Silly question about 10 pins

[mc_runner]

This is something that's been bugging me for awhile, finally just figured I'd ask it. A flat 10 is one where the 6 pin falls in front of the 10 and stays there or just falls into the gutter. A ringing 10 is where the 6 shoots around the 10.

How about those 10 pin leaves where the 6 pin goes hard into the gutter but then doesn't bounce off? It's not a flat 10 since the 6 goes hard and kind of bounces in there a bit, but it's not a ringing 10 since the pin doesn't really react as much after it hits the gutter...? I seem to leave at least as many of these as other kind of 10s, so it would be nice to know what they "are" so as to adjust to it. Personally I have put them as more on the ringing 10 in the past but have been second guessing it for a few weeks.

Am I even making sense? haha.

[bowl1820]

Here's a article by SUSIE MINSHEW with some insight

Competitive Strategies Part 1
http://www.bowlersparadise.com/articles/coachescorner/susie-minshew/competitive-strategies-part-1.shtml

Might also try Slowinski's article PINS ARE TALKING

http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/slowinskifeb10.pdf

[Mike White]

This is something that's been bugging me for awhile, finally just figured I'd ask it. A flat 10 is one where the 6 pin falls in front of the 10 and stays there or just falls into the gutter. A ringing 10 is where the 6 shoots around the 10.

How about those 10 pin leaves where the 6 pin goes hard into the gutter but then doesn't bounce off? It's not a flat 10 since the 6 goes hard and kind of bounces in there a bit, but it's not a ringing 10 since the pin doesn't really react as much after it hits the gutter...? I seem to leave at least as many of these as other kind of 10s, so it would be nice to know what they "are" so as to adjust to it. Personally I have put them as more on the ringing 10 in the past but have been second guessing it for a few weeks.

Am I even making sense? haha.

That would still qualify as a flat 10.

Think of it this way.

You have ringing 10 pins, and flat 10 pins.

The dividing line (area) between the two is when the 6 pin hits the side wall and takes out the 10 pin.

One important thing to consider when trying to adjust is most flat 10 pins are cause by hitting too far right of the pocket, while ringing 10 pins tend to be in the pocket, but deflect too much.

On a ring 10, you need to reduce deflection (which usually means get the ball to hook more) while at the same time end up at the same location in the pocket.

Flat 10, you need to hit the pocket better, usually by getting the ball to hook more, then when you hit the pocket properly you may already have the right angle to carry. If not (ring 10), you're going to have to make another tweak for ringing 10 you just left.

[fordman1]

I leave a lot of 10's. My ball does not deflect. The pins look like a grenade went off. Then I look around and see strike after strike with 3 or 4 pins left laying on the deck. Makes me want to quit.

[Mike White]

I leave a lot of 10's. My ball does not deflect. The pins look like a grenade went off. Then I look around and see strike after strike with 3 or 4 pins left laying on the deck. Makes me want to quit.

You need to break you're self of the delusion that your ball doesn't deflect.

The laws of physics don't halt because it's you throwing the ball.

The only time your ball doesn't is when you hit directly into the pin.

Like shooting at a 2, 4, 5, and hooking the ball dead onto the 2 pin, chopping it off the 5 pin.

3, 6, 10, and picking off just the 3 pin

and finally then 6, 10, and getting just the 6.

Ever notice that as a right hander, you don't pick the 2 off of the 4, or the 4 off of the 7, unless you have moved far left, and throw dead straight.

[fordman1]

Of course it deflects. That wasn't my point. It drives through the pins and it is 9 in the pit. Don't be condescending. I have been bowling for 60 years and in that time have seen plenty of 10 pins left by plenty of bowlers.

[Mike White]

Of course it deflects. That wasn't my point. It drives through the pins and it is 9 in the pit. Don't be condescending. I have been bowling for 60 years and in that time have seen plenty of 10 pins left by plenty of bowlers.

I thought the statement "My ball doesn't deflect" was your point.

Ok so your point was that it makes you want to quit because of the crap most others are getting away with.

Well, hop on the wagon, there is plenty of room, but you're not in the front seat.

Or you could take the advice of someone else here who shall remain unnamed.

The game is what it is, and don't expect it to change, so embrace it, and figure out how to throw your own pile of crap.

Then if you happen to leave another 10 pin, just go buy another ball so your crap will be different next time.

[billf]

I leave a lot of 10's. My ball does not deflect. The pins look like a grenade went off. Then I look around and see strike after strike with 3 or 4 pins left laying on the deck. Makes me want to quit.

Entry angle is slightly in excess of 6°


Of course it deflects. That wasn't my point. It drives through the pins and it is 9 in the pit. Don't be condescending. I have been bowling for 60 years and in that time have seen plenty of 10 pins left by plenty of bowlers.

You literally wrote that your ball doesn't deflect and THAT makes Mike condescending? That seems odd no matter how long you've been bowling.

[Mike White]

[QUOTE=billf;141964]Entry angle is slightly in excess of 6°

You say in excess of 6 degrees, but what is your reasoning?

To me the 10 pin is due to a low angle of entry.

Or missing the pocket to the right,

But missing the pocket to the right tends to leave 3 to 4 pins on the deck, so the grenade comment, and the disparaging of the 3 to 4 guys, kinda rules out light.

[billf]

Flat 10 low entry angle
Ringing 10 too much angle
All assumes ball speed, axis rotation, blah, blah, blah are reasonable which I did based off the grenade comment. Based off research from a group you don't like but day in and day out has proved accurate with today's game.

[Mike White]

Flat 10 low entry angle
Ringing 10 too much angle
All assumes ball speed, axis rotation, blah, blah, blah are reasonable which I did based off the grenade comment. Based off research from a group you don't like but day in and day out has proved accurate with today's game.

Well since I know of no research group that has been proved accurate, I guess I have no idea who that might be.

There are groups, with devout followers, who don't have the courage or education to question if their dogma is correct.

But that would include a lot of religions as well.

If an entry angle was too large, there would be insufficient deflection, which would drive the 3 pin to the right half of the 6 pin, which in turn would drive the 6 pin to the left side of the 10 pin.

If it was enough to miss the 10 pin, you wouldn't see the 6 pin go around the 10 pin in a "ringing 10 pin situation"

Unless you consider the "perfect" strike to be the shot that bounces the 6 pin off the wall, and into the 10 pin.

But that doesn't happen with 6 degrees of entry angle, so I don't see how your numbers could possibly be proven accurate.

[billf]

Do you agree that desired entry angle is 4-6°? That entry angle of 7° or more will increase the chance of a 9 pin standing?

[Mike White]

Do you agree that desired entry angle is 4-6°? That entry angle of 7° or more will increase the chance of a 9 pin standing?

Well since you have to figure in ball mass, and at what speed it is approaching the pins, 7 might not be enough for a lighter ball, and 4 might be too much for a 16 lbs ball.

Most of what I've seen blamed on deflection is actually poor location in the pocket.

9 pins will happen more often as you hit high on the head pin, as will 4 pins.

Now if you're right handed, not throwing an extreme back up ball, and hitting the correct location, any entry angle will take out the 1, 2, 4, 7.

I don't think I've ever seen a ball with "too much entry" leave a 10 pin.

On the other hand I've had a ball with too perfect of location and entry leave a 3 pin.

I'll let you ponder on how that could happen.

[billf]

Well since you have to figure in ball mass, and at what speed it is approaching the pins, 7 might not be enough for a lighter ball, and 4 might be too much for a 16 lbs ball.

Most of what I've seen blamed on deflection is actually poor location in the pocket.

9 pins will happen more often as you hit high on the head pin, as will 4 pins.

Now if you're right handed, not throwing an extreme back up ball, and hitting the correct location, any entry angle will take out the 1, 2, 4, 7.

I don't think I've ever seen a ball with "too much entry" leave a 10 pin.

On the other hand I've had a ball with too perfect of location and entry leave a 3 pin.

I'll let you ponder on how that could happen.

OK I will bite. If the ball hits the 17.5 board (pocket) at the correct angle in theory it has to hit the 3 pin so how did it leave it?

[Mike White]

OK I will bite. If the ball hits the 17.5 board (pocket) at the correct angle in theory it has to hit the 3 pin so how did it leave it?

Remember this thing.

http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/newtons-cradle-1.jpg

As the swinging ball (the bowling ball) hits the first stationary ball (the 3 pin) all the force is passed thru to the 2nd (6 pin), 3rd (10 pin) and finally 4th ( nothing after the 10 pin) stationary ball, and the 4th ball swings up. the 6 and 10 pin ended up in the pit.

Well since the COR of pins isn't 1.0, it doesn't quite work the same, but the 3 pin instead of standing absolutely still, ended up standing in the 10 pin spot.

If the ball didn't deflect off the head pin, into the exactly correct spot on the 3 pin, the 3 pin would have bounced off the 6 pin towards the pit, or the gutter, not directly towards the 10 pin.

I've done this twice, most recently when Aslan, Iceman, Mudpuppy, Rob, and I were bowling in Vegas, and I thought there was video of it, but it must have been left on the editing room floor.

[billf]

I've seen them slide but usually to the 6 spot. Some actually spin on the base for awhile. Looks better when others do it.

[mc_runner]

Interesting discussions. Thank you for the input (all). Mike it does seem that a flat 10 would make more sense based on how the ball comes in and drives through (or lack thereof), something I left out in the first post. Sometimes these are shots that you know are gonna leave a 10 long before the ball hits the pins.

Pins that slide and don't fall or fall over and stand back up are the one true tap left in bowling :eek: Not like you can adjust a whole lot or have done anything different.

[Mike White]

Interesting discussions. Thank you for the input (all). Mike it does seem that a flat 10 would make more sense based on how the ball comes in and drives through (or lack thereof), something I left out in the first post. Sometimes these are shots that you know are gonna leave a 10 long before the ball hits the pins.

Pins that slide and don't fall or fall over and stand back up are the one true tap left in bowling :eek: Not like you can adjust a whole lot or have done anything different.

That "intuition" you have that the shot you just made isn't going to work is actually explainable with physics.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

In bowling, for every force you apply to the bowling ball with your hand, the bowling ball applies back to your hand.

Given time, you recognize these forces, and prepare for them.

When they don't show up, it usually effects your ability to post the shot, and also the ball's reaction down lane.