My new Melee Hook

[ChuckR]

My arsenal is now
Mastermind Genius with RG Diff of .052 with 40x4x30 and 4 3/8 by 1 Up Pap.
RotoGrip UpRoar with RG Diff of .030 " ". I don't have the layout the PSO used and they can't find it.

Melee Hook with RG Diff of .050 " "
In looking at the Reviews for this ball there were 2 very different drillings. 70x5x20 and 45x4x65.


The Drilling Angle affects the length of the skid phase of the ball. The higher the drilling angle, the longer the skid phase of the ball. The lower the drilling angle, the quicker the transition into the hook phase of the ball. The drilling angle limits are 10°-90°.
The Angle to the VAL affects how quickly the ball transitions through the hook phase of the ball; how long the ball remains in the hook phase. The Angle to VAL limits are 20°-70°. Smaller angles rev up faster and transition faster from hook into the roll phase of the ball.
The Locator Pin to PAP distance affects the percentage of the ball's flare potential available; the length and total hook. Lower flare increases total length and lessens the total hook of the ball. The Locator Pin to PAP distance limits are 0"-6.75".

With this information it will be an interesting discussion with the PSO I have layout the Melee Hook.

[RobLV1]

Don't mess with different drillings, it's very old school when static weights were the only way to affect ball reaction other than surface. Knowing your style, I'd use the same layout that you have on the Genius.

[ChuckR]

Don't mess with different drillings, it's very old school when static weights were the only way to affect ball reaction other than surface. Knowing your style, I'd use the same layout that you have on the Genius.
The Genius is Asymetrical and the Melee Hook is Symetrical. The setting for the Genius Mike drilled indicates it starts early in transitions to Hook and Roll and doesn't take full advantage of the flare potential. It seems the only way to keep this working on oily condtions is to keep the surface dull.
Why would I NOT want to modify the Melee Hook to take a little longer into each phase and a 5"+ Pin to Pap?

[RobLV1]

The Genius is Asymetrical and the Melee Hook is Symetrical. The setting for the Genius Mike drilled indicates it starts early in transitions to Hook and Roll and doesn't take full advantage of the flare potential. It seems the only way to keep this working on oily condtions is to keep the surface dull.
Why would I NOT want to modify the Melee Hook to take a little longer into each phase and a 5"+ Pin to Pap?

Chuck: I currently have ten balls in my arsenal. Five are symmetrical. Five are asymmetrical. All are drilled the same. In this way, I know the difference from ball to ball based on the core numbers and the surface, and I use the surface to "tweak" the reactions. BTW, why would you want to keep the Melee Hook working on oily conditions when you don't bowl on oily conditions?

[ChuckR]

Chuck: I currently have ten balls in my arsenal. Five are symmetrical. Five are asymmetrical. All are drilled the same. In this way, I know the difference from ball to ball based on the core numbers and the surface, and I use the surface to "tweak" the reactions. BTW, why would you want to keep the Melee Hook working on oily conditions when you don't bowl on oily conditions?
I have started to bowl in tournaments and wasn't sure what I will get for conditions. I just had the Melee drilled and the layout is 50x4x30. I practiced 6 games at Suncoast and after the 1st 160 I had confidence in the ball and had 5 games in the 200's. It doesn't snap like the Genius but has a very continuous roll.

[vdubtx]

I have started to bowl in tournaments and wasn't sure what I will get for conditions. I just had the Melee drilled and the layout is 50x4x30. I practiced 6 games at Suncoast and after the 1st 160 I had confidence in the ball and had 5 games in the 200's. It doesn't snap like the Genius but has a very continuous roll.

Go to Red Rock, those would be 250's there. :cool: :p

[ChuckR]

Go to Red Rock, those would be 250's there. :cool: :p
I certainly hope you are correct. I bowl at Red Rock on Thursday's 12:00. The team is in 2nd place and I would love to through 4 250's.

[Mike White]

Don't mess with different drillings, it's very old school when static weights were the only way to affect ball reaction other than surface. Knowing your style, I'd use the same layout that you have on the Genius.

After a nice long vacation from here, I come back and see you're still spewing (your current phrase) myths.

Different drillings in the modern ball change the amount of track flare, and the RG of the PAP.

With a 5 pound core, 1-3 ounces) of static weight isn't going to make much difference.

Add to that, when the ball flares, what used to be side weight (imbalance towards the PAP) is moved, potentially 90 degrees from the PAP.


Maybe in Fred Flintstone's days only static weights and surface would affect ball reaction... I don't know, I'm not that old. Maybe you are.

In the 70's and 80's, the biggest thing that effected the ball reaction was the human element.

How you released the ball, and where on the lane you chose to play made a HUGE difference.

If today, you and I both drilled an old school ball exactly the same, with the same surface prep, those balls wouldn't react the same for you and I.

You're spewing myths.

[Mike White]

Chuck: I currently have ten balls in my arsenal. Five are symmetrical. Five are asymmetrical. All are drilled the same. In this way, I know the difference from ball to ball based on the core numbers and the surface, and I use the surface to "tweak" the reactions. BTW, why would you want to keep the Melee Hook working on oily conditions when you don't bowl on oily conditions?

Knowing the Low, High and Intermediate RG of the ball is only a small part of the story.

The ball doesn't rotate around any of those 3 axis while on the lane.

The RG of the PAP is more important than the X, Y, and Z axis RG values.

Now a person with math skills can get a reasonable estimate of the PAP RG before the ball is drilled, but we both know "math skills" is not your strong point.

Even if you can get a reasonable estimate of the PAP RG (pre drill) once the holes are drilled into the ball, the PAP RG will change.

It won't change the same for every one of your 10 balls.

The density of the material that is drilled out of the ball has a direct effect on the resulting PAP RG.

When you drill two different balls, the shape of the core is likely to be different, which means the amount of high density core material drilled out will be different.

Take Radical's core with the "finger scoop", and Storms core in the Crux.
Radical shaped the core so it's possible to drill finger holes so it doesn't remove core material, much like Storm's Crux core has the equivalent shape so drilling the thumb hole reduces the amount of core removed.

Most manufactures don't do that. So you would need information that is not provided to the public, to know that you have post drilling.

If you don't know the shape of the core, and density of the material removed, for each of your 10 balls, you're just guessing about their differences.

So you have to take those balls out and experiment with them on the lanes to see the resulting differences.

Now go back to the advice of "stick with one drilling pattern" for all balls, and you see, it doesn't really make sense, since you still have to go out on the lane to see what you ended up with.

Myths.

P.S. When you get a new ball, you will notice that the distance from the Pin to the CG is different from ball to ball, as is the top weight.
That is achieved by changing the position of the core inside the ball during manufacturing.
Moving the core changes the RG values from those listed on the web site.

Again if you don't know the position of the core, you can't know how much of the core you are removing.

[Doghouse Reilly]

After a nice long vacation from here, I come back and see you're still spewing (your current phrase) myths.


What myth did he spew? The idea of using the same layout on multiple balls?

That's hardly a myth, the use of the same or basically same (or your favorite) layout on multiple ball types is a option used by many and works.

[Mike White]

What myth did he spew? The idea of using the same layout on multiple balls?

That's hardly a myth, the use of the same or basically same (or your favorite) layout on multiple ball types is a option used by many and works.

"and works" is not a good way to show that the idea isn't a myth.

If you only bowl on odd days in even months, and even days in odd months... that works just as well.

Because the lanes are walled up everyday of every month.

Now if you could show that using the same layout in multiple balls works better than trying different layouts does, then you could debunk the myth status.

The problem is, you still have to go out an learn the characteristics of each ball when drilled the same, or when drilled differently.

So drilling all the balls the same doesn't save you any work, or give you any extra knowledge about each ball.

Telling someone to stick to one layout is like telling someone to only bowl on odd days of even months.

It has no basis is reality.

[Doghouse Reilly]

"and works" is not a good way to show that the idea isn't a myth.

If you only bowl on odd days in even months, and even days in odd months... that works just as well.

Because the lanes are walled up everyday of every month.

Now if you could show that using the same layout in multiple balls works better than trying different layouts does, then you could debunk the myth status.

The problem is, you still have to go out an learn the characteristics of each ball when drilled the same, or when drilled differently.

So drilling all the balls the same doesn't save you any work, or give you any extra knowledge about each ball.

Telling someone to stick to one layout is like telling someone to only bowl on odd days of even months.

It has no basis is reality.

Okay lets see if I have that.

Knowing the layout and how it reacts on your other balls beforehand won't give you any idea how another ball might react with that same layout.

Only rolling the ball on the lanes will tell you how they will react.

If that's the case, that doesn't really disprove anything.

Because if using a layout you've had experience with doesn't tell you anything, using a different layout you haven't used before sure won't tell you anything either.

Whatever a different/unknown layout tells you about how a ball will react before you roll it, a known layout will tell you also. And if you've had experience with a certain layout before, you're going to know more about how a ball will react than you would with a different layout you haven't used before.

[bowl1820]

The idea of finding one or two layouts that roll well for you and putting that layout on different balls and allowing the cover, surface texture and core characteristics determine the reaction is one school of thought.

This idea has been around and used by many for years and has been discussed many times and articles wrote about it.

Since most average players bowl on house shots, the idea is a fair option. While it may limit some options in regard to lane play and ball reaction, you won't have too many surprises either.

Using varying layouts on different balls is another option and used by many also. IMO if your a more advanced bowler and bowling on multiple conditions, then this could be a better option. Because you may need more options in ball reaction for lane play.


Just something I've notice being on the all the boards for years.

I've read lot's of post's where players talked about getting & having all these different layouts on balls, "I need this layout for this shot and different one for that shot,one for a tournament" so on.

Then after however long, I started seeing those same players say when they get a new ball and somebody asks what layout are they going to put on it. "I'll just put my usual layout on it (pin over/ pin under whatever D.A. they say)" or when asked what layout they use it's "I only use one or two layouts" or they just say "I found these one or two layouts work best for me and thats all I use.)

They still bowl all the same things leagues, tournaments etc. but they have got rid of all these different layouts and pared down to just one or two layouts.

So maybe there is something to just having a couple of layouts you always use. Ultimately it's up to you to decide what you want to do.

[Mike White]

Okay lets see if I have that.

Knowing the layout and how it reacts on your other balls beforehand won't give you any idea how another ball might react with that same layout.

Only rolling the ball on the lanes will tell you how they will react.

If that's the case, that doesn't really disprove anything.

Because if using a layout you've had experience with doesn't tell you anything, using a different layout you haven't used before sure won't tell you anything either.


Remember, I wasn't the one who made the claim that sticking to one layout was the better choice.



Whatever a different/unknown layout tells you about how a ball will react before you roll it, a known layout will tell you also. And if you've had experience with a certain layout before, you're going to know more about how a ball will react than you would with a different layout you haven't used before.

You're making a claim that you will know more with a known layout. It's not clear if that claim is true.

If you have a ball / layout combination that is "working", then why are you drilling up another ball?

If you are also bowling on a different pattern, then the only reason to drill up another ball is because the balls you currently have aren't working.

So, in that case sticking with a non-working layout doesn't sound like good advice.

[ChuckR]

I mentioned in the beginning that My Mastermind Genius was about 40x4x30. I don't know for certain the UpRoar, which I love. The Melee Hook is 50x4x30. My Driller and his partner settled on this based on my delivery and the strength of the coverstock. Take it a little longer before hook for medium/high oil. Minor modifications make sense. Major modifications can lead to months of learning a new reaction. Then try and remember it when the conditions are such that you want to go to it.