Is two-handed bowling unfair?

[foreverincamo]

Been reading some articles from Mike Machuga and Brian Voss. Both seem to dislike the two-handed style to the point of wanting it abolished. Voss also wants modern bowling balls outlawed and a return to plastic only. Choogs runs a tournament in Erie, PA that specifies plastic balls only, two balls per bowler max, and all balls are checked before being allowed for use.
I have no problem with two-handers myself. I bowled with plastic and the early urethane balls. The original Hammers from Faball, the AMF Angles, Ebonite Thunderbolt, to name a few. I watched as balls were introduced with "cores" that seemingly hooked by themselves being used on TV. The game is always evolving and it's easy to see that if you don't keep up with things, the game passes you by and you're done.
Any thoughts on these guys? Go back to plastic balls, long oil , strokers winning everything and no two-handers?

[Blomer]

No issues with two handers. It's not against the rules, so why not? Can you imagine if they try to do away with it after everything Belmo has done for bowling. Belmo alone has done so much for bowling with regards to bringing in the youth and more. If bowling stayed plastic balls same oil patterns etc, bowling would be far less popular. Every sport changes.

[JasonNJ]

I don't have a problem with it. For me it's just innovation, 2 handers found another way to bowl which executed properly has some inherent advantages. I think people who have a problem with it would have also had problems back in the day with the forward pass in football and pitching overhand in baseball.

[fortheloveofbowling]

What they probably would be ok with is going back to pre resin. What we have to understand is they are primarily talking about competition at the highest levels. Many many pros would be ok with it as well. If you watch qualifying and even on the telecasts you will see that the majority of players most of the time try to create a ball motion that really mirrors urethane reactions of the 80's. That is unless the conditions are there for the taking like this week at the players with some miss area. But what happens then? People start complaining about the shot being to easy. I guarantee if you asked Walter Ray Williams about the conditions this week he would say it is to easy.

Many people point to some of the larger high level junior tournaments for the future growth of the sport. Consider this: the Teen Masters allows 2 bowling balls for competition: a plastic ball and a urethane ball. By all accounts the kids love it. What does that tell you? It tells me the future higher level bowlers want to learn the skills that have always been required for success in our sport. Unfortunately those skills don't have to be present in many houses and that bothers some.

ABC/USBC membership has declined EVERY year since 1981. The first urethane ball The AMF Angle came out that year and ball technology has continued to evolve since. That is not the main reason for participation decline and would probably be down fairly far on a big list i could make. But, we can't ignore some contribution to that decline. The modern game just requires so much more technical equipment knowledge now it is really not even worth comparing.

I could write a ton more about all of this and be considered stuck in the past but i kept bowling and will forever no matter the changes.

[foreverincamo]

Find it amazing the similarities between golf and bowling when discussing equipment. Over-sized drivers that average 350 yard drives, endless putter choices, hybrid clubs, golf balls that go for miles then stop on a dime. Yet nowhere near the claims that its ruining the sport.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Find it amazing the similarities between golf and bowling when discussing equipment. Over-sized drivers that average 350 yard drives, endless putter choices, hybrid clubs, golf balls that go for miles then stop on a dime. Yet nowhere near the claims that its ruining the sport.

The difference is that if you buy the same clubs as Rory Mcilroy you won't go out and shoot 65 and every golfer knows that. Then throw in the thought of some bowlers that when they shoot 750 they are ready to compete at the next tour stop.

[foreverincamo]

Perhaps, but only on THS, not on a heavy volume 47' pattern the pros play on.

[fordman1]

Yes ban 2 handers.

Why not rubber too not just plastic?

[NewToBowling]

If you ban 2 handlers then you need two separate divisions: Right Handed and Left Handed

One in the same

[RobLV1]

Does it occur to anyone here that bowling's main sponsors are ball manufacturers? Go back to plastic or rubber and you go back to one ball per bowler and the death of the little bit that's left of the sport.

[Amyers]

Does it occur to anyone here that bowling's main sponsors are ball manufacturers? Go back to plastic or rubber and you go back to one ball per bowler and the death of the little bit that's left of the sport.

This nailed it. The ball manufactures are the one group that is still making money in the bowling world of today. Kill the one golden goose you have left? I'm not a fan of the two hander style but I don't hate it either. I do wonder if we will reach a point where it's throw that way or don't compete at the higher ends of the sport which is really going to suck.

I liked the idea with the oil patterns and 8 week schedule Brian was referring too. I think it's kind of sad that my daughter who bowls various tournaments routinely bowls on tougher conditions than I ever do. The one place I see bowling growing is in the youth divisions they maybe less of them but they are competing in a much higher level and organized fashion than was ever available when I was younger. I have hopes that her generation that grew up competing in these tournaments on sport patterns and challenge shots will demand a change in the league scene instead of whining like my generation seems too but I'm just not sure if they there will be enough of them to really change the sport.

[fordman1]

League bowlers are the money pit. League bowlers pay for almost everything. You want to kill bowling, kill the leagues. Change the shot and within a year half will bowl in non certified leagues and the smart owners will give then the dreaded house shot. I agree the youth bowlers bowl on sports shots but mostly because that is what they are made to use. Once school is over they quit for the most part. They can not afford it with low paying entry jobs. No good paying union jobs anymore.

[Jessiewoodard57]

Two handed or one to me makes no difference each has their own challenges ...I could not imagine having to loft the left gutter cap to make it back to the pocket as Belmo does from time to time. As long as they have the same rules to follow as everyone else don't see what the deal is. You don't see the pros calling foul why should we?

[ep1977]

I wouldn't want to ban 2 handed bowling but I do think it should be a separate division. They should compete with themselves and the traditional bowlers against each other.

[foreverincamo]

My original post shows it IS the pros, albeit two of them, who are complaining about the two-handlers and the equipment. I guess what's funny is the first movement away from rubber balls were the colorful plastic balls. They didn't hook any more than rubber, but they were pretty.
Then urethane came out, and balls could hook a bit more. Everyone was buying them, amateurs and pros. Then came the newer core shapes, and with them a little more hook. And finally reactive resin and crazy cores that act like engines that create hook with very little effort.
I was a "cranker" when I was much, much younger. I threw a hook every bit as big as I do now. Except now I'm not blistering my thumb and fingers and ruining my wrist trying to put all that torque on the ball. I can either roll up the back of the ball, hit up the side of the ball, or roll my hand around the ball like tossing a football underhand and create hook with a quarter of the effort.
Sorry, but I like the new balls. Hell, I own 9 different balls now. 3 three-ball totes. And I enjoy the game just as much as I did when I was younger and wanted to go pro. And when I turn 50 in a few years, I'm going to do just that.

[vdubtx]

I wouldn't want to ban 2 handed bowling but I do think it should be a separate division. They should compete with themselves and the traditional bowlers against each other.

That would mean you need a separate division for lefties too. Since they hardly ever have to compete on burned conditions? :rolleyes::p

[Jessiewoodard57]

When Nascar went and changed the rules as to points It just was not the same Nascar anymore. Your big names like Richard Petty and Dale Earnhardt would not have the championships they do under the scoring of modern racing. It's more luck then skill that wins a championship now. Many people just stopped following the side show. I think we need to learn from their mistakes and leave things alone.

When we start forming off shoot divisions 2 handed and 1 handed, Left and right, where will it end? With a lot of people just throwing their hands up and walking away. A lot of wisdom in the old saying "if it isn't broke don't fix it" or even the KISS " Keep It Simple Stupid". just my humble opinion.

[JasonNJ]

That would mean you need a separate division for lefties too. Since they hardly ever have to compete on burned conditions? :rolleyes::p

Why stop there? Guys with 500+ rev rates throwing it one handed isn't fair either. They should have their own division too. :cool:

[foreverincamo]

These responses show that there just isn't a simple solution. It seems to me that professional bowling is making a comeback. With the PWBA back, and now all their finals are televised ( not live ) it's just getting better. What bowling needs to do is recruit from the college players and get a real youth movement going and continuing. Get more sponsors and more money and make it so being a bowler can be your ONLY job and not your second job. Then bowling can truly blossom.

[jab5325]

These responses show that there just isn't a simple solution. It seems to me that professional bowling is making a comeback. With the PWBA back, and now all their finals are televised ( not live ) it's just getting better. What bowling needs to do is recruit from the college players and get a real youth movement going and continuing. Get more sponsors and more money and make it so being a bowler can be your ONLY job and not your second job. Then bowling can truly blossom.

Bingo.

League bowling is still dead in many areas.

But, there is progress being made in other areas. A strong youth program to open up a pipeline to adult leagues is crucial to the sport.

[Amyers]

I've said it before I don't really have a dog in this fight but right now your seeing a few of the two handers have success in 5-10 more years how interested are you going to be watching the TV Finals where 4 out of the top 5 don't throw the ball two handed? Myself I'm just not sure how interested I'm going to be in that. It's not even remotely relatable to my game. At what point do you lose interest?

I bowl with some seriously talented two handers and I've seen the way they simply can overpower a pattern that you just can't do bowling one handed. Right now I don't care if they get first and I finished 15th I'm still in the money and I don't quite bowl at that level anyway but ten years from now when there are 20 of these guys throwing this way I'm not sure I'm going to be so happy about it

[vdubtx]

Excellent post from Jason Belmonte on Facebook regarding the Brian Voss post this week.
Have to post in 2 due to characeter limit. Also tried to make it easier to read here as when I copied and pasted it was one huge blob of text. :cool:


Rather long post...this is my comment on the blog Brian Voss wrote about ‪#‎2hands‬ bowling.
If you had the attention of a large number of people? How would you handle it? What would you say and more importantly how would you say it?
Knowing my place within the bowling industry as an accomplished bowler and knowing what I represent as a person, I take questions like these very seriously. It's something I think about daily. It's important that I choose my words carefully, make sure that what I say is accurate by using facts and logic rather then just having an opinion born out of emotion like so many others. I like to have fun and for the most part I stay out of some of the petty discussions that really hurt our sport.

That being said, I just couldn't stay on the sidelines with everything that's been said in the last couple days. There are some who want to trample the sport I love and the way in which I compete. I think this sport has much to offer today and so, here a some thoughts.....

Seems like the discussions center around technology and two handed bowling for the most part.
I do not want to go too far in talking about technology in bowling other then to say, I trust the experts of today. The manufacturers, the USBC, the PBA all have smart people who are working in these areas, far smarter than I, and I have to trust in their direction. I do not have time at this point to obtain and research the factual data I want about technology in bowling and the positives it has on bowling or the skills/talents it takes to use/adjust with equipment to be a better player. I plan to look into it more however.

Bowling should be incredibly thankful to the manufacturers of equipment. During a period where bowling hasn’t been able to find outside industry sponsor money, the manufactures (all of them) have given collectively, millions of dollars to support the sport at all levels. If the manufacturers do not make money how then can they inject funds back into bowling? More importantly, if they aren’t the ones injecting money back into bowling, who will? Would a roll back in technology at this point result in more equipment sold and therefore more dollars infused into the sport? I do not know the answer to that but I question those who think they do with some of the things being said. My message would be to be careful not to bite the hand that feeds you!

However, I will happily entertain the subject about 2 handed bowling of which I do know a thing or two about.
A comment was made that I take exception with:
“The ascent of two handed bowling in my opinion is like a slow cancer to an already diseased sport. It has created massive polarity from the traditionalists to them.”

This is an incredibly bold statement to make, one I completely disagree with. The suggestion that by simply bowling a different way to what is deemed ‘proper’ is cancerous to bowling is no more than an opinion. There is no factual data proving that an increase in popularity of bowling would occur if one particular style is chosen as the only style and another, the two handed delivery was eliminated.
In fact, in talking with some experts that operate youth bowling in the U.S, the two handed revolution is growing the sport inside and around youth bowling for many reasons. The first is obvious, studies have shown that small children (less then 80 lbs or 36kgs) can't handle the minimum weight of the ball and so they start bowling with two hands at a younger age then they could with one handed bowling. That's a good thing. This segment and having them grow an attraction for the sport is where we see growth of the style more evident, right? So clearly if the style is a cancer in a disease ridden industry, we must see youth bowling suffering?
Let’s take a look at some factual data about the future generations of bowling. There are a lot of positives going on in our sport!

USBC Junior gold (6500+ members), USBC high school (100,000+ kids, 54000+ at the varsity level alone) and USBC collegiate (200+ schools) are at all time highs. With the introduction of the younger divisions at Junior gold the event has more then doubled in size over the past four years. I don't know how many kids bowling in this event today are using two hands (I’ll be attending this years event though, so I’ll see for myself) but I hear from attendees, both youth bowlers and parents alike, it's growing and gaining steam because the kids have more fun doing it and they are more competitive. They are developing their bowling skills faster due to the weight of the ball issue I talked about earlier. They can start earlier, knock more pins down earlier, begin a love for the sport earlier and see that love grow faster. These are all great things for the sport, I'm proud to say.

(Side note, the USBC should be applauded for their involvement in the growth of youth bowling in the USA. These numbers prove they are doing many things right to protect and grow the future of our sport!)
The most interesting trend, if these factual numbers were not interesting enough is that there is no polarity because of the style in the youth ranks or within the two handed bowling community. We two handers do not ‘hate’ one handers, we two handers do not claim that we are doing it right and everyone else is doing it wrong. So the only people who are making it an issue are the traditionalists who choose to disagree with the delivery for no reason other than because it’s not how they were taught the game.

I decided to ask this question to see what a couple of the best youth bowlers in the world had to say regarding the style and whether or not the future stars of the game see bowling 2 handed as a cancerous infection like this HOF.
“The kids don’t care nearly as much as the adults do. It’s the older generation complaining, the youth don’t complain at all.”
18 year old Kameron Doyle, arguably the best 18 year old bowler in the world doesn’t agree with Mr. Voss, nor do any of his friends.
“No one I know or hang out with think it’s cheating. I don’t know how people think it is – all bowlers have the same 60ft to the pins.”

“I am not against two handed bowling at all – for a sport to grow, the sport needs to evolve. Your success brings excitement to the kids watching and they want to bowl like you. You bring more bowlers in, not push them out.”
This said by a one handed, thumb using bowler who is the future of our sport.
Another super star of the future is Matt Farber. A 21 year old, team USA member who echoes a similar view held by Kameron. Matt is also is a one handed, thumb using bowler.
“Personally I have a very different outlook to two handed bowling because we’re more used to it, you don’t see older players use it. We see you and we see a lot of young bowlers doing it. We see it as normal. We have grown up competing against 2 handers. The older guys have competed against traditional styles their whole careers and now something new is beating them, it makes them bitter I think.”
I asked Matt if his circle of friends has ever, or if he had ever heard other kids talk about banning the style because it was cheating or unfair.
“NO, It’s never been discussed at all. If you’re going to limit a style then you are going to open a huge can of worms. What’s next, are we going to limit rev rates and back swing heights too?”
The difference I see between an older more traditional thinker to the views of the younger generation is simple.
One generation is accepting of change, the other finds it cancerous.

Another comment that was made.....
"First of all, there must be rules in place that dictate how this is game is played. EVERYONE must use one hand, and with this hand, the thumb must be used"
Traditionalist are incredibly hypocritical if ever their argument is that they bowl the ‘right way’. What makes their technique right and the techniques before and after them wrong?
Did a bowling God come down thousands of years ago invent the game that I am unaware of and proclaim that the intended way of bowling shall be exactly the way some see it?
I mean if you want to get technical, couldn't the generation before this hall of famer argue that the game was intended to be played with one finger and the thumb? That's how the generation before him bowled... so why isn't that the right way?
Let’s not ignore that if his mandate were to become law we would alienate those with disabilities. People like Josh McKinney who at the age of two had his arms and legs amputated. Check this video out to watch this legend bowl. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2YZBVuMAqU)
Will you tell Josh he is now excluded from a sport he loves?

I'm sorry Mr. Voss, I have the upmost respect for your accomplishments in the game but what you are communicating is simply wrong.

[vdubtx]

Part 2


Another comment.
“The accelerated progression that they obtain, as compared to what used to take many, many years to hone the necessary technique to deliver it with one hand is one of the reasons. Secondly, the moment that two hands are used, they obtain more spin than almost all of the traditionalists who spent years to develop the delivery with one hand. It is a totally different method of delivery. The fundamentals are NOT the same. Is it not enough to say, as evidenced in many tournaments of recent, that teenagers can now beat seasoned veterans, including the best in the world?”

I disagree. I believe the accelerated progression of talent in bowling has to do with the fact that coaching is better now, with online resources that are at every bowlers finger tips and knowledge is shared faster and easier today.
It was also stated that younger bowlers shouldn't be able to beat seasoned veterans.....

Teenagers beating adults isn’t something new in sports either. In fact name me a sport where a 50 year old player even has a chance to compete with a 19 year old every single week?
Look at every other major sport in the USA. Soccer (football), NBA, NFL, MLB, tennis and golf are perfect examples of young talent outperforming veterans each and every week. Why would bowling be different?
The younger generation, with all this coaching available are just as talented but probably stronger, fitter and have developed techniques far different to their heroes of the past. But, make no mistake, it's their heroes that drive the affinity.
Instead of bashing these kids with early success in bowling, disrespecting their accomplishments and criminating their talents, we should be celebrating their victories!
Maybe it’s because bowling has never seen teenagers beat older veterans before? (Begin sarcastic tone) Wait a minute…..Norm Duke and Mike Aulby had success as teenagers? How dare two of the greatest bowlers to ever live beat the worlds best at the time, when they were teenagers. Surely they were cheating? (end sarcastic tone)
The truly greatest players of all time don’t trap themselves in a battle with what the present is compared to what the past was - they adapt and win.

With evolution in sports, we find ways to be better, more efficiently evolve. Through science we learn what foods to eat to improve performance, what exercises/training programs to do. Access to information is readily available online for all to read and learn. I’d be more worried if with all the resources out there and access to these resources, the progression of skill wasn’t accelerated from yesteryear.
The fact is – there is no intended or proper way to bowl the ball, there are just different ways to do it while staying behind a foul line. Consider bowling a ball similar to high jump and how Dick Fosbury changed that sport. Was jumping over the bar backwards normal? No, but the object of high jump is about how high you can jump, not how you jump. Bowling is about how many pins you knock over, not how you do it. There are no extra points in bowling for correct and proper technique. It’s just who knocked over the most pins.

The current PBA Player of the year is two handed, the current PBA Rookie of the year is two handed, the current PBA TOC and USBC Masters champions are two handed and we have thousands of two handed bowlers joining the ranks of competitive bowling.

The only thing I see that’s cancerous about all this is all the negativity. Our sport deserves to be celebrated for some of the great things that are going on. I agree most of them are in the area of youth, but sooner rather than later this new generation will be adults of the bowling world and I look forward to watching that group in the future. Celebrating their accomplishments no matter how they deliver the ball.
Two handed bowling is here, it's growing, it will continue to grow and I believe coupled that with all the one handed bowling that exists, the future shines brighter.
Jason Belmonte

[NewToBowling]

Jason Belmonte **mic drop**

[vdubtx]

jason belmonte **mic drop**

lol!

[fordman1]

What next? In the future what if a person is born with 3 arms and wants to be a Boxer? :p

[Jessiewoodard57]

Thanks Vdubtx for posting that FB post By Belmo I follow his facebook and somehow missed that one. WOW that Josh McKinney is exciting! I had not thought about it until I saw that video of Josh McKinney but I too am very much a none traditional bowler in that I have no approach since I am disabled and bowl from a power chair. All of the league bowlers I bowl with are great and accept the fact that it might take me a few seconds longer to get lined up at the foul line to roll the ball. The bottom line is we compete against ourselves to get better and if you are not enjoying the game because of the way someone else plays it maybe that person needs to consider weather the game is for them. For some its all about the money for the rest of us its about the challenge and the fun getting there. Best feeling I ever had is having the front 7 and realize that the old man in the wheel chair has an audience. Had I not known they where there I might have done a lot better then the 235 I scored. Lets encourage the young and enjoy the game.

[fortheloveofbowling]

That was excellent writing on the part of Mr Belmonte. As i have said i don't care for 2 handed bowling and like amyers said i have a hard time relating to it. I really just prefer watching the traditional style. Having said that the 2 handed style is here and we have to compete against it or quit. I made a comment a while back though and will reiterate this thought. My fear is that the 2 handed style while still somewhat of a novelty percentage wise on the pba tour could become overwhelming normal. At that point alot more people may have a hard time relating to it. I am referring to casual bowlers and the general public which still i believe are a certain percentage of viewership and have interest in the higher levels of bowling.

We have all played basketball, football, soccer, baseball, etc. etc. etc. When we turn on the tv and watch professionals play these games while we can't perform at those levels we still see the game we played as a youth. Now we as long time bowlers and even new bowlers on this site understand that 2 handers are a evolution of the game but many casual fans may think: what is this? My fear is at that point our game is viewed as some sort of odd activity and not taken as seriously as now. All of us that know the history of the game and past relevance realize the seriousness given to this sport has already fallen massively in the past 3-4 decades. I believe this is one reason for the lack of sponsorship. So in the future if only the hard core bowlers and no casual fans bowler or otherwise can relate, how can we expect everyday companies to invest in advertising?

I am not saying ban 2 handers for the future of the sport. But, coaches must continue to emphasize that you don't have to throw 2 handed like belmo, jesper, simonson, troup, etc to be successful.

[NYMIKE]

That was excellent writing on the part of Mr Belmonte. As i have said i don't care for 2 handed bowling and like amyers said i have a hard time relating to it. I really just prefer watching the traditional style. Having said that the 2 handed style is here and we have to compete against it or quit. I made a comment a while back though and will reiterate this thought. My fear is that the 2 handed style while still somewhat of a novelty percentage wise on the pba tour could become overwhelming normal. At that point alot more people may have a hard time relating to it. I am referring to casual bowlers and the general public which still i believe are a certain percentage of viewership and have interest in the higher levels of bowling.

We have all played basketball, football, soccer, baseball, etc. etc. etc. When we turn on the tv and watch professionals play these games while we can't perform at those levels we still see the game we played as a youth. Now we as long time bowlers and even new bowlers on this site understand that 2 handers are a evolution of the game but many casual fans may think: what is this? My fear is at that point our game is viewed as some sort of odd activity and not taken as seriously as now. All of us that know the history of the game and past relevance realize the seriousness given to this sport has already fallen massively in the past 3-4 decades. I believe this is one reason for the lack of sponsorship. So in the future if only the hard core bowlers and no casual fans bowler or otherwise can relate, how can we expect everyday companies to invest in advertising?

I am not saying ban 2 handers for the future of the sport. But, coaches must continue to emphasize that you don't have to throw 2 handed like belmo, jesper, simonson, troup, etc to be successful.

Actually if a casual bowler who does not watch pba walks into a local alley and sees a decent 2 hander for the first time, they be mighty impressed with their speed and revs.

[Blacksox1]

Is two-handed bowling unfair? No, it is not.

[Jaescrub]

I don't not think that's its unfair. I also would never want to limit or make light of how someone else Bowls. I have seen some crazy releases and even started my bowling with an unorthadox style.

[Turkey Track Hammer]

I don't think it's unfair either. I wonder as this trend continues though. How many bowlers over the age of 50 will be using this technique if any.

[epiepenburg]

I don't think it's unfair either. I wonder as this trend continues though. How many bowlers over the age of 50 will be using this technique if any.

I've seen video of Walter Ray doing it.

[Briantime]

Unfair? Since it's not against the rules, I don't think you can reasonably call it unfair.

However, I think it makes bowling too easy and never should have been allowed in the first place.

[Turkey Track Hammer]

I've seen video of Walter Ray doing it.

The reason I ask about the age thing is. I have read many times, that a lot of 2 handers started this at a very early age. The reason being that the balls were to heavy for them at the time. So as a person enters their senior years and not being as strong as they once were. Would they take up the 2 handed approach. From what I have seen. it looks like the whole delivery and technique is geared for a younger person. I'm not sure it is harder on the body or not but. at times it appears it could be.

[chrono00]

I've seen video of Walter Ray doing it.


Walter doing it for fun once in a while is different

I think he means, the 20-30 yr olds on tour now, after doing it consistently for years and years, will the wear and tear the two handed style takes on their body allow them to continue doing it when they get to that age.

[foreverincamo]

So many different thoughts on the two-handed style. I also thought about switching to two-hands if it comes down to not being able to bowl without pain one-handed. I don't see it as making the game easier. Sometimes some of the two-handlers can out-hook everyone else and score better on some oil patterns. But they don't score well on some oil patterns.

[jab5325]

I've seen video of Walter Ray doing it.


That's one video I'd love to see!

[JasonNJ]

That's one video I'd love to see!

There's a few on YouTube. He does it when he's fooling around. I've only seen him throw it once in an actual match and it was his last frame where he already lost to Amleto Monacelli.