USBC Declares Motiv Jackal/Jackal Challenge Approval Revoked

[jab5325]

https://www.facebook.com/usbc/posts/10153897410520336

Interesting move.

I tried to find out more via the link in the Facebook post, but bowl.com seems to be having trouble.

What do you think of this? There's a few guys in my Wednesday league with the Jackal.

[JasonNJ]

I just created the same thread under the bowling ball forum. I'm interested in reading the article since I own a Jackal Carnage.

[JasonNJ]

I was just able to load the link.

http://bowl.com/News/NewsDetails.aspx?id=23622326199

So apparently the differential is greater than .60.

[scottymoney]

I just so happen to have one that I haven't gotten drilled yet. I got a Jackal used on ebay and just haven't gotten it drilled up for me.

From what I am seeing if you have either the Jackal or Carnage you will be able to send it in and pick out a ball of your choice.

[Aslan]

That's awesome.

Finally...the USBC actually takes a stand on something other than screwing Glenn Allison!!!

[NewToBowling]

Guess EJ Tackett and Gary Faulkner Jr are now free agents...

[Aslan]

So the PBA Players Champion and PBA World Champion were both throwing illegal equipment??

Nice Motiv. I wondered why two guys I never heard of both came out of nowhere to win.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/9d/d0/a1/9dd0a1581c7a16a75190f463011041d9.jpg

[scottymoney]

Guess EJ Tackett and Gary Faulkner Jr are now free agents...
Really not sure what you mean by this.......

2 balls were found to be over the diff limit of .060

[NewToBowling]

Meaning Motiv is going down in 3, 2, 1...

Of course this is all speculation but sounds a bit like VW Diesel fiasco. Doctored balls sent over to USBC for testing to pass certification.

[Aslan]

"Alright Hammy...get out of the Jackal Carnage...the USBC finally started checking."

http://dwarfhamsterblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/hamster-in-red-ball-1024x1024.jpg

[Aslan]

The good news is....most bowlers have no idea what the differential is....they just bought the Jackal because it has a picture of a coyote on it.

Granted...now that they KNOW it's illegal...the cost of the Jackal on Ebay is going to skyrocket as every bowling cheater, in their shoes powdered with ultra-slide, with their towels soaked in acetone....are now gonna flock to get their hands on the new must have ball for any cheater's collection....which they will wait until their averages are a good 157...then bust it out at sweeps and roll a 708.

"If ya ain't sandbaggin, ya aint tryin."

Iceman better hope to God the USBC doesn't show up in Hicksville, Kansas to test his Deadly Aims.

[Aslan]

Meaning Motiv is going down in 3, 2, 1...

Of course this is all speculation but sounds a bit like VW Diesel fiasco. Doctored balls sent over to USBC for testing to pass certification.

Motiv is only getting fined $16,000. Even for a Michigan-based company...they'll probably survive.

The recall could get pricey though...and just wait until league night...when the 1-2 knowledgeable people start trying to tell the league secretary that Bill Hoffstra can't roll his Jackal...because it's illegal in a USBC sanctioned league. I anticipate at least 75 fist fights breakout this week between Jackal owners and their competition.

Why couldn't it have been an illegal AMF ball....nobody even knows AMF makes bowling balls...it would have been less problematic. :rolleyes:

[NewToBowling]

Motiv is only getting fined $16,000. Even for a Michigan-based company...they'll probably survive.

The recall could get pricey though...and just wait until league night...when the 1-2 knowledgeable people start trying to tell the league secretary that Bill Hoffstra can't roll his Jackal...because it's illegal in a USBC sanctioned league. I anticipate at least 75 fist fights breakout this week between Jackal owners and their competition.

Why couldn't it have been an illegal AMF ball....nobody even knows AMF makes bowling balls...it would have been less problematic. :rolleyes:

The fine isn't the issue. This could be just the tip of the icerberg. Guessing USBC will start monitoring and testing Motiv balls more and more.

The PR issue alone will set them back a lot in comparison to other ball manufacturers.

[jab5325]

Meaning Motiv is going down in 3, 2, 1...

Of course this is all speculation but sounds a bit like VW Diesel fiasco. Doctored balls sent over to USBC for testing to pass certification.

I'm not sure how big of a deal this will end up being, but I'm interested to see how Motiv spins/plays this. It could be an existential threat to the company, or it could be not that big of a deal--I don't think there's much in between.

[vdubtx]

Not many manufacturers out there that will get that close to the limits of specs. I know of some older Hammer balls that are a .060 Diff and then these 2 Motivs that are over.

Wonder if the older Hammer's(Taboo Blak,Purple,spare to name a few), if still in use anywhere, were over after getting approved by USBC.

[vdubtx]

Also, this posted on FB

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12871454_1319969131362258_6641380362389176664_n.jp g?oh=dc997a317567af2230acef0c9c8196b2&oe=578F160F

[Aslan]

I'm not sure how big of a deal this will end up being, but I'm interested to see how Motiv spins/plays this. It could be an existential threat to the company, or it could be not that big of a deal--I don't think there's much in between.

The fine is nothing.

The RECALL is $$$$$.

And think of the other problems....you have leagues rolling tonight. Sanctioned leagues. Who goes around telling league secretaries that the Motiv Jackal is no longer approved? What if that's your only ball? You think a 190 average bowler with a Jackal is going to be happy if he has to bowl with a house ball tonight? How many drunken fights are there going to be as teams argue that they should have won tonight's match...because the guy on the other team shot a 641 with illegal equipment?

Re-equipping the pros is easy. They bowl in scheduled tournaments. Re-equipping 20,000 league bowlers...that's $1 million in shipping alone. Now, did Motiv sell 20,000 Jackals? Probably not. But, maybe. Even if they just sold 7,000....that's $350,000 in shipping to take those back and send out a new ball. Lets say the cost of the new ball is $35...that's another $245,000. So, conservative estimate, the recall will cost Motiv nearly $600,000.

The questions are:
1) Why did USBC decide to do this? Is it a response to a complaint?
2) If this is just an uptick in their policing efforts...are other ball manufacturers getting nervous?
3) Did Motiv do this on purpose? Or was this something they thought passed...and something failed?
4) Motiv uses similar cores in other balls. Were all other Motiv balls tested and found to be okay? What about planned releases for summer? Will Motiv have to scrap their new releases?
5) The USBC has stated it won't take anything (titles, winnings, etc...) away from bowlers who unknowingly used these balls in competition. Will the PBA back that stance? What if the Motiv pro bowlers KNEW they were illegal? Does that change anything?

This could be HUGE for Motiv. They're a small company...and in my opinion have been the most successful since DV8 and before them Storm...at kinda taking a significant market share of an industry that is tough to break into.

I anticipate Motiv must have known this was coming. I seriously doubt the USBC blindsided them with this public release. That means Motiv is doing their own in-house testing to verify the tests by the USBC...and likely considering appeal options...and contingency recall options.

But at this point....outside the USBC and Motiv...I bet very, very few people know anything about this.

On the upside:

1) The USBC is finally doing their job...unafraid of the ball manufacturers...at least as it appears.
2) This is the kinda story that makes bowling a topic for discussion in the national media. I wouldn't be shocked if it gets mentioned on CNBC or something like that.

[Aslan]

Also, this posted on FB

I hate my Nazi IT department...I can't read Facebook. Now I gotta try to read it on my phone! :mad:

[vdubtx]

I hate my Nazi IT department...I can't read Facebook. Now I gotta try to read it on my phone! :mad:

http://mashable.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/crying-waterfalls.gif

[Aslan]

That picture describes every reaction on the Motiv Facebook page.

Everybody with a Jackal is whining. We'll see how whiny they are when their ball becomes a collector's item..."first time USBC enforced a rule since 1973"....when Paul Colwell made himself pass out trying to soak bowling balls in MEK in his hotel room bathtub.

http://www.autographwarehouse.com/images/products/display/PaulColwell30.jpg

[NewToBowling]

Waiting for this to blow up on SportsCenter. Can't wait for BREAKING NEWS ticker

[bowl1820]

Okay here at league and they passed out notices to tell everyone they cant use them.

[foreverincamo]

My league is Thursday. Can't say I've seen a Motive ball being used. Wonder if they'll say anything. I'll contact my PSO and see what he says

[Amyers]

I know a few guys who throw these and I can't imagine they are going to be happy. Trying to build something that close to the limit probably wasn't a good idea but then again who knew the usbc actually monitored anything anymore.

[scottymoney]

I am sure it came under scrutiny after 2 majors wins recently. Honestly though, it is time for the USBC to look at more than just bowling balls. The lanes and oil pattern are so different a 200 average means nothing walking in to a different bowling alley.
I give Motiv credit for what they are doing to fix the issue, but I don't blame them one bit for either it being a mistake or trying to take advantage of the circumstances. But I doubt that they purposely increased the differential, you are talking thousandths off which could easily be a mistake along the way. When you try to push the boundaries of what it is legal to give your customers the best equipment you are bound to step over the line a bit.

If you have a problem and are outraged over this, I assume you have never called into work sick or never told a lie.

[JasonNJ]

This is an automated reply from emailing Motiv support.

As of March 15, 2016, the USBC announced that they have pulled approval of the Jackal & Jackal Carnage bowling balls due to non-conformance with current specifications. Recent spot checking in the marketplace showed that both balls had an average differential over the maximum limit of .060.
We are currently working on a form for our website at www.motivbowling.com that will allow bowlers to submit their Jackal or Jackal Carnage into a database to become eligible for a replacement ball. We expect the form to be on our website on Wednesday, March 23. While we will not be able to reimburse drilling fees, we will replace the bowling ball with a current model or a future release of the Jackal. More details in regards to this will be coming soon.
Please know that we stand behind our product & we sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this has caused. Thank you very much for your business & your patience on the matter

[jab5325]

This is an automated reply from emailing Motiv support.

As of March 15, 2016, the USBC announced that they have pulled approval of the Jackal & Jackal Carnage bowling balls due to non-conformance with current specifications. Recent spot checking in the marketplace showed that both balls had an average differential over the maximum limit of .060.
We are currently working on a form for our website at www.motivbowling.com that will allow bowlers to submit their Jackal or Jackal Carnage into a database to become eligible for a replacement ball. We expect the form to be on our website on Wednesday, March 23. While we will not be able to reimburse drilling fees, we will replace the bowling ball with a current model or a future release of the Jackal. More details in regards to this will be coming soon.
Please know that we stand behind our product & we sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this has caused. Thank you very much for your business & your patience on the matter

This is a decent way to respond.....but there's going to be a lot of pissed off people. They should reimburse drilling fees if you can provide proof of how much it cost.

League is tonight--there's going to be a couple of guys using different equipment for sure. I'll be interested to see how it turns out.

[NewToBowling]

This is a decent way to respond.....but there's going to be a lot of pissed off people. They should reimburse drilling fees if you can provide proof of how much it cost.

League is tonight--there's going to be a couple of guys using different equipment for sure. I'll be interested to see how it turns out.

No chance in hell they are reimbursing drilling fees. But sounds like they will allow customers to trade in balls

[scottymoney]

I am part of the Motiv Bowling facebook group. And a bunch of the proshop guys on there are providing free drilling for the replacements people get. Now that is class acts, it is one thing for the company to step up and replace the balls. It is another for proshops to step up and drill for free. Most are just charging the cost for the thumb slug/IT/grips.

I do feel bad for anyone who only has 1 or 2 balls and their ball was deemed illegal. My Jackal has yet to be drilled for me so it doesn't bother me that I can't use it. I can only imagine what some people are going through with this.

[jab5325]

No chance in hell they are reimbursing drilling fees. But sounds like they will allow customers to trade in balls

Agreed--but IMO from a customer service/goodwill standpoint, they should have those who turn the illegal balls in submit receipts for new drilling and pay up to $x for services.

[Aslan]

From Motiv's homepage:

March 15, 2016

Today the USBC announced that they have pulled approval of the Jackal and Jackal Carnage bowling balls due to non-conformance with current specifications. Recent spot checking in the marketplace showed that both balls had an average differential over the maximum limit of .060.

We are currently working on a form for our website that will allow bowlers to submit their Jackal or Jackal Carnage into a database to become eligible for a replacement ball. We expect the form to be online March 23. More details will be coming soon.

Thank you very much for your business. We sincerely apologize.

This actually clears up more than just "what next?" The bolded part at the end indicates they agree their balls are out of specification and are not going to fight this. It doesn't answer the questions about whether they or their athletes knew...and what the PBA is going to do to about Graham Fauk and Gary Faulkner...nor does it answer whether Motiv did this intentionally. I have a feeling given that last sentence, however, that Motiv accepts the decision and prefers to take the $500,000-$750,000 recall/fine hit over a fight.

[JasonNJ]

This actually clears up more than just "what next?" The bolded part at the end indicates they agree their balls are out of specification and are not going to fight this. It doesn't answer the questions about whether they or their athletes knew...and what the PBA is going to do to about Graham Fauk and Gary Faulkner...nor does it answer whether Motiv did this intentionally. I have a feeling given that last sentence, however, that Motiv accepts the decision and prefers to take the $500,000-$750,000 recall/fine hit over a fight.

I don't think the PBA will do anything to Faulkner or Fach. The USBC already announced that there will be no forfeiture for anyone using these balls before 3/15 I would expect the PBA to following suit.

[JasonNJ]

Agreed--but IMO from a customer service/goodwill standpoint, they should have those who turn the illegal balls in submit receipts for new drilling and pay up to $x for services.

The smart thing to do would be to allow exchange for a ball of choice and give something like a $25-50 coupon for future purchase with no expiration date. It'll be a lot less costly than full reimbursement of drillings and may help generate some sales.

[NewToBowling]

From Motiv's homepage:

March 15, 2016

Today the USBC announced that they have pulled approval of the Jackal and Jackal Carnage bowling balls due to non-conformance with current specifications. Recent spot checking in the marketplace showed that both balls had an average differential over the maximum limit of .060.

We are currently working on a form for our website that will allow bowlers to submit their Jackal or Jackal Carnage into a database to become eligible for a replacement ball. We expect the form to be online March 23. More details will be coming soon.

Thank you very much for your business. We sincerely apologize.

This actually clears up more than just "what next?" The bolded part at the end indicates they agree their balls are out of specification and are not going to fight this. It doesn't answer the questions about whether they or their athletes knew...and what the PBA is going to do to about Graham Fauk and Gary Faulkner...nor does it answer whether Motiv did this intentionally. I have a feeling given that last sentence, however, that Motiv accepts the decision and prefers to take the $500,000-$750,000 recall/fine hit over a fight.

It's out of spec. Nothing to fight. They knew the rules. The only question was intent. They are a smaller company so it may just be a quality control issue (which in itself is concerning) or an overall business decision to skirt the rules (ala VW Diesel fiasco). Just speculation and I don't think we'll ever find out.

[vdubtx]

Can't believe what I am reading on other forums. Shop owners pissed off that since they have to deal with the customers, thinking that they are on the hook for it.

https://images.encyclopediadramatica.se/5/52/Double-facepalm.jpg

[Aslan]

Can't believe what I am reading on other forums. Shop owners pissed off that since they have to deal with the customers, thinking that they are on the hook for it.

I read the facebook stuff yesterday...it's funny to me...because all last year in this forum...we heard Motiv-lovers talking about Motiv as if it was going to be this dominant ball company. Now, we heard that before...from Radical...from DV8...and before that from Storm. So to me...it was nothing new...just the "new flavor of the month". Where are all those Motiv guys now? Now it seems most people in the forum are "RotoGrip guys". It's just funny how it cycles.

And everyone that is complaining...on Facebook...these are the people that have resulted in bowling being irrelevant. They don't want pay USBC fees...they want awards for everything...they want easy conditions so they can pat themselves on a back about their 21 perfect games and 205 average...and they don't want the USBC to be involved in the sport at all. For THEM...that sounds awesome. But for the SPORT...it's a disaster.

The USBC has virtually no funds...the bowling centers for the most part are just barely turning a decent profit and don't want to even maintain their equipment...much less meet some special requirements and be audited by the USBC. The ball manufacturers have greatly reduced the skill needed to bowl well...and are now widely considered to be "just making stuff up" regarding their products. Everyone wants a standard and solid rules....unless that standard or those rules negatively affect them....then they complain.

I don't think Motiv did this on purpose. I don't think their athletes KNEW that the balls were out of spec. But HOW does that happen!!? When you have a PBA tournament....or even a USBC tournament...why aren't the balls inspected...every ball that is used should be inspected. To say...."well, we don't have the manpower.." Listen, I used to play paintball...for safety and fairness reasons....every single gun/marker...had to be inspected before play. Every single gun had to have a tag on it. If you're using a gun that was not velocity tested...you're ejected from the game and subject to ejection from the field. In the older days...you even had to have a LOCK on the velocity adjuster and weren't allowed to carry tools with you to adjust it. You also...were subject to field inspections.

I always had my guns tested...they had to fire < 289fps. Sometimes....I bumped that up a little....to say 285fps...and one time...I got field tested...it was like 322fps. The ref reduced it down to 275fps and I got a warning. That was my fault...I should have left it at 275...that way, in the hot weather, if it crept up a little, it still would have passed. Motiv did the same thing. Rather than have a differential of 0.056...they bumped it to the limit.

There should never be a bowling ball in PBA competition...in any round...that was not measured and tested for use. Had that been done....Falk and Falkner would have nothing to worry about. But, in this case....they will be known as the guys that only won because they were throwing illegal equipment. Whether they knew or not...doesn't matter. Like affirmative action...the downside to it, is if a black person gets a job...people are going to assume...maybe...maybe...they got that job not because of their qualifications....but because of their race. Graham Falk was supposed to be the first Canadian to win a major title or that major title (I forget)....and now there is an asterisk. Fair...not fair...doesn't matter. An asterisk is an asterisk.

[Amyers]

But, in this case....they will be known as the guys that only won because they were throwing illegal equipment. Whether they knew or not...doesn't matter. Like affirmative action...the downside to it, is if a black person gets a job...people are going to assume...maybe...maybe...they got that job not because of their qualifications....but because of their race. Graham Falk was supposed to be the first Canadian to win a major title or that major title (I forget)....and now there is an asterisk. Fair...not fair...doesn't matter. An asterisk is an asterisk.

I don't feel that this is asterisk worthy. The difference between .6 and .601 or whatever is so small it makes no real world difference. I agree the balls should be pulled the limit is the limit and I get that but let's not get crazy with it. Neither bowler won because and extra .001 or .002 in differential. This is checkable at the PBA level for the big guys who get their stuff drilled of the truck but remember the ball has to be tested for this before it's drilled so checking it at the USBC level is impossible.

I do feel that Motiv didn't do this on purpose and that the athletes most likely didn't know.

As far as the flavor of the month ball company thing it's always changed and always will. If you told me a year ago that I would have 2 Brunswick balls and only 1 storm/roto ball in my bag I would have laughed at you. Storm hasn't really made a ball that has excited me in better than a year. I doubt this kills Motiv's mojo some people will be mad some won't

[Aslan]

Well, hopefully the PBA comes out with a method to deal with this. Seems mighty coincidental that two relatively unknowns, both throwing Motiv, won two major championships back to back. PBA relying on the manufacturers...and the USBC...might at least need to be re-evaluated.

I think it would be easy to come up with a test, although imperfect. For example, lets say a 0.060 diff...when drilled in the most extreme allowable way...results in a 0.080 diff post drilling. The PBA could simply adopt 0.080 diff as a post-drilling limit. The pros, 1 hour before practice....all bring their balls in...they get a quick test for parameters.

1) Any ball out of spec is confiscated.
2) The confiscated ball counts against the ball maximum for the player (so their arsenal limit is reduced).
3) Bowlers are only allowed 3 out of spec balls per season/year. Once you hit #4, you're fined 20% of your earnings from that year or the previous year (whichever is greater) and you are suspended the remainder of the season.

I guarantee...GUARANTEE....no bowler will ever have 2 out of spec balls in a season. No chance. They may have one...on accident...but they will have their company drillers verifying and double verifying before those balls ever get to the official test.

It's like nuclear war. You don't have to launch missles to keep the other person from launching missles....you just need to say you will...and the problem is solved. Amyers is correct that these things make very little difference performance-wise...but that only furthers my point that no sane bowler is going to lose a ball from their arsenal for a round or tournament...or risk a fine....because they want a 0.009 diff advantage.

How many people have bowled in tournaments?
How many have had their bowling balls inspected? Zero?
How many bowlers had their balls drilled at a pro shop where the person actually tested it's weight and circumference as part of that process?

I used to have MWhite drill my bowling balls and one of the things I liked about his process is, he'd test all that. If it was out of spec, he'd add or widen or deepen the balance hole....or whatever to get it in spec. Other than him...I've never...of the other maybe 5 pro shops I've used to drill balls....never ONCE did they actually check. Why would they? No tournament I've ever been in checked the balls. I bet most pro shops don't even have a scale. They measure your hand...your fingers...draw the lines....drill the ball...put the inserts in..."here ya go". But believe me...if tournaments CHECKED...the pro shops would CHECK every time. Because they don't want someone coming back angry, because they couldn't bowl in a tournament because their ball was out of spec.

[NewToBowling]

Well, hopefully the PBA comes out with a method to deal with this. Seems mighty coincidental that two relatively unknowns, both throwing Motiv, won two major championships back to back. PBA relying on the manufacturers...and the USBC...might at least need to be re-evaluated.

To be honest the last few Majors have been filled with relative unknowns or newcomers to TV finals: Jesper, Simonsen, Sam Cooley. Add to that the WSOP Pattern Championships (Scorpion, etc...) were littered with unknowns as well. One had an all European final, the others with guys I have never heard of: A guy named Kim, another guy with a double jointed hand/wrist

[RobLV1]

Aslan: EVERY reputable PSO checks static weight legality on every ball he drills. If you have been to anyone to have a ball drilled who has not checked, DON'T GO BACK!

[Tony]

Aslan: EVERY reputable PSO checks static weight legality on every ball he drills. If you have been to anyone to have a ball drilled who has not checked, DON'T GO BACK!

The three different local drillers I have used all checked the ball before handing it over to me. I figured everyone probably did but I'm not surprised some don't ....

[bowl1820]

Aslan: EVERY reputable PSO checks static weight legality on every ball he drills. If you have been to anyone to have a ball drilled who has not checked, DON'T GO BACK!

Also if your going to a big tournament like the nationals, you get your ball checked before you go It saves you a lot of trouble.

[fokai73]

Yes it's illegal going over 0.060, but some ppl really think 0.004-0.016 is really going to make a difference? A fraction???

Most can't even repeat shots, yet they are he'll bent in learning numbers, graphs, etc....lol also they don't even understand basic ball motion...

[vdubtx]

Also if your going to a big tournament like the nationals, you get your ball checked before you go It saves you a lot of trouble.

Also, if they don't fall within static weights specs, they will drill a hole in the ball to get it into spec while going through squad room and ball check. From my experience this is "typically" done during the Team event.

[Aslan]

Aslan: EVERY reputable PSO checks static weight legality on every ball he drills. If you have been to anyone to have a ball drilled who has not checked, DON'T GO BACK!

I'm just saying...I've watched it being done. Now, the ONE ball I had drilled at K&K in Vegas...they "might" have done it because I had to leave it and it was done the next day...and their drill area is sort of off in the back...but I've had 3 other pro shop owners (not MWhite)...none of them measured to make sure the ball was the proper circumference...none of them put it on the scale before nor after drilling...I didn't even see scales in their shop.

I honestly think they figure nobody checks. How many bowlers even know there is such a thing as a "differential"? < 15%? How many of those know there are static weight requirements? < 6% total? I texted my league secretary about the Motiv thing...and my former teammate...and they both are absolutely AMAZED that I even know the Motiv thing even happened.

Again, I think Vegas is a different environment. So many tournaments go through there...it might be second nature to test the balls for static weights. But for most house bowlers...they just want a ball that "goes long and snaps", smells like blueberry muffins, has a name with A$$ in the title, and is Green or Purple. It's just a different World in Vegas....for LOTS of reasons....but even bowling.

But yeah, that's why I'm so picky about where I have mine drilled...because even though it was a royal pain in the rear to drive to the other side of Riverside to have Mike drill them...knowing there was a perfectly reasonably priced PSO at my home center...I still made the trip because I knew Mike would weigh them, check them, and do it the right way. And it sucks when you're someone like me...a 160-180 average newbie bowler...because if I ask a PSO "Can you check the static weights?"...they would give me a "look" and say something like, "That's a minor thing...I wouldn't worry about it at your level." I get eye rolls when going to pro shops and asking about things like RG or even cover stocks. Most pro shops are kinda just used to the average beer drinking league bowler....coming in wanting a 15lb Hammer or 15lb Storm ball...one that is "pretty".

You even hear stuff like that from Pros and Ball reps. PSOs sometimes get annoyed when you go in looking for a new ball and ask, "Why do you think this one would be a good fit?" They look at you like, "Ummmm....because I watched you bowl once and I own a pro shop and just shut up and buy it." You honestly think most PSOs have discussed and talked about specs as much as me, you, Amyers, Chuck, etc...??? How many pro shop owners know as much about bowling ball specs as you do? Even in Vegas?

First time I went into a pro shop to buy my first ball...he said, "What ya looking for?" I responded that I was finally going to get my own ball instead of using my Grandpa's hand me down." He asked what I had in mind...I said something around $80-$120...and that I was thinking of 15lbs because I felt like 16lbs might be too heavy. He showed me a Tropical Breeze and a Frantic....agreed that 15lbs would be best....drilled it in like 11 minutes...showed me how to throw it (fingertip)...and that was that. I had no idea balls even had a core...or what specs are or anything like that. There was no discussion about ball motion or why one ball would be better than another. And to be honest...that PSO was one of the better ones!

I tried to explain ball progression and how different balls do different things to that teammate that bought the Jackal back when I was on that team...and he thought I was hilarious....like I was just making it up. At some point ya just "give up" and just let people do their thing. If they end up frustrated because things aren't working....so be it.

[Amyers]

I'm just saying...I've watched it being done. Now, the ONE ball I had drilled at K&K in Vegas...they "might" have done it because I had to leave it and it was done the next day...and their drill area is sort of off in the back...but I've had 3 other pro shop owners (not MWhite)...none of them measured to make sure the ball was the proper circumference...none of them put it on the scale before nor after drilling...I didn't even see scales in their shop.

I honestly think they figure nobody checks. How many bowlers even know there is such a thing as a "differential"? < 15%? How many of those know there are static weight requirements? < 6% total? I texted my league secretary about the Motiv thing...and my former teammate...and they both are absolutely AMAZED that I even know the Motiv thing even happened.

Again, I think Vegas is a different environment. So many tournaments go through there...it might be second nature to test the balls for static weights. But for most house bowlers...they just want a ball that "goes long and snaps", smells like blueberry muffins, has a name with A$$ in the title, and is Green or Purple. It's just a different World in Vegas....for LOTS of reasons....but even bowling.

But yeah, that's why I'm so picky about where I have mine drilled...because even though it was a royal pain in the rear to drive to the other side of Riverside to have Mike drill them...knowing there was a perfectly reasonably priced PSO at my home center...I still made the trip because I knew Mike would weigh them, check them, and do it the right way. And it sucks when you're someone like me...a 160-180 average newbie bowler...because if I ask a PSO "Can you check the static weights?"...they would give me a "look" and say something like, "That's a minor thing...I wouldn't worry about it at your level." I get eye rolls when going to pro shops and asking about things like RG or even cover stocks. Most pro shops are kinda just used to the average beer drinking league bowler....coming in wanting a 15lb Hammer or 15lb Storm ball...one that is "pretty".

You even hear stuff like that from Pros and Ball reps. PSOs sometimes get annoyed when you go in looking for a new ball and ask, "Why do you think this one would be a good fit?" They look at you like, "Ummmm....because I watched you bowl once and I own a pro shop and just shut up and buy it." You honestly think most PSOs have discussed and talked about specs as much as me, you, Amyers, Chuck, etc...??? How many pro shop owners know as much about bowling ball specs as you do? Even in Vegas?

First time I went into a pro shop to buy my first ball...he said, "What ya looking for?" I responded that I was finally going to get my own ball instead of using my Grandpa's hand me down." He asked what I had in mind...I said something around $80-$120...and that I was thinking of 15lbs because I felt like 16lbs might be too heavy. He showed me a Tropical Breeze and a Frantic....agreed that 15lbs would be best....drilled it in like 11 minutes...showed me how to throw it (fingertip)...and that was that. I had no idea balls even had a core...or what specs are or anything like that. There was no discussion about ball motion or why one ball would be better than another. And to be honest...that PSO was one of the better ones!

I tried to explain ball progression and how different balls do different things to that teammate that bought the Jackal back when I was on that team...and he thought I was hilarious....like I was just making it up. At some point ya just "give up" and just let people do their thing. If they end up frustrated because things aren't working....so be it.

Even here in backwoods WV I've never had a PSO not weigh the ball. I did have one tell me once that the ball was only 1/2 an ounce over and that if I didn't want a hole in it he wouldn't as long as I wasn't going to nationals or anything. I had him add the hole.

I can believe that it happens though and I've seen way to often even good PSO's have a customer pick a high end ball that's not what they need and sell it to them with out saying a word.

One of the younger guys at the lanes where my pso is located just bought a lock. Poor guy was standing darn near on top of the ball return trying to throw it on older dry wood lanes. Told me he was thinking about buying an alpha crux next. I spent 30 minutes explaining how other balls might be better for where he bowls and his style to him. Seen him loading the alpha in his bag yesterday.

You can't waste to much time trying to cure stupid.

[Aslan]

http://www.thedailynewsonline.com/bdn02/bowlings-governing-body-declares-2-motiv-balls-illegal-20160317

FINALLY!

A publication finally decided to report on this issue. It's really sad that bowling is so irrelevant...that even something like this, which is rather unprecedented in the last 50-100 years, gets no coverage. What does bowling need to have happen to get coverage? The requirement that all sanctioned and PBA bowling be in the nude? :confused: From now on, all tournaments, pants optional and topless??

A summary for those lacking the ability to read (NOT VDub)...or who would prefer not to read it for they feel it's a trick to get them to download a virus....here are some "new" points not previously disclosed in past press releases:

- “We will not be able to reimburse drilling fees.,"
Cliff Notes: Your decision to GET MOTIVated....just cost you $55.

- "...but we will replace the bowling ball with a current model or a future release of the Jackal.”
Cliff Notes: You do NOT get to pick any ball in Motiv's line to replace your out of spec Jackal/Jackal Carnage AND they are apparently working on creating a new Jackal...I'm assuming with a differential < 0.060.

- "...he (Motiv President Scott Wilbur) had hoped that the company would be allowed to correct the problem without “punishing all the bowlers” who purchased these balls."
Not sure how you "correct the problem" without doing what the USBC did...ya can't change the differential remotely...but at least we know that while Motiv knows the problem is legitimate....they probably did push back a little bit at some point.

- “We will comply and will discontinue them,” said Wilbur, adding that the ruling will cost Motiv around $1 million."
Patting myself on the back....I guessed $750,000...Motiv estimates around 1 million. Also shows that Motiv, despite being a small company, makes a decent profit if 1 million isn't a back breaker.

- "Wilbur said he was of the impression there would be no probation or fine."
It sounds like, despite the fine/suspension listed in the USBC press release, Motiv feels that the USBC won't actually fine nor suspend them. I would guess that if that's true...it's because the USBC is just not in a strong enough position to drop the ganvil against an important ball manufacturer that is currently sponsoring the PWBA and other important events/initiatives.

Still no official word from the PBA. I have a feeling the PBA is taking a hard look at this and trying to balance their desire for Motiv to continue to be a key partner...while also trying to determine if their professional athletes knew anything about this and whether or not there was any intentional misdeeds/misgivings. Granted, I'm a bit disappointed in the PBA that they aren't at the forefront of this discussion. Other major sports, if Ridell or Wilson had a serious issue...I think those other governing bodies (NBA, NHL, MLB, NFL, etc...) would be out front reassuring the fans that they are looking into this. The last thing the PBA needs right now is the fans losing confidence that the competition is 'fair'.

Don't get me wrong...this is a majorly minor issue...some experts have even called for removing the static weight requirements altogether because they are so ultimately irrelevant....but this is probably the biggest story in bowling since Pete Weber's cocaine issues 30-40 years ago. I don't believe the USBC (or the older versions of bowlings regulatory bodies) has EVER in over 100 years de-certified balls of a major bowling ball company. This is even bigger from a historic standpoint than Bowlmor taking over the AMF and Brunswick centers...and Brunswick getting out of the bowling equipment industry.

[jab5325]

Does anyone know how exactly the USBC found out?

FWIW, my PSO/house owner said he heard that an anonymous shipment was sent to the USBC.

[vdubtx]

Does anyone know how exactly the USBC found out?

FWIW, my PSO/house owner said he heard that an anonymous shipment was sent to the USBC.

Yes, a box of 4 balls was sent to the USBC with a note to "Spin These". I am sure USBC got a hold of more to confirm the testing.

[bowl1820]

Yes, a box of 4 balls was sent to the USBC with a note to "Spin These". I am sure USBC got a hold of more to confirm the testing.

And the going opinion is one of the other ball companies did it. Because they have the ability to test the Diff.

There are those that think the whole "Spin these" comment gives you a clue to who, "cough" "cough" Radi..."cough"

If it is a company someone is wanting to play hardball, though it could just a PO'd employee.

[NewToBowling]

Of course one could say those 4 balls sent to USBC could have been doctored as well

[Amyers]

Of course one could say those 4 balls sent to USBC could have been doctored as well

Additional balls were purchase after they checked out after the 4 sent to them were found to be over

[jab5325]

And the going opinion is one of the other ball companies did it. Because they have the ability to test the Diff.

There are those that think the whole "Spin these" comment gives you a clue to who, "cough" "cough" Radi..."cough"

If it is a company someone is wanting to play hardball, though it could just a PO'd employee.

I wonder if this whole ordeal will have a Radical effect on Motiv.... :cool:

[bowl1820]

I wonder if this whole ordeal will have a Radical effect on Motiv.... :cool:

Yeah maybe a ball war will breakout, like the old gas wars. Imagine Motiv putting out a line of high performance balls for $99 and doing comparison videos against the other companies top line balls.:cool:

[NewToBowling]

Yeah maybe a ball war will breakout, like the old gas wars. Imagine Motiv putting out a line of high performance balls for $99 and doing comparison videos against the other companies top line balls.:cool:

I'm in. Add to that a voucher to redeem at any pro shop for free drilling (reinbursed by Motiv of course)

[Aslan]

Yes, a box of 4 balls was sent to the USBC with a note to "Spin These". I am sure USBC got a hold of more to confirm the testing.

Where's the link to that article?

Do you (everyone, not just VDub...but including VDub) honestly think it's conincidence that this happened at/around/just after Motiv athletes took two major titles??

Not saying it isn't just a coincidence...but I'm very curious as to why the PBA is silent. I have a feeling at least Mr. Fach and Mr. Falkner have received a phone call from the PBA. I just have a feeling...that the PBA might be asking some tough questions about who knew what and when. All it takes is one Motiv bowler...to hint that they kinda knew...or that Motiv told them...and this goes from a Page 7 story only bowling nerds care about...to ESPN Sportscenter-worthy...Page 2 of the USA Today sports section.

Friggin Michigan.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/46/7e/5b/467e5b5dc80d36c2db5e0874c04142b8.jpg

They actually start a good company, in a factory Brunswick abandoned to send it's jobs to Mexico, and then they get one ****stick engineer that is like, "Well, if the limit is 0.060...then why don't we make it that?" I mean, if thy aren't testing the drinking water in Flint...are people really gonna give a **** about bowling ball static weight differentials?"

http://www.relatably.com/m/img/stupid-memes/if-u-got-this-wrong-youre-stupid_o_1220076.jpg

[bowl1820]

Where's the link to that article?

The whole "Spin these" story as far as I've been able to find is a just another rumor. The only thing you can find that says anything is that the USBC was doing spot checks and caught it.

Though that does sound unlikely, it could be. If thats not what happened, then most likely it was a company tipping them off.

Because the USBC would more likely listen to a company ( and maybe possibly a Motiv employee) tipping them off and taking it seriously, than they would just a proshop or ordinary bowler.

[Mike White]

If it's a company, I'd bet on Radical. They seem to obsess on things like differential.

[scottymoney]

I am sitting back and waiting for the story to unfold. I am sure we will eventually get more details.

Aslan man you need to relax and go find another hobby. Plus your wall of texts never helps matters. Nobody wants to read your essays. Attack me I don't care, just relax man! Go relax and smoke one or something or whatever your preferable method of relaxation is.

[Aslan]

I am sitting back and waiting for the story to unfold. I am sure we will eventually get more details.

Aslan man you need to relax and go find another hobby. Plus your wall of texts never helps matters. Nobody wants to read your essays. Attack me I don't care, just relax man! Go relax and smoke one or something or whatever your preferable method of relaxation is.

Well, if you don't like people...go start your own bowling forum...DOHT!!....that already failed.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/09/bb/0d/09bb0d5d846ea5dfe5a1156004e01fbd.jpg

Yeah...wishing me away ...unlikely to happen...wish in one hand...*** in the other...see which one fills up first.

I post what I post. You seem technologically savvy enough to at least minimally be able to use the "ignore" feature. If people don't take advantage of that...then it's on them. Just cuz you're mad that your favorite ball company got caught cheating...don't take it out on me.

I hear Twitter has a word limit...maybe stick to that. :rolleyes:

https://adriannerussell.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/grumpy-old-man.jpg

[scottymoney]

Yeah I did have my own forum which went away for reasons out of my control. I could have created it again but Bill and I decided it was not worth the time to have. We wanted to do something else. And come to think of it, I kind of just enjoy bowling and not have the responsibility of taking care of something I was not profiting from. We took in zero money and were able to give away 3 balls. In the end it just isn't worth the time and effort.

And really caught cheating? I am sure those thousandths of differential really were meant to be there. Whatever though you can think you are right, I will keep throwing Motiv. And I am not mad this happened. At least the USBC finally stood up and enforced something albeit because supposedly someone sent them balls to test. In the end it really is a quality control issue which I am sure they will take care of.

I will keep supporting an American made product.

GET MOTIVATED!

[NewToBowling]

Keep in mind most bowling mfgs are American made so you could still be supporting America by buying Storm or Ebonite. Just sayin'

[scottymoney]

Keep in mind most bowling mfgs are American made so you could still be supporting America by buying Storm or Ebonite. Just sayin'

Well yes there are other American made options. But Motiv's story comes from the fact that Brunswick started making balls in Mexico shutting down the plant in Michigan. Which is now the home of Motiv. The other brands are good, and I do have a Storm ball myself. I just like my Motiv equipment better. I also like being different and in an area where Storm/Roto is everywhere I want something different.

[vdubtx]

Where's the link to that article?

Do you (everyone, not just VDub...but including VDub) honestly think it's conincidence that this happened at/around/just after Motiv athletes took two major titles??

Coincidence, no, dont think so.

DV8/Brunswick


The whole "Spin these" story as far as I've been able to find is a just another rumor. The only thing you can find that says anything is that the USBC was doing spot checks and caught it.

Though that does sound unlikely, it could be. If thats not what happened, then most likely it was a company tipping them off.

Because the USBC would more likely listen to a company ( and maybe possibly a Motiv employee) tipping them off and taking it seriously, than they would just a proshop or ordinary bowler.

http://i68.tinypic.com/14l68sh.jpg

[bowl1820]

Coincidence, no, dont think so.

DV8/Brunswick



http://i68.tinypic.com/14l68sh.jpg[/IMG]

In away that notice still doesn't come right out and say who actually said that. Several say that well Dilaura has friends/contacts in the companies and the USBC, so it's still kind of a Well I heard it friend of a friend whose in the know, but I can't tell you who.


Most likely it was a company Radicalor maybe even couple companies got together, they said hey Motiv is getting too big and showing up on TV to much and that should be us. lets take them down a notch.

[vdubtx]

http://i68.tinypic.com/14l68sh.jpg[/IMG]

In away that notice still doesn't come right out and say who actually said that. Several say that well Dilaura has friends/contacts in the companies and the USBC, so it's still kind of a Well I heard it friend of a friend whose in the know, but I can't tell you who.


Most likely it was a company Radicalor maybe even couple companies got together, they said hey Motiv is getting too big and showing up on TV to much and that should be us. lets take them down a notch.

Only reason I think DV8/Brunswick is both Faulkner and Fach beat Ciminelli. :D

[Mike White]

That's awesome.

Finally...the USBC actually takes a stand on something other than screwing Glenn Allison!!!

If anyone screwed Glenn Allison it was La Habra lanes.

Back in the 80's Orange County was known as the home of the "wall babies".

La Habra, by not following the rules for oil pattern application, took what might have been Glenn's best performance ever, and wasted it.

Or, if the lanes hadn't been walled up, his performance might not have achieved a 900 series.

Bottom line is, we'll never know for sure.

It's the same way now. If a bowler has good night, was it a good performance, or just the lane pattern helping out?

The difference is, as long as USBC got paid, they recognize the score.

[Mike White]

Keep in mind most bowling mfgs are American made so you could still be supporting America by buying Storm or Ebonite. Just sayin'

My balls from Storm are manufactured in Taiwan.

Ebonite balls come from Kentucky, and we'd rather not be reminded that Kentucky is part of the US.

[Mike White]

There is a gross weight limit of 16lbs, but manufactures ship balls exceeding 16 lbs frequently.

There is a 3 oz limit of top weight, but again manufactures ship balls exceeding 3 oz top weight frequently.

It's up to the pro shop to drill the ball in such a way that the ball doesn't exceed these limits after drilling.

It seems odd that a Differential limit would be placed on the manufacturer, but can be exceeded by the pro shop.

Has USBC researched wether anything above 0.060 differential at the time of manufacturing gives the bowler an unfair scoring advantage?

Are we back to USBC just making up rules like the No-Thumb issue.

[Aslan]

Listen, I have NO beef with Motiv. It may pain me (and Scotty) to say this, but I actually have great respect for Motiv for the exact reason that Scotty mentioned....they took a factory and workforce Brunswick abandoned and made it a success story.

And I think the USBC...although it shouldn't take random people sending balls in with notes...did exactly what they should have and exactly what they HAD to do. In a way, their hands were tied. If they got that box of balls...and ignored it...then it would have been a real big deal. It's one thing to be lacking in rule enforcement...it's another thing to simply allow widespread, known violations.

Where I'm unhappy....is:
1) I was getting annoyed with "Motivators" because they were trying extra had to make it seem like Motiv was doing something special...that their products were in some way better than other companies. And there was no evidence to support that. Motiv simply did a much better job of grabbing up talent than the other companies (except Storm who hires everyone...and Brunswick who has the Hall of Famers locked up).

2) I'm upset with the media that this story...all be it about something rather small in terms of differential...is very significant historically....the first time the USBC has really done something like this. Yet God forbid ESPN...who aires bowling...should mention it or a major newspaper run a story on the back page of the sports section.

3) The PBA...is either investigating...or should disband. To have the last two majors won by bowlers throwing illegal equipment...and to just have the PBA sit back and act like Officer Barbrady from South Park....is a joke.

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/250x250/59287567.jpg

They may not WANT this...but this is free publicity and a chance for the PBA to reassure people that there is some level credibility in the professional game...and thus far the PBA has dropped, kicked, and fumbled the ball by sitting back and hoping it'll just go away. It's no wonder bowling has lost interest....even the PBA has lost interest in itself.

Again, nothing against Motiv...I feel bad that they were the scapegoat...but it was their own fault for not doing proper research and proper quality control. And I don't think differential is the biggest deal and why Fach and Falkner won. But this is the biggest story in bowling since Belmo won the 3 majors a couple years ago...or PDW's weird Howard Dean moment...or Daugherty's 100-game...and nobody is talking about it. WE are...but we don't matter.

I e-mailed the PBA...and I'm going to continue to e-mail and annoy them until somebody in that joke of an organization actually says SOMETHING. And I gotta think...I'm not the only one. I gotta think that the other ball manufacturers...are not very happy that Fach and Falkner won using illegal equipment. To think that Radical did this just to "stick it to Motiv" is short-sighted. If it was Radical....or any other company...they DID this because a competitor is cheating...and either the rules need to get changed...or something had to be done about it.

[Hot_pocket]

I'm leaning toward a company telling. A pissed off employee loses their job and probably will never be hired for another ball company again ,if they find out who it was. Plus why would the ball just pop up on the radar like that with the field having multiple new comers. whoever did it already knew what the outcome was going to be.

[Mike White]

The ball manufacturers have greatly reduced the skill needed to bowl well

If you believe that to be true, it doesn't say much for your skill level.

Ball manufacturers have greatly reduced the skill needed to make the ball change direction which gives the ball sideways momentum, which reduces deflection.

But that in itself only increases the potential to score higher.

In the "modern" game of bowling, I don't equate scoring well with bowling well.

If the only thing to change was the creation of reactive resin ball, they would have been a passing fad.

On the oil patterns of the 80's, a resin ball would "burn up" very easily, and there would be no hold area for shots pulled left.

It's the allowable oil patterns that has significantly reduced the skill required to score well.


It's back in the late 80's, I think in response to Glenn Allison's 900 being rejected that the BPAA forced the ABC (now USBC) to put in motion the oil procedures that were guaranteed to pass inspection after an honor score was shot.

First thing I remember ABC trying was limited distance dressing. You could oil the lanes any ways you wanted, but couldn't apply oil more than 24 feet past the foul line.

Imagine trying to use reactive resin on 24 feet of oil.

Ball manufacturers helped the guy who couldn't get the ball to roll before resin, Kegel (and others) with it's computerized lane dressing machine, allowed any bowling center to consistently put out an easy oil pattern without having to hire an "expert" in lane conditioning. Synthetic lanes removed the grain of each board from influencing the ball reaction differently.

The result is people get back end reaction without learning how to properly release the ball, and improved accuracy (not by physically being more accurate) by tugging the ball up against the wall of oil.

The only skill remaining is selecting the right ball that when it exists the oil (up against the wall) will make enough move left to hit the pocket.

There are a select few who understand that limited skill required and can adjust for it when encountering different oil patterns in different centers.

There are some how happen upon a combination that works in a specific house, but if they move elsewhere, they haven't a clue.

And there are some who simply haven't a clue no matter where they go.

My Laughlin league had 2 people who averaged in the 230's. So they were fairly consistent, and knew what was needed to score well in our regular house.

When we went to Laughlin, the oil pattern was from 6 to 6 instead of the 10 to 10 we normally bowled on.

One of the two 230's shot 740, while the other didn't break 500.

The guy who didn't break 500 either didn't know how to adjust, or didn't have the equipment needed to move from the end of the pattern to the pocket.

So even with a 230 average, doesn't mean you have a full set of skills.

[Mike White]

I'm leaning toward a company telling. A pissed off employee loses their job and probably will never be hired for another ball company again ,if they find out who it was. Plus why would the ball just pop up on the radar like that with the field having multiple new comers. whoever did it already knew what the outcome was going to be.

you have listed in your equipment a gamebreaker.

If that is the original, not the gamebreaker 2 then you have a ball that exceeds current Diff limits even more than the Jackel/Jackel Challenge.

The difference is the ball existed before the rule was moved to .060.

If USBC really feels that exceeding .060 gives the bowler an advantage, they should have banned the gamebreaker rather than grandfather it.

It shows that for the USBC the integrity of the sport takes a back seat to convenience.

[Aslan]

If you believe that to be true, it doesn't say much for your skill level.
See...you're right...but not in the way you think.

You ARE right...if I'm not averaging >175 on a house shot...given the equipment I have access to...then I'm not very good.

Okay...SHOULD I be? Should a person who started bowling in 2013...roughly < 3 years ago...be one of the top bowlers in his/her league? Should John Burkett be able to just waltz into professional bowling and win titles?

See, I agree that I'm not very good. Where I differ with most bowlers is:
1) I can admit that...and do.
2) I don't think thats a bad thing...to have to gain experience in order to be "good".
3) I prefer to learn the game, learn the technique, and learn how to adjust...rather than just buying the newest ball release by Storm every 6 months and let the ball raise my average.

I use older equipment than almost any serious bowler...and some non-serious bowlers....knowing that by doing so...I am at a disadvantage. I throw a stroker shot...knowing that my carry will suffer and I'll have to actually shoot spares. I force myself to shoot plastic at all corner leaves on both sides....because if I can't throw a ball straight...I don't deserve to pick up the spares. I bowl in multiple houses...I join challenge/sport shot leagues....despite not being able to even average what a vacant spot would net. I join tournaments...I take all challengers (even you)...and I spend $150+ on lessons from the best pros in bowling.

See, I think that is the level of dedication needed to get to the next level. Regardless of equipment. You think PDW or Norm Duke...if throwing a urethane ball would be a 150 average bowler? They can bowl with any ball you give them and win 98% of the time against an average house bowler. When a person has THAT skill level...then they are good.

Picking up a Crux and winning a side pot or getting a 300-game bouncing the ball off a dry breakpoint...I guess I could do that if I wanted to....but what's the point? If 300s aren't as meaningful as they once were....then why focus any effort on obtaining one? I watch bowlers....with some of the worst technique I've ever seen....roll 269s and 279s. I compete every Saturday against guys with terrible form and no ability to adjust and can barely pick up corner spares. Sometimes they win...and they SHOULD. They've been bowling for 30 years in the same house....I've been bowling less than 3 years and less than 1 year in this house.

But...BUT...I have an advantage. They can't adjust. The youngster that palms the ball...can't hit a 10-pin...he doesn't understand that at that rev rate...he'll need a plastic ball to pick up that pin. The big guy...he can shoot some high scores....but I beat him 2 out of 3 games last night...his shot just wasn't working...and he didn't have another shot or even another ball. The other old guy...my real competition...was an excellent spare shooter...but he continued to use the Hyper Cell...even when it was relatively clear that ball was losing energy before hitting the pocket. He picked up his spares...and I beat him Game 2...not because I'm better....but because I adjusted much earlier to a different ball...I was able to see in 2 frames what took him 2 games to see.

So, you're right...but not in the way you think. I shouldn't be a better bowler...it should take me 30 years to average 190 in a league...not 1.5 years. It should take every other day practice sessions and study and years of shooting spares...to get to the level where a person bowls in tournaments...not 6 months of bowling on a THS. But...it doesn't...unless you want it to. If people want to just average 220 and get 7 300-games before they die...I'm sure Storm will have a fancy new ball in a month or so...just stay in the same house...eventually you'll get there. But don't be surprised or have an ego heart attack...when you go to sweeps or try the USBC Open...and average 135-155.

I easily beat my anchors at sweeps...both leagues I've went with...actually even the 3rd league in Laughlin. They think they average higher than me on an easy THS...and that means they're better. But while they were out getting drunk in a night club the night before...I was practicing 6-10 games in the AM and 6-10 games in the PM. While they were bragging about their 205 averages...I was frustrated that my 190 average wasn't "real". I know how to bowl, and adjust...and I'm honest when I miss...that it's not bad luck or bad pin placement...it's a bad shot. They just get pissed off at the center, or that lanes, or the spotting, or the approaches.

And I will remind you....beacause I can...that I'm 3-2 against you in competition. Granted...before you even say it...yes, in our league play...I think I only had a higher series one week. But...like I said to Iceman...you SHOULD beat me....you've been bowling almost as many years as I've been alive. How pathetic would it be if I actually WAS better than you?

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p627/iamnotspock/gif1/106g5uajpg.gif

[Mike White]

That picture describes every reaction on the Motiv Facebook page.

Everybody with a Jackal is whining. We'll see how whiny they are when their ball becomes a collector's item..."first time USBC enforced a rule since 1973"....when Paul Colwell made himself pass out trying to soak bowling balls in MEK in his hotel room bathtub.

http://www.autographwarehouse.com/images/products/display/PaulColwell30.jpg

It's odd that in denying Glenn Allison's 900 series they were enforcing a rule, but with the soakers, there wasn't a rule to enforce, so they made a new rule.

One rule I know isn't enforced is the 3 units of oil minimum everywhere on the lane where oil is applied.

1st off most computerized lane machines can't apply oil on all 39 boards.

so the 1 board, left and right, never receive ANY oil.

2nd, on a THS, the widest load assigned to the machine isn't from 2 to 2, so again, some boards never receive ANY oil.

[Mike White]

See...you're right...but not in the way you think.


I am right in exactly the way I think.



The ball manufacturers have greatly reduced the skill needed to bowl well


The only effect ball manufacturers have created is to give a person more back end motion than their release skill would allow with pre-modern balls.

Ball manufactures didn't wall up the lanes.

So given ball manufacturers reduced the skill needed to achieve good back end motion, and you still can't achieve good back end motion, then there is a significant lack of release skill on your part.

Also as for years of bowling, if I had continued to bowl from the time I started until now, or only missed a year here and there, then your lack of experience might be valid, but I didn't bowl at all between 1992 and 2012.

Since the game completely changed during that time, I was effectively starting from scratch.

The difference was, I started with a higher bowling IQ in 2012 than you did.

With all of the information available today, you've had plenty of opportunity to catch up.

The problem is, a lot of the information available today even from coaching is really worthless.

For most people who want to improve their scores, their options are easier lanes, and different balls.

I stick with the idea to improve, all I need to do is make better shots, and make them more often.

Oh, and get more physically fit.

Too many times I feel back pains as I release spare balls.

And I need to figure out how to digest the basket ball I seem to have swallowed.

[Aslan]

My health is holding strong. Will it for a decade? I dunno.

I've always had a bad knee and then kinda messed my ankles up a bit in high school/college. Fortunately, as long as I don't over do things....the knee has been fine. It would probably be even "more fine" if I dropped 30-40 pounds. The annoying thing lately has been the elbow. I tried a more under the ball release...and was using my fingers too much...ended up straining a ligament or tendon in my elbow. There's no permanent damage....but the only way for it to fully heal is to stop bowling for awhile...which I have been reluctant to do. It doesn't limit me much during standard practice and league play...but if I ever graduated to a tournament scene where I was doing 9 games a day for a week...I might have to start doing the physical therapy on the knee and let the elbow heal up. I'm getting tired of grimacing whenever I go to take a book or binder off a shelf.

[billf]

The questions are:
1) Why did USBC decide to do this? Is it a response to a complaint?
2) If this is just an uptick in their policing efforts...are other ball manufacturers getting nervous?
3) Did Motiv do this on purpose? Or was this something they thought passed...and something failed?
4) Motiv uses similar cores in other balls. Were all other Motiv balls tested and found to be okay? What about planned releases for summer? Will Motiv have to scrap their new releases?
5) The USBC has stated it won't take anything (titles, winnings, etc...) away from bowlers who unknowingly used these balls in competition. Will the PBA back that stance? What if the Motiv pro bowlers KNEW they were illegal? Does that change anything?

This could be HUGE for Motiv. They're a small company...and in my opinion have been the most successful since DV8 and before them Storm...at kinda taking a significant market share of an industry that is tough to break into.

I anticipate Motiv must have known this was coming. I seriously doubt the USBC blindsided them with this public release. That means Motiv is doing their own in-house testing to verify the tests by the USBC...and likely considering appeal options...and contingency recall options.

But at this point....outside the USBC and Motiv...I bet very, very few people know anything about this.

On the upside:

1) The USBC is finally doing their job...unafraid of the ball manufacturers...at least as it appears.
2) This is the kinda story that makes bowling a topic for discussion in the national media. I wouldn't be shocked if it gets mentioned on CNBC or something like that.

1. A certain ball company who has more family employed by the USBC than any other manufacturer purchased a few dozen cases of these balls, wrote spin me on the boxes and sent them to USBC
2. So far no other balls have been "field tested" even those close to the differential limits. That will probably change once people realize how political this is
3 & 4. A similar core isn't used in other balls. It's the same core that has been used, tested and approved in 7 previous releases. Some of these vintage balls that were still NIB have been checked and passed. Which brings us to a possible bad mold at the plant scenario. If that is the case then of course Motiv didn't know. Anybody I've met who is on Motiv's payroll in any way, shape or form has comes across as helpful and genuine. I still communicate with Angela Wilt (motiv girl here) frequently even after she left Motiv for Brunswick. All that being said I believe it was a mistake but if it turns out Motiv did this on purpose I will never use another product of theirs again. I said that in the past and still haven't bought a new 900RotoStorm. A company lies to me once and I'm done with them, period.
5. Once a ball is drilled the differential changes. Most pros have their stuff drilled on the truck so not sure any of them would have bothered checking the true diff before doing so. I know Graham Fach so I can say with certainty that he did not know.

[Aslan]

Thanks Billf.

I guess what I'm waiting for is the PBA to weigh in. The longer they wait, the more the speculation builds.

If I were the USBC, I'd have done exactly what they did and said it exactly the way they said it.

If I were Motiv, I would have responded the way they did....but added something to the effect of "We have identified a quality control issue in our production facility that we believe caused this outcome. We have resolved that quality control issue and are confident that this will not happen in the future and have put multiple safeguards in place to ensure that. Furthermore, we absolutely guarantee the PBA and bowling fans that our talented Motiv athletes were not aware of the compliance issue nor was anyone in our organization until the USBC brought it to our attention."

If I were the PBA, I'd respond IMMEDIATELY after this news...with something to the effect; "The PBA takes non-compliant equipment very seriously and are currently investigation the matter. We have no reason to suspect that foul play was conducted by Motiv or it's athletes but are currently conducting a thorough investigation. The PBA will also be working with the USBC and our ball manufacturing partners to put additional controls in place to eliminate the possibility of anything like this occurring in the future. Our full investigation report will be available once said investigation is completed."

See...by making those statements, Motiv is admitting the problem and identifying that they have found the cause while at the same time making it clear that this was not intentional, it was not known by itself or it's athletes, and that it is already resolved. By the PBA making the above statement, they are assuring fans that they care and are aware.

What speaks VOLUMES...often times is not what IS said, but what is NOT said. By Motiv saying what they did...they left themselves wide open for the assumption that they knew about this. By not saying specifically what the cause was and assuring people they've resolved it...it leads one to believe they "kinda knew" and therefore don't want indict themselves or commit purgury. They also leave their athletes open to criticism...because by NOT saying the athletes had no idea....it leads one to speculate they DID have an idea.

The PBA, on the other hand, by saying NOTHING...is giving the impression that either:
A) They think there's a story, a negative story, and hope that if they close their eyes and tap their heels together....everyone will forget this in a couple weeks.
or
B) They simply don't care.

No other major sport or hobby (football, hockey, baseball, Nascar, horse racing, chess, darts, poker, basketball, etc...) would simply stay silent when equipment used in their major competitions was exposed as being non-compliant. Olympic medals would be taken away. Championship banners taken down. Fines and penalties assessed against players and the organization. But at LEAST, there would be an investigation...at LEAST. How many millions of dollars and points taken away...have occurred in Nascar each race when cars are found to be out of compliance? Look what the NFL did regarding slightly deflated footballs. Bats and sticks can be checked by referees and umpires...pine tar and vasoline can get a pitcher thrown out. If a team in the NBA uses smaller hoops or a 9.5ft net...it's gonna be an issue!

So, by the PBA standing idly by...no comment...no statement...they are either hiding something or they are simply incompetent. Even if that last statement is false....by saying NOTHING....that will lead people to those assumptions. And more insulting to us bowling fanatics....is that the PBA has really missed the boat on getting some actual PRESS...some actual media coverage...some actual relevance on the national stage. This is a golden opportunity for the PBA to be noticed, even if it's not positive press...it's still press. And the fact that they are actual professionals...who get paid...and they can't see this while a low-level nobody like me can...is sad, sad, sad.

If I don't see something from the PBA soon, I guess I just need to go old school and start writing letters to newspapers and media. Eventually, the PBA will be forced to respond...the only difference is once they are FORCED....they look either guilty or incompetent...and that's on them.

[Amyers]

Thanks Billf.

I guess what I'm waiting for is the PBA to weigh in. The longer they wait, the more the speculation builds.

If I were the USBC, I'd have done exactly what they did and said it exactly the way they said it.

If I were Motiv, I would have responded the way they did....but added something to the effect of "We have identified a quality control issue in our production facility that we believe caused this outcome. We have resolved that quality control issue and are confident that this will not happen in the future and have put multiple safeguards in place to ensure that. Furthermore, we absolutely guarantee the PBA and bowling fans that our talented Motiv athletes were not aware of the compliance issue nor was anyone in our organization until the USBC brought it to our attention."

If I were the PBA, I'd respond IMMEDIATELY after this news...with something to the effect; "The PBA takes non-compliant equipment very seriously and are currently investigation the matter. We have no reason to suspect that foul play was conducted by Motiv or it's athletes but are currently conducting a thorough investigation. The PBA will also be working with the USBC and our ball manufacturing partners to put additional controls in place to eliminate the possibility of anything like this occurring in the future. Our full investigation report will be available once said investigation is completed."

See...by making those statements, Motiv is admitting the problem and identifying that they have found the cause while at the same time making it clear that this was not intentional, it was not known by itself or it's athletes, and that it is already resolved. By the PBA making the above statement, they are assuring fans that they care and are aware.

What speaks VOLUMES...often times is not what IS said, but what is NOT said. By Motiv saying what they did...they left themselves wide open for the assumption that they knew about this. By not saying specifically what the cause was and assuring people they've resolved it...it leads one to believe they "kinda knew" and therefore don't want indict themselves or commit purgury. They also leave their athletes open to criticism...because by NOT saying the athletes had no idea....it leads one to speculate they DID have an idea.

The PBA, on the other hand, by saying NOTHING...is giving the impression that either:
A) They think there's a story, a negative story, and hope that if they close their eyes and tap their heels together....everyone will forget this in a couple weeks.
or
B) They simply don't care.

No other major sport or hobby (football, hockey, baseball, Nascar, horse racing, chess, darts, poker, basketball, etc...) would simply stay silent when equipment used in their major competitions was exposed as being non-compliant. Olympic medals would be taken away. Championship banners taken down. Fines and penalties assessed against players and the organization. But at LEAST, there would be an investigation...at LEAST. How many millions of dollars and points taken away...have occurred in Nascar each race when cars are found to be out of compliance? Look what the NFL did regarding slightly deflated footballs. Bats and sticks can be checked by referees and umpires...pine tar and vasoline can get a pitcher thrown out. If a team in the NBA uses smaller hoops or a 9.5ft net...it's gonna be an issue!

So, by the PBA standing idly by...no comment...no statement...they are either hiding something or they are simply incompetent. Even if that last statement is false....by saying NOTHING....that will lead people to those assumptions. And more insulting to us bowling fanatics....is that the PBA has really missed the boat on getting some actual PRESS...some actual media coverage...some actual relevance on the national stage. This is a golden opportunity for the PBA to be noticed, even if it's not positive press...it's still press. And the fact that they are actual professionals...who get paid...and they can't see this while a low-level nobody like me can...is sad, sad, sad.

If I don't see something from the PBA soon, I guess I just need to go old school and start writing letters to newspapers and media. Eventually, the PBA will be forced to respond...the only difference is once they are FORCED....they look either guilty or incompetent...and that's on them.

I'm just not sure what your wanting from the PBA. At the tine of the two wins that you have mentioned the balls were legal now they are not what's for the PBA to comment on? Do you really expect the PBA to go after Motiv when the only people keeping it solvent are the bowling ball companies? Do any of us actually believe the PBA has an investigative arm that are out there interviewing the Motiv company or their sponsored bowlers? Get Real.

The only guidelines the PBA has on balls are that they have to meet the USBC approval. At the time the tournaments were played the balls were on the approved list. The USBC didn't open the can of worms of going back and saying wins were forfeited prior to the date that they ruled the balls ineligible why would the PBA.

[NewToBowling]

Whether Fach or Faukner knew about USBC approvals or not we will never know. I'm leaning towards the fact that they didn't know.

And yeah, bowling ball manufacturers are their bread and butter revenue stream. So PBA nor USBC is really going to lay the hammer down.

[Aslan]

I'm just not sure what your wanting from the PBA. At the tine of the two wins that you have mentioned the balls were legal now they are not what's for the PBA to comment on? Do you really expect the PBA to go after Motiv when the only people keeping it solvent are the bowling ball companies? Do any of us actually believe the PBA has an investigative arm that are out there interviewing the Motiv company or their sponsored bowlers? Get Real.
This is part of the problem with bowling...you and others respond to stuff like this with a "who cares" mentality. Well, I guess nobody cares...and thus you have a sport that is no longer relevant.

You can't have it both ways. You can't want bowling to be more popular, and then apologize for the PBA or USBC when they miss an opportunity to make bowling relevant.

If it doesn't matter...it doesn't matter...and neither does bowling. ESPN airs bowling on it's network...not one mention of this story. If the ONE network...that would benefit from mentioning bowling...doesn't....even in the rare times where there is a "story"...then that speaks volumes about the decline of bowling.


The only guidelines the PBA has on balls are that they have to meet the USBC approval. At the time the tournaments were played the balls were on the approved list. The USBC didn't open the can of worms of going back and saying wins were forfeited prior to the date that they ruled the balls ineligible why would the PBA.
So, you're saying that if Motiv knew, and told Fach and Falkner that the Jackal and Jackal Carnage were over 0.060 but nobody actually checks...so go ahead and use them...it might give you an advantage...you're (Amyers) saying that's okay? Because at the time the USBC assumed they met the standard? That ridiculous. A baseball player can't use a bat with a metal core...because the wood bats tested 2 years earlier met the specs...before they added the metal core.

The facts are:
1) Motiv made a non-compliant product.
2) Two relatively unknown Motiv pro staff bowlers won major titles throwing those balls.

I'm 79% sure, Motiv didn't know and their athletes didn't know. That means, it's a non-issue. BUT....the PBA needs to investigate this. They can't just sit back and say, "Oh....that's a USBC problem....it doesn't matter." It sends multiple wrong messages...not the least of which is the PBA is SO irrelevant....they won't even bother to comment or even make an "effort".

Does the PBA have an "investigative arm"....of course not. So...?? It's okay to cheat? I mean, there's no investigative arm...so, what can the PBA do right? So, yeah...use whatever...as long as the ball manufacturer pays their equipment PBA dues...that's all that matters. If Bob Smushkin (made up bowler) wins with a ball determined after the fact to be 0.5" greater in diameter than the allowable....oh well.

And that's fine...just don't whine about not being in the Olympics. If the integrity of the game is so flimsy and unimportant...just accept the reality that the PBA is nothing more than a fee collection agency that couldn't care less. And from now on...every bowler that wins a major title gets an (*) because they bowl in the "we don't care about equipment era" where pros routinely use non-compliant equipment with no consequences.

Everyone wants to blame Radical. That's like blaming an opposing baseball team for reporting that a batter is using pine tar or a pitcher is using vasoline or a hockey player has a non-conforming stick or a Nascar driver has too high a spoiler. So now it's the whistle-blower that is in the wrong?? I personally think it's sad...beyond sad...PATHETIC that the USBC has to rely on other companies to do their compliance testing...that's whats sad.

Let em do nothing. I dare the PBA to do nothing and say nothing. I'm not going to double-dog-dare them...because then they have to stay quiet....per the rules of double-dog-daring. But I dare them to do nothing. They'll end up with press they absolutely don't want...scandal...incompetence....intentional....fr aud...willfully...etc... Words they don't want to hear and don't want to read. Staying AHEAD of it...means controlling the narrative....and shame on them for not knowing this.

[scottymoney]

From an article on the matter on Jeff Richgels 11thFrame.com website (3/15/16)....

"Most notable to fall under that category are Faulkner and Fach, who both used the JACKAL CARNAGE in winning their major titles.

PBA CEO and Commissioner Tom Clark said in an exchange of messages Tuesday that anything won by any player throwing the JACKAL or JACKAL CARNAGE in PBA competition prior to Tuesday would not be impacted by the USBC ruling.

“They were approved at the time,” Clark said.

But the balls are illegal now and will be removed from the PBA truck, he added.

“It has been rewarding seeing MOTIV grow,” Clark said. “The people involved with the company are first class and I am sure they will do everything they can to make things right for their customers.”

As a competitor, I view anyone who used the balls before Tuesday as innocent victims of a sort as they had no way of knowing what they were using might have been illegal — I say “might have been” because without USBC detailing its tests we have no way of knowing what percentage of JACKALs and JACKAL CARNAGEs might have been illegal.

For all we know at this point, the balls thrown by Faulkner and Fach might have been 0.060 or even less."

There you go Aslan, you can stop the hunt you were on. They took the USBC road which I think is the most obvious and expected.

also in the same article Jeff writes "Others, including MOTIV competitor Storm, believe that bowlers who own the balls should continue to be able to use them. I am working on a follow-up story explaining the science of RG, differential, etc. in great detail and it includes Storm's official position and reasoning on why it think its competitor is being punished too harshly."

[NewToBowling]

I guess the bigger issue is why aren't balls checked prior to tournaments. I understand you can't do it for all tournaments but surely for the Majors you should check ALL balls prior.

Everyone seems to have been asleep at the wheel.

[Amyers]

This is part of the problem with bowling...you and others respond to stuff like this with a "who cares" mentality. Well, I guess nobody cares...and thus you have a sport that is no longer relevant.

You can't have it both ways. You can't want bowling to be more popular, and then apologize for the PBA or USBC when they miss an opportunity to make bowling relevant.

If it doesn't matter...it doesn't matter...and neither does bowling. ESPN airs bowling on it's network...not one mention of this story. If the ONE network...that would benefit from mentioning bowling...doesn't....even in the rare times where there is a "story"...then that speaks volumes about the decline of bowling.

Personally I don't believe that their was any advantage to a .010 differential or less. Nor do I think it's a story from the PBA perspective. So you're correct I don't care. If you told me they were throwing matches due to betting or using steroids or some other way of altering the balls significantly I would find myself more outraged but since the differences wouldn't make a real world difference I'm not upset about it. The only reason I'm supportive of what the USBC did in removing the balls from competition is that their has to be a line somewhere but I wouldn't have been upset if they had just fined Motiv a bunch of money and grandfather the balls in either. They didn't have that option as 16k is the max and that wouldn't be enough to discourage future bad actions.

So, you're saying that if Motiv knew, and told Fach and Falkner that the Jackal and Jackal Carnage were over 0.060 but nobody actually checks...so go ahead and use them...it might give you an advantage...you're (Amyers) saying that's okay? Because at the time the USBC assumed they met the standard? That ridiculous. A baseball player can't use a bat with a metal core...because the wood bats tested 2 years earlier met the specs...before they added the metal core.

I don't think that happened for one but to use your analogy with baseball bats if we found out that the bat manufacturer had trees that were to hard in a couple of batches of bats at the end of the season would they go back and replay those games? I doubt it. Would they remove those numbers from the players career totals? No way. They didn't even do that for steroids which we know made for inflated numbers.

The facts are:
1) Motiv made a non-compliant product.
2) Two relatively unknown Motiv pro staff bowlers won major titles throwing those balls.

I'm 79% sure, Motiv didn't know and their athletes didn't know. That means, it's a non-issue. BUT....the PBA needs to investigate this. They can't just sit back and say, "Oh....that's a USBC problem....it doesn't matter." It sends multiple wrong messages...not the least of which is the PBA is SO irrelevant....they won't even bother to comment or even make an "effort".

Does the PBA have an "investigative arm"....of course not. So...?? It's okay to cheat? I mean, there's no investigative arm...so, what can the PBA do right? So, yeah...use whatever...as long as the ball manufacturer pays their equipment PBA dues...that's all that matters. If Bob Smushkin (made up bowler) wins with a ball determined after the fact to be 0.5" greater in diameter than the allowable....oh well.

And that's fine...just don't whine about not being in the Olympics. If the integrity of the game is so flimsy and unimportant...just accept the reality that the PBA is nothing more than a fee collection agency that couldn't care less. And from now on...every bowler that wins a major title gets an (*) because they bowl in the "we don't care about equipment era" where pros routinely use non-compliant equipment with no consequences.

Everyone wants to blame Radical. That's like blaming an opposing baseball team for reporting that a batter is using pine tar or a pitcher is using vasoline or a hockey player has a non-conforming stick or a Nascar driver has too high a spoiler. So now it's the whistle-blower that is in the wrong?? I personally think it's sad...beyond sad...PATHETIC that the USBC has to rely on other companies to do their compliance testing...that's whats sad.

I do agree that it is "Sad" I also believe that for the $12 dollars a year we pay to the national sanctioning body It doesn't surprise me that there isn't a robust testing program. As far a Radical goes with it I'm not mad nor have I posted that I was. Personally I find very funny.

Let em do nothing. I dare the PBA to do nothing and say nothing. I'm not going to double-dog-dare them...because then they have to stay quiet....per the rules of double-dog-daring. But I dare them to do nothing. They'll end up with press they absolutely don't want...scandal...incompetence....intentional....fr aud...willfully...etc... Words they don't want to hear and don't want to read. Staying AHEAD of it...means controlling the narrative....and shame on them for not knowing this.

My comments are in Red

[Aslan]

Scotty...you're missing the point.

That "exchange" was not a public statement nor position. For all we know, it may not have even happened. The PBA needs to make a "statement".

Second, that "exchange", completely misses the mark in my opinion. It comes off as the PBA essentially saying EXACTLY what I would warn them not to say...essentially:

"...yeah....it's a USBC testing thing....it's no big deal...the athletes probably didn't know...and we love Motiv because they pay their dues on time." In other words, "Nothing to see here...pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."

Shame on the PBA. And shame on "Motivators" who are too caught up in their brand loyalty to ask a company and an organization to step up. No, Jackal owners should not ever...ever be able to throw those balls in sanctioned USBC play....ever. And Motiv should come out and either admit they knew, or give a statement under penalty of purgury...that they did not know, their atheletes did not know, and the problem leading to the incident has been corrected." Nothing less is acceptable from them....no matter how much they pay the PBA or how many motivators whine.

Step up PBA. Do your little rubber stamp investigation...release your findings...and ensure the public that you at LEAST care. No interview statements or heresay...put your big boy pants on and do your job. If Motiv threatens to quit the PBA...tell them good luck with that...they can join the ranks of Lane Masters and Seismic and Lane #1 and Pyramid....all brands that roughly 250 people have heard of. 900Global left for one year and came back with their tail between their legs....realizing rather quickly that the few people willing to buy 900Global before they left...shrinks to virtually nobody once you're not PBA relevant anymore.

Both organizations can silence the doubters...and make this all go away...by just stepping up and either admitting they knew and apologizing (Motiv) or making a clear statement they didn't know....AND the issue has been resolved. I'm not asking the PBA to do anything that any other pro sports organization would do minimally. Even women's basketball would come out with some type of statement and do some minimal investigation. Shame on the PBA.

And there's no article or set of data on "differential" that changes any of this...at ALL. There's a standard....it wasn't met. It doesn't how stupid or outdated the standard is. If it's ridiculous...remove it. If it's not...it applies. That part of the argument is so simple that the USBC HAD to do what they did....even though I'm pretty sure they didn't want to. I'm sick of hearing how steroids don't help a batter hit a ball. There are rules, follow them. It's pretty simple.

[Amyers]

I guess the bigger issue is why aren't balls checked prior to tournaments. I understand you can't do it for all tournaments but surely for the Majors you should check ALL balls prior.

Everyone seems to have been asleep at the wheel.

The problem with this is not everyone who wins a PBA title is treated like Belmo or Rash. The small guys who occasionally work their way up onto the tour often aren't even sponsored they don't have a drill truck and aren't throwing all brand new equipment. They are throwing equipment that's already drilled you can't test the differential after the ball is drilled up. So unless your going to make every competitor only use freshly drilled balls for every tournament on the tour it's a no go. This would make players who bowl mainly because they love the game not for the few measly dollars on the tour even farther in the hole.

[Aslan]

I already proposed how they could check.

Maximum diff = 0.060.

Most radical drilling layout increases diff to 0.080 (hypothetical).

Post drilling diff. must be < 0.080 (hypothetical).

Problem solved. Every ball used goes through the test and there are penalties for violations. I guarantee it solves the problem. Bowlers can easily and cheaply test their equipment pre-tournament...the big ball manufacturers will do it in their vans and booths for their athletes almost ensuring a 100% pass rate.

[scottymoney]

Nevermind then......... I gave you exactly what the PBA had to say about it. Not sure what else you would like to hear. That is what Clark said, so that is what the PBA had to say. They basically follow the USBC as far as those regulations are concerned so why should they waste time in investigating it themselves.

[vdubtx]

https://media.giphy.com/media/wSU1U3h1PFFsc/giphy.gif

[Mike White]

I already proposed how they could check.

Maximum diff = 0.060.

Most radical drilling layout increases diff to 0.080 (hypothetical).

Post drilling diff. must be < 0.080 (hypothetical).

Problem solved. Every ball used goes through the test and there are penalties for violations. I guarantee it solves the problem. Bowlers can easily and cheaply test their equipment pre-tournament...the big ball manufacturers will do it in their vans and booths for their athletes almost ensuring a 100% pass rate.

What you don't realize is testing for RG is a time consuming task.

So unless you has a large number of people conducting the tests, you are going to take HOURS to test the balls used in each squad.

In the video a large part of measuring the RG is edited out because it's either waiting for the ball to slowly rotate, or is repeating the process to average the results.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2wKCSRw3WA

[Mike White]

My comments are in Red

On thing to note. Ball manufacturers have to pay for balls submitted for approval.

It's not funded by the $12 coming from the members.

[jab5325]

I'm just proud to say that I started a 10 page thread.http://www.bowlingboards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=141338

[Mike White]

I'm just proud to say that I started a 10 page thread.http://www.bowlingboards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=141338

Don't be too proud, Aslan exceeds 10 pages when containing only one post.

[bowl1820]

I'm just proud to say that I started a 10 page thread.http://www.bowlingboards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=141338

Another forum has you beat though, 12 pages with 239 replies

[vdubtx]

Another forum has you beat though, 12 pages with 239 replies

Yea, that thread is a good one. Has been a good discussion over there.

One person in particular has it in for the USBC so quite a few posts regarding that and what he felt they should have done.

[bowl1820]

Yea, that thread is a good one. Has been a good discussion over there.

One person in particular has it in for the USBC so quite a few posts regarding that and what he felt they should have done.

Oh yeah, I think the thread is on the verge of getting out of hand. Amazingly the threads on facebook have slowed and stopped for the most part.

Most of them just took it in stride and it's done, now their just sitting back thinking about what ball they want to get to replace them.

[Mike White]

Another forum has you beat though, 12 pages with 239 replies


Not bowling related, but we had a 24 page thread with 9 months worth of on topic conversation. (Dec '06 thru Sep '07)


The topic was a fast computer algorithm to calculate the poker value of each possible 7 card hand.

My contributions were under the name mykey1961.

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=8513906

[Amyers]

On thing to note. Ball manufacturers have to pay for balls submitted for approval.

It's not funded by the $12 coming from the members.

That is true for the balls submitted for approval. How it works if they select balls for random testing I have no idea but the money to purchase them would come from somewhere.

[Mike White]

That is true for the balls submitted for approval. How it works if they select balls for random testing I have no idea but the money to purchase them would come from somewhere.

If you were in the business of testing balls, knowing that in the future you are also going to be doing random testing, wouldn't you budget into your original fee the cost of random testing.

Now it the balls fail random testing, you will be taking a risk of purchasing a larger sample, but if those also fail, you can recoup your costs plus more by levying a fine on the manufacturer of say $16,000.

[Aslan]

I find it odd that on the Facebook page and other forums...it's considered a "good discussion" to bash the USBC for enforcing a rule. Yet if I ask the PBA or Motiv to step up and do something...it's beating a dead horse. I understand that sentiment from Motiv-lovers...and the USBC is easy to hate since God Forbid you have to pay them $21 a year for membership and they no longer give you gold and diamond rings for doing something that is fairly routine nowadays....but c'mon.

If I were a conspiracy theorist...which I'm not...one would "wonder"...

....how does a relatively unknown bowler...make TV 4 times and win a major title averaging 18 pins higher than he ever has? Hmmmm....

....why is it that no publication...except for a couple minor papers...have even mentioned it...and it's almost impossible to find content...and ESPN...nothing? Hmmm....

...after getting destroyed by Storm and DV8 in major titles in 2015...suddenly they finish #1 and #2 in the final major of the year? Hmmm....

...I wonder...if the Falkner bowling in the White House on March 4th...I wonder if politically it would be better if there wasn't a question about his title? Hmmm....

...and what about the rest of Motiv's staff? Patrick Girard made match play 8 times in 13 tourneys...a feat he's never come close to since his peak in 2006-2007. And Ronnie Russell, in my opinion their most talented bowler...12 tv finalsand 2 titles in two years....double his total for the entire decade before that. Hmmmm...

As Arsenio Hall would say; "things that make ya say hmmm"
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/d4/4d/a7/d44da7016b9b18fad04935eb076c313e.jpg

Oh well...something interesting and unprecedented happened in the sport of bowling last week....now, lets get back to recommending the RotoGrip Haywire for everyone looking for an addition to their arsenal and talking about Donald Trump.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/7c/a7/9b/7ca79b33291b46b4129db7f56c10d773.jpg

Besides....this is at least 2 pages shorter than Iceman's post about the Aliens working with the FDA to poison us. Just sayin.

[Amyers]

If you were in the business of testing balls, knowing that in the future you are also going to be doing random testing, wouldn't you budget into your original fee the cost of random testing.

Now it the balls fail random testing, you will be taking a risk of purchasing a larger sample, but if those also fail, you can recoup your costs plus more by levying a fine on the manufacturer of say $16,000.

Most likely correct. My simple point is that it's very simple to expect a lot. Its very difficult to provide a lot for $12 a month. I'm sure we can raise the fee the manufactures pay for ball testing the usbc can hire additional ball testers and we can now pay $200 instead of $179 per ball but I'll sleep better at nigh knowing the person bowling beside me doesn't have .001 more differential than I do

[Amyers]

I find it odd that on the Facebook page and other forums...it's considered a "good discussion" to bash the USBC for enforcing a rule. Yet if I ask the PBA or Motiv to step up and do something...it's beating a dead horse. I understand that sentiment from Motiv-lovers...and the USBC is easy to hate since God Forbid you have to pay them $21 a year for membership and they no longer give you gold and diamond rings for doing something that is fairly routine nowadays....but c'mon.

If I were a conspiracy theorist...which I'm not...one would "wonder"...

....how does a relatively unknown bowler...make TV 4 times and win a major title averaging 18 pins higher than he ever has? Hmmmm....

....why is it that no publication...except for a couple minor papers...have even mentioned it...and it's almost impossible to find content...and ESPN...nothing? Hmmm....

...after getting destroyed by Storm and DV8 in major titles in 2015...suddenly they finish #1 and #2 in the final major of the year? Hmmm....

...I wonder...if the Falkner bowling in the White House on March 4th...I wonder if politically it would be better if there wasn't a question about his title? Hmmm....

...and what about the rest of Motiv's staff? Patrick Girard made match play 8 times in 13 tourneys...a feat he's never come close to since his peak in 2006-2007. And Ronnie Russell, in my opinion their most talented bowler...12 tv finalsand 2 titles in two years....double his total for the entire decade before that. Hmmmm...

As Arsenio Hall would say; "things that make ya say hmmm"
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/d4/4d/a7/d44da7016b9b18fad04935eb076c313e.jpg

Oh well...something interesting and unprecedented happened in the sport of bowling last week....now, lets get back to recommending the RotoGrip Haywire for everyone looking for an addition to their arsenal and talking about Donald Trump.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/7c/a7/9b/7ca79b33291b46b4129db7f56c10d773.jpg

Besides....this is at least 2 pages shorter than Iceman's post about the Aliens working with the FDA to poison us. Just sayin.

The USBC haters and the guys expecting free drilling have been bashed on those sites too.

I just don't understand the point of what you want.

Fact: the pba doesn't have standards for balls they use USBC
Fact: the balls were legal during the competition
Fact: the balls are no longer legal
fact: the diffrence in the legal ball and the ball used is so small that it's a non factor

So now you want the PBA to annoy one of thier few major sponsors and embarrass one of the few good stories in bowling Gary Faulkiners trip to the White House with some "scandal" because maybe some equipment could have had a difference in it so small that it made no difference whatsoever in the out come. I've never owned a Motiv ball and Ben I think that's insane.

[Mike White]

Most likely correct. My simple point is that it's very simple to expect a lot. Its very difficult to provide a lot for $12 a month. I'm sure we can raise the fee the manufactures pay for ball testing the usbc can hire additional ball testers and we can now pay $200 instead of $179 per ball but I'll sleep better at nigh knowing the person bowling beside me doesn't have .001 more differential than I do

$12 a month?????

Unless I happen to shoot 800+ series this season, there isn't a damn thing I'm going to get for my $12.

BTW there is no rule that states the bowler beside you can't have .001 more differential than you do.

I guess that means you're going to need some sleeping pills.

I have 3 balls that together didn't add up to $179, and I score quite well with them.

If you're worried about the price of bowling balls, stop buying expensive balls.

If enough people do this, the manufactures and proprietors would get the message.

Stop the madness, take back the sport, accept lower scores, knowing that if you got beat, your opponent actually threw the ball better that night, not bought the latest miracle ball, or knows some inside information about the oil pattern.

Bowling was strong back when to get better, your money went to practice, not to equipment manufacturers.

And the proprietors benefited by more practice lineage, and a lower monthly lane dressing bill.

[Amyers]

$12 a month?????

Unless I happen to shoot 800+ series this season, there isn't a damn thing I'm going to get for my $12.

BTW there is no rule that states the bowler beside you can't have .001 more differential than you do.

I guess that means you're going to need some sleeping pills.

I have 3 balls that together didn't add up to $179, and I score quite well with them.

If you're worried about the price of bowling balls, stop buying expensive balls.

If enough people do this, the manufactures and proprietors would get the message.

Stop the madness, take back the sport, accept lower scores, knowing that if you got beat, your opponent actually threw the ball better that night, not bought the latest miracle ball, or knows some inside information about the oil pattern.

Bowling was strong back when to get better, your money went to practice, not to equipment manufacturers.

And the proprietors benefited by more practice lineage, and a lower monthly lane dressing bill.

Mike I don't disagree with you on some of your points here and I wasn't advocating for or against anything your talking about in your post. I've seen some of your post that are intelligent, thoughtful, and helpful unfortunately I've also seen you act like a vindictive a$$ clown. If you don't have a point regarding what I'm posting don't bother to respond.

I'm a huge fan of tougher patterns, I do use modern balls but I don't feel the need to buy the biggest hook monster I can, and I certainly don't think that a ball will cure any of my ills bowling wise. You knew exactly the point I was making referring to the differential in the Motiv balls.

I personally don't care if you like the USBC or what the fees were or the price of a bowling ball I was referring only to the fact that the current fee structure would change if the USBC decided to partake in more stringent testing than is currently done and you knew and know that I'm correct.

I have no problem being corrected if I'm giving bad advice or offering items that are factual incorrect but If your not going to use any of that knowledge for anything besides belaboring points in a useless fashion maybe you should put yourself back on double secret probation or wherever the crap you've been.

[Aslan]

The USBC haters and the guys expecting free drilling have been bashed on those sites too.

I just don't understand the point of what you want.

Fact: the pba doesn't have standards for balls they use USBC
Fact: the balls were legal during the competition
Fact: the balls are no longer legal
fact: the diffrence in the legal ball and the ball used is so small that it's a non factor

So now you want the PBA to annoy one of thier few major sponsors and embarrass one of the few good stories in bowling Gary Faulkiners trip to the White House with some "scandal" because maybe some equipment could have had a difference in it so small that it made no difference whatsoever in the out come. I've never owned a Motiv ball and Ben I think that's insane.

Mike...your points are valid...but I ask you to entertain THIS:

Why was Bill Clinton almost impeached? Why was Martha Stewart sent to prison?

The issue wasn't what they DID...it's that they lied about it.

The USBC did their job. Yes. But they waited to do their job until a competitor forced them to....then "relucatantly" agreed to do it...and "reluctantly" enforced their rule.

The RULE...is not in question. You and 10 billion other people can disagree that differential is worth anything...and you're probably right. But you're essentially making the "steroids don't make it easier to hit a baseball" argument. Or Pete Rose didn't bet on his own team argument. The rules are the rules. You don't like the rules....change the rules. If you do a right turn on a red light...where it's posted that you can't do a right turn on a red light...you may be able to claim it was 3:30AM and there was nobody near the intersection....but the cop is probably still writing you a ticket. Why do we not allow drivers to use car pool lanes between 11PM and 4AM...when there is no traffic congestion? It makes no sense....but it's the rule.

The question is...does it MATTER if Motiv KNEW....and Falkner KNEW....that their balls were outside the specifications? You and most others seem to just assume they didn't....yet Motiv never said that...and as far as we know, their athletes have not been asked. And as far as we know, the PBA isn't investigating it. Does it matter if they "knew"? I think it does. I think it matters very, very much.

And this garbage excuse that you and others use...that the PBA or USBC doesn't want to annoy their gravy train...that's no excuse. Either the game has integrity or it doesn't. Either it's a sport, or it's entertainment. If the NFL decided not to enforce rules on the Saints post Hurricane Katrina or on the Patriots because they're the most popular team...there would be outrage! The PBA has no right to brush this under the rug because they don't want to upset Motiv or because it will make Falkner look bad. In my opinion, they have a duty to the sport...to ensure fair play, honesty, integrity, and enforce rules. If they start allowing some companies to cheat or some players to cheat...then where does that leave the sport?

So lets look at the outstanding items/facts:
- Motiv has never made a public statement that they had no previous knowledge of the non-compliant balls.
- Motiv has not specified how this error occurred nor what they are doing to ensure it doesn't occur in the future.
- No Motiv athlete has made any statements that they did not know or did know.
- The USBC, in their public statement, never mentioned that they "reluctantly" tested the balls sent to them.
- No party, person, nor entity has taken responsibility for sending those balls to the USBC.
- The PBA has not made any public statement, other than a phone interview with a bowler with a blog, that they have investigated this matter.
- The PBA has not made any statement indicating they have questioned and Motiv athletes.
- The PBA has not made any statement indicating they approve or disapprove of the manufacturers sending balls to the USBC to be tested.
- The PBA has made no public statement that they have investigated Motiv's quality control issues and are satisfied with Motiv's new standards to avoid this in the future.

The reason this is STILL an issue...is because of the overwhelming unresolved questions. It's not what has been SAID...it's what has NOT been said.

Personally, I feel there's a 2% chance the athletes knew. I have NOTHING against Motiv athletes or Gary Falkner Jr. personally. But to not even ask the question? To just brush it under the rug because it "looks bad" to question the 2nd black PBA major title holder that recently visited the White House? Shame on the PBA for even hesitating for that reason. Now, I think there's a much higher % chance...that Motiv KNEW. I'd say...19% chance they knew. Still, 5-1 odds...I'm more than 80% sure they didn't know and it's just a quality control issue...no bigee. But there's a 1 in 5 chance...that they KNEW. They violated the rules, they knew about it, and they did nothing. And the most damn ing evidence is....they never denied that they knew.

Think about that...if you made bowling balls...we'll call them the MWhites. And one day, Amyers sends in a box of your balls to be tested and they come back out of spec and you get a call from the USBC. When you release a statement to your customers....aren't you going to include something to the effect, "We had no idea this problem existed until the USBC informed us and we are taking every step possible to improve our quality control and engineering systems to eliminate any chance of this happening in the future"? Why didn't Motiv claim they didn't know? If you get pulled over for having a busted tail light...and you didn't know...aren't ya gonna respond to the officer, "Dang it! I had no idea!" Or are you going to sit there calm, cool, collective and just say..."Yeah."

I know everyone wants me to be quiet and think I'm being a nutjob conspiracy theorist...but does it matter if they KNEW? Does it matter? Does it MATTER if Falkner KNEW he was throwing equipment that exceeded specifications? Does it MATTER if Motiv intentionally submitted balls with a lower differential to the USBC than what they later manufactured? Does it MATTER if the PBA KNOWS...and are intentionally hiding the facts for political reasons? Eveyone except me...is ASSUMING...that Motiv made a mistake...nobody knew...it's irrelevant anyway....the matter is closed. But, would you feel the same if they KNEW? Has bowling fallen so far...that we don't even care?

[Amyers]

Mike...your points are valid...but I ask you to entertain THIS:

Why was Bill Clinton almost impeached? Why was Martha Stewart sent to prison?

The issue wasn't what they DID...it's that they lied about it.

The USBC did their job. Yes. But they waited to do their job until a competitor forced them to....then "relucatantly" agreed to do it...and "reluctantly" enforced their rule.

The RULE...is not in question. You and 10 billion other people can disagree that differential is worth anything...and you're probably right. But you're essentially making the "steroids don't make it easier to hit a baseball" argument. Or Pete Rose didn't bet on his own team argument. The rules are the rules. You don't like the rules....change the rules. If you do a right turn on a red light...where it's posted that you can't do a right turn on a red light...you may be able to claim it was 3:30AM and there was nobody near the intersection....but the cop is probably still writing you a ticket. Why do we not allow drivers to use car pool lanes between 11PM and 4AM...when there is no traffic congestion? It makes no sense....but it's the rule.

The question is...does it MATTER if Motiv KNEW....and Falkner KNEW....that their balls were outside the specifications? You and most others seem to just assume they didn't....yet Motiv never said that...and as far as we know, their athletes have not been asked. And as far as we know, the PBA isn't investigating it. Does it matter if they "knew"? I think it does. I think it matters very, very much.

And this garbage excuse that you and others use...that the PBA or USBC doesn't want to annoy their gravy train...that's no excuse. Either the game has integrity or it doesn't. Either it's a sport, or it's entertainment. If the NFL decided not to enforce rules on the Saints post Hurricane Katrina or on the Patriots because they're the most popular team...there would be outrage! The PBA has no right to brush this under the rug because they don't want to upset Motiv or because it will make Falkner look bad. In my opinion, they have a duty to the sport...to ensure fair play, honesty, integrity, and enforce rules. If they start allowing some companies to cheat or some players to cheat...then where does that leave the sport?

So lets look at the outstanding items/facts:
- Motiv has never made a public statement that they had no previous knowledge of the non-compliant balls.
- Motiv has not specified how this error occurred nor what they are doing to ensure it doesn't occur in the future.
- No Motiv athlete has made any statements that they did not know or did know.
- The USBC, in their public statement, never mentioned that they "reluctantly" tested the balls sent to them.
- No party, person, nor entity has taken responsibility for sending those balls to the USBC.
- The PBA has not made any public statement, other than a phone interview with a bowler with a blog, that they have investigated this matter.
- The PBA has not made any statement indicating they have questioned and Motiv athletes.
- The PBA has not made any statement indicating they approve or disapprove of the manufacturers sending balls to the USBC to be tested.
- The PBA has made no public statement that they have investigated Motiv's quality control issues and are satisfied with Motiv's new standards to avoid this in the future.

The reason this is STILL an issue...is because of the overwhelming unresolved questions. It's not what has been SAID...it's what has NOT been said.

Personally, I feel there's a 2% chance the athletes knew. I have NOTHING against Motiv athletes or Gary Falkner Jr. personally. But to not even ask the question? To just brush it under the rug because it "looks bad" to question the 2nd black PBA major title holder that recently visited the White House? Shame on the PBA for even hesitating for that reason. Now, I think there's a much higher % chance...that Motiv KNEW. I'd say...19% chance they knew. Still, 5-1 odds...I'm more than 80% sure they didn't know and it's just a quality control issue...no bigee. But there's a 1 in 5 chance...that they KNEW. They violated the rules, they knew about it, and they did nothing. And the most damn ing evidence is....they never denied that they knew.

Think about that...if you made bowling balls...we'll call them the MWhites. And one day, Amyers sends in a box of your balls to be tested and they come back out of spec and you get a call from the USBC. When you release a statement to your customers....aren't you going to include something to the effect, "We had no idea this problem existed until the USBC informed us and we are taking every step possible to improve our quality control and engineering systems to eliminate any chance of this happening in the future"? Why didn't Motiv claim they didn't know? If you get pulled over for having a busted tail light...and you didn't know...aren't ya gonna respond to the officer, "Dang it! I had no idea!" Or are you going to sit there calm, cool, collective and just say..."Yeah."

I know everyone wants me to be quiet and think I'm being a nutjob conspiracy theorist...but does it matter if they KNEW? Does it matter? Does it MATTER if Falkner KNEW he was throwing equipment that exceeded specifications? Does it MATTER if Motiv intentionally submitted balls with a lower differential to the USBC than what they later manufactured? Does it MATTER if the PBA KNOWS...and are intentionally hiding the facts for political reasons? Eveyone except me...is ASSUMING...that Motiv made a mistake...nobody knew...it's irrelevant anyway....the matter is closed. But, would you feel the same if they KNEW? Has bowling fallen so far...that we don't even care?

Here the thing with the ball even if Gary and the other bowlers knew that the balls were outside USBC specs that didn't make them illegal for PBA competition. The PBA doesn't have rules for balls only that they have to be on the USBC's approved list. My guess is Motiv did know. If your going to make a ball that is right against the spec limit then surely you are testing some percentage unless you just don't believe anyone will ever check which might be possible. If Motiv knew then my guess would be the players did too.

It would be my guess that there is a manufacturing tolerance for every ball and if a tour pro wants a ball a certain way on either side of the tolerance he can get it. I've heard enough conversations from older former tour players to know that having balls marked with different color pins and other markers for them because there was some difference in the balls wasn't uncommon in the 70's and 80's. I seriously doubt that has changed. My guess would be if Gary knew and wanted a ball on the high side of the diff variance he could have had it and this isn't just a Motiv thing I'm sure Storm and Brunswick do the same things maybe even more as they have larger tour budgets.

As you've mentioned in the past these guys are good enough they can throw anything and score with it. The thought that they had something would be more beneficial to them than any few points in variance of the core specs ever would.

[Aslan]

So Amyers...correct me if I'm wrong...but you're saying...

Motiv probably knew....and their athletes probably knew....but it's still not a big deal?

Realize that in the area of "The Law"....there is a HUGE difference between "Willful" and "Accidental". HUGE difference. One you get probation or a 2-3 year jail sentence...might just be a misdemeanor. One is 5 years to life and a possible death sentence depending on the crime.

I may be wrong here...but I would be shocked and saddened if all the people share your opinion...that it's perfectly fine for a company to violate USBC/PBA rules; knowingly and willfully. That may be the final nail in the coffin in terms of bowling being considered a "sport"....or it ever being considered for Olympic competition. :(

[Amyers]

So Amyers...correct me if I'm wrong...but you're saying...

Motiv probably knew....and their athletes probably knew....but it's still not a big deal?

Realize that in the area of "The Law"....there is a HUGE difference between "Willful" and "Accidental". HUGE difference. One you get probation or a 2-3 year jail sentence...might just be a misdemeanor. One is 5 years to life and a possible death sentence depending on the crime.

I may be wrong here...but I would be shocked and saddened if all the people share your opinion...that it's perfectly fine for a company to violate USBC/PBA rules; knowingly and willfully. That may be the final nail in the coffin in terms of bowling being considered a "sport"....or it ever being considered for Olympic competition. :(

The problem with your assumptions is that it is against PBA rules. The PBA doesn't have any rules for undrilled differential only that the ball has to be "USBC Approved" at the time they bowled it was so no matter what it was legal then because it was on the approved list now it's not so the ball is no longer legal.

If you really want you mind blown the Raptor Talon made by Motiv is still on the approved list has the same core. The Jackal Pro and Jackal Sapphire (both overseas balls) have the same core still on the approved list. So if they wanted to tomorrow a PBA player could use one of those balls at the next tournament.

This kind of stuff goes on in every sport it's no different than refrigerating the baseballs at Coors Field or the old Celtics Arena where the wires that supported the baskets were right next to the seats and the fans could jerk on them when the opposite team was shooting free throws. I don't consider it to be at the level of Baseballs amphetamine problem that went on for thirty years. Read some books on baseball from the 40's - 80's where they talk about being bowls of "greenies" in open sight in the club house.

[Aslan]

The problem with your assumptions is that it is against PBA rules. The PBA doesn't have any rules for undrilled differential only that the ball has to be "USBC Approved" at the time they bowled it was so no matter what it was legal then because it was on the approved list now it's not so the ball is no longer legal.

So again...what you're saying....is it is perfectly legal and acceptable to a player to cheat...so long as technically the USBC doesn't find out until afterwards?

Your logic is;
- Company cheated (per USBC specifications)
- Player knowingly used companies products.
- Company exposed.
- Player claims it was fine because the company wasn't exposed before he used the products.

Imagine it isn't bowling. Because, apparently cheating in bowling is okay. Imagine it's...baseball.

Louisville Slugger makes a bat. They submit it to the MLB for approval and it's tested and approved. Lousiville slugger then drills out the middle and puts in lead weights. They ship it to Barry Bonds and tell him to use this bat, it contains lead weights and will make it hit the ball farther. Barry knows that is not legal. Lousiville Slugger says not to worry about it, baseball never checks.

Barry uses said bat and hits 6HRs in one game, clinching a playoff berth for the Giants. After the game, the other team asks the bat approval lab to test his bat...they test it...find out it contains lead weights. The testing lab delists it as "approved". Lousiville Slugger simply states they will recall all of those bats that have lead weights in them and replace them with solid wood bats.

Do you think the MLB would simply release a statement saying, "Yeah...it sucks for the Dodgers fans...but technically the testing lab said the bat was approved...all be it without the weights added....and Louisville Slugger is a good organization and so are the Giants."?? The HRs count, the record counts, the Giants make the playoffs, and it's all "OK" because even though the cheating was intentional by both the company and the player...it wasn't discovered until after the fact?

Why is this "OK" in bowling and not in any other major sport?

IF Motiv knew...and Falkner knew...his title should be voided and given to Ciminelli and Cimminelli would have an almost lock-tight civil case to claim the difference between 1st place and 2nd place money.

I still find it curious though....you honestly think that it was okay...even IF...Motiv and Falkner knew?? That's a balsy stance, I must admit. I mean, in criminal court...you are absolutely right. The lawyer for Motiv/Falkner could argue that since the ball was technically legal, even though they knew it probably wasn't, they at worst committed fraud and to prove that "beyond a reasonable doubt" would be difficult without concrete evidence that Motiv informed Falkner the ball was definitely out of spec....illegal, etc... But in CIVIL preceedings...they'd lose automatically...wouldn't even need the expense of a trial. In that case, they defrauded Ryan Ciminelli and the PBA fans by knowingly cheating and violating USBC guidelines that govern equipment specifications. Motiv could be on the hook, in a civil trial, for thousands of dollars owned to other competitors who did not cash but were close to the cash line. They'd owe punitive damages. They'd owe the PBA fans compensatory damages. Pro shops could be entitled to money. Civil cases can get very, very expensive. Ask OJ Simpson....he skirted the double murder charge...but lost in civil court easily and owed more money than he was worth.

Somebody asked what I want. IF Motiv admitted they knew. And IF their athletes admitted they knew. I would hope the PBA would suspend Motiv and fine them. I would say a fair settlement would be a 2-year suspension for Motiv from PBA competition. As far as the fine, I think that could be...maybe 2 million with 1 million going to the PBA and the other million being divided among the competitors in 2014-2016. The PBA could use their million to continue to sponsor events Motiv was supposed to sponsor in 2016-2017.

But see...that's why "whether they knew" is so important. It's the difference between a minor quality control issue that results in an inconvenience to Jackal owners and a slap on the wrist USBC fine...versus...a civil liability case that could cost Motiv twice what they plan to shell out in recall costs. Will it happen? Probably not. Proving that a company knew or that the athletes knew is difficult. It would take a credible whistle-blower. And since the PBA isn't interested in pursuing this, it would take DV8 and Ryan Cimminelli bringing a suit against them...which given the weakness of Brunswick right now....is doubtful.

[Mike White]

Mike...your points are valid...but I ask you to entertain THIS:

Why was Bill Clinton almost impeached? Why was Martha Stewart sent to prison?

The issue wasn't what they DID...it's that they lied about it.



The congress tried to impeach Clinton because in Washington, it's one party vs the other.

The real issue with the impeachment process is people in congress who called for the impeachment where just as guilty of the same "crime" as Clinton.

As for Martha Stewart, she was sent to prison due to insider trading.

If she hadn't done that crime they wouldn't have been asking her the kind of questions she decided to lie about.

So she committed 2 crimes, but was only convicted of one.

Was Al Capone's only crime tax evasion?

Thats all he went to prison for.

[Amyers]

So again...what you're saying....is it is perfectly legal and acceptable to a player to cheat...so long as technically the USBC doesn't find out until afterwards?

Your logic is;
- Company cheated (per USBC specifications)
- Player knowingly used companies products.
- Company exposed.
- Player claims it was fine because the company wasn't exposed before he used the products.

Imagine it isn't bowling. Because, apparently cheating in bowling is okay. Imagine it's...baseball.

Louisville Slugger makes a bat. They submit it to the MLB for approval and it's tested and approved. Lousiville slugger then drills out the middle and puts in lead weights. They ship it to Barry Bonds and tell him to use this bat, it contains lead weights and will make it hit the ball farther. Barry knows that is not legal. Lousiville Slugger says not to worry about it, baseball never checks.

Barry uses said bat and hits 6HRs in one game, clinching a playoff berth for the Giants. After the game, the other team asks the bat approval lab to test his bat...they test it...find out it contains lead weights. The testing lab delists it as "approved". Lousiville Slugger simply states they will recall all of those bats that have lead weights in them and replace them with solid wood bats.

Do you think the MLB would simply release a statement saying, "Yeah...it sucks for the Dodgers fans...but technically the testing lab said the bat was approved...all be it without the weights added....and Louisville Slugger is a good organization and so are the Giants."?? The HRs count, the record counts, the Giants make the playoffs, and it's all "OK" because even though the cheating was intentional by both the company and the player...it wasn't discovered until after the fact?

Why is this "OK" in bowling and not in any other major sport?

IF Motiv knew...and Falkner knew...his title should be voided and given to Ciminelli and Cimminelli would have an almost lock-tight civil case to claim the difference between 1st place and 2nd place money.

I still find it curious though....you honestly think that it was okay...even IF...Motiv and Falkner knew?? That's a balsy stance, I must admit. I mean, in criminal court...you are absolutely right. The lawyer for Motiv/Falkner could argue that since the ball was technically legal, even though they knew it probably wasn't, they at worst committed fraud and to prove that "beyond a reasonable doubt" would be difficult without concrete evidence that Motiv informed Falkner the ball was definitely out of spec....illegal, etc... But in CIVIL preceedings...they'd lose automatically...wouldn't even need the expense of a trial. In that case, they defrauded Ryan Ciminelli and the PBA fans by knowingly cheating and violating USBC guidelines that govern equipment specifications. Motiv could be on the hook, in a civil trial, for thousands of dollars owned to other competitors who did not cash but were close to the cash line. They'd owe punitive damages. They'd owe the PBA fans compensatory damages. Pro shops could be entitled to money. Civil cases can get very, very expensive. Ask OJ Simpson....he skirted the double murder charge...but lost in civil court easily and owed more money than he was worth.

Somebody asked what I want. IF Motiv admitted they knew. And IF their athletes admitted they knew. I would hope the PBA would suspend Motiv and fine them. I would say a fair settlement would be a 2-year suspension for Motiv from PBA competition. As far as the fine, I think that could be...maybe 2 million with 1 million going to the PBA and the other million being divided among the competitors in 2014-2016. The PBA could use their million to continue to sponsor events Motiv was supposed to sponsor in 2016-2017.

But see...that's why "whether they knew" is so important. It's the difference between a minor quality control issue that results in an inconvenience to Jackal owners and a slap on the wrist USBC fine...versus...a civil liability case that could cost Motiv twice what they plan to shell out in recall costs. Will it happen? Probably not. Proving that a company knew or that the athletes knew is difficult. It would take a credible whistle-blower. And since the PBA isn't interested in pursuing this, it would take DV8 and Ryan Cimminelli bringing a suit against them...which given the weakness of Brunswick right now....is doubtful.

The diffrence between baseball and bowling is that baseball has specifications for its bats that cover such items as you mentioned. The PBA does not have a specification for undrilled differential. Also in the case of baseball if you get caught with a corked bat they don't replay the games, take the home runs from his official stats, or change the winner and losers from the games he played in. The worst that happens is he gets fined and/or suspended.

Truth is you don't know that Ciminelli's equipment was any more legal than Falkner's was or wasn't because there are no guidelines or testing for this stuff.

You can't fine Motiv for breaking rules that don't exist. Neither can Brunswick sue motiv/Falkner for breaking rules or misrepresenting a rule that doesn't exist.

[Aslan]

Wow.

I have a feeling...Amyers...you may find out you're entirely incorrect. I'm still hopeful the PBA responds to my e-mail. I'm also hopeful that if they don't, and I make a couple calls to Motiv and the USBC that they can clarify things a little better than in their press releases. But if not, and some newspapers get interested in this story...given the potential political implications and it being an election year and all...I have an erie feeling that "intent" is going to play a very key role in this discussion.

I'm still amazed that you, and probably others, think that if an equipment manufacturer purposely intends to break rules...that is just 'part of the game'. I can almost 99.998% guarantee you...that the general public will not agree. Intent in the legal system is a massively important factor. And in the court of public opinion...it is a just as crucial factor. I know others have decided this is a 'dead horse' issue...some because they really want it to be...some because they believe I'm just following in Iceman's footsteps as the resident conspiracy theorist...but I wouldn't close this chapter just yet. There are too many unanswered questions and too many people trying very hard to 'forget'....and that is usually a recipe for scandal.

The question is..."Is bowling, the most popular sport in terms of participation in the United States, important enough that the general public will care?" That I don't know. Obviously, the public could care less about differentials and Motiv....probably only 2% of the population even knows those two things exist. But people tend to care about more general concepts like "cheating" and "scandal" and "cover-ups" and "incompetence" and "fairness". People can relate to those concepts.

I agree with you...if there was no knowledge or intent...this is a non-issue. Fach and Falkner and Tackett used equipment that they believed was approved for use by the USBC and PBA. There is no issue. BUT....if there was intent...if Motiv KNEW...and their athletes KNEW...then I disagree with you completely. If they knew...they acted with 'intent'...another way to say it is, ironically, they had "MOTIVe". That makes if fraud. And given these tournaments were held outside of Michigan, it means it's a federal case because the fraud crossed state lines.

And ALL of this suspicion...because of an omission from Motiv's public statement. Why didn't they say that they were unaware of the problem? Why didn't the PBA investigate? Or did they? An internet guy like me...posting in forums...I probably can't get to the bottom of something like this. All I can do is try to be fair and ask the questions and give the organizations a chance to respond. If they don't, it's going to take "real" investigators and people asking questions that have actual 'status'....newspaper folks, etc... And that's why the visit to the white house may be the "feel good story" that actually ignites the blaze....in a political climate like our's....in the US....where we spend millions to investigate Benghazi and worry about private e-mail servers...where a fairly large % of the country really, really dislike the President who is in office...I just think there's a LOT of conservative news folks that could care less about bowling....or the USBC...or Motiv...or differentials...but they would travel to the ends of the Earth if they thought they could embarrass the administration. It's a "perfect storm"...and Falkner may be a completely innocent victim. But, it's a "tangled web we weave..."

[Amyers]

Wow.

I have a feeling...Amyers...you may find out you're entirely incorrect. I'm still hopeful the PBA responds to my e-mail. I'm also hopeful that if they don't, and I make a couple calls to Motiv and the USBC that they can clarify things a little better than in their press releases. But if not, and some newspapers get interested in this story...given the potential political implications and it being an election year and all...I have an erie feeling that "intent" is going to play a very key role in this discussion.

I'm still amazed that you, and probably others, think that if an equipment manufacturer purposely intends to break rules...that is just 'part of the game'. I can almost 99.998% guarantee you...that the general public will not agree. Intent in the legal system is a massively important factor. And in the court of public opinion...it is a just as crucial factor. I know others have decided this is a 'dead horse' issue...some because they really want it to be...some because they believe I'm just following in Iceman's footsteps as the resident conspiracy theorist...but I wouldn't close this chapter just yet. There are too many unanswered questions and too many people trying very hard to 'forget'....and that is usually a recipe for scandal.

The question is..."Is bowling, the most popular sport in terms of participation in the United States, important enough that the general public will care?" That I don't know. Obviously, the public could care less about differentials and Motiv....probably only 2% of the population even knows those two things exist. But people tend to care about more general concepts like "cheating" and "scandal" and "cover-ups" and "incompetence" and "fairness". People can relate to those concepts.

I agree with you...if there was no knowledge or intent...this is a non-issue. Fach and Falkner and Tackett used equipment that they believed was approved for use by the USBC and PBA. There is no issue. BUT....if there was intent...if Motiv KNEW...and their athletes KNEW...then I disagree with you completely. If they knew...they acted with 'intent'...another way to say it is, ironically, they had "MOTIVe". That makes if fraud. And given these tournaments were held outside of Michigan, it means it's a federal case because the fraud crossed state lines.

And ALL of this suspicion...because of an omission from Motiv's public statement. Why didn't they say that they were unaware of the problem? Why didn't the PBA investigate? Or did they? An internet guy like me...posting in forums...I probably can't get to the bottom of something like this. All I can do is try to be fair and ask the questions and give the organizations a chance to respond. If they don't, it's going to take "real" investigators and people asking questions that have actual 'status'....newspaper folks, etc... And that's why the visit to the white house may be the "feel good story" that actually ignites the blaze....in a political climate like our's....in the US....where we spend millions to investigate Benghazi and worry about private e-mail servers...where a fairly large % of the country really, really dislike the President who is in office...I just think there's a LOT of conservative news folks that could care less about bowling....or the USBC...or Motiv...or differentials...but they would travel to the ends of the Earth if they thought they could embarrass the administration. It's a "perfect storm"...and Falkner may be a completely innocent victim. But, it's a "tangled web we weave..."

I still don't think you get it. On the PBA side their can be no "Intent" as you say because their is no rule. There has to be a rule to have intent of breaking such rule. Now on the USBC side yes their could possibly be legal fallout by not paying for drilling fees if they choose not to but even with this they can fall back on the fact that it's normal industry practice and most likely not enough money to get anybody real interested. That's why they agreed to exchange the balls their was a rule broken there and a now unusable product sold.

This is why their is no "intent", "cheating", "scandal" or anything else going on the PBA side because their simply isn't a rule against it. As I said earlier even right now they could go pull a Raptor Talon out of their bag with the exact same core in it as the Jackal win a tournament and not have broken a rule because that ball is still on the approved list.

[Aslan]

I still don't think you get it. On the PBA side their can be no "Intent" as you say because their is no rule. There has to be a rule to have intent of breaking such rule....This is why their is no "intent", "cheating", "scandal" or anything else going on the PBA side because their simply isn't a rule against it.

That's incorrect. There is a rule.

12.1 Code of Ethics. Members shall conduct themselves at all times in a manner commensurate with
the PBA Code of Ethics. The title "Professional Bowler" must be and at all times remain synonymous with
honor, service and fair dealing. Integrity, fidelity to the sport of bowling and a sense of great responsibility
to employers, employees, manufacturers, clients and other professionals should transcend all thought of
material gain in the motives of the true professional bowler. The conduct of each member must always be
in keeping with this ongoing standard. If at any time PBA officials have reason to believe that a member is
acting in violation of the PBA Code of Ethics, disciplinary action will be taken.

12.2.2 Failure to Meet Obligations. Any member failing to promptly meet his or her
membership or PBA contractual obligations or otherwise acting in a manner that is reasonably likely to
injure the reputation and standing of the PBA and/or its members.

11.1 General. It is the player's responsibility to make sure all bowling balls used in PBA competition
are cleared for use by the PBA and meet all PBA specifications.

12.2.3 PBA Rules Violations. Any member who violates PBA Rules and Regulations may be
subject to a code of ethics violations if the circumstances warrant.

Now, here's where it gets tricky....and this is why "intent" is so important. The PBA has a huge rulebook...but nowhere in it does it mention specifically that the differential has to be < 0.060. Why? Well, one reason is that can't be measured once the ball is drilled. So, Amyers...this is where you are correct. Fach and Falkner didn't violate PBA bowling ball specifications per their rulebook.

But....did Ray Rice violate the NFL rulebook when he punched his girlfriend in the elevator of a Vegas hotel? No. The NFL doesn't regulate the punching of girlfriends. But it does regulate conduct. If Fach and Falkner and Tackett didn't KNOW...there is no issue of "conduct" and thus there is no reasonable guilt on their part. But...if they KNEW...then is knowingly cheating by using a ball known to be outside the specifications of the body designated with the function of approving bowling balls (the USBC)...does that constitute a violation of the PBA Code of Conduct?

And where the PBA is going to struggle with this...is the vast majority of their rules and codes...are just nonsensical rules about jerseys and logos. Strictly adhering to their code of conduct...PDW could get drunk after an event and slap his wife in public...but he's more likely to violate a rule if the jersey he had on had a logo in the wrong spot. The rulebook is vastly more concerned about sponsors and logos and how to pay dues than it is about actual cheating or misconduct. That's why they have that general statement:

If at any time PBA officials have reason to believe that a member is
acting in violation of the PBA Code of Ethics, disciplinary action will be taken.

If Motiv knew...and their athletes knew...then the PBA is bound by it's own Code of Ethics to take disciplinary action. If they don't, they have a legal problem. What if DV8 sues? Right now, DV8 might be able to sue Motiv in a civil case and win. A case against the USBC would probably not happen...even though a case could be made that they didn't do their due diligence and it took DV8 submitting the balls to force their hand. But that's a tougher case. The PBA....however; if they knew that Motiv knew....and that the athletes knew...and the PBA doesn't enforce it's own code of conduct...or even worse!...decides to punish DV8 for reporting the problem...the PBA becomes an accomplice to Motiv's actions and are thus partially liable.

You can't make a rule against everything...that's why almost every organization has code of conducts. This website has a "code of conduct"....because if they didn't...it would be impossible to fairly enforce rules because you'd have to have a rule for EVERYTHING. The PBA is bound by their code of conduct to investigate this matter. If they do not....they take on the legal responsibility.

I think I told this story before....but I used to be on another non-bowling website for like 3 years. I was controversial, as you might expect. The site never "liked" me...but they knew I was popular enough that they couldn't just kick me off for no reason. One day, I was having a conversation with a person on the site and he mentioned a "hitman scenario" and I responded with something like, "Well, give me their contact info...I might have a job or two for them." He then responded that I couldn't afford that. Now, it was just a joke...everyone knew he and I were just joking. But the member who disliked me the most...saw this as an opportunity and reported it to her friend who was the site administrator....who hated me. My account was deleted later that afternoon. The reasoning, was that I violated their Code of Conduct by making threats against other members.

Obviously, I feel I was mistreated...but if I take a step back...I can appreciate WHY they might have chosen to take that action. If they had not...and for some reason I actually DID hire a hitman and do harm to do this person...the website could be sued as part of a civil case. In essence, they did not enforce their Code of Conduct and it contributed in part to the horrible outcome. Now, it's ridiculous...and the people who enforced it just looked at it as a convenient way to get rid of me...but from a LEGAL perspective....it shows why Code of Conducts exist and from time to time, MUST be enforced.

[Mike White]

Now, here's where it gets tricky....and this is why "intent" is so important. The PBA has a huge rulebook...but nowhere in it does it mention specifically that the differential has to be < 0.060. Why? Well, one reason is that can't be measured once the ball is drilled. So, Amyers...this is where you are correct. Fach and Falkner didn't violate PBA bowling ball specifications per their rulebook.

The Why part is completely wrong.

The differential can be measured before, and after drilling.

USBC only has a rule in place about before drilling, which is rather stupid.

The reason USBC has to word the rule this way is because they can't reasonably expect every pro shop to invest in an RG swing, and training to use it, to confirm the post drilling values.

The modern bowling ball has become a cancer to the sport of bowling, and ball manufacturers are bowling's tobacco companies.

[Amyers]

That's incorrect. There is a rule.

12.1 Code of Ethics. Members shall conduct themselves at all times in a manner commensurate with
the PBA Code of Ethics. The title "Professional Bowler" must be and at all times remain synonymous with
honor, service and fair dealing. Integrity, fidelity to the sport of bowling and a sense of great responsibility
to employers, employees, manufacturers, clients and other professionals should transcend all thought of
material gain in the motives of the true professional bowler. The conduct of each member must always be
in keeping with this ongoing standard. If at any time PBA officials have reason to believe that a member is
acting in violation of the PBA Code of Ethics, disciplinary action will be taken.

12.2.2 Failure to Meet Obligations. Any member failing to promptly meet his or her
membership or PBA contractual obligations or otherwise acting in a manner that is reasonably likely to
injure the reputation and standing of the PBA and/or its members.

11.1 General. It is the player's responsibility to make sure all bowling balls used in PBA competition
are cleared for use by the PBA and meet all PBA specifications.

12.2.3 PBA Rules Violations. Any member who violates PBA Rules and Regulations may be
subject to a code of ethics violations if the circumstances warrant.

Now, here's where it gets tricky....and this is why "intent" is so important. The PBA has a huge rulebook...but nowhere in it does it mention specifically that the differential has to be < 0.060. Why? Well, one reason is that can't be measured once the ball is drilled. So, Amyers...this is where you are correct. Fach and Falkner didn't violate PBA bowling ball specifications per their rulebook.

But....did Ray Rice violate the NFL rulebook when he punched his girlfriend in the elevator of a Vegas hotel? No. The NFL doesn't regulate the punching of girlfriends. But it does regulate conduct. If Fach and Falkner and Tackett didn't KNOW...there is no issue of "conduct" and thus there is no reasonable guilt on their part. But...if they KNEW...then is knowingly cheating by using a ball known to be outside the specifications of the body designated with the function of approving bowling balls (the USBC)...does that constitute a violation of the PBA Code of Conduct?

And where the PBA is going to struggle with this...is the vast majority of their rules and codes...are just nonsensical rules about jerseys and logos. Strictly adhering to their code of conduct...PDW could get drunk after an event and slap his wife in public...but he's more likely to violate a rule if the jersey he had on had a logo in the wrong spot. The rulebook is vastly more concerned about sponsors and logos and how to pay dues than it is about actual cheating or misconduct. That's why they have that general statement:

If at any time PBA officials have reason to believe that a member is
acting in violation of the PBA Code of Ethics, disciplinary action will be taken.

If Motiv knew...and their athletes knew...then the PBA is bound by it's own Code of Ethics to take disciplinary action. If they don't, they have a legal problem. What if DV8 sues? Right now, DV8 might be able to sue Motiv in a civil case and win. A case against the USBC would probably not happen...even though a case could be made that they didn't do their due diligence and it took DV8 submitting the balls to force their hand. But that's a tougher case. The PBA....however; if they knew that Motiv knew....and that the athletes knew...and the PBA doesn't enforce it's own code of conduct...or even worse!...decides to punish DV8 for reporting the problem...the PBA becomes an accomplice to Motiv's actions and are thus partially liable.

You can't make a rule against everything...that's why almost every organization has code of conducts. This website has a "code of conduct"....because if they didn't...it would be impossible to fairly enforce rules because you'd have to have a rule for EVERYTHING. The PBA is bound by their code of conduct to investigate this matter. If they do not....they take on the legal responsibility.

I think I told this story before....but I used to be on another non-bowling website for like 3 years. I was controversial, as you might expect. The site never "liked" me...but they knew I was popular enough that they couldn't just kick me off for no reason. One day, I was having a conversation with a person on the site and he mentioned a "hitman scenario" and I responded with something like, "Well, give me their contact info...I might have a job or two for them." He then responded that I couldn't afford that. Now, it was just a joke...everyone knew he and I were just joking. But the member who disliked me the most...saw this as an opportunity and reported it to her friend who was the site administrator....who hated me. My account was deleted later that afternoon. The reasoning, was that I violated their Code of Conduct by making threats against other members.

Obviously, I feel I was mistreated...but if I take a step back...I can appreciate WHY they might have chosen to take that action. If they had not...and for some reason I actually DID hire a hitman and do harm to do this person...the website could be sued as part of a civil case. In essence, they did not enforce their Code of Conduct and it contributed in part to the horrible outcome. Now, it's ridiculous...and the people who enforced it just looked at it as a convenient way to get rid of me...but from a LEGAL perspective....it shows why Code of Conducts exist and from time to time, MUST be enforced.

You are grasping at straws. The PBA has no interest in causing themselves bad publicity. Especially since there is no simple way to prove that ball Falkner used was illegal and pretty much everyone knows that a small variance in differential makes no real world difference. Why would they want to go down that road? The PBA has no dog in this fight which is why you are hearing very little from them on the issue.

[Aslan]

You are grasping at straws.
Ray Rice and Tom Brady agree with you.


The PBA has no interest in causing themselves bad publicity.
If THATs the reasoning the PBA is using, they better dig in for a fight. I'm sure Bill Clinton originally lied about Monica for the same "bad publicity" reason. As it turns out...the publicity will be much worse after the fact than it ever would have been had they dealt with it immediately.


Especially since there is no simple way to prove that ball Falkner used was illegal
If the PBA is asking my advice, it would be to assemble all Motiv sponsored athletes and give them one chance to come clean. If they do, and they admit they knew the balls were out of spec, they receive immunity from suspension. They receive a minor fine and could lose any titles they won...but no suspension. If they choose not to, and it's found out later that they knew...they are banned indefinitely from the PBA and will face legal prosecution.

I can almost guarantee they will either admit it...or if they don't, it'll probably be because they are telling the truth. If one knows, they all probably know. And a guy that has no title to give up is not going to risk their PBA future just to save Motiv or Fach or Falkner.



and pretty much everyone knows that a small variance in differential makes no real world difference.
Again, in the "Amyers Rulebook"...apparently the athletes and manufacturers get to decide what rules they follow and what rules they don't based on their perceptions of what matters or doesn't matter. Granted, no other sport would allow that....ask Tom Brady.


Why would they want to go down that road?
They don't....which is why they've yet to release a statement. They are hoping the USBC and Motiv will cut a deal and DV8 will get a "not so nice warning" to stop causing trouble...and in 2 months nobody will even remember this.


The PBA has no dog in this fight which is why you are hearing very little from them on the issue.
They perceive they have no dog in the fight. I would caution them that they are wrong. If it is found that there was intent, and the news gets wind of it...and the political pundants get wind of a black bowler, who won a title fraudulently, then visited the White House (despite that being unusual)...and they dig a little deeper...and a little deeper...pretty soon you have a "STORY". And that "story" is going to paint Motiv as cheating businessmen and their athletes as cheaters and the USBC as incompetent and DV8 as vindictive and the PBA as an accomplice to fraud. Victims will emerge out of the woodwork....Motiv athletes claiming they didn't know, Ciminelli claiming he didn't know what DV8 did...pro shop owners claiming they either knew or didn't know...and Motiv lovers claiming they were betrayed and demanding damages. Tournament venues claiming they were lied to...officials claiming the PBA tried to "quiet them"...Representative Cohen (TN) claiming his office had no idea and was shocked to learn about the scandal. The White House press secretary reminding the public that the President didn't even know and wasn't even at the White House...while conservative activists claim Falkner only got the invite because he was black.

ALL of that....ALL of that because the PBA assumes they "don't have a dog in the fight". It's happened before...many industries, many corporations, many officials...all sit back and hope it "isn't a big deal" or will "just go away on it's own". Watergate happened that way. A minor break-in...no bigee. And it led to the resignation of a President.

I'm not trying to "sensationalize" this. I have NO DOG in this fight. I don't want Motiv to suffer and I respect them for what they've accomplished. I have no beef with any Motiv athlete nor am I a DV8 or Ryan Cimminelli fan (nor can I spell his name properly). I just want the truth. And I want the PBA to stop writing rules about logos and how to collect their dues....stop trying to change the sport to a fancy new scoring system...stop having stupid things like "The League" and "Celebrity Showdowns"...and DO THEIR JOB...investigate the matter...and reassure us in the bowling public that they CARE. Not sit back in some softball interview with an industry slappy like Richgels...and answer softball questions praising Motiv. Motiv cheated. The PBA needs to investigate to ensure it's athletes were not cheated and no code of conduct was violated. If they don't, someone else will.

The PBA has the opportunity to "control the narrative". If they don't, then people like me control the narrative. And eventually, they start getting phone calls from people like me....which they ignore. And people like me, good or bad, hate one thing more than anything...to be ignored. So we find people who won't ignore us...and those people, eventually, find a "story". And when that happens, the PBA no longer has the ability to "control the narrative". And that's when we finally get to the truth.

The only question is...."Is bowling important enough for anyone to care?" Thus far...I'm hearing, "no". I have a sneaking suspicion...that "no" becomes a "yes"...eventually. But THAT is where I have the highest likelihood of being "wrong"....bowling just might no be important enough for the general public to care. Not with March Madness going on and Donald Trump and suicide bombings in Europe. But..we'll see... I know I'm not going to stop asking questions until I get answers. I may be wrong, but I refuse to be ignored. If the PBA owners think that because they bought the league, they own the sport...they're wrong. They shoulda bought a horse or boat or a race car instead.

[vdubtx]

I'm not trying to "sensationalize" this. I have NO DOG in this fight.

Yet, you keep wanting to argue. SMH.

[NewToBowling]

Look, a dead horse

[Amyers]

Aslan no matter how long your post is you can't have a lawsuit or a suspension or revoke a title when there is no rule and no proof that anyone broke the rule you want to invent.

Any of the Motiv guys could wear a sign around there neck saying my ball has a underlined differential of .7 and the PBA can do nothing. It's not against PBA rules.

By the way how did that Tom Brady thing work out for the NFL. They may eventually win after losing the first time but in the publics eye the NFL already lost.

[Mike White]

Aslan no matter how long your post is you can't have a lawsuit or a suspension or revoke a title when there is no rule and no proof that anyone broke the rule you want to invent.

Any of the Motiv guys could wear a sign around there neck saying my ball has a underlined differential of .7 and the PBA can do nothing. It's not against PBA rules.

By the way how did that Tom Brady thing work out for the NFL. They may eventually win after losing the first time but in the publics eye the NFL already lost.

Somewhere in the rules it talked about the PBA acknowledging that the USBC was the governing body, but that was more related to having to be in good standing with the USBC to be eligible for the PBA not specifically about ball specs.

So it depends on how encompassing you want to go with the USBC being the governing body.

As far as I can tell, PBA uses a subset of what is allowed in USBC bowling.

i.e. if PBA isn't paid, you can't use the product in the PBA, but you can in the USBC.

[Aslan]

Okay. Agree to disagree.

I just think it's sad that when a manufacturer cheats and gets caught, the majority of this site just:

1) Blames the USBC for enforcing their rules.
2) Blames Radical or DV8 for reporting it.
3) Is perfectly fine if the cheating led to major titles being won.
4) Doesn't believe the PBA should care either way.
5) Doesn't care if it was intentional or if the athletes knew.
6) Think it's a minor issue.

It's just further evidence that bowling has lost so much prestige and status that, a PBA bowler would have to strip down nude, do cocaine on a National telecast, and punch a crippled kid before the general public would even go, "What? What happened at that bowling thing?" And that's the question at the heart of this...what's worse? That Motiv and possibly their athletes cheated? Or that nobody at the end of the day really cares? :(

[vdubtx]

Okay. Agree to disagree.

I just think it's sad that when a manufacturer cheats and gets caught, the majority of this site just:

1) Blames the USBC for enforcing their rules.
2) Blames Radical or DV8 for reporting it.
3) Is perfectly fine if the cheating led to major titles being won.
4) Doesn't believe the PBA should care either way.
5) Doesn't care if it was intentional or if the athletes knew.
6) Think it's a minor issue.

It's just further evidence that bowling has lost so much prestige and status that, a PBA bowler would have to strip down nude, do cocaine on a National telecast, and punch a crippled kid before the general public would even go, "What? What happened at that bowling thing?" And that's the question at the heart of this...what's worse? That Motiv and possibly their athletes cheated? Or that nobody at the end of the day really cares? :(

I don't think anyone but you thinks that Motiv cheated.
They had a manufacturing process that wasn't checked along the way and it made cores that were not exact to their original specs.

[Amyers]

I'm done with this too but I don't blame the USBC. I do wish they could have just fined Motiv 500k and grandfathered the balls but it's not in the rule book that way.

I don't blame whoever reported it personally if it's a competitor I find that funny

I just don't believe that 1. The increased differential had any effect on play. 2. That there are not other people playing fast and lose with the equipment that makes much more difference than a little differential.

Thier is no way to win here for the PBA so they did the right thing

All sports have things like this and way worse nor sure why you think the PBA is some bastion of integrity. I guess the PGA is the closest to this and I still figure most of the younger guys are on something.

I don't necessarily have to like it but I do have to live in reality.

[Aslan]

I just don't believe that 2. That there are not other people playing fast and lose with the equipment that makes much more difference than a little differential.
Not disagreeing Amyers...but why have rules and codes of conducts if the expectation is that everyone cheats and who cares? At what point does cheating actually cross the line in your mind? I feel like I've backed you in a corner...so much so that you've stated even the players knew and Motiv knew...you still don't think anything is wrong. You've tried so hard to win this argument, that you are now essentially stating:
1) Bowling ball companies all cheat and that's fine.
2) Bowlers all cheat and that's fine.
3) The PBA has no integrity and there is no expectation that they should have any.

I disagree, with all due respect, to all 3 of those premises.


I don't think anyone but you thinks that Motiv cheated.
They had a manufacturing process that wasn't checked along the way and it made cores that were not exact to their original specs.

I assume the same thing VDub...but I'm open-minded enough to recognize that there is a 'chance' your assumption is incorrect. You and others have decided to assume that Motiv had a slight manufacturing and quality control issue and didn't know until they read USBC's decision on Bowl.com. Yet;

A) They never denied knowing.
B) Their athletes have not been investigated nor denied knowing.
C) Motiv did not say anything in their original press release or subsequent press releases that they did not know, it wasn't intentional, nor that they are taking steps to ensure it doesn't happen again.

For some reason, most of the site's 'assumptions' are treated as fact...with no evidence to support them...yet my 'theories'....are treated as disruptive and beating a dead horse. Some, like Amyers and others, even go so far as to say they don't care if Motiv or their athletes knew or didn't know....intentional or accidental...doesn't matter. Do you (VDub) share that opinion? In other words, if your assumption is incorrect...and the deviation was intentional...and the athletes knew...does that change your opinion?

Hey, to each their own. I'm just making conversation. I hope I receive a response from the PBA by this weekend clarifying some things....but I doubt I will. At that point, I'll dig a little deeper...probably won't find anything...and the issue will be dead. I have a feeling in the meantime, Motiv and the PBA will arm twist the USBC into a settlement. And I have a feeling the PBA has already scolded DV8/Radical for starting this in the first place. In two months, it'll be forgotten and everyone will be using Jackals again...and I even think the USBC will change their rules and get rid of the 0.060 differential requirement. But we'll see. Once the newspaper folks start sniffing around...they might find something, they might not.

But just for my own curiosity....this question is for Amyers and VDub...but anyone else still stopping in, please comment as well:

"What would make YOU, personally, change your mind about this story?" In other words, VDub thinks it was a minor Quality Control issue. Amyers doesn't care if the company did it intentionally. So, what would change your mind? If next week, I show you 'X document' that shows 'X thing happened'....what would those be to make you move from your current camp/position to the "Aslan camp" of at least being 'interested' in getting more facts/details? Where is that line for YOU?

[vdubtx]

But just for my own curiosity....this question is for Amyers and VDub...but anyone else still stopping in, please comment as well:

"What would make YOU, personally, change your mind about this story?" In other words, VDub thinks it was a minor Quality Control issue. Amyers doesn't care if the company did it intentionally. So, what would change your mind? If next week, I show you 'X document' that shows 'X thing happened'....what would those be to make you move from your current camp/position to the "Aslan camp" of at least being 'interested' in getting more facts/details? Where is that line for YOU?

I would have 'X feelings' about it all. :D

[Aslan]

well, no response from the PBA to my e-mail.

On to Phase II. Last night I drafted letters to the USBC, PBA, Brunswick, and Motiv. I was going to put it on really cool letterhead of my new investigation company...which had a really cool logo and slogan...but after giving it some thought...and doing some internet research...I didn't want to do anything that would remotely lead to some type of mail fraud investigation. Technically, since I'm not asking for anything of any value...there'd really be no legal standing...but the definitions related to "misrepresentation" are extremely loose and vague....so, might as well just write it myself. I'll give them a couple weeks to respond before moving to Phase III.

Technically, I'm not sure if there is a Phase IV. I'm sure by then I'll have lost interest.

[Tony]

well, no response from the PBA to my e-mail.

On to Phase II. Last night I drafted letters to the USBC, PBA, Brunswick, and Motiv. I was going to put it on really cool letterhead of my new investigation company...which had a really cool logo and slogan...but after giving it some thought...and doing some internet research...I didn't want to do anything that would remotely lead to some type of mail fraud investigation. Technically, since I'm not asking for anything of any value...there'd really be no legal standing...but the definitions related to "misrepresentation" are extremely loose and vague....so, might as well just write it myself. I'll give them a couple weeks to respond before moving to Phase III.

Technically, I'm not sure if there is a Phase IV. I'm sure by then I'll have lost interest.

Seems everyone else lost interest a while ago, I would think you would have better things to do than plan strategy for this .....tilting at windmills.

[fordman1]

I have been asking around and could find no one who owned one. So put it to bed.

[RobLV1]

I'm still hearing about it non stop from a couple of bowlers with whom I bowl pot games. They are totally up in arms and are demanding that Motiv replace their balls right NOW. I asked one of them if he knew what the Differential is. He replied that it's some little thing in the core. ROFLMAO!

[jab5325]

I'm still hearing about it non stop from a couple of bowlers with whom I bowl pot games. They are totally up in arms and are demanding that Motiv replace their balls right NOW. I asked one of them if he knew what the Differential is. He replied that it's some little thing in the core. ROFLMAO!

If I had one of these balls, I'd be demanding an immediate replacement or refund too.

Despite initial pleasantries, Motiv isn't handling this well.

[dan moyer]

differential means nothing to me i'm not a ball designer i know only one thing i paid for a usbc approved ball and now it isn't motiv owes me one that is or my money back.

[Mike White]

I'm still hearing about it non stop from a couple of bowlers with whom I bowl pot games. They are totally up in arms and are demanding that Motiv replace their balls right NOW. I asked one of them if he knew what the Differential is. He replied that it's some little thing in the core. ROFLMAO!

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

You've produced more than your share of ROFLMAO(able) comments.

[Aslan]

I guess; 3 things:

1) MW...stop picking on Rob.

2) Either we have a rule or we don't.

3) Most conspiracy theories are people in tinfoil hats with way too much spare time...but most major conspiracies were exposed despite many people early on trying discourage people from 'wasting their time'.

On #2; I'm tired in bowling and in real life with a society having rules but being too gutless to change said rules...so they just decide not to enforce them. There are a pleothra of examples in politics and society not limited to prostitution and immigration. If you think it's mean to keep people out of the country...change the law and open the border. But if you think we need a border and shouldn't just let everyone in...then enforce the law. I don't agree with "The Donald" on "deporatation squads"...but he's hit a nerve with the country by simply pointing out..."either we have a border or we don't. either we have a law, or we don't"

Prostitution is the same thing. If I was tasked with finding 10 prostitutes in the next 6 hours...I probably could do it in less than 40 minutes. And it's not rocket science. Obviously, the police aren't concerned with it. And that's fine. But...if you think it's such a minor thing...decriminalize it. Either you have a rule or you don't. If you have some antiquated civil war era law that a woman who commits adultery should be fed to an crocodile...change the law. Otherwise, enforce it. Our politicians are cowards...they don't want to actually do their jobs...so they just decide on a case by case basis what to enforce and what not to enforce.

In the case of the USBC....there is a rule. That rule has a limit...just like blood alcohol levels. If you think 0.08 blood alcohol is too low a threshold...change the law. Otherwise...maybe don't do shots right before you leave the bar. The argument people are making about differential is the same argument drunks and drug addicts make when they get caught driving under the influence. That the limit is too low...they drive better when they are buzzed....etc... Do you think the cop listens to that and goes, "hmm..ya know...I'm not really sure how much of an effect alcohol has on this person's ability to drive safely...so I think I'll let him go. I mean, who's to say alcohol impairs him? He's a big guy." That NEVER happens. Because there is a rule...and that rule is enforced. It doesn't matter whether you know what differential means....it doesn't matter what effect it has on the ball...it DOESN'T MATTER. Motiv knew the rule. Motiv violated the rule. The USBC had to enforce the rule or risk a serious legal liability from other ball manufacturers and risk that none of their rules would be followed. If you don't like the rule, lobby to change it. Otherwise, FOLLOW IT.

As to #3;
Watergate was a minor issue. I'm sure many people told the pro-Democrat folks to drop it because it was just nonsense...giving Nixon the benefit of the doubt. Years later, we look at that as one of the biggest Presidential cover-ups of all time and one that led to a rare Presidential resignation. Lots of people want this to go away. Some because they don't care. Some because they don't like the USBC. Some because they LOVE Motiv. Some are Falkner or Fach fans. Some don't like me. Some just get annoyed with the topic. There are lots of reasons people lose interest. And going into this, I was 79% sure it was going to end with 'nothing'...no comments, no changes, just Motiv claiming they made a mistake...paying a slap on the wrist fine....the balls probably being re-instated. But the more I dig...the more questions get asked....the more statements we see from both sides...the odd silence from parties you'd expect to hear from...things just don't add up.

And the PBA and Motiv are to blame. The USBC just enforced a rule...that's all they did. The PBA is burying their head in the sand. And Motiv is running from room to room throwing water on fires. All of this could have been avoided with proper PR (public relations) and (if necessary) a more truthful response from Motiv at the onset. They have only themselves to blame. And I am just a guy who bowls...I doubt they'll respond to my letters. And if they do, I'm sure it'll be a carefully worded repeat of what they've already said. But...when the newspapers finally get past March Madness and Donald Trump and terrorist bombings...when a bored sportswriter at some paper finally comes across this story and decides to look into it...that's when we have a real chance at finding the TRUTH. And I fear by then, it'll be too late for Motiv. They needed to come clean early on...and they didn't...as far as I know. But my initial 21% chance that there is a scandal/conspiracy here...is now closer to 35%. There are things that are just not making sense.

[jab5325]

I guess; 3 things:

1) MW...stop picking on Rob.

2) Either we have a rule or we don't.

3) Most conspiracy theories are people in tinfoil hats with way too much spare time...but most major conspiracies were exposed despite many people early on trying discourage people from 'wasting their time'.

On #2; I'm tired in bowling and in real life with a society having rules but being too gutless to change said rules...so they just decide not to enforce them. There are a pleothra of examples in politics and society not limited to prostitution and immigration. If you think it's mean to keep people out of the country...change the law and open the border. But if you think we need a border and shouldn't just let everyone in...then enforce the law. I don't agree with "The Donald" on "deporatation squads"...but he's hit a nerve with the country by simply pointing out..."either we have a border or we don't. either we have a law, or we don't"

Prostitution is the same thing. If I was tasked with finding 10 prostitutes in the next 6 hours...I probably could do it in less than 40 minutes. And it's not rocket science. Obviously, the police aren't concerned with it. And that's fine. But...if you think it's such a minor thing...decriminalize it. Either you have a rule or you don't. If you have some antiquated civil war era law that a woman who commits adultery should be fed to an crocodile...change the law. Otherwise, enforce it. Our politicians are cowards...they don't want to actually do their jobs...so they just decide on a case by case basis what to enforce and what not to enforce.

In the case of the USBC....there is a rule. That rule has a limit...just like blood alcohol levels. If you think 0.08 blood alcohol is too low a threshold...change the law. Otherwise...maybe don't do shots right before you leave the bar. The argument people are making about differential is the same argument drunks and drug addicts make when they get caught driving under the influence. That the limit is too low...they drive better when they are buzzed....etc... Do you think the cop listens to that and goes, "hmm..ya know...I'm not really sure how much of an effect alcohol has on this person's ability to drive safely...so I think I'll let him go. I mean, who's to say alcohol impairs him? He's a big guy." That NEVER happens. Because there is a rule...and that rule is enforced. It doesn't matter whether you know what differential means....it doesn't matter what effect it has on the ball...it DOESN'T MATTER. Motiv knew the rule. Motiv violated the rule. The USBC had to enforce the rule or risk a serious legal liability from other ball manufacturers and risk that none of their rules would be followed. If you don't like the rule, lobby to change it. Otherwise, FOLLOW IT.

As to #3;
Watergate was a minor issue. I'm sure many people told the pro-Democrat folks to drop it because it was just nonsense...giving Nixon the benefit of the doubt. Years later, we look at that as one of the biggest Presidential cover-ups of all time and one that led to a rare Presidential resignation. Lots of people want this to go away. Some because they don't care. Some because they don't like the USBC. Some because they LOVE Motiv. Some are Falkner or Fach fans. Some don't like me. Some just get annoyed with the topic. There are lots of reasons people lose interest. And going into this, I was 79% sure it was going to end with 'nothing'...no comments, no changes, just Motiv claiming they made a mistake...paying a slap on the wrist fine....the balls probably being re-instated. But the more I dig...the more questions get asked....the more statements we see from both sides...the odd silence from parties you'd expect to hear from...things just don't add up.

And the PBA and Motiv are to blame. The USBC just enforced a rule...that's all they did. The PBA is burying their head in the sand. And Motiv is running from room to room throwing water on fires. All of this could have been avoided with proper PR (public relations) and (if necessary) a more truthful response from Motiv at the onset. They have only themselves to blame. And I am just a guy who bowls...I doubt they'll respond to my letters. And if they do, I'm sure it'll be a carefully worded repeat of what they've already said. But...when the newspapers finally get past March Madness and Donald Trump and terrorist bombings...when a bored sportswriter at some paper finally comes across this story and decides to look into it...that's when we have a real chance at finding the TRUTH. And I fear by then, it'll be too late for Motiv. They needed to come clean early on...and they didn't...as far as I know. But my initial 21% chance that there is a scandal/conspiracy here...is now closer to 35%. There are things that are just not making sense.

Impressive work, Aslan.

You managed to tie Dick Nixon/Watergate, prostitution, Donald Trump, drunk driving, and the PBA/USBC/Motiv fiasco all together in one post.

[Mike White]

I guess; 3 things:

1) MW...stop picking on Rob.



I wasn't picking on Rob other than to point out his hypocrisy.

Imagine how someone new here feels when they don't know what the differential is, and sees Rob ROTFLAMOing at someone else who only knows a little.

Now ask Rob what the differential does to a ball, and he'll get it wrong.

Show we then ROTFLMAO at him?



2) Either we have a rule or we don't.


In the case of the USBC....there is a rule. That rule has a limit...just like blood alcohol levels. If you think 0.08 blood alcohol is too low a threshold...change the law. Otherwise...maybe don't do shots right before you leave the bar. The argument people are making about differential is the same argument drunks and drug addicts make when they get caught driving under the influence. That the limit is too low...they drive better when they are buzzed....etc... Do you think the cop listens to that and goes, "hmm..ya know...I'm not really sure how much of an effect alcohol has on this person's ability to drive safely...so I think I'll let him go. I mean, who's to say alcohol impairs him? He's a big guy." That NEVER happens. Because there is a rule...and that rule is enforced. It doesn't matter whether you know what differential means....it doesn't matter what effect it has on the ball...it DOESN'T MATTER. Motiv knew the rule. Motiv violated the rule. The USBC had to enforce the rule or risk a serious legal liability from other ball manufacturers and risk that none of their rules would be followed. If you don't like the rule, lobby to change it. Otherwise, FOLLOW IT.


The problem with your analogy to blood alcohol is, the law is written in a different way for bowling balls.

It's as if the law said you're not allowed to walk into the bar with a 0.08 BAL, but they aren't testing you as you walk in, they aren't even testing you after stopping you because you were driving erratic.

They are going back to the bar and sample other people entering to determine the average BAL of those people, and if they fail, you get convicted.

[fordman1]

How exactly is the ball measured? What is the measurement? Is it inches, centimeters or weight? Does a machine do it or what?

[Aslan]

Impressive work, Aslan.

You managed to tie Dick Nixon/Watergate, prostitution, Donald Trump, drunk driving, and the PBA/USBC/Motiv fiasco all together in one post.
I aim to please.


Show we then ROTFLMAO at him?
Remember...attack the argument not the person. That's all I'm saying. I certainly have no solid ground to stand on regarding policing of behavior...just a suggestion...take it or leave it.





The problem with your analogy to blood alcohol is, the law is written in a different way for bowling balls.

It's as if the law said you're not allowed to walk into the bar with a 0.08 BAL, but they aren't testing you as you walk in, they aren't even testing you after stopping you because you were driving erratic.

They are going back to the bar and sample other people entering to determine the average BAL of those people, and if they fail, you get convicted.

I don't understand that analogy....other than you saying the standard SHOULD BE a post drilling/pre-event test of differential. The problem is;
1) The USBC doesn't test balls pre-event for non-USBC events.
2) There is not post-drilling standard.
3) This is a ball approval issue...pre-drilled.

The whole reason they field test is the same reason cops test drivers. Sure, I can go into a hospital lab and have then sample my blood for alcohol, it's clean, they give me a certificate that says I can now drive because I met the standard. But, as we are all well aware...I can then go to a bar and CHANGE my blood alcohol level. Motiv submitted samples that passed. Motiv then did SOMETHING or FAILED TO DO SOMETHING that led to them violating the standard. You can't test once and say "good to go" unless the company never manufactures that ball again...because as it is now starting to become clear...a company can knowingly change a ball post-certification.

It's just like emissions testing (for those oy you in poo states that test this). You can go get your car tested, pass, then take your muffler off. But the certificate is only good for 2-3 years...AND police CAN still ticket you if they stop you and feel you've tampered with your exhaust post-inspection.

I hope I'm wrong. I don't want to be right about this!! If Motiv intentionally manufactured balls that violated their USBC approval; and knowingly and willfully defrauded the PBA, it's competitors, and the sport in general....that's terrible news! Motiv is a success story...the little guy that picked up the pieces of a Brunswick factory and saved American jobs while producing innovative and popular products. And they are significant sponsors of the PWBA....which I love to watch more than the PBA National Tour. But until I see how Motiv did this accidentally...and how they plan to ensure it doesn't happen again...and until the PBA investigates this in terms of the two major titles that were stolen...Motiv is done something terrible (in my mind) and has seriously damaged themselves, hurt their customers, hurt their athletes, but more than anything...hurt the sport. And shame on them for that. I wish it wasn't them. I wish it was Storm. But it wasn't.

And this 'mindset' that a rule is only "really a rule" if it can have a major effect on the outcome...then why have rules at all? What other USBC and PBA rules are we going to freely violate because they don't "mean that much"? How about the PBA takes out about 1/4 of their rulebook that has to do with logo usage? How about fining their golden boy Belmo when he violates rules about making noises or throwing towels on other people's equipment? Maybe some lanes can be shorter or longer....maybe some pins made of metal...some a little heavier and some a little lighter. I mean, how much does pin weight really matter? Why not let some balls be bigger than others....ya still gotta hit the pocket right?

Ya don't like the rule...you think differential is silly...lobby to get rid of the spec. I'm sure if enough people as the USBC to increase it to 0.065 or get rid of it altogether...they'll get rid of it. No skin off their backs. But until that's done...it's a rule...follow it.

[bowl1820]

How exactly is the ball measured? What is the measurement? Is it inches, centimeters or weight? Does a machine do it or what?
If your mean how do they measure the differential then..

You need a RG Swing with timing mechanism and electric eye counter, Determinator and a Scale, plus misc items plus the Bowling Ball Radius of Gyration Worksheet which should include calibration information for the RG Swing being used

Here's the steps for do it:

Radius of Gyration (RG) of Asymmetrical Bowling Balls (SOP-BALL-1)
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/SOP-BALL-1%20Asymm%20RG.pdf

Radius of Gyration (RG) of a Symmetrical Bowling Ball (SOP-BALL-2)
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/SOP-BALL-2%20Symm%20RG.pdf

You can see part of the process here


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2wKCSRw3WA

[fordman1]

Thanks 1820 . I still don't understand but I am sure aslan will explain.

[bowl1820]

Thanks 1820 . I still don't understand but I am sure aslan will explain.

Basically the balls were revoked because the Differential was over the limit by 4 thousandths of a inch (about the thickness of a razor blade)

[Mike White]

How exactly is the ball measured? What is the measurement? Is it inches, centimeters or weight? Does a machine do it or what?

Conceptually think of a bowling ball made of many small BB sized pieces of ball material.

The BB's that represent the core would be the most dense, then the coverstock, and finally the filler.

Now one by one pick each of these BB's, weight it to determine the density, and calculate how far from the axis it is located.

Kind of like how far the tire is from the axle, except since the ball is solid, you will have all distances from 0 to 4.277"

If you repositioned all the BBs at the same distance, to achieve the same sum as the solid ball, that distance from the axis is the RG.

The measuring process doesn't cut the ball into BB's obviously so they work the math in reverse.

The ball twisting much like if you sit in a swing and twist clockwise, when you pick for feet up, you swing counter clockwise.

How long it takes to swing one way, then back is directly related to the RG of the object being swung.

So by timing the swing, they can calculate what the RG must be to achieve that rate.

[fordman1]

Thanks gentlemen now I am positive it is silly. Actually that is about the same amount of room I have on the lanes this year.
4 thousandths of a inch.

[vdubtx]

Basically the balls were revoked because the Differential was over the limit by 4 thousandths of a inch (about the thickness of a razor blade)

That was just the average on the orginal Jackal. Jackal Carnage was average .016(or .012 I forget) width of 4 razorblades. :D

Regardless if someone thinks this is silly, there are guidelines the ball manufacturers agreed to go by when the USBC came up with them.

[bowl1820]

That was just the average on the orginal Jackal. Jackal Carnage was average .016(or .012 I forget) width of 4 razorblades. :D


The other way around
Of the purchased samples the average diff. for the Jackal Carnage was .0604 (4 Ten thousandths over the .060 limit).

And for the org. Jackal the average diff. was .0616, so .0016 over.

[fordman1]

Maybe I am confused but isn't .0604 over four / ten-thousandth? Tenths - hundredths - thousandths - ten thousandth.

[bowl1820]

Maybe I am confused but isn't .0604 over four / ten-thousandth? Tenths - hundredths - thousandths - ten thousandth.

Yep your right! Everyones had it wrong in all the posts. Good catch

http://s5.postimg.org/3m3w95htz/Decimal_Places_2016_04_01_11_56_09.jpg

[Mike White]

Remember...attack the argument not the person.

Go back and check your facts.

I "attack" the arguments.

His responses are "You're a stalker", "You really have it out for me", and my favorite, "Well that's what someone else told me".

[fordman1]

1820 Ya even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes.

[Aslan]

Regardless if someone thinks this is silly, there are guidelines the ball manufacturers agreed to go by when the USBC came up with them.

Thank You.

And to all those that think it's silly...good luck explaining to a cop that being .01 over the legal limit isn't really over the limit. The "dumb move" (for lack of using a word that isn't more offensive) was Motiv making a ball with a 0.060 differential...when the MAXIMUM is 0.060. That's like a drunk person drinking enough to blow a 0.08 and then driving. Just because your handheld breathalyzer phone app reads 0.080....ya might not wanna chance it. Motiv played with fire and got burned. It was their fault...nobody else's.

[Mike White]

Thank You.

And to all those that think it's silly...good luck explaining to a cop that being .01 over the legal limit isn't really over the limit. The "dumb move" (for lack of using a word that isn't more offensive) was Motiv making a ball with a 0.060 differential...when the MAXIMUM is 0.060. That's like a drunk person drinking enough to blow a 0.08 and then driving. Just because your handheld breathalyzer phone app reads 0.080....ya might not wanna chance it. Motiv played with fire and got burned. It was their fault...nobody else's.

Being 0.01 over the legal limit is a violation, but being 0.001 over may not net you a ticket depending on the device doing the measurement.

If the device can only display 2 digits right of the decimal place, and internally it calculates your BAL is 0.081, the display is only going to read 0.08.

Since USBC arrives at the differential by measuring the 3 different RG values, you have to look to the accuracy of the device doing the measurement.

The device shown in the Ball Approval Process video includes 2 digit to the right of the decimal.

Since they average over 11 rotations, they can get a 3rd digit.

Remember, when it displays XXX.35, the real more accurate value not displayed could be anywhere between XXX.3450 and XXX.3549

Your output of a calculation can never be more accurate than the input the calculation uses.

It looks like USBC may be trying to squeak more accuracy out of a calculation than it has accuracy going in.

[Mike White]

Thank You.

And to all those that think it's silly...good luck explaining to a cop that being .01 over the legal limit isn't really over the limit. The "dumb move" (for lack of using a word that isn't more offensive) was Motiv making a ball with a 0.060 differential...when the MAXIMUM is 0.060. That's like a drunk person drinking enough to blow a 0.08 and then driving. Just because your handheld breathalyzer phone app reads 0.080....ya might not wanna chance it. Motiv played with fire and got burned. It was their fault...nobody else's.


If Motiv designed the ball to have a 0.0596 differential, with Standard Deviation of 0.002, it would be 95.8 confident that all balls would be in the range of 0.0592 and 0.0600.

If however they wanted to be 99.7% confident they would have to design the ball at 0.0594 so the range would be 0.0588 to 0.0600.

The problem is, 0.0596 can be rounded up to 0.060, which is great for marketing, while 0.0594 gets rounded down to 0.059, which marketing likes a lot less.

So Motiv's error is probably a lot less than what some people claim it to be.

Now on the USBC side, the body who is supposed to protect the integrity of the sport, allows a bowler to compete with ANY differential, and long it is manufactured at or below the 0.060 limit.

If USBC has no limits on differential for drilled ball how exactly are they protecting the integrity of the sport?

As for someone winning a title on the PBA, there is no evidence that the ball in question that was used was manufactured above the 0.060 limit, and even if it was, that bowler getting that ball would be pure chance.

Manufactures deliver balls to the drill truck by crate loads, the bowlers don't go thru the balls weighing each ball to see which can give an unfair advantage.

I'm pretty sure I read comments from someone who drilled on the PBA truck that they went thru as many as 600 balls per event.

[bowl1820]

I'm pretty sure I read comments from someone who drilled on the PBA truck that they went thru as many as 600 balls per event.

Here you go (Could even be higher now):

A Look Inside the PBA’s Mobile Service Trucks
by PBA Editor October 19, 2001

"At the start of the season, we may drill as many as 180 balls per day," Nolan says. "It's busiest after the long break. Players have new balls from the ball companies, or they want to adjust their game before they start competing."

"So we drill an average of 300 balls per week during the tour. We've drilled as many as 600 in one week."

[Aslan]

As for someone winning a title on the PBA, there is no evidence that the ball in question that was used was manufactured above the 0.060 limit, and even if it was, that bowler getting that ball would be pure chance.

ASSUMPTION ALERT!!

So again...that would be true...if Motiv ever said that the differential > USBC specified 0.060 was unintentional....which they have not...despite that logically being the FIRST THING they should have said.

The FIRST THING....not a day later....not after they met with their legal counsel...not after Aslan annoyed them with a letter....but in SENTENCE #1...after the balls' certifications were revoked....THAT is when the person responding says, "We are surprised at the results of the USBC testing and are presently investigating this matter. It was never our intention to violate any USBC specifications and if we have, we are sincerely sorry and will take every step to correct the issue that has lead to this problem." <-------DING DING DING!!!!

Instead...they wrote (essentially); "Yeah....the USBC tested our stuff....and that sucks. We are sad. If you bought our products....we'll try to help you out...while we spend the next week or so arguing with the USBC and trying to convince the PBA to step in....but yeah...."

As David Spade so eloquently put it when talking about people on the TV show "COPs"; "...guy is always the same....wife beater, Miami Dolphins shorts, cig, one flip flop.....NOT surprised there's in cop in your house..."

If your spouse goes missing and the cops show up at your house to tell you they found her body in the woods...

....the CORRECT response for an innocent person...is "What!? Are you serious!? Are you sure!? OH MY GOD!!! (insert crying and falling to your knees and praying and sobbing and being a total wreck).

...the INCORRECT response (again...if you're innocent) is...."Really? You guys found her way back behind that big tree? I didn't think you'd even look there."

How many times do cops pull over a drunk and say, "We noticed you swerving..." and the drunk responds, "Well...yeah....you'd swerve too if you just did 9 shots in an hour and a half...but why are you guys even bothering me...don't you have murders to solve?? Geeesh."

So, again, if you're ASSUMING they didn't know....despite them never saying they didn't know....then I suppose many of these random defenses might hold water. If you work off the assumption that Motiv DID KNOW....suddenly almost all of these defenses...they faaaaaaaade away.

[Mike White]

ASSUMPTION ALERT!!

So, again, if you're ASSUMING they didn't know....despite them never saying they didn't know....then I suppose many of these random defenses might hold water. If you work off the assumption that Motiv DID KNOW....suddenly almost all of these defenses...they faaaaaaaade away.

If you're the "jury" it's not good to base things off assumptions.

[Aslan]

If you're the "jury" it's not good to base things off assumptions.

My only assumption....is I have no assumptions...just going by what they chose to say and what they chose not to say.

[Mike White]

My only assumption....is I have no assumptions...just going by what they chose to say and what they chose not to say.

How do you go by what they chose not to say?

You think because they chose not to say that they cheated, therefore they must have cheated.


They also chose not to say you're an idiot.

[Aslan]

They also chose not to say you're an idiot.

Well, to be fair, they don't know me...I'm fairly sure they'd have included that if they knew me.

It's called logic. See...if you get caught doing something deemed "wrong"...from an early age...we are taught to deny it. ESPECIALLY...if we didn't do it. It's almost universally accepted...that when accused of doing something...that we did not intend to do...we say, "Oh....I didn't mean to do that."...we then...depending on the circumstances...CHOOSE...to either apologize for what we did...or we choose to stand by what we did and leave it at "it wasn't our intention".

Examples:
Lets say I made a bowling ball...and the USBC spot checked it and found it to be out of compliance. If I did not know it was out of compliance, I would respond:

"This is the first we've heard of this. We apologize to the USBC and out customers and our athletes and are currently investigating to find out exactly what led to this non-compliance." I'd then follow it up with further re-assurances that I am doing everything possible to solve the apparent problem.

Now....lets say, same situation....but I sort of already knew...and maybe my athletes knew...maybe it was kind've a 'running joke' that the USBC never checks...so we played with the cores a little...whatever. My response would then change to:

"The USBC has made a ruling on our ball specifications. We are working on a suitable and equitable recall of these bowling balls. We apologize to our customers for the inconvenience and will provide additional information shortly."

See...in the last statement...I apologized...to the customers...who have to stop using their bowling balls...and return them. I also purposely did NOT say anything related to what I knew, didn't know, or who else knew. My hope in making that statement (the 2nd one)...is that the customers won't be too ticked off....and that hopefully...nobody else will ask any questions.

Where Motiv made their latest in a series of mistakes...is somebody decided to "test" the USBC. They were staring down about a $1 million dollar hit...and somebody in the board meeting...decided to speak up and say something like, "Why don't we meet with the USBC and convince them to re-certify the balls?" And somebody...thought, "well...it's worth a try." I mean, that seems reasonable given a $1 million dollar potential loss. But...all that did was poke the already annoyed bear. It made an issue that might have just faded away into bowling obscurity....stay alive...for a 1 week longer. All this time...people talking, people asking questions...

You claim it's absurd to judge them on what they "didn't" say...my question is simply...."why wouldn't they say it?" Why in the World...with all the time they had to prepare a response...what monumental incompetency could possibly lead them to leave out that ONE important sentence? This wasn't asking Donald Trump a question off the cuff that he wasn't prepared for. They had over 2 weeks to prepare a response...to fine tune it...carefully. There's only one conclusion that makes sense...which makes me wonder....why is it that only the "idiot" can see whats really going on??

The Final Four is almost over. Then we got the NBA and NHL playoffs and MLB opening days. Maybe the story stays buried. Maybe not. Time will tell.

[Mike White]

There's only one conclusion that makes sense...which makes me wonder....why is it that only the "idiot" can see whats really going on??


Probably because only the "idiot" knows what he is making up inside his own head.

[fordman1]

Wow you guys sound like O. J.'s lawyers. I wish the USBC looked at oil patterns as closely.

[Aslan]

Wow you guys sound like O. J.'s lawyers. I wish the USBC looked at oil patterns as closely.

OJs lawyers had the excuse that they wanted to be famous and made a poo-ton of money...Mike's defense...is, well...not as solid...unless he's getting a check from Motiv and isn't telling us...which I doubt.

[Mike White]

OJs lawyers had the excuse that they wanted to be famous and made a poo-ton of money...Mike's defense...is, well...not as solid...unless he's getting a check from Motiv and isn't telling us...which I doubt.

The only lawyer for OJ that became famous due to the trial was Kardashian, and he was more of a friend than a lawyer.

P.S. he was already financially well off.

[Aslan]

The only lawyer for OJ that became famous due to the trial was Kardashian, and he was more of a friend than a lawyer.

P.S. he was already financially well off.

Johnny Cochran was a nobody before that trial...now he's as memorable a lawyer name as anyone.

But, neither here or there...I don't plan to rich nor famous...especially not for pursuing the truth regarding the Motiv recall incident. There's a 96% chance, despite my efforts...no matter how much resolve I have...that bowling simply isn't a popular enough activity to warrant enough attention for this to even be a Page 8 story in the back of the sports section. Even if there were smoking guns and scandals left and right....unless pro bowlers start fighting each other in the nude during ESPN broadcasts...I can't imagine anyone putting down their iPhones and stop playing candy crush long enough to really care.

[Mike White]

Johnny Cochran was a nobody before that trial...now he's as memorable a lawyer name as anyone.


You have a right to your opinion, but that says more about you than it does about Jonnie.

[Aslan]

You have a right to your opinion, but that says more about you than it does about Jonnie.

Yeah...me and 85 million other people.

[Aslan]

Received a response from the USBC.

No new information...which is what I expected. I didn't really have any burning questions for them anyways. Mainly I just wanted to know:

Do they know who sent the balls in to be "spun" and are they considering revising their field testing procedures to be more aggressive and less reliant on competitors to submit samples?

They chose not to respond to those questions.

I presented other questions, to Brunswick, the PBA, and Motiv...and the USBC did reiterate that any scores bowled prior to the revoking of the certification will stand as bowled. However....the wording they used was something (I don't have the letter with me right now) to the effect that "bowlers with no prior knowledge", etc... That I think leaves the issue open.

But that really isn't the USBC's concern...that's more of a PBA question since the athletes in question won PBA major titles. Granted, there were USBC major events where the Jackals...and probably Carnages were thrown...but it's really more of a PBA issue than a USBC issue.

I'll go into more detail in a week or so, after I've given the other parties ample time to respond. I don't believe they will...I'm a member of the USBC so they have a vested interest in communicating with me...although it wouldn't have surprised me if they hadn't. The PBA, Brunswick, and Motiv have no obligatory reason to respond whatsoever and I doubt they will. I think it's a matter that'll likely require newspapers to investigate...people with actual "credentials" and investigative skills.

But still, props to the USBC for responding. I always like getting letters from the USBC. It's usually the only stuff I get in the mail that isn't a bill or junk mail. :)

[fordman1]

What no check for royalties from all the novels you write on here? :confused:

[Aslan]

What no check for royalties from all the novels you write on here? :confused:

I'm paid in love and admiration.