MOTIV starts Jackal Replacement program

[vdubtx]

Update from Motiv on how replacement balls will be handled posted on 11th frame.

Not sure if all have access to it, but here is link to PDF that was sent to proshops.

Hosted on 11thframe.com LINK (https://www.11thframe.com/PZN/richgels/blog/8315/Motiv%20Jackal%20Fair%20Exchange%20Program.pdf)

Hosted on public folder on my Dropbox LINK (https://www.dropbox.com/s/lmy2xnldsl5ha0z/Motiv%20Jackal%20Fair%20Exchange%20Program.pdf?dl= 0)

[bowl1820]

A new limited edition heavy oil ball or a ball from the current line.

That's was cagey, I bet they think most will want to wait for the LE ball.

And wow the PSO gets 1 new ball for each 8 they drill wooooooo.:p

[vdubtx]

And wow the PSO gets 1 new ball for each 8 they drill wooooooo.:p

But, they get a slug and 2 inserts per ball. So, that should help offset the cost of the drilling right? LOL! :cool:

[LyalC52]

so I'm guessing 8 weeks at least to get something

most likely after winter leagues end

now do I gamble and wait for the LE ball

ugggg F you Motiv

[jab5325]

Wow, they're not handling this well.

A new ball. What are they calling it? The Motiv Jackal F*Up? The Motiv Oops I Did It Again?

After seeing the craziness that has transpired, I'm going to be surprised if Motiv exists in 5 years.

[scottymoney]

Not handling this well? They gave everyone with a Jackal the ability to pick something from their current lineup or the option to get the Limited Edition ball they are working on. It isn't like they can just poop out a new ball right away so at least they gave an option. Oh plus all the drilling and grips. I think they have done more than enough. Everyone needs to take a chill pill, especially if you have no skin in the game. If you don't like how they are handling it, I will gladly take your jackal (if you actually have one) and make good use of it.

Seriously if you have one hit me up with an offer and I will consider it. Mine will be traded in for the Limited Edition ball. I could use a few other balls in the line.

[NewToBowling]

Not handling this well? They gave everyone with a Jackal the ability to pick something from their current lineup or the option to get the Limited Edition ball they are working on. It isn't like they can just poop out a new ball right away so at least they gave an option. Oh plus all the drilling and grips. I think they have done more than enough. Everyone needs to take a chill pill, especially if you have no skin in the game. If you don't like how they are handling it, I will gladly take your jackal (if you actually have one) and make good use of it.

Seriously if you have one hit me up with an offer and I will consider it. Mine will be traded in for the Limited Edition ball. I could use a few other balls in the line.

Are you willing to give them a new ball in return?

[scottymoney]

I am willing to buy it, so that I can get the new ball in return. For a fair price.

If people want to complain about it I would buy it off of them and then they don't have to worry about the trade in.

[jab5325]

Not handling this well? They gave everyone with a Jackal the ability to pick something from their current lineup or the option to get the Limited Edition ball they are working on. It isn't like they can just poop out a new ball right away so at least they gave an option. Oh plus all the drilling and grips. I think they have done more than enough. Everyone needs to take a chill pill, especially if you have no skin in the game. If you don't like how they are handling it, I will gladly take your jackal (if you actually have one) and make good use of it.

Seriously if you have one hit me up with an offer and I will consider it. Mine will be traded in for the Limited Edition ball. I could use a few other balls in the line.

From a corporate crisis standpoint, they've handled this poorly.

- Despite advance notice, they had nothing setup to get the return program up and going.

- No statement has been made about how the error occurred, and their pros have largely stayed silent.

- Despite initial pleasantries, they indicated they'd try to get the USBC to retroactively add the balls to the approved list instead of biting the bullet and get going.

- Once said exchange program was up and running, limitations were placed on what types of balls can be had and where those balls are shipped.

- No compensation to ball owners for drilling, only a trivial amount given to pro shops.

- A new, limited edition Jackal F*up is just a stupid idea and will be the butt of jokes for years.

I could go on....but from someone who studied and went through such events in a professional setting....I'm surprised they're not doing better at this, and in my opinion, their actions since the initial event has put an existential threat on the company.

[Aslan]

From a corporate crisis standpoint, they've handled this poorly.

- Despite advance notice, they had nothing setup to get the return program up and going.

- No statement has been made about how the error occurred, and their pros have largely stayed silent.

- Despite initial pleasantries, they indicated they'd try to get the USBC to retroactively add the balls to the approved list instead of biting the bullet and get going.


I think their hope was that the USBC would back down. When that didn't happen, they hoped that with a little push back and reaching out to the PBA...maybe they could force the USBC to back down. That didn't work either.

The USBC is in the right, they know that, and they are far more powerful than the PBA or Motiv combined. The PBA owns the league, but the USBC owns the sport. So, when they (Motiv) started to see their own loyal fans starting to grumble about being dis-satisfied...they had to bite the bullet.

From a conspiracy standpoint....I think they probably also wanted to bury this before more "interesting" questions started to surface by the "non-Aslans" of the World regarding what they knew, what they didn't know, when they knew, and whether they knew prior to their sponsored athletes winning titles. They certainly knew prior to Gary Falkner's trip to the White House. I think the Wilburs got nervous that this huge embarrassment and massive hit to their bank account....could become a bigger embarrassment and ultimately destroy their company...so they're going to do what they can to quietly start fixing the issue and hope that stops the questions.

But jab hit the nail on the head....we're still waiting to know "exactly" what led to the balls being out of spec....what they are doing to fix that...and when they knew. And I have a feeling...despite this ball return stuff...those questions will have to be answered in time. And I have a feeling, the non-Amyers and non-Motiv lovers...are going to be very upset about those answers.

[jab5325]

I think their hope was that the USBC would back down. When that didn't happen, they hoped that with a little push back and reaching out to the PBA...maybe they could force the USBC to back down. That didn't work either.

The USBC is in the right, they know that, and they are far more powerful than the PBA or Motiv combined. The PBA owns the league, but the USBC owns the sport. So, when they (Motiv) started to see their own loyal fans starting to grumble about being dis-satisfied...they had to bite the bullet.

From a conspiracy standpoint....I think they probably also wanted to bury this before more "interesting" questions started to surface by the "non-Aslans" of the World regarding what they knew, what they didn't know, when they knew, and whether they knew prior to their sponsored athletes winning titles. They certainly knew prior to Gary Falkner's trip to the White House. I think the Wilburs got nervous that this huge embarrassment and massive hit to their bank account....could become a bigger embarrassment and ultimately destroy their company...so they're going to do what they can to quietly start fixing the issue and hope that stops the questions.

But jab hit the nail on the head....we're still waiting to know "exactly" what led to the balls being out of spec....what they are doing to fix that...and when they knew. And I have a feeling...despite this ball return stuff...those questions will have to be answered in time. And I have a feeling, the non-Amyers and non-Motiv lovers...are going to be very upset about those answers.

For the record, I'm not saying or implying there's a conspiracy at play.

My point was to point out facts during the process, and my opinion that the whole ordeal is being handled poorly.

[Aslan]

For the record though...this is a MORE THAN FAIR response on their part for their customers and the pro shops.

Regardless of how I feel about their handling of this to date...and regardless of my independent investigation into the matter...this is a more than equitable solution that I think will make their customers very happy.

The only question I'd have as a "customer"...is, "If they won't tell us how the initial thing happened....and they won't tell us how they fixed it....how do we know the replacement balls are in USBC specs?" That's why they should have handled it differently. IF, (big IF at this point) it was simply a manufacturing issue...then the customers need to know what that was and how they fixed it. I've worked in manufacturing and quality control all my life...these type of issues can occur and almost always easy to identify and very easy to resolve. In other words....it was either intentional or...their PR department should be fired...and shame on the USBC for not demanding a cause and corrective action from Motiv. Add all that up...it was intentional.

[NewToBowling]

I'm pretty sure the replacement ball will have a differential of 0.0000000000000000000000000000001 :)

[billf]

When this finally goes to court and ALL the documents are made public then many will be alarmed at how well and controlled the Wilbur's have been throughout this. This was the first time the USBC "field tested" any manufacturer's balls. And by field test I mean only the cases purchaed by 900RotoStorm corporate whose spouses work at USBC sent with the note "spin me" on them were checked.
But it won't get to court. The USBC and 900RotoStorm have too much to lose if the truth was made public.
I would like to know for sure just so I know if I was lied to to my face by one party or in print by the other.

[vdubtx]

When this finally goes to court and ALL the documents are made public then many will be alarmed at how well and controlled the Wilbur's have been throughout this. This was the first time the USBC "field tested" any manufacturer's balls. And by field test I mean only the cases purchaed by 900RotoStorm corporate whose spouses work at USBC sent with the note "spin me" on them were checked.
But it won't get to court. The USBC and 900RotoStorm have too much to lose if the truth was made public.
I would like to know for sure just so I know if I was lied to to my face by one party or in print by the other.

bill, where are you seeing that it was 900RotoStorm that was the one who submitted the balls to be tested?

Or, is it just another rumor out there like it was for DV8/Brunswick?

[Mike White]

bill, where are you seeing that it was 900RotoStorm that was the one who submitted the balls to be tested?

Or, is it just another rumor out there like it was for DV8/Brunswick?

I didn't hear 900RotoStorm before, but I did hear from a different source about family members of the "whistle blowers" working at USBC.

[Aslan]

But it won't get to court. The USBC and 900RotoStorm have too much to lose if the truth was made public.
Even if it DID go to court...regardless of their affiliations and family members...it would be very hard for Motiv to essentially prove that someone in the USBC conspired with one of the big ball companies to intentionally go after Motiv.

It's possible. I mean, if they altered data...or in the case of the Carnage rounded things a certain way...it's possible. But the problem Motiv has is their balls aren't passing. They simply don't meet the specifications. It's like Volkswagon suing the EPA because GM reported them and GM has spouses of employees working at the EPA. It's "possible"...but it's a long shot and at best would just create enough of a financial restitution to cover the recall. And that's a long, long shot.


I would like to know for sure just so I know if I was lied to to my face by one party or in print by the other.
I think whoever sent the balls in....are probably not going to be on the PBA's Christmas list anymore. It may have been Brunswick...DV8 makes the most sense...many people are saying Radical...and Bill is right that there are lots of Storm people at the USBC...could have been them as well. But I think they've been reluctant to "own it...as Rotogrip would demand of them"...because I have to think the PBA will look at that little crime as more important in their eyes than Motiv's crime. Whomever sent in the balls, tarnished the standing of the PBA...even if they did so technically "in the right".

The problem is...it doesn't really change the scenario. Motiv still has two popular balls that are no longer certified. Motiv still hasn't come out claiming they didn't already know that. Motiv's athletes have not said they didn't know. Motiv has made no statements concerning corrective actions (the recall isn't a corrective action).

I don't think the Wilburs necessarily "knew"...I imagine they don't concern themselves with those details.

But like I tried to explain to Amyers...."INTENT" is a HUUUUUUUGE word in the legal system. The most important questions from a legal perspective are:

1) What did Motiv know and when did they know it. Was their violation of USBC specifications WILLFUL.

2) Did Storm or Brunswick COLLUDE with the USBC to INTENTionally harm a competitor?

Both of these are absolutely crucial questions...because they change minor infractions and slaps on the wrist...to multi-million dollar lawsuits and offenses. I still believe that Motiv is the true culprit here. My reasoning is (see other post about what they did NOT say in any of their statements to date) AND...even if Storm and the USBC did something "nasty"....the USBC isn't going to revoke certifications from two popular bowling balls...against a silver level sponsor...unless their data is sound and unable to be challenged. The USBC simply did their job (for a change). Unless they falsified those results...data is a HUGE advantage in court. And a judge would have a hard time finding (no pun intented), motive on behalf of the USBC to financially damage a corporate partner that contributes a large amount of income to their organization. It's much, much easier to show motive on behalf of Motiv...as confusing as that sounds.

Motive, Willful, Intent, Knowingly, etc... These are very, very important concepts in the legal system. That's why Motiv really screwed the pooch on this one...by NOT stating in their FIRST response....FIRST paragraph....that they were not AWARE of the non-compliance with USBC specifications. Terrible, terrible, inexcusable mistake from a PR and legal perspective....UNLESS....they knew. If they knew...it may have been a legal decision to specifically NOT say that.

[Mike White]

Even if it DID go to court...regardless of their affiliations and family members...it would be very hard for Motiv to essentially prove that someone in the USBC conspired with one of the big ball companies to intentionally go after Motiv.

It's possible. I mean, if they altered data...or in the case of the Carnage rounded things a certain way...it's possible. But the problem Motiv has is their balls aren't passing. They simply don't meet the specifications. It's like Volkswagon suing the EPA because GM reported them and GM has spouses of employees working at the EPA. It's "possible"...but it's a long shot and at best would just create enough of a financial restitution to cover the recall. And that's a long, long shot.


I think whoever sent the balls in....are probably not going to be on the PBA's Christmas list anymore. It may have been Brunswick...DV8 makes the most sense...many people are saying Radical...and Bill is right that there are lots of Storm people at the USBC...could have been them as well. But I think they've been reluctant to "own it...as Rotogrip would demand of them"...because I have to think the PBA will look at that little crime as more important in their eyes than Motiv's crime. Whomever sent in the balls, tarnished the standing of the PBA...even if they did so technically "in the right".


How did whomever sent in the balls, tarnish the standing of the PBA?

They didn't apply the tarnish, if anything, they shined a light on tarnish that was already there but not noticed by the public.



The problem is...it doesn't really change the scenario. Motiv still has two popular balls that are no longer certified. Motiv still hasn't come out claiming they didn't already know that. Motiv's athletes have not said they didn't know. Motiv has made no statements concerning corrective actions (the recall isn't a corrective action).

I don't think the Wilburs necessarily "knew"...I imagine they don't concern themselves with those details.

But like I tried to explain to Amyers...."INTENT" is a HUUUUUUUGE word in the legal system. The most important questions from a legal perspective are:


Intent is also a word that prosecutors will swing like a hammer, then chop it up, twist it, and turn it, so it's no longer recognizable as what you originally thought of as intent. All with the purpose of getting you to not dispute that the defendant had formed intent.



1) What did Motiv know and when did they know it. Was their violation of USBC specifications WILLFUL.

2) Did Storm or Brunswick COLLUDE with the USBC to INTENTionally harm a competitor?

Both of these are absolutely crucial questions...because they change minor infractions and slaps on the wrist...to multi-million dollar lawsuits and offenses. I still believe that Motiv is the true culprit here. My reasoning is (see other post about what they did NOT say in any of their statements to date) AND...even if Storm and the USBC did something "nasty"....the USBC isn't going to revoke certifications from two popular bowling balls...against a silver level sponsor...unless their data is sound and unable to be challenged. The USBC simply did their job (for a change). Unless they falsified those results...data is a HUGE advantage in court. And a judge would have a hard time finding (no pun intented), motive on behalf of the USBC to financially damage a corporate partner that contributes a large amount of income to their organization. It's much, much easier to show motive on behalf of Motiv...as confusing as that sounds.
may have been a legal decision to specifically NOT say that.

If data had such a huge advantage in court, why did it take so long for a tobacco company to lose a case?

To the average Joe, data doesn't mean a thing. It's the story told to the jury about the data, that convinces or doesn't convince the jury,

[Aslan]

How did whomever sent in the balls, tarnish the standing of the PBA?
Having two major ball manufacturers exposing one another and leading to a disgrace of one kind or another...the PBA doesn't want that. All the PBA has is it's name and it's image. ANYTHING that any bowler or sponsor does do tarnish that image or that name (including but not limited to the use of illegal equipment, cheating, or this sort of corporate backstabbing)....can be seen by the PBA as tarnishing their image.

It's like a child that always "tattles" on his/her sibling. It isn't "wrong" to report a problem...but you also want to send the message that it's also not a great thing to be constantly "tattling" on each other.


If data had such a huge advantage in court, why did it take so long for a tobacco company to lose a case?

Good point, but in those cases...there was a great deal of conflicting data. Chronic illnesses can be caused by so many things, that it is difficult, especially facing the resources of the tobacco industry, to "beyond a reasonable doubt" show that a cigarette causes cancer. Chronic illnesses are usually the result of multiple factors....that's why one person smokes and eats bacon for 80 years and dies while a person who jogs every day can drop dead at 49 from a heart attack. The data isn't definitive enough.

In this case, the data is simply math. It's a collection of readings with an average. The difficulty the USBC will have is how many significant figures they used and how precise the method and equipment is, whether it was calibrated properly, etc... There are multiple ways Motiv could win a lawsuit given the method the USBC is using...but I gotta think the USBC is already prepared for that. Like Bill said, the USBC has NEVER done this before. They are doing this against a very important supporter...a very popular company with many of their members. I don't think they did this without dotting every "I" and crossing every "t".

And none of the above matters...if Motiv KNEW. Again....I can't emphasize that point enough. Motiv can't sue the USBC if Motiv knew the balls were out of spec. Their athletes won't be able to keep their titles or money earned throwing those balls if the athletes knew. And if the athletes "knew", then the PBA has to get involved from a Code of Conduct position. And then you have the competitors from other companies...and the damages (financial) they incurred as a result of the intentional acts of Motiv and their athletes. Something so small as a differential...would end Motiv.

But....if they didn't know...it's a slap on the wrist...a costly recall...and everybody moves on. But KNOWING...who knew what and when...those are questions I can't imagine Motiv wanting to answer...and I think that's why there will be no challenge of Storm, Brunswick, or the USBC...and that's why there was no statement made claiming what they knew and when...they just want it to go away....and will gladly pay 1 million dollars to make that happen. They aren't "happy" about it...nor would I be or you be....but I think they know how much worse it could be and cooler heads will prevail.

[wannabepro]

I guess i'm new to this story but why is motiv doing this?

[epiepenburg]

I guess i'm new to this story but why is motiv doing this?

Two Motiv balls were ruled to be illegal for play by the USBC, they were not within spec and weren't the spec Motiv said they were.

[wannabepro]

Two Motiv balls were ruled to be illegal for play by the USBC, they were not within spec and weren't the spec Motiv said they were.

Why have a lawsuit though? Also hasn't the Jackal been out for a long while.

[mc_runner]

At this point I think the lawsuit is all conjecture.

Both balls have been out for awhile, but something changed between when they were released (in spec) and a few weeks ago when the USBC tested them (they were out of spec). So, the USBC pulled their approval and the balls can no longer be used. Motiv is working on fixing the issue and/or has begun replacing balls for owners who now can't use them in USBC play.