a shot is unscrupulous or not. I've had a long discussion with Tom Clark who basically says that it is what it is. And, to a degree, he's right. The fact that the USBC has been totally remiss in controlling what's legal in terms of bowling balls as well as monitoring oil conditions, so the result is that modern bowling is kinda like the wild, wild west in terms of what is legal and what's not. If it's legal, and accepted by the powers that be, then why not just blurt it out?

[fortheloveofbowling]

Gamesmanship has long been a part of our sport to aid to a bowlers chances and trying to minimize the opponents chances. I have heard from old timers before the tv lights came on Earl Anthony would often throw a super sanded ball to burn up a line and play off of it. Just watch the way Norm Duke handles his self in match play sometime. He is meticulous with the feel of his ball but many think he gets even slower with adjustments when he feels he can take an opponent out of his rhythm. I watched a multi pba regional winner one night in league throw plastic ball up a super dry line just to create hold. Was that wrong also for lane manipulation? Many times gamesmanship is going on and we can not even tell. Now which things are acceptable? Is it ok to create your own advantage and not expect some else to try to do the same? As i said before, i really think altering the surface of your ball other than just wiping with a clean towel after competition begins should not be allowed but it is so.......

[RobLV1]

How true! I can't tell you how many times I have approached my opponent who has beat me the first two games of a match play league and offered to bet on the last game. Many times he folds like a lawn chair just because there's a dollar or five on the line.

[Amyers]

Every ball thrown manipulates the lanes in some way. Truth is most of us are playing a similar break point during every game and it becomes more so on sport shots. Most of us just don't bowl on a high enough level to know it.

I really don't believe that a ball cleaned with the purple stuff removes a noticable amount more oil from a lane than a wiped ball. Maybe the real question here is did they talk about this strategy where the person who's line they were supposedly messing with could hear? Sounds like an interesting mind game more than anything to me.

If this actually made a difference the commercial of using it to help you carry ten pins (I don't believe it) would be for only one shot on your line. People have played mental games for as long as the game has been around. I don't have to mess your line up but if I can make you wonder if I did advantage me.

[RobLV1]

The person could not hear it, and it DOES result in the need to move faster and further than you would without it. Believe it or not, it's up to you!

[mc_runner]

Every ball thrown manipulates the lanes in some way. Truth is most of us are playing a similar break point during every game and it becomes more so on sport shots. Most of us just don't bowl on a high enough level to know it.

I really don't believe that a ball cleaned with the purple stuff removes a noticable amount more oil from a lane than a wiped ball. Maybe the real question here is did they talk about this strategy where the person who's line they were supposedly messing with could hear? Sounds like an interesting mind game more than anything to me.

If this actually made a difference the commercial of using it to help you carry ten pins (I don't believe it) would be for only one shot on your line. People have played mental games for as long as the game has been around. I don't have to mess your line up but if I can make you wonder if I did advantage me.

Ha, I didn't believe they would actually claim you'd stop leaving corners. But yep, right on the site it claims you won't leave any more flat 10s if you use it. LOL... isn't confirmation bias great??

[Doghouse Reilly]

A couplee of questions

Has you RobLV1 or anyone else on here personally tried that purple stuff to see if it really is this miracle ball cleaner?

Does rolling a ball across or on someone elses line automatically mean your doing something unfair?

Are there no times that's okay?

I've seen advice given here and there about just playing inside of someone elses line to find oil or whatever.

Can the other person then claim that's a unfair tactic on your part, because your drying up the area they were going to move to later on as they wore out their current line?

I doubt any ball cleaner is turning balls into lane stripping machines.

Balls jsut as they are now are vilified for vacuuming oil off the lane on every shot, by the time your ball come back any oil on it has almost vanished and is gone by the time of your next shot.

So unless your ball is oil soaked and doesn't absorb much of anything, I'd doubt cleaningg it is going to make it take much if any more oil off the lane.

Could it just be this is another case of players seeing the bowlers boogeyman?

I'd bet you if the USBC banned cleaning with anything except a towel, if someone came out with lets say "The Purple Towel" that they claimed cleaned better than microfiber.

You'd see this exact same discussion.

[Amyers]

The person could not hear it, and it DOES result in the need to move faster and further than you would without it. Believe it or not, it's up to you!

That's interesting haven't seen anyone using it here and at that price probably won't.

[bowl1820]

I'd bet you if the USBC banned cleaning with anything except a towel, if someone came out with lets say "The Purple Towel" that they claimed cleaned better than microfiber.

You'd see this exact same discussion.

This is not as far fetched as it sounds, because to a extent it has already happened.

Look up discussions about the:

Genesis® Pure Pad™ Buffalo Leather Ball Wipe Pad
Make a pure shot every time with our new ball wipe pad. Made of durable all natural genuine Buffalo Leather, the heavy nap of the Pure Pad™ effortlessly absorbs dirt and oil better than any microfiber towel or shammy ever could.
Designed to fit in the palm of your hand, you’ll notice the texture and feel the difference in weight you’ll know this isn’t just another ordinary bowling towel.

or the Storm Bowling Shammy Bowling Ball Cleaning Pad
The Storm Shammy is the ultimate oil removing pad that will bring back the tacky feel to your ball to assist in a strong backend motion. The results are tangible and work on all types of bowling balls. When Micro Fiber Towels were introduced to the bowling industry, it was a perfect solution. However, this product is so much better at removing dirt and oil from your bowling ball.

or the Master Wipe-it Dry pad
Oil is the enemy no longer. We developed the Wipe-It-Dry Pad to do just that, wipe the oil off your ball in just one pass. It works on all types of bowling balls, because it's a natural product that absorbs oil from the shell of your ball into the pores of the pad. This is a breakthrough in ball maintenance and a must-have for all bowlers.


Each of those is a small (about 5"x5"), high price ($20) ""towel"" that claims to clean better than anything else and suck the oil out of the pores on the ball.

Back when I started bowling in the Urethane days, I heard it many times "You can't use a car chamois on a ball, it's against the rule , it cleans the ball too good and alters the surface!" so it was happening back then complaining a towel cleaned too good.


here's a thought, Use the super towel with the super cleaner!

You'd pull oil out even if it was in the core and the ball would strip the lane down to the finish.:D:D:D:D

[vdubtx]

Back when I started bowling in the Urethane days, I heard it many times "You can't use a car chamois on a ball, it's against the rule , it cleans the ball too good and alters the surface!" so it was happening back then complaining a towel cleaned too good.

These "Miracle" cleaners or ball wipers will come up time and again, and it is all just something for people to complain about.

Seems many people like to just complain about their bad bowling vs. getting better and adjusting to the conditions. Every pattern on the lanes changes, so you have to be able to adjust to them. Regardless if you think the ball is taking more oil off the lane with the miracle cleaner or shammy pad your line is going to change no matter what.