If you could work on one area of your game what would it be?

[Amyers]

I have an appointment for lesson #2 tonight and my coach seems to be big on me telling him what I want to work on. It got me thinking if you were going to work on one aspect of your game what would it be?

[RobLV1]

Developing more ball speed. It seems like every center in which I bowl, the lanes are dominated by the higher speed bowlers.

[Ptnomore]

Accuracy. And Accuracy with speed. I lose accuracy when I need to add some zip or revs on the ball. For me, that has to do with my release and tension in my fore arm and elbow. I've gotten my footwork under control and have improved my swing plane when I have to open my hips. But my release still suffers and affects my accuracy.

[Amyers]

Developing more ball speed. It seems like every center in which I bowl, the lanes are dominated by the higher speed bowlers.

Yeah this is the one I would love explained to me but I've talked to everyone until I'm blue in the face about it and I get something along the lines of hold the ball higher or speed up your foot work or stand farther back all of which are great if you need an extra 1/4 to 1/2 mph. None of which explains why as not a dinosaur (40) I get the speed of a super senior. I may be averaging 11.5 now up from 10-10.5 but most of the guys I bowl against are 14-17 mph it sucks going out knowing your hitting the pins with 1/3 less out of the gate.

I know it's not ball weight, it's not my foot speed, it's not my timing and it's not where I'm starting on the approach. I think I'll have a long talk with him about this again tonight.

[fordman1]

Entry angle..

[Tony]

For me consistency would be one of my biggest issues, I can go from great to junk and back in a heartbeat. The second item would be adjusting or I should say learning when and what to adjust ahead of the curve to continue staying in control of my game.

[scottymoney]

Kicking the 10 out at the end of a 3 game series where I have moved left and the lane is fried. I can get it back to the pocket consistently now but that dang 10 pin! I have been working lately on playing deeper as the new league I bowl in is much more competitive and transition has been much faster.

[Tony]

Yeah this is the one I would love explained to me but I've talked to everyone until I'm blue in the face about it and I get something along the lines of hold the ball higher or speed up your foot work or stand farther back all of which are great if you need an extra 1/4 to 1/2 mph. None of which explains why as not a dinosaur (40) I get the speed of a super senior. I may be averaging 11.5 now up from 10-10.5 but most of the guys I bowl against are 14-17 mph it sucks going out knowing your hitting the pins with 1/3 less out of the gate.

I know it's not ball weight, it's not my foot speed, it's not my timing and it's not where I'm starting on the approach. I think I'll have a long talk with him about this again tonight.

I bowl with a guy who has the same issue, people tell him the same things and it changes very little. He is a smaller guy and throws about 9.5 to 10.5, size doesn't appear to be the issue, I have another teammate the same size 5' 4" and he is in the 17- 18 mph area. I know this doesn't help but at least you know you're not the only one.
He went to see a Gold level coach and according to him, the coach only had him hold the ball a little higher and closer to his body .....did add a .5 or so to his speed but that's not what he needs.

[Amyers]

I bowl with a guy who has the same issue, people tell him the same things and it changes very little. He is a smaller guy and throws about 9.5 to 10.5, size doesn't appear to be the issue, I have another teammate the same size 5' 4" and he is in the 17- 18 mph area. I know this doesn't help but at least you know you're not the only one.
He went to see a Gold level coach and according to him, the coach only had him hold the ball a little higher and closer to his body .....did add a .5 or so to his speed but that's not what he needs.

Well it is nice to see it's not just me. I'm 5'11" so not miniature my wife is 5'8" throws 15 mph with no problem. I at least used to have a higher speed than my 11 year old but she is consistently in the upper 12's now. I don't know if the people I've asked about it in the past don't know what the problem is or if it's just more involved than what they wanted to get.

[JasonNJ]

For me it would be moving left. Once I move more than 3 or 4 boards left I have to start changing my release for more revs to get the ball back to the pocket which of course hurts my consistency.

[Tony]

AMYERS:
Since you have ruled out a number of items what's left. Type of ball ? Arm swing height, follow through, release point on the lane, how close to the foul line do you get.
It would stand to reason a reduction in ball weight should increase speed. Putting less hand into the release ?

I'm sure you have probably looked at most of these and more but there has to be some reason.
What would happen if you tested changing to late release timing where you put more speed on with the arm ?

My buddy is very resistant to change, he throws a motiv Jackal and it's been suggested he try a pearl less aggressive ball and go to a 5 step delivery but he insists that won't help, because he doesn't want to do it . lol

[Amyers]

AMYERS:
Since you have ruled out a number of items what's left. Type of ball ? Arm swing height, follow through, release point on the lane, how close to the foul line do you get.
It would stand to reason a reduction in ball weight should increase speed. Putting less hand into the release ?

I'm sure you have probably looked at most of these and more but there has to be some reason.
What would happen if you tested changing to late release timing where you put more speed on with the arm ?

My buddy is very resistant to change, he throws a motiv Jackal and it's been suggested he try a pearl less aggressive ball and go to a 5 step delivery but he insists that won't help, because he doesn't want to do it . lol

I have pearls and hybrids now don't own any solids as with the low speed not a good mix. I'm close to the line and use a five step delivery. I had a 14 lbs ball drilled up it raised the ball speed about .25 mph lol. I've tried the less hand thing one of the things I'm doing now about .25 to half mph difference. I've also went from lofting the ball more to a more up the back of the ball release with less loft doesn't really change anything there. The arm swing height maybe a factor I don't have a high back swing but a lot of other players with adequate ball speed don't either and anytime I've tried to mess with that my game just goes down the tube. I agree there must be a reason and it's probably several factors but I would think if the typical male my size can generate 15 mph ball speed for mine to be 11 mph something should be glaringly wrong shouldn't it?

[Tony]

I have pearls and hybrids now don't own any solids as with the low speed not a good mix. I'm close to the line and use a five step delivery. I had a 14 lbs ball drilled up it raised the ball speed about .25 mph lol. I've tried the less hand thing one of the things I'm doing now about .25 to half mph difference. I've also went from lofting the ball more to a more up the back of the ball release with less loft doesn't really change anything there. The arm swing height maybe a factor I don't have a high back swing but a lot of other players with adequate ball speed don't either and anytime I've tried to mess with that my game just goes down the tube. I agree there must be a reason and it's probably several factors but I would think if the typical male my size can generate 15 mph ball speed for mine to be 11 mph something should be glaringly wrong shouldn't it?

Yes, you would think it would be a little more identifiable. Have you ever posted a video and let all the coach type members take a look at it ? Might be worth trying.

[Aslan]

It got me thinking if you were going to work on one aspect of your game what would it be?

Release.

Then, probably release.

Once I fix the approach/timing issues (like the big first step and drifting right)...I MUST get a consistent axis tilt or reading the lanes is nearly impossible.

i.e. If I throw two balls the same speed at the same target...and one misses right and the other goes Brooklyn...It's usually because I had a flat release and then really got a good release. But I can't adjust off either because I don't know whether the next shot will be good or not. :mad:

[Blomer]

Reading the lanes. I'm can't do it at all till it's too late.

[Blomer]

Reading the lane for me.

[fokai73]

Mental game. I can't get this out of my mind - that I'll bowl 420-500 the first two games then shoot 175-190 games. For the third game I'm not trusting myself, not listening to my gut, and/or making bad choices in adjustments.
Games like these: 236 279 176, 266 256, 184, 250+ 220 179 for example. I did have a triplicate 235... But other than I suck at third games

[Timmyb]

Timing. I can stay pretty consistent, but here and there everything just gets out of whack the instant I start my approach. Sometimes I can catch myself, and either stop, or correct while in step. Those are rare moments. All of this is very obvious in my scoring. If I could keep somewhat consistent, I think I could finally see that 300 game. It's almost sickening that I can go and do what I did last night (6 games, 1351, 225 average), and I still don't have a 300 game to my name.

Amyers--Post a video if you can. Not everyone is capable of 15+ kind of speed. I average 17-18 (saw an 18.5 on the board after shooting at a split), but I've always had that kind of speed, and I actually throw faster as the night goes on. And trust me, I am NOT in any kind of what you'd call "shape" (5'11", 260). I've seen guys and girls that throw lower speed, and can ring the bell every time.

[mc_runner]

Reading the lanes for me. I can get into a bad place if I'm scrambling to try and catch up - gotta stay ahead.

Amyers, how's your spine tilt through your backswing and release? For me, that's how I generate speed (I throw at 16.5 - 16.8 at the pins). I have an unconscious "dip" after my pushaway that leads to much higher backswing and speed for me. Not saying it's a good thing but something I noticed in myself.

[RobLV1]

Mental game. I can't get this out of my mind - that I'll bowl 420-500 the first two games then shoot 175-190 games. For the third game I'm not trusting myself, not listening to my gut, and/or making bad choices in adjustments.
Games like these: 236 279 176, 266 256, 184, 250+ 220 179 for example. I did have a triplicate 235... But other than I suck at third games

Having a bad third game is very common among house bowlers who either can't bring themselves to making large enough lateral moves, or sticking with very aggressive balls for too long, or both. Where does your comfort zone end? How far left can you go before you feel like you can't get the ball back to the pocket?

[JasonNJ]

Having a bad third game is very common among house bowlers who either can't bring themselves to making large enough lateral moves, or sticking with very aggressive balls for too long, or both. Where does your comfort zone end? How far left can you go before you feel like you can't get the ball back to the pocket?

So what does it mean when your 3rd game avg is the highest? I just looked at my league secretary stats and I'm averaging 187 first games, 177 2nd games and 200 for 3rd games.

[AlexNC]

I have an appointment for lesson #2 tonight and my coach seems to be big on me telling him what I want to work on. It got me thinking if you were going to work on one aspect of your game what would it be?

I would want to work on my timing, which seams to be causing some accuracy issues of late.

[J Anderson]

So what does it mean when your 3rd game avg is the highest? I just looked at my league secretary stats and I'm averaging 187 first games, 177 2nd games and 200 for 3rd games.

Most likely you're late adjusting to the transition in the second game, causing the ten pin drop from the first game. By the third game you've probably burned off any excess energy and are just trusting your swing.

[Amyers]

Well the largest portion of my lesson was moving farther back on the approach and when to make adjustments. Between the higher starting ball position and the farther back starting position the ball did seem to be traveling noticeably faster. No speed monitors in that house so I will have to wait to see how much actual progress was made. I have been very impressed with his help of moving me around and changing things with out completely throwing my timing off. In the past when I have tried to make these type of changes it's destroyed my timing and my entire game has fallen apart. That doesn't seem to be happening.

Someone asked about spine tilt and that probably is a factor I tend to be very straight up and down and rather stiff during my delivery. In the past I have always tried to have as few moving parts as possible. While I do believe this promotes accuracy it may be part of the cause of the low speed. Definitely something to investigate in a future lesson.

Had some people ask about videos. There are some older ones posted on here if you really want to take a look but I've changed a decent amount again since I posted last. I've been helped by some of the comments people have made on here before (RobM, MWhite, and some others). The issue has become that for me at this point it takes someone besides me to watch and make sure I'm not making new issues as I correct old ones.

Thank you everyone who commented you really did help me decide what to focus on.

[J Anderson]

I have an appointment for lesson #2 tonight and my coach seems to be big on me telling him what I want to work on. It got me thinking if you were going to work on one aspect of your game what would it be?

I'm tempted to say the same as Rob, getting more ball speed. The trouble is that with my current three step approach more speed tends to lead to less accuracy and/or poor timing.

Instead I think I should work on what Dean Hintz calls "observation without judgement". While I'm pretty good about watching my ball from the point it enters my field of vision until it hits the pins, I tend to lose sight of it on contact and seldom see where it exits the pin deck. I also tend to stop watching shots that I know are way off target.

[Aslan]

Developing more ball speed. It seems like every center in which I bowl, the lanes are dominated by the higher speed bowlers.
There are times I wish I could donate 2mph to you. I think it would help both our games!


Well the largest portion of my lesson was moving farther back on the approach
I've had multiple coaches tell me the same thing about ball speed. If you want "faster", move back in the approach. If you want "slower", move up in the approach. The theory behind that is, your body will adjust to the distance automatically. Your mind knows where you need to end up...so without even trying, your feet will speed up or slow down accordingly.

But you're absolutely right that approach changes will cause timing issues that you then need to tweak/fix.

This has been a tough thing for me to learn and has taken a couple years...because I have a tendency to use a very big first step (as many on here pointed out early on). So if I move up to slow down, then take a huge first step...I have to practically tip toe like Fred Flinstone to avoid fouling. But if I move way back....sometimes I really mess up my timing because if my feet don't adjust enough....my swing changes to compensate...then timing issues.

But speed is 80% feet, 10% power, and 10% build. At least that's how I'd characterize it. And if you watch most of the high level pros, they start so far back on the approach that their heel is virtually hanging off the back of the approach. That's how those tiny guys like Norm Duke and Pete Weber generate the ball speed and power that they do. They aren't tall, and they aren't bodybuilders. They just move very fast, have perfect slides, and transfer that momentum into the shot with near perfect timing and a consistent release. Add in a single-pin spare conversion % of over 95%...and you're a Hall of Famer. When you watch the PBA50 (which I enjoy more), you see much slower speeds, lower strike rates, more importance on spare shooting, etc...

That's why Parker Bohn is such a stud. He rolls into the PBA50 and at times has been unstoppable because he has all the skill and experience of those PBA50 guys but the speed of a 21-year old...not to mention the inherent lefty advantage.

[Amyers]

There are times I wish I could donate 2mph to you. I think it would help both our games!


I've had multiple coaches tell me the same thing about ball speed. If you want "faster", move back in the approach. If you want "slower", move up in the approach. The theory behind that is, your body will adjust to the distance automatically. Your mind knows where you need to end up...so without even trying, your feet will speed up or slow down accordingly.

But you're absolutely right that approach changes will cause timing issues that you then need to tweak/fix.

This has been a tough thing for me to learn and has taken a couple years...because I have a tendency to use a very big first step (as many on here pointed out early on). So if I move up to slow down, then take a huge first step...I have to practically tip toe like Fred Flinstone to avoid fouling. But if I move way back....sometimes I really mess up my timing because if my feet don't adjust enough....my swing changes to compensate...then timing issues.

But speed is 80% feet, 10% power, and 10% build. At least that's how I'd characterize it. And if you watch most of the high level pros, they start so far back on the approach that their heel is virtually hanging off the back of the approach. That's how those tiny guys like Norm Duke and Pete Weber generate the ball speed and power that they do. They aren't tall, and they aren't bodybuilders. They just move very fast, have perfect slides, and transfer that momentum into the shot with near perfect timing and a consistent release. Add in a single-pin spare conversion % of over 95%...and you're a Hall of Famer. When you watch the PBA50 (which I enjoy more), you see much slower speeds, lower strike rates, more importance on spare shooting, etc...

That's why Parker Bohn is such a stud. He rolls into the PBA50 and at times has been unstoppable because he has all the skill and experience of those PBA50 guys but the speed of a 21-year old...not to mention the inherent lefty advantage.

I agree you two less and me two more we would both be better off. So far my timing has faired well with the changes but we will see if that continues.

[Mark O]

I think I would have to say my footwork. I tend to drift to the right, especially when I have to move in and it really restricts my ability to actually play deeper.

[fokai73]

Having a bad third game is very common among house bowlers who either can't bring themselves to making large enough lateral moves, or sticking with very aggressive balls for too long, or both. Where does your comfort zone end? How far left can you go before you feel like you can't get the ball back to the pocket?

It's crazy, my highest averages (8 to 10 years ago) was when I played 18-25 at the arrows. These days I rarely go past the 4th and ball down. For some reason or another, I don't trust my game anymore playing pasted the 4th arrow. Ever since I started playing straighter for the last 8 years, visually playing inside, it's not the same like before. I was comfortable playing inside and in front of the ball return. Not anymore. Even Ball returns that are closer to the foul line on the approach, bug me when going for my 10 pin. The rails rub against my knee lol.

When I do ball down, it's off of a medium high RG ball. I haven't used premium equipment, or aggressive ball for THS leagues in a long while. My vivid was the last one I've owned and used for my sport league couple of years ago. In my bag I have a medium/benchmark ball and a urethane.

Anyway, this trend has to stop. I have leagues tonight and I'll see what I can do to over come this mental block. I'm just a few sticks from 220's again, but if I continue to suck like this, that's not going to happen - getting to 220 and beyond. I just make the wrong choices when I have a good first two games. Not every third game sucks. Only when I know I'll have a big set.

[RobLV1]

It's crazy, my highest averages (8 to 10 years ago) was when I played 18-25 at the arrows. These days I rarely go past the 4th and ball down. For some reason or another, I don't trust my game anymore playing pasted the 4th arrow. Ever since I started playing straighter for the last 8 years, visually playing inside, it's not the same like before. I was comfortable playing inside and in front of the ball return. Not anymore. Even Ball returns that are closer to the foul line on the approach, bug me when going for my 10 pin. The rails rub against my knee lol.

When I do ball down, it's off of a medium high RG ball. I haven't used premium equipment, or aggressive ball for THS leagues in a long while. My vivid was the last one I've owned and used for my sport league couple of years ago. In my bag I have a medium/benchmark ball and a urethane.

Anyway, this trend has to stop. I have leagues tonight and I'll see what I can do to over come this mental block. I'm just a few sticks from 220's again, but if I continue to suck like this, that's not going to happen - getting to 220 and beyond. I just make the wrong choices when I have a good first two games. Not every third game sucks. Only when I know I'll have a big set.

Have you checked your footwork? Do you tend to drift to the right when you get too far inside?

[fokai73]

Have you checked your footwork? Do you tend to drift to the right when you get too far inside?

I normally walk 1 to 1. I'll have to check to make sure the next time I play deeper than I am now. but I think I have been drifting right a board or two right, but that wasn't even playing "deep". my lay down was 22 to just right of the 4th arrow to the spot down lane.

I have to really check my foot work when not playing the track or up the boards. Also, I went back to a four step approach not to long ago.

[NewToBowling]

I'd like to work on making the pins bottoms more rounded. I'm all in on easy strikes :)

[Jekyll & Hyde]

if it was me i would have to work on reading the lanes a bit better and making the right adjustments

[Kells]

I would work on shot repeatability. Recently I can't string 2 shots together than in any way resemble each other. And it seems like once I correct a problem, another one surfaces. I know need a good coach but money is pretty tight these days with the holidays quickly approaching

[SAbowler]

There are a plethora of things that I need to work on, but the one thing I think I need the most help with is my timing. I feel like most of my misses are due to poor timing. I've been working on it and I feel like it's coming along, but it still needs more work.

[RobLV1]

There are a plethora of things that I need to work on, but the one thing I think I need the most help with is my timing. I feel like most of my misses are due to poor timing. I've been working on it and I feel like it's coming along, but it still needs more work.

To perfect your timing, simply work on posting every shot you throw... strikes and spares alike. It is impossible to post your shot if your timing is off.

[jab5325]

Footwork is the root of all of my evils. Of course.........I could say the mental game to keep my footwork in check!

[zdawg]

Yeah this is the one I would love explained to me but I've talked to everyone until I'm blue in the face about it and I get something along the lines of hold the ball higher or speed up your foot work or stand farther back all of which are great if you need an extra 1/4 to 1/2 mph. None of which explains why as not a dinosaur (40) I get the speed of a super senior.

I feel your pain, I have the same problem. What I do know for SURE, is that when I feel my slide perfect/balanced and just a perfect throw (you know the one where it comes off your hand and you don't even have to watch to know its a strike) with seemingly no physical effort whatsoever the ball tends to move 2-3 mph faster. The monitor usually records my strike shot at 14 mph, and I throw my spare/straight shots in the 20-22 mph range with very little effort - there is obviously something very wrong I'm doing when I throw a strike shot.

I also know, when some scrawny 150 lb guy walks up and throws the ball 17-18 mph with ease, I get really uber frustrated so much so that I generally turn away when I know somebody like that is bowling - otherwise I get so mad I end up muscling the ball for the rest of the night and it turns into a complete disaster.

I worked on this a tiny bit last lesson with Mark Baker, but there were other issues he wanted to address first, he assured me the speed would come. Unfortunately that last lesson was over a year ago, and I can't really take time off work to drive an hour north on the one or two Tuesday mornings that he comes down somewhat close to my area.

My frustration with not being able to find a coach in the San Diego area is one of the leading factors in my considering giving the game up at the end of the season (unless I get my side business going well enough that I can quit my full time gig - at that point I can take over every Tuesday morning for the rest of my life LOL). Unfortunately most of the coaches on bowl.com in my area don't list contact info, and the 2-3 that do moved out of the area years ago or simply just don't know how to check their email....:mad:

[RobLV1]

This last post is full of insights! When you don't try to "throw" the ball and just let it go, speed increases dramatically. At spares, you are not "trying" to hook the ball so you throw it 6-8 mph faster. Now all you have to do is to realize that modern reactive balls hook all by themselves... they don't need any help from you!

[zdawg]

This last post is full of insights! When you don't try to "throw" the ball and just let it go, speed increases dramatically. At spares, you are not "trying" to hook the ball so you throw it 6-8 mph faster. Now all you have to do is to realize that modern reactive balls hook all by themselves... they don't need any help from you!

Yeah I know you're right, I just need to get back to doing practice sessions where I can actually allow myself to just do that and not care about the score. I literally haven't had a practice session in about a year, so the fact that everytime I bowl the score counts reinforces me NOT trying to experiment...it's a vicious cycle :cool:

[fokai73]

Zdawg, you're in San Diego? Mark Baker is in the Anaheim area. Ever tried seeing him?

[zdawg]

Zdawg, you're in San Diego? Mark Baker is in the Anaheim area. Ever tried seeing him?

Yep I have. The problem is that I live/work in downtown San Diego, and he usually only comes down as far south as Oceanside two Tuesdays out of the month (which is about 45-50 minutes from me). When I didn't have my current job I would go see him occasionally as he usually only had 10amish slots open which unfortunately becomes very difficult with the current job. But I'm going to give him a call this week and see if he can schedule something later in the day for me, he's a good guy so we'll see what happens.

Also one of my new team members mentioned to me last night a guy by the name of Steve Smith, I haven't met him but apparently he's local and he's a pretty good bowler and coach http://blog.timesunion.com/bowling/player-profile-usbc-team-usa-member-steve-smith/1455/ so I'm gonna give him a try too since he's right here in San Diego.

[Aslan]

Zdawg, you're in San Diego? Mark Baker is in the Anaheim area. Ever tried seeing him?

ZDawg's one area he hopes to improve at is his record in the Annual Billy Hardwick Memorial Aslan vs. ZDawg Southern California Invitational.

It's one thing to lose every year to me, but last year he even finished behind Mike (MWhite)! :confused: And there's no excuse for that. ;)

[dougb]

I'm with the others that say more ball speed.