HELP! Can't stop sucking!

[bobforsaken]

I've been AWOL for a while.. basically to disgusted with myself to talk much about bowling. Got some coaching and in many ways I feel like I'm bowling better than ever.. but its not translating on league night. I practice a lot, but only bowl in league once a week. The problem is all of my practice is on chewed up lanes and I usually do pretty well. When I get to League and they lay down the fresh oil I can't seem to find any room. I have pretty slow ball speed and probably an average rev rate at this time. Depending on the conditions in practice I can play anywhere from standing 20 to 30 and playing a breakpoint of 5 to 10. I can usually find a good groove and I do ok.

However, when I play on league night with fresh oil I get trapped with "Flatten out my angles and the ball grabs early and cuts through the nose if i'm a touch slow or get a bit more hand... " "Steepen my angle through the front and the ball never reads the mid lane.. it just squirts to the end of the pattern or to the gutter and jumps left" I'm Over/Under all night. I'm just clueless as to how I should be adjusting to this.

The best success I've been able to have is putting 500 grit surface on my Marvel S.. Playing around 3rd arrow for the target out to about 8 or 9... The only problem is once that goes away it puts me in a bad spot where I'm going through the face the rest of the night with every other ball I try.

The balls I'm working with are mostly Pin up small VAL angle drillings.. Low RG Balls. I just added a new Hy-Road with a 45 x 4.5 x 65ish drilling and that was jumping off the back of the pattern too.. just never really reading the mid lane.

[AlexNC]

I have to imagine you mean 500 and then polish?

[fokai73]

the person in my league who would put 500 grit on a strong ball for THS, he's a spinner. Any fresh oil, he's toast. On dry lanes, he shines.....

[bobforsaken]

I have to imagine you mean 500 and then polish?

Nope.. 500 Abralon on a Marvel S is the only way I can get it to read the midlane it seems.

[bobforsaken]

the person in my league who would put 500 grit on a strong ball for THS, he's a spinner. Any fresh oil, he's toast. On dry lanes, he shines.....

I'm definitely not a spinner.. I track extremely high... As a matter of fact I've been putting my ring finger in to the first knuckle and my middle finger in less (down to the middle of the pad) in order to increase my tilt so I don't roll over the thumb and finger holes before it flares away. I'm not having a problem getting the ball to hook.. I'm having a problem controlling where it hooks. If my angles are too direct it grabs early.. If I increase my angle and plan in more oil it pushes almost into the gutter before jumping uncontrollably back.

[JasonNJ]

I track very high too and I have the same issue when the lanes start to break down. I find just staying behind the ball and not really turning my wrist on my release really helps me control the amount of hook.

[fokai73]

Changing tilt is done with hand and/or wrist position. Not with finger depth in the hole, doing that just adds to inconsistency in the release.

[Amyers]

I'm definitely not a spinner.. I track extremely high... As a matter of fact I've been putting my ring finger in to the first knuckle and my middle finger in less (down to the middle of the pad) in order to increase my tilt so I don't roll over the thumb and finger holes before it flares away. I'm not having a problem getting the ball to hook.. I'm having a problem controlling where it hooks. If my angles are too direct it grabs early.. If I increase my angle and plan in more oil it pushes almost into the gutter before jumping uncontrollably back.

first off I agree with Fokai. Not even narrating your fingers is not the way to change your tilt. If your clipping the holes you've got the wrong drilling for your release. It sounds like you maybe a full roller and there are drilling so for that style.

Second if you're pro shop sold you a hy road when you wanted something to read the mid lane you probably need to find a new pro shop. The hy road is very clean through the mids by nature

[bobforsaken]

first off I agree with Fokai. Not even narrating your fingers is not the way to change your tilt. If your clipping the holes you've got the wrong drilling for your release. It sounds like you maybe a full roller and there are drilling so for that style.

Second if you're pro shop sold you a hy road when you wanted something to read the mid lane you probably need to find a new pro shop. The hy road is very clean through the mids by nature


I was adding the hy-road for something smoother with a larger Val Angle... More specifically to try out a different drilling with a good benchmark ball. Most of my other balls are low RG with very small VAL angles. They give me plenty of Midlane, so the Hy-Road was to give me something different with a slower and more gradual hook that would allow me to play with a more direct angle. So for example, I was practicing yesterday and the Hyroad gave me that nice arcing reaction that I was looking for to compliment my optimus which was more skid/snap.... but those were used up lanes... on a fresh league shot the optimus would nearly push to the gutter if I gave it enough angle through the front to keep it on the right of the head pin... and that nice arc the hyroad gives me on chewed up lanes becomes a hockey stick. Unfortunately, the only time I get to practice on fresh oil is once a week in league. The rest of the time I practice I'm seeing things that are completely different and because of that I'm having a tough time adjusting. For example, the new Hy-road with 3000 surface gave me that nice sweeping hook I wanted for when I'm getting an over/under condition.. On the league shot it was even worse of a skid/snap reaction than I had with my polished Marvel Pearl or Optimus. Maybe that's expected.. but that is NOT what I see when I practice 20 million times during the week.

As for the finger position.. I don't Track BETWEEN the thumb and finger holes.. but I do track very close to them and sometimes when I'm late with my release I'll track over the thumb and finger. It may not be the correct way to correct tilt, but I can say changing my finger position moves the ball track about 1/4 inch off of my finger hole. Maybe in shifting my fingers I'm shifting my hand position to re-balance.. But really that isn't part what is concerning me with my current difficulties..

[bobforsaken]

For those keeping score... I've asked about how to better adjust to my over/under issue in League and I've gotten:

1) Stay behind the ball to control the hook. (thanks.. I'll try that)
2) I must be mistaken about 500 Grit.. must be 500 grit with Polish
3) If I'm using 500 Grit, I must be a spinner
4) I must be a full Roller if I'm tracking over the fingers so I should look at New Equipment/Drillings
5) I should find a new Pro-shop if they sold me a Hy-Road
6) I'm trying to adjust my axis Tilt Wrong

Just waiting for the "Save your money on practice and find a certified coach" and then we can officially close this thread..

[scottymoney]

Such is life when the people have no reference seeing you bowl...... just sayin

It is tough to help anyone going by words. It really is a sport of being able to see what is happening. Even targeting is a personal preference and tough to tell people how to adjust.

[bobforsaken]

Such is life when the people have no reference seeing you bowl...... just sayin

It is tough to help anyone going by words. It really is a sport of being able to see what is happening. Even targeting is a personal preference and tough to tell people how to adjust.

I get that.. I was hoping there would be some tips on handling over under.. even generic tips like "add surface to a lower flare ball and play more direct".. (not saying that is a good tip or not.. which is why I asked the question to begin with)

I know I"m not going to get perfect advice just over the internet though a text description.. but it seems people are more concerned with criticizing anything they can rather than actually trying to answer the question. Only one person tried to answer the question and everyone else just jumped to some conclusion in order to criticize something.

[scottymoney]

I will say over/under is one of the most difficult things to adjust to. What works best for me is closing my angle to the pocket, keep the ball in the oil as long as you can. I find this many nights during league when I have to move in while everyone else sits on the 10 board. You said you play 15, out to about 8 or 9. Try moving in a bit to 17 or 18 and playing out to 11 or 12. this should still get you to some dry at the end of the pattern but keep you in the oil a bit longer.

I do agree that many people tend to rip apart every little comment. Usually while spelling something wrong and making it sound ridiculous along the way.

[fokai73]

1. I never said you're a spinner.

2. you don't need a video to tell someone, who is not using the gripping holes properly - which in contrast is not for gripping but to allow the hand to stay on to the ball with little or no pressure to help produce consistent release, that there are other ways to achieve more tilt.

3. the internet isn't perfect. you get what you get when you post on social media.

[fokai73]

Such is life when the people have no reference seeing you bowl...... just sayin

It is tough to help anyone going by words. It really is a sport of being able to see what is happening. Even targeting is a personal preference and tough to tell people how to adjust.

must be tough telling the OP about adjusting to carry down...

BTW, since you've also talked about spelling in your other post.. "it really" is actually "it's really a sport........"

just say....:D

[Amyers]

For those keeping score... I've asked about how to better adjust to my over/under issue in League and I've gotten:

1) Stay behind the ball to control the hook. (thanks.. I'll try that)
2) I must be mistaken about 500 Grit.. must be 500 grit with Polish
3) If I'm using 500 Grit, I must be a spinner
4) I must be a full Roller if I'm tracking over the fingers so I should look at New Equipment/Drillings
5) I should find a new Pro-shop if they sold me a Hy-Road
6) I'm trying to adjust my axis Tilt Wrong

Just waiting for the "Save your money on practice and find a certified coach" and then we can officially close this thread..

Sorry if you feel that my post was being critical and maybe I didn't explain it as well as I should. Your problem with "over/under" during league play may be just that but it sounds a lot like a problem I'm currently having myself which is being inconsistent with the release and I felt the finger issue could be leading to that. It could also be cupping your release inconsistently which is my issue at the moment.

My best advice for dealing with over under is to increase surface and play straighter to the pocket but if your seeing that with a ball at 500 grit surface I'm not sure that's really the problem which is why I supplied the above mentioned advice.

My comment about the Hyroad was simply that if you were looking for more midlane read expecting to get that from a ball with a much higher RG and less surface was not a choice the was likely to be effective which your pro shop should have informed you of if that's what you told them you wanted. The hyroad is a great ball just not something that is known for reading the midlane early.

You were the one who included the tidbits that are unusual. Using a 500 grit sanded early reading ball is not the norm so yes your going to see comments about that, you mentioned clipping the holes unless you use an unconventional grip and just release the ball just right. That shouldn't really be happening so you comments on that. As Scotty said it's difficult to diagnose a problem without seeing it in person and even if three people see it you'll probably get three different responses on the cause and the solution especially on something that people have a lot of different opinions on like over/under reactions.

[scottymoney]

must be tough telling the OP about adjusting to carry down...

BTW, since you've also talked about spelling in your other post.. "it really" is actually "it's really a sport........"

just say....:D

If that is your nit pick of my post then I feel better about myself. As far as carry down I am sure you pulled that from another post. I don't see carry down being his problem at all.

[fokai73]

If that is your nit pick of my post then I feel better about myself. As far as carry down I am sure you pulled that from another post. I don't see carry down being his problem at all.

that was my fault. it was O/U you gave him advice on and not CD.... but still...

you should feel better about yourself... with a handle with "money" in it, you must be a great bowler and/or make over $90K with an associate degree :D... or like some with just a G.E.D and make $200k a year lol damn that would be nice

[scottymoney]

Yeah I wish I made that but "money" has been a nickname of mine for years. And it actually has been used in bowling for me as I am anchor for my team and need to strike out for the match on occasion. When I do it I hear "that was so Money!"

But I do have a Bachelor's degree..... my problem is my honesty usually gets me in trouble at work and I don't like to suck up to managment. Being in IT support my boss usually yells at me saying "I know you are right but you can't tell the user that!"

[fokai73]

I got friends in IT.... You got some patience dealing with those ppl.. That tough..

Anyway, Amyers said it right......just trying to help

[bobforsaken]

Let me start off by saying I apologize for my frustrated tone, and I really do appreciate those who try to help a total stranger. Thank you for the suggestion ScottyMoney...

AMeyers, thank you for the expanded explanation. Regarding the Hy-road and Marvel-S.. The Marvel-S at 500 gives me a good reaction as I said in the original post.
"The best success I've been able to have is putting 500 grit surface on my Marvel S.. Playing around 3rd arrow for the target out to about 8 or 9... The only problem is once that goes away it puts me in a bad spot where I'm going through the face the rest of the night with every other ball I try. "


As for the Hy-Road, the purpose was never to produce more midlane on these types of conditions. It was to produce a more gradual hook (on less soaked conditions), via drilling, then I have with my other balls that are all low RG balls with small VAL angles. That is 100% my fault for not being clear on its purpose. My only reason for mentioning it was in an attempt to give you a very basic rundown of the kinds of balls I have. Ie.. Low RG with short Val angles and a higher RG Ball (hy-road) with a larger VAL angle drilling.

[Amyers]

Let me start off by saying I apologize for my frustrated tone, and I really do appreciate those who try to help a total stranger. Thank you for the suggestion ScottyMoney...

AMeyers, thank you for the expanded explanation. Regarding the Hy-road and Marvel-S.. The Marvel-S at 500 gives me a good reaction as I said in the original post.
"The best success I've been able to have is putting 500 grit surface on my Marvel S.. Playing around 3rd arrow for the target out to about 8 or 9... The only problem is once that goes away it puts me in a bad spot where I'm going through the face the rest of the night with every other ball I try. "


As for the Hy-Road, the purpose was never to produce more midlane on these types of conditions. It was to produce a more gradual hook (on less soaked conditions), via drilling, then I have with my other balls that are all low RG balls with small VAL angles. That is 100% my fault for not being clear on its purpose. My only reason for mentioning it was in an attempt to give you a very basic rundown of the kinds of balls I have. Ie.. Low RG with short Val angles and a higher RG Ball (hy-road) with a larger VAL angle drilling.

No problem at all Bob and believe me I understand how frustrating it can be to have a problem and not be able to find a solution. I think the thing that make me mention it is the fact that the Marvel-s at 500 is working for you. The marvel-s is a somewhat low Rg ball (2.48), with a strong cover (NRG Solid), that you've added a lot of surface too (factory 3000-you 500), combined with a low val angle drilling which decreases th rg even more and increases the asymmetry and the differential. All combined unless your severly speed dominate the ball should be hooking at your feet and burning up at the arrows.

As far as the Hyroad I think I understand what you were thinking now but as you mentioned the balls not giving you what you expected on the fresh conditions. You did increase the Val angle with the drilling with it but you selected a ball with a much higher rg than the others. As you increase the rg the ball goes longer and may cover less boards but the backend reaction gets larger. Going with a larger Val angle actually probably enhanced that even more as that increased the Rg farther and decreased the differential. Decreasing the differential in some ways people think it causes the ball to hook less I don't think that's really the case for most average bowlers but what it does do is lengthen the hook phase so it may not turn quite as sharply but it actually causes the ball to hook longer increasing the backend reaction especially in that .4 to .45 area at least that's how it works for me.I do believe you purchased something that will give you a different look but if you wanted it to be more gradual of a hook this probably wasn't the ball for you.

It might be interesting if you can find a different alley to bowl in on fresh conditions (maybe sub for someone on a league) or if they have a night they put a different pattern down does the problem still happen? if it does that's a good sign its a problem with you and not with an over/under reaction. If it doesn't happen then you can be more certin it's a ball/pattern problem.

I don't know if any of this helps but maybe at least gives you something else to think about and explains a little of what your seeing. Something else that might help if it's a ball/pattern matchup problem you might consider going to something more along the lines of the new Storm Match or if you open to different brands a Brunswick Soul to start with hopefully would let you start at least a little farther right and then move to the marvel-s latter in the match when you have to make that move inside. I know for myself on those nights I have to start at the 3rd arrow I feel like I don't have anywhere to go.

[bobforsaken]

It might be interesting if you can find a different alley to bowl in on fresh conditions (maybe sub for someone on a league) or if they have a night they put a different pattern down does the problem still happen? if it does that's a good sign its a problem with you and not with an over/under reaction. If it doesn't happen then you can be more certin it's a ball/pattern problem.



I don't tend to have these issues anywhere else. Other places hook more, but it allows me to move deeper and still get a midlane read. This has been a season long struggle at this house since they changed the oil machine/pattern... This house has always had a reputation for being a 10 pin house without a lot of friction (very hard lane surface). Even still, I can play around 2nd arrow on the fresh conditions and it hooks plenty. I had been using Polished IQ Tour Fusion/ Optimus/ Marvel Pearl and just couldn't keep them off the head pin. (which was really why I had gotten the Hyroad) The marvel S at 3000 was too much for playing in this area, but if I moved deeper, it pushed too far toward the gutter and never made it back (got squirty). That is why I changed it to 500 Grit (which is the first time I had even attempted a grit that low) and it was great on the Fresh around 3rd arrow. The other night when I really struggled with O/U, I didn't have anything else to move to. I"m going to try the Fusion at 2000 as a step down from the Marvel S and maybe find a nice place to start between 2nd and 3rd arrow so I have someplace to go after the first game. (maybe moving to the Marvel-S). Or start with the Hy-Road (3000) at around 2nd arrow in hopes it will stay to the right of the headpin better than my Optimus/Marvel Pearl... or at least leave me with less splits when I get a touch slow with my speed.

[Amyers]

I don't tend to have these issues anywhere else. Other places hook more, but it allows me to move deeper and still get a midlane read. This has been a season long struggle at this house since they changed the oil machine/pattern... This house has always had a reputation for being a 10 pin house without a lot of friction (very hard lane surface). Even still, I can play around 2nd arrow on the fresh conditions and it hooks plenty. I had been using Polished IQ Tour Fusion/ Optimus/ Marvel Pearl and just couldn't keep them off the head pin. (which was really why I had gotten the Hyroad) The marvel S at 3000 was too much for playing in this area, but if I moved deeper, it pushed too far toward the gutter and never made it back (got squirty). That is why I changed it to 500 Grit (which is the first time I had even attempted a grit that low) and it was great on the Fresh around 3rd arrow. The other night when I really struggled with O/U, I didn't have anything else to move to. I"m going to try the Fusion at 2000 as a step down from the Marvel S and maybe find a nice place to start between 2nd and 3rd arrow so I have someplace to go after the first game. (maybe moving to the Marvel-S). Or start with the Hy-Road (3000) at around 2nd arrow in hopes it will stay to the right of the headpin better than my Optimus/Marvel Pearl... or at least leave me with less splits when I get a touch slow with my speed.

Makes more sense now to me. Glad to hear that it's primarily at this alley. Adjusting the surface on the fusion sounds like a good idea. If you can I would suggest maybe trying to get to 1k or 2k on the surface on the Marvel-S throwing that down the 3rd arrow has got to be blowing the pattern up for your teammates if any of them play inside at all. Let us know how it works for you.

[bobforsaken]

Makes more sense now to me. Glad to hear that it's primarily at this alley. Adjusting the surface on the fusion sounds like a good idea. If you can I would suggest maybe trying to get to 1k or 2k on the surface on the Marvel-S throwing that down the 3rd arrow has got to be blowing the pattern up for your teammates if any of them play inside at all. Let us know how it works for you.

Yeah.. Probably a good idea about the Surface. We had a high Rev Sub that was to the left of me and scored sub 150 the last two games (as did I)... He's a 190ish bowler as WAS I before this season.. I'm at 180 after last week's horrible series..

Thanks again

[Aslan]

but its not translating on league night. I practice a lot, but only bowl in league once a week. The problem is all of my practice is on chewed up lanes and I usually do pretty well. When I get to League and they lay down the fresh oil I can't seem to find any room. I have pretty slow ball speed and probably an average rev rate at this time. Depending on the conditions in practice I can play anywhere from standing 20 to 30 and playing a breakpoint of 5 to 10. I can usually find a good groove and I do ok.

Yup. Been there.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-59OF5qVB8eI/U8HCVVOLPII/AAAAAAAATE8/-mKZ7vRO4Zk/s1600/No+Country+for+Old+Men+chicken+farmer.png

I bowl in a $20 tournament most Saturdays...solely because I want to practice on league conditions.

One thing you might want to consider is maybe getting the balls back to OOB the surface and try playing the track. One thing that is a very hard concept to grasp...for all levels of bowler...is that sometimes a ball doesn't come back because your angle is wrong (you're too deep for your speed/rev rate)...and sometimes it doesn't come back because it just loses energy.

A 500 abralon, non-polished surface...the ball might be just losing too much energy as it grabs too early. It'll look like its not enough ball...not enough hand...not enough surface....when in fact it could be the opposite. And the difference...very difficult to see...even for pros.

My last arsenal I kept missing right....and just kept sanding those balls....hoping if I got them rough enough...they'd find the pocket. But, they never did. Come to find out...the reason my Slingshot was working so well and my other balls weren't....was because I didn't sand the Slingshot...so despite it being a very weak ball...it actually had some energy by the time it went into the hook phase.

Just a suggestion...a video would probably be best to get something more useful.

[bobforsaken]

A 500 abralon, non-polished surface...the ball might be just losing too much energy as it grabs too early. It'll look like its not enough ball...not enough hand...not enough surface....when in fact it could be the opposite. And the difference...very difficult to see...even for pros.
.


It is very hard to see when a ball is burning up.. it does look like its just not hooking. But not hooking enough isn't the issue, at least not until I get very steep with my angles. I did have most of my equipment at OOB until recently. The Marvel-S at 500 was done because I was stuck in a position where all my balls would go brooklyn in the track area (unless I played a steep angle in the track which pushed to the gutter).. And if I moved into the oil significantly I hit this oil slick that the balls would get squirty and uncontrollable. I went right from 3000 to 500 on the marvel-S and that allowed me to settle in around 3rd arrow for a target and do pretty well. Unfortunately, I tore up the middle of the pattern and paid for it later in squad. I'm going to try 1000 on my Marvel-s, 2000 on my fusion, and 3000 on my hy road and hopefully one of those balls will allow me to play further right (than 3rd arrow) without going through the face all night. I'd love to be able to play the track area without feeling I have to throw the ball faster to keep it off the nose... But my least aggressive ball is far too weak of a cover stock for the fresh anyway. (tropical breeze with weak drilling) and the rest seem to be too much ball. (Optimus, Fusion, Marvel Pearl, Marvel S) Hy-Road with the right surface may still be an option.. but I haven't been able to figure out what that surface is because I have to wait a week before tests and only get about 3 practice balls before league starts... and once the lights go on I'm usually "so close" that I don't try any bold changes so I learn very little about how these surfaces may play in different areas.

[Amyers]

It is very hard to see when a ball is burning up.. it does look like its just not hooking. But not hooking enough isn't the issue, at least not until I get very steep with my angles. I did have most of my equipment at OOB until recently. The Marvel-S at 500 was done because I was stuck in a position where all my balls would go brooklyn in the track area (unless I played a steep angle in the track which pushed to the gutter).. And if I moved into the oil significantly I hit this oil slick that the balls would get squirty and uncontrollable. I went right from 3000 to 500 on the marvel-S and that allowed me to settle in around 3rd arrow for a target and do pretty well. Unfortunately, I tore up the middle of the pattern and paid for it later in squad. I'm going to try 1000 on my Marvel-s, 2000 on my fusion, and 3000 on my hy road and hopefully one of those balls will allow me to play further right without going through the face all night. I'd love to be able to play the track area without feeling I have to throw the ball faster to keep it off the nose... But my least aggressive ball is far too weak of a cover stock for the fresh anyway. (tropical breeze with weak drilling) and the rest seem to be too much ball. (Optimus, Fusion, Marvel Pearl, Marvel S) Hy-Road with the right surface may still be an option.. but I haven't been able to figure out what that surface is because I have to wait a week before tests and only get about 3 practice balls before league starts... and once the lights go on I'm usually "so close" that I don't try any bold changes so I learn very little about how these surfaces may play in different areas.

I can understand that it's hard to judge when you can't replicate the conditions during practice. I cant guess how many times I think I've figured something out and then try to replicate on the freshly oiled lanes and it just doesn't work. Let us know how your surface changes work there. I hope it leads to some success for you.

[Mike White]

Yup. Been there.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-59OF5qVB8eI/U8HCVVOLPII/AAAAAAAATE8/-mKZ7vRO4Zk/s1600/No+Country+for+Old+Men+chicken+farmer.png

I bowl in a $20 tournament most Saturdays...solely because I want to practice on league conditions.

One thing you might want to consider is maybe getting the balls back to OOB the surface and try playing the track. One thing that is a very hard concept to grasp...for all levels of bowler...is that sometimes a ball doesn't come back because your angle is wrong (you're too deep for your speed/rev rate)...and sometimes it doesn't come back because it just loses energy.

A 500 abralon, non-polished surface...the ball might be just losing too much energy as it grabs too early. It'll look like its not enough ball...not enough hand...not enough surface....when in fact it could be the opposite. And the difference...very difficult to see...even for pros.

My last arsenal I kept missing right....and just kept sanding those balls....hoping if I got them rough enough...they'd find the pocket. But, they never did. Come to find out...the reason my Slingshot was working so well and my other balls weren't....was because I didn't sand the Slingshot...so despite it being a very weak ball...it actually had some energy by the time it went into the hook phase.

Just a suggestion...a video would probably be best to get something more useful.

If you have a multi-color ball, or high contrast color inserts, the difference between a ball rolling too early vs a ball never rolling is quite easy to see.

[Aslan]

If you have a multi-color ball, or high contrast color inserts, the difference between a ball rolling too early vs a ball never rolling is quite easy to see.

If it's a big difference, yes. If it's still hitting the pocket...and leaving 5-7s, flat 7s, or flat 10s...it's not as noticeable...especially to those of us that are relatively new.

If you analyze the last two shots of this video (at about 34 minutes into the 36 minute video)...it seems like the first (more polished) ball skidded a bit too long...but still came back to the pocket...just probably needed to hook a tiny bit sooner. If I look at the last shot (the more sanded version)...it seems like (in slow motion), you CAN see that it hooked sooner and looks like it kinda rolled out before hitting (barely) the pocket.


https://youtu.be/GRnLBy9UCp8?list=UUN0ng9f5ROzBowkYgXeuLfA

I may be wrong...like I said...it's hard to tell when not driving through the pocket with carry...whether the ball is going to long versus rolling out. It's a little easier to see in slow motion...but still.

And yes, I know it's difficult to use this example given my lower rev, more speed dominant release...and this video will seem familiar to MWhite (he stars in it and I think won a best supporting actor award for it...can't remember)...but it seems like if you just focus on the last two slow motion shots (don't watch the whole thing...other than me being in better shape...it's not too entertaining)...I think you see a ball that skids too far....barely makes it back to the pocket...then in shot #2...you see a ball hooking 3-5ft sooner....and already in the roll phase well before it hits the pocket.

[Mike White]

If it's a big difference, yes. If it's still hitting the pocket...and leaving 5-7s, flat 7s, or flat 10s...it's not as noticeable...especially to those of us that are relatively new.


You can't tell by examine just the way the pins fall.

You need to watch how the ball travels down the lane.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs3MTTxqqKA

Watch the rotation of the ball.

The low rev player loses axis rotation early, and the ball rolls end over end towards the pins.

As the player increases rev rate, the loss of axis rotation slower allowing the ball to generate more right to left momentum.

Finally look at the 20+ MPH, 625 rev example.

Here the ball maintains axis rotation past the pins, and while the Radical people seem to be impressed with the messengers, watch how bad the ball deflects.

The ball has plenty of right to left momentum (as shown by the amount of energy transferred into the head pin), it still has much more linear momentum down the lane. The combination of light pocket, and a weak mix of momentums causes the ball to deflect significantly.

The ball exits the pin deck on top of, or to the right of the 9 pin spot.

[NewToBowling]

Mike, you sound like a wealth of knowledge. Would love to have you watch me bowl and show me all these little details that you spot.

[Aslan]

Mike-

You did a great job explaining that...but it didn't really answer the question or relate to what I was saying to the OP about surface.

Yes, you are right...you can tell a LOT, by where the ball exits the pin deck. Suzie Minshew wrote a good article on this subject on BTM. BUT...that last shot with the crazy high rev rate and speed...yes, it obviously hit light and didn't drive through the pins. The first shot at the lower speed and rev rate exited the pin deck ideally between the 8 and 9.

I would guess, that in the last example...that ball obviously didn't "roll out"...as you said, it was still in the hook phase when it hit the pocket. That might be an example of a ball that is skidding a bit too far before transitioning or slowing down. But what we didn't see (because it's a ball manufacturer's video) is a bowler where the same ball has too much surface applied and rolls out. The first person you could kinda see what it looks like...but those shots all still struck.

The warning/advice I was giving the OP...is just that if you're sanding your balls down...especially < 1000 abralon...you need a ton of oil and a long pattern...or that ball is going to hook much sooner than you want. The tricky thing to see is....you'd expect it to hook sooner and that sooner = more...thus it would hit Brooklyn. But what I noticed when doing a lot of surfacing in my last arsenal is that these sanded balls would hit light...giving you the impression that you need MORE sanding...MORE surface...or MORE ball...when the opposite is true.

So, hypothetical example, if you throw a Polished Storm Rocket...and you keep hitting light or missing a little right...you figure (and are probably right)...that you need a stronger ball or more surface. So you go in your bag and grab a Brunswick Nirvanna that you've sanded down to 500 abralon and you throw it up the same line. It also misses right and hits light...same leaves as the Rocket. But how can that be? The ball strength alone should give it more downlane movement...but it doesn't.

That's because the Rocket...isn't hooking SOON enough....and the Nirvanna is SO strong and has SO much surface...that it's rolling out far too early. If you just go by what is left standing...you'd come to the conclusion your speed is too high and rev rate too low...because you can't get a ball to turn the corner. Maybe you slow your shot down...try to increase your axis tilt and rotation, and maybe move further outside to get more in the dry.

Well, that may allow the Rocket to start striking...but the Nirvanna is going to hit even lighter...because it's losing energy even sooner the more right you move.

I just had this problem with my Rotogrip Asylum. It had the OOB hybrid cover...and an RG of 2.50. I could NOT get this ball to work. I throw up the outside or track...it hits light...like a wet noodle. I move inside...it can't get back to the pocket...still hits light. Finally I had a pro watch me throw it...and they saw what I couldn't see...that the Asylum WAS hooking...but way, way too soon. On a THS, there just wasn't enough oil to keep it from hooking too soon. And when I moved inside...the ball just wasn't strong enough at my higher speed and lower rev rate to make a strong move to the pocket.

That is what I fear is happeing with bobfs. He's put SO much surface on his arsenal...that they are not going to make it to the pocket with energy at his speed and rev rate. And that's why I argue with Amyers quite a bit about surface changes. It's not that Amyers is wrong...surface IS the most important factor in a ball's movement. BUT...due to that importance...you can really mess up a ball by trying to surface it to get it to do...what (at your given speed and rev rate) the ball simply is not designed to do.

I keep polishing my Dark Encounter because it wants to hook too soon with a 2.50 RG...and now that my speed is 14.9-16.9...I can't get it to retain it's energy. So I polish it...try to give it a little more length. The Lethal Revolver has a much higher RG (2.574)...but it is a solid...it's a Brunswick...and it wants to start hooking too early (at this speed) for a THS. When I threw it at 17.9-21.0...it was the best ball I've ever thrown...at that speed...with that RG...the Brunswick solid cover started hooking at just the right spot. These are the kind've things that relatively new bowlers (myself included) struggle with as we try to learn more and more about ball specs. Like others have said in other posts...a lot of these specs work together...a lot of them work against one another...and it becomes almost an "equation of formula" to get a given ball with it's entirety of specs...to match a given speed/rev rate...on a THS.

One thing I struggle with regarding the above issues...is how to throw a heavily surfaced ball using an inside line on a THS. It seems that there's really very little room for error...because too much hand and too slow a speed...you hit weak. Not enough hand and a bit too much mustard on the shot...you miss right. I think, and maybe I'm wrong...we're all just guessing to try and assist bobfs...that he may be having a similar dilemma. I think surface hurts new bowlers more than it helps...in my opinion...because it really kills the ball's ability to retain energy on a THS. I wasted 1.5 seasons to come to that realization.

[bobforsaken]

That is what I fear is happeing with bobfs. He's put SO much surface on his arsenal...that they are not going to make it to the pocket with energy at his speed and rev rate. And that's why I argue with Amyers quite a bit about surface changes. It's not that Amyers is wrong...surface IS the most important factor in a ball's movement. BUT...due to that importance...you can really mess up a ball by trying to surface it to get it to do...what (at your given speed and rev rate) the ball simply is not designed to do.



One thing I struggle with regarding the above issues...is how to throw a heavily surfaced ball using an inside line on a THS. It seems that there's really very little room for error...because too much hand and too slow a speed...you hit weak. Not enough hand and a bit too much mustard on the shot...you miss right. I think, and maybe I'm wrong...we're all just guessing to try and assist bobfs...that he may be having a similar dilemma. I think surface hurts new bowlers more than it helps...in my opinion...because it really kills the ball's ability to retain energy on a THS. I wasted 1.5 seasons to come to that realization.

Most of my arsenal has been polished and with this particular house shot, with the amount of oil in the middle I was having success with the 500 Grit Marvel S because it was reading the midlane bleeding off some energy on the Dry. My Low RG Polished stuff and My 3000 Grit hyroad was pushing almost all the way to the gutter as I moved inside, never reading the midlane, and then come screaming off the dry and cut through the nose.... So again, that 500 grit was the exception because it was working.. but chewed up the pattern so fast I ran out of room.

Unfortunately the pattern was not behaving in this squirty way during my league night so I couldn't test some fixes (and I didn't really bowl well again.. :( ) .. but they happened to have a tournament where they put down Kegel Easy street today (Sunday). Even though it wasn't squirty, I was flying off the back ends and having a tough time at first staying to the right of the head pin. I started playing around with index finger position, and got a chance to practice staying up the back of the ball. I had Polish on my Hy-Road and was playing fairly deep.. (standing on 30 throwing to about 16) but I kept my hand up the back as much as possible (index finger was closed almost all the way to my middle finger) and I bowled a 267.

It felt like an extreme amount of AOR reduction, especially for playing deep like I was.. but it was a very nice controllable reaction... Many times I feel like I have to flirt with the gutter to keep the ball on the right of the headpin... I was able to play a breakpoint of about 8 and had some miss room left and right. I'm hoping this practice with reducing my AOR will pay dividends next league night.

As a side note.. My first 3 games of practice today I decided to stand at a particular spot.. target a specific board and use speed and finger adjustments only. First game I stood on 25 (to 13).. Next game was 30(to 16).. next game was 20 (to 9). I usually stay away from speed and release adjustments because "I'm not good at them" but it was really cool to experiment and see how I could make a particular line work reasonably well instead of always switching balls and moving my feet left or right. Its not a great way to shoot honor scores but I was surprised how much better I got at a particular adjustment after sticking with it the whole game.

[Mike White]

Mike-

You did a great job explaining that...but it didn't really answer the question or relate to what I was saying to the OP about surface.

Yes, you are right...you can tell a LOT, by where the ball exits the pin deck. Suzie Minshew wrote a good article on this subject on BTM. BUT...that last shot with the crazy high rev rate and speed...yes, it obviously hit light and didn't drive through the pins. The first shot at the lower speed and rev rate exited the pin deck ideally between the 8 and 9.

I would guess, that in the last example...that ball obviously didn't "roll out"...as you said, it was still in the hook phase when it hit the pocket. That might be an example of a ball that is skidding a bit too far before transitioning or slowing down. But what we didn't see (because it's a ball manufacturer's video) is a bowler where the same ball has too much surface applied and rolls out. The first person you could kinda see what it looks like...but those shots all still struck.


There is so much in that video that shows the "myths" you've been taught are wrong.

Yes, the first sim bowler did have the ball roll out, and according to the myth, that should cause some kine of back row pin left.

But clearly it didn't happen. The reason it strikes is where on the head pin the ball contacts.

If the path of the ball goes thru the center of the pin, there is no deflection.

As the path is offset from the center of the ball (hitting lighter), the deflection increases up to a point, then decreases back to zero deflection just as the ball completely misses the pin.

Too much deflection and too little deflection are both bad.

As the ball increases momentum (in a right to left direction) the deflection is decreased.

The first sim bowler almost left a weak 10 pin on the last shot shown, and if you compare it to previous shots, you will see the ball hit much lighter on the head pin.

By watching the color pattern on the ball (not where it exited the pin deck) you can tell if the ball skidded into the pins still having axis rotation (needing more surface) or rolled early, end over end (needing less surface)

This so called energy you think your ball is losing is fiction.

The reality is, you never put into the ball enough "energy" in the form of revs for the ball achieve right to left momentum.

The further you move inside and throw out, the more left to right momentum the ball starts out with, which in turn required more revs to overcome.

Your best chance is by roughing up the ball, throwing it fast, and tugging the ball up against the wall of oil.

The ball speed along with a bit of right to left from the arm swing gives you about the best right to left momentum you can expect to achieve.

The rough surface will give the ball a chance to roll before hitting the pins, and finally the wall of oil will help you keep from crossing over the head pin.

If you don't want to be limited by those options, you're going to have to work on improving the release to create back end motion..

[billf]

Slow speed and medium rev rate with small VAL angles. Why? Increase the VAL angle will allow the ball to transition slower allowing it to not over react to wet-dry conditions.
Another option albeit one that goes against conventional wisdom, is to move feet and target way right and let the natural outside friction of a THS burn off the excess axis rotation. Playing from 6 to a breakpoint around 2 with maybe your Crux would give you a completely different look.

I have a question about your ball track. Were your balls drilled off your PAP?

[bobforsaken]

Slow speed and medium rev rate with small VAL angles. Why? Increase the VAL angle will allow the ball to transition slower allowing it to not over react to wet-dry conditions.
Another option albeit one that goes against conventional wisdom, is to move feet and target way right and let the natural outside friction of a THS burn off the excess axis rotation. Playing from 6 to a breakpoint around 2 with maybe your Crux would give you a completely different look.

I have a question about your ball track. Were your balls drilled off your PAP?

I've been bowling for less than 2 years... When I started I had a very low rev rate and still a slow speed. I used to have a larger amount of axis tilt as well. I recently started dropping my shoulder and dramatically changed my tilt closer to 0 degrees.. My Pap is about 6.25 over and 1 up. (Used to be 5.75 over and 1 up)... so you can imagine I'm tracking right along the fingers and thumb hole. When my new balls were drilled about 2 years ago they were low RG, aggressive coverstocks (R2S Hybrid, R2X Pearl on the IQ Fusion and Optimus), and drilled with medium Drilling angles and small Vals to help me face up to the pocket. Other balls I've added via Ebay and took whatever drilling they had.. just changing the thumb hole for fit. These are my Marvel Pearl and Marvel S... They just happen to be Small to Medium Val Angles.

I wanted to try something with a larger VAL angle and since I didn't really have anything High RG (except for a Tropical Breeze I added a year ago) I went with a Hy-Road.

So that is the "Why".

[bobforsaken]

A bit of an update. I haven't run into that extreme wet/dry condition... maybe weather related since the change of the seasons..
At any rate the past two weeks I've concentrated on getting more ball speed. I've moved back on the approach which really forces me to drive into my slide just to get to the foul line. This smoothed out the jumpy back ends for me considerably and although I still threw the splits when I got a little slow, I was striking a lot more and didn't have to push all the way to the gutter to keep the ball off the nose.

Last night, I had my best series of the the year. May or may not be coincidence but I dusted off my old Ebonite Cyclone and it saved my first game. (I had 3 opens in a row due to splits before switching and taking it off the sheet with a 5 bagger)... Then gave me a 244 in game 2 (my fault for missing a 10 pin in the 10th). The reaction allowed me to stay more relaxed and not worry so much about a huge split if I got a touch slow. For now, its gonna stay in my bag...