What would you do?

[RobLV1]

On Thursday nights, I bowl in a huge handicap league with my wife who averages around 150, and two 200+ bowlers. The league takes up the entire 60 lanes of the bowling center. Last night the team that we were scheduled to bowl did not show up. We inquired with the league secretary, and were informed that the other team was planning to do a make up. Here's the problem: it states in the league rules that a team who is going to be absent must inform the League Secretary or League President, and the TEAM CAPTAIN OF THE OPPOSING TEAM. This rule was added for the simple reason that the center does not re-oil the entire lane before night leagues. They simply do a 25' head run, leaving the other 35' as it was after the entire days bowling. If a team that is doing a pre-bowl or make up chooses to bowl in the morning on a fresh condition, they have a tremendous advantage.

When we showed the league secretary the rule, he shrugged his shoulders and said, "There's nothing I can do about it, nobody has every questioned it before." Really? He said that it is the President's responsibility to enforce the rules. We talked to the President who said that she would talk to the Secretary. My question is this: how far would you go in making sure that the league rules are actually enforced?

[Amyers]

If this is a money league and from the size it probably is I would have them enforce the rule. If it was a "fun" league I wouldn't worry about it

[bowl1820]

"it states in the league rules that a team who is going to be absent must inform the League Secretary or League President, and the TEAM CAPTAIN OF THE OPPOSING TEAM."

If the opposing team didn't contact your Team captain directly (which is what the rule states, the Sec. or Pres. can't just tell you) then they violated the rule.

Then you need to file a protest, if the league doesn't enforce it. Then you follow the procedures regarding protests.

Rule 119 - Protest/Appeal Procedures

The ball is in your court, do you want to pass or play?

[Mike White]

"it states in the league rules that a team who is going to be absent must inform the League Secretary or League President, and the TEAM CAPTAIN OF THE OPPOSING TEAM."

If the opposing team didn't contact your Team captain directly (which is what the rule states, the Sec. or Pres. can't just tell you) then they violated the rule.

Then you need to file a protest, if the league doesn't enforce it. Then you follow the procedures regarding protests.

Rule 119 - Protest/Appeal Procedures

The ball is in your court, do you want to pass or play?

Lets play that idea out.

If one team protests, and wins, and other teams have (pre/post)-bowled without said notification to opposing team captains, then all of those teams captains are also entitled to the same ruling, which could cause a significant change in league standings, and create a major stink.

These are the kinds of things that result in teams quitting the league.

The question is, what is worse, the fallout of winning a protest, or the perceived disadvantage to the team bowling against a team (pre/post)-bowling?

[Amyers]

I'm not sure what the point of contacting the team captain is? What constitutes contact? I know I don't have the contact information for all of the team captains on any of my leagues. Even then it only says they have to contact the captain not that he has to approve so why bother?

[Aslan]

I agree with Bowl1820.

The League Secretary or President being lazy isn't a good enough excuse to ignore rules.

I know exactly what Rob is talking about. We have a 22-team league on Mondays...in a house that has two sides. That means one pair of teams has to bowl on the "high side" each week. The high side and low side are very different. The older, more seasoned bowlers don't like bowling on the high side. So, two weeks ago, we were supposed to bowl one of the better teams, who the league president/secretary bowl on...and they didn't show. They pre-bowled. Why? Because they didn't want to bowl on the high side.

We bowled...on lanes that hadn't been oiled since Thursday night before the holiday weekend...and I shot one of my lowest series and actually had to resort to throwing my Plastic spare ball as my strike ball in Game 3.

It didn't seem "fair" to me that teams can just "boycott" bowling on the high side like that. Obviously, I left a note for the center about my expectations that they oil ALL lanes...not just the low side...but I also think it's kinda "squirrelly" that teams are so unable to adjust their games...that they will go to the extreme of pre-bowling...just to avoid a pair of lanes they don't have 15 years experience throwing on. That's a sad comment on bowlers...especially when this team is in the top 3...with one bowler that I think has the high average.

Now, as to Rob's question...I did nothing because my team:
A) Didn't care.
B) Is in the bottom 3 of the standings.
C) Is just recovering from kicking a member off the team, which the league secretary was helpful with...so it would be a **** move to get all testy.
D) The only reason we have > 20 teams is because our team wanted to start a team. I think next year they will limit it to 20.

[Mike White]

I'm not sure what the point of contacting the team captain is? What constitutes contact? I know I don't have the contact information for all of the team captains on any of my leagues. Even then it only says they have to contact the captain not that he has to approve so why bother?

The purpose is to give the teams the opportunity to both bowl at the same time. (pre/post).

If the team pre/post bowling is required to contact the opposing team captain, they contact the secretary, and get the contact information, while at the same time informing the secretary of the need to pre/post bowl.

[Aslan]

I'm not sure what the point of contacting the team captain is? What constitutes contact? I know I don't have the contact information for all of the team captains on any of my leagues. Even then it only says they have to contact the captain not that he has to approve so why bother?

In a more competitive environment/league....it gives the other team the opportunity to bowl you at a different time. Like, if your team was facing Rob's team...and you wanted to bowl on more preferable conditions...you could contact the secretary, and the other team...and the other team could show up and bowl you on those conditions.

Nobody ever does that...but if there were really an advantage...and a decent amount of money on the line...it gives the other team a chance to benefit. At least that's what I think the point was originally.

It shouldn't even matter if the USBC would start focusing some effort on being more strict about lane conditions. The sport has become a joke because every center can completely change the game.

ETA: Mike beat me to it.

[vdubtx]

We have been confronted with this exact situation before. One league on Thursdays is a fun league and it's not a big deal. Tuesdays it is a more competitive league and we would hold to the rules as written that notice needs to be given ahead of time and our team given the opportunity to bowl with them when the pre/post bowl.

[Amyers]

The purpose is to give the teams the opportunity to both bowl at the same time. (pre/post).

If the team pre/post bowling is required to contact the opposing team captain, they contact the secretary, and get the contact information, while at the same time informing the secretary of the need to pre/post bowl.

I guess I understand but I would think that trying to get the team together to bowl on a different night/time would be difficult at best.

[Tony]

We had a similar situation a few weeks ago when one team was going to Vegas, they did announce during bowling that day that they were pre-bowling right after our regular league was done, I don't think they oiled again. They didn't ask permission of the other team or really give them a chance to bowl with them.

The same team is one of the teams bowling for the championship next week and they decided instead of bowling on lanes 1 and 2 that they would bowl on the top scoring pair in the house lanes 7 and 8, because they want to..... the current secretary and also the former president ( 2 years ago ) are on that team, they told the current president that they were doing it .......

We bowled their opponent last week for top spot in the second half, in a 100% of 220 league they have a team average over 900, their low game of the set was a 212, and had 3/4 games of 270 +, 2 guys had 700's and the other 2 800's . They didn't even have their ringer in, the guy who runs the pro shop, has a 255 average and over 100 300 games.
Needless to say we lost....

And they wonder why teams *****...... We have never contested anything.....just not really worth it to us...

[bowl1820]

"it states in the league rules that a team who is going to be absent must inform the League Secretary or League President, and the TEAM CAPTAIN OF THE OPPOSING TEAM."

If the opposing team didn't contact your Team captain directly (which is what the rule states, the Sec. or Pres. can't just tell you) then they violated the rule.

Then you need to file a protest, if the league doesn't enforce it. Then you follow the procedures regarding protests.

Rule 119 - Protest/Appeal Procedures

The ball is in your court, do you want to pass or play?

I'll rephrase this slightly.


If the opposing team didn't contact your Team captain directly (which is what the rule states, the Sec. or Pres. can't just tell you) then they violated the rule.

You have the choice of either doing nothing or file a protest/bring it to the leagues attention.

If you do nothing, then you don't whine about it and wish things were different, you live with it.

If you do file a protest, Then you follow the procedures regarding protests And live with the results of that protest.

Rule 119 - Protest/Appeal Procedures

The ball is in your court, do you want to pass or play? you have to weigh the ramifications of your actions and chose.

[RobLV1]

I'll rephrase this slightly.


If the opposing team didn't contact your Team captain directly (which is what the rule states, the Sec. or Pres. can't just tell you) then they violated the rule.

You have the choice of either doing nothing or file a protest/bring it to the leagues attention.

If you do nothing, then you don't whine about it and wish things were different, you live with it.

If you do file a protest, Then you follow the procedures regarding protests And live with the results of that protest.

Rule 119 - Protest/Appeal Procedures

The ball is in your court, do you want to pass or play? you have to weigh the ramifications of your actions and chose.

I have already brought it to the league's attention by involving the President. My/our main concerns are twofold: first, that the league secretary who is paid $3000 a year for doing the job does not know the rules, and, more importantly refuses to enforce them once he is made aware. Secondly, in this particular league, nothing is done to discourage pre/post bowling. The league allows for roving subs, and also allows for a fifth bowler on the roster in case a sub is needed for position rounds. Despite this, teams not showing up is a very common occurrence. I guess we'll see what happens before deciding whether or not to take the protest to the local association.

[bowl1820]

Also here's from the Rule about this situation.

111e/1 If a team is granted a pre-bowl or postponement and the opposing team is not notified,
are the games forfeited?
No. When bowling unopposed, the opposing team does not have to be notified (or agree to
a date) prior to the time of bowling, unless otherwise provided by league rule. Notification
of the opposing team is courtesy and games cannot be forfeited.

If the league adopted a rule requiring notification and the opposing team was not notified and filed a written protest, the league board would have the following options:

a. Games stand as bowled.
b. Null and void both teams’ scores and require both teams to re-bowl in direct opposition.


So Rob's league has a rule requiring notification, if he wants to protest it has to be in writing.

[bowl1820]

I have already brought it to the league's attention by involving the President. My/our main concerns are twofold: first, that the league secretary who is paid $3000 a year for doing the job does not know the rules, and, more importantly refuses to enforce them once he is made aware. Secondly, in this particular league, nothing is done to discourage pre/post bowling. The league allows for roving subs, and also allows for a fifth bowler on the roster in case a sub is needed for position rounds. Despite this, teams not showing up is a very common occurrence. I guess we'll see what happens before deciding whether or not to take the protest to the local association.

This what the league meeting at the beginning of the season is for.

The Secretary doesn't do their job, you don't vote for them. (if their not doing their job you get them threw out and replaced too)

If you want to limit pre/post bowling, then you make rules to discourage it.

If you can't change the rules and can't live with them the way they are. Then you don't join the league.

If everyone starts leaving the league, it will either change or die.

[Jessiewoodard57]

That means one pair of teams has to bowl on the "high side" each week. The high side and low side are very different. The older, more seasoned bowlers don't like bowling on the high side. So, two weeks ago, we were supposed to bowl one of the better teams, who the league president/secretary bowl on...and they didn't show. They pre-bowled. Why? Because they didn't want to bowl on the high side.


That league needs a new rule that if you per or post bowl you have to use a pair on the same side that you are scheduled to bowl on. what they are doing amounts to cheating.

[Blomer]

Rules are rules. If the President won't enforce them, they shouldn't be the President.

[fordman1]

How can you prove that they didn't try to contact you? Maybe they were given the wrong number. You had the opportunity to wait and bowl with them. Same lane conditions. Drop it and make sure the rule is corrected next season.

[RobLV1]

How can you prove that they didn't try to contact you? Maybe they were given the wrong number. You had the opportunity to wait and bowl with them. Same lane conditions. Drop it and make sure the rule is corrected next season.

I think that you are missing the point. Our team was there. Their team was not. The rule is clear: it is their responsibility to contact a league officer, AND the captain of the opposing team. It is not our responsibility to prove that they didn't try to contact us. It is their responsibility to contact us, not to just TRY. The issue is to put the onus of responsibility on the team that is not showing up, not punishing the team that did show up.

[fordman1]

Rob, so if you can't make to bowling and try to contact me and I recognize your name or number and choose not to answer what happens? You didn't contact me. You asked what we would do and that is what I would do.

[RobLV1]

Rob, so if you can't make to bowling and try to contact me and I recognize your name or number and choose not to answer what happens? You didn't contact me. You asked what we would do and that is what I would do.

Silly me. I was assuming some integrity on your part in this hypothetical situation! I guess I would have to figure out a way to get at least part of my team to show up to be where we had committed to be in the first place.

[fordman1]

Chill out I was trying to make a point. The rule is unrealistic. I say go ahead and protest if you feel that strongly. Do you still have to bowl within 40 pins of your avg. to win points?

[Mike White]

Chill out I was trying to make a point. The rule is unrealistic. I say go ahead and protest if you feel that strongly. Do you still have to bowl within 40 pins of your avg. to win points?

The 40 pin rule (4 person team) comes into effect if the team doesn't make up, and is declared a forfeit.

Also, it shouldn't be worded as "within 40 pins of average", it should be "40 pins below average, or better"

imagine a team that shoots 45 pins over average. They're not "within 40 pins of average".

As for a protest, if it goes to the association it will probably be upheld, mainly because someone representing Rob's team will be there to represent their case, but usually no one is interested enough to represent an opposing position.

Therefore the association tends to go with the "evidence" presented, and not do any real investigation of their own.

However, if someone represents the opposition and shows that the league has set a precedence of not enforcing the rule, the association is likely to deny the protest.

[Blacksox1]

Good thread Rob. I am not a fan of allowing post bowling or make ups for any reason. If for some reason a majority of team members were involved in an auto accident while car pooling, while driving to normal league night and time. Well that would make a difference, and I could see a post bowl. Some angle shooters will use everything for an edge. I have seen many tried in Vegas. Rob if you think, shenanigans are involved, by all means protest.

[RobLV1]

Good thread Rob. I am not a fan of allowing post bowling or make ups for any reason. If for some reason a majority of team members were involved in an auto accident while car pooling, while driving to normal league night and time. Well that would make a difference, and I could see a post bowl. Some angle shooters will use everything for an edge. I have seen many tried in Vegas. Rob if you think, shenanigans are involved, by all means protest.

It's really not a matter of thinking that "shenanigans" are involved. If anything, I tend to be too trusting of people's intentions. It's more a matter of drawing attention to a situation that has gotten really out of control with teams being allowed to miss any time they just don't feel like showing up. The rule about contacting the opposing team captain was put into place to discourage teams from missing unnecessarily, but the rule has not been enforced, or even noticed for that matter, by the league secretary. Until someone points out that the rule is there, it will continue to be ignored by league bowlers and officers alike.

[Tony]

Good thread Rob. I am not a fan of allowing post bowling or make ups for any reason. If for some reason a majority of team members were involved in an auto accident while car pooling, while driving to normal league night and time. Well that would make a difference, and I could see a post bowl. Some angle shooters will use everything for an edge. I have seen many tried in Vegas. Rob if you think, shenanigans are involved, by all means protest.

I'm with you on the post / makeup bowling, it should not be allowed at all. Some of the leagues I have been in have a simple "No post bowling allowed" they also have limits on prebowling, one league has a limit of 3 times per season for a person. The other one doesn't and we are constantly bowling against pre bowlers, it certainly changes the complexion of the game and some people seem to bowl much better when there is no distractions, ribbing, or stress of making the shot under pressure.

[Briantime]

I must confess these posts always befuddle me a bit...

I though league bowling was supposed to be fun. Seems like a lot of people get all bent out of shape about rule violations. I mean...it's a local bowling league, yes?

[Mike White]

I must confess these posts always befuddle me a bit...

I though league bowling was supposed to be fun. Seems like a lot of people get all bent out of shape about rule violations. I mean...it's a local bowling league, yes?

They didn't seem to be bent out of shape due to violations, until it effected them directly.

[RobLV1]

Apparently they are beginning to take the rule seriously. We were just contacted by the league with an offer to throw out our scores from Thursday, a bowl the other team head-to-head tomorrow morning. Oh, and by the way, we have been concerned by the rate of absences for the entire year. This was just the first time that it affected us directly so that we could bring it up to the league.

[Timmyb]

I must confess these posts always befuddle me a bit...

I though league bowling was supposed to be fun. Seems like a lot of people get all bent out of shape about rule violations. I mean...it's a local bowling league, yes?


Oh, dear, you haven't bowled in Milwaukee, have you?

[Briantime]

Oh, dear, you haven't bowled in Milwaukee, have you?



I have not. Why? Is Milwaukee known for having leagues that are no fun?

[Timmyb]

I have not. Why? Is Milwaukee known for having leagues that are no fun?



There is so much sniveling, whining, and bitching in the league I'm in that it borders on ridiculous. We had to protest to post-bowl two weeks, because we hadn't been added as a team yet to the league. The league secretary was the one doing the most complaining about it. Turns out, when I went to look at the schedule, his team was one of the teams we would have had to bowl had we been there. Turns out, we ended up taking 25 of the 30 points that he thought should have been forfeited. He's been a d**k to us since. We're out of there when league is done.

Long story short, this is not the first time I've run into this cattiness with the higher average leagues around here. It's why I stopped bowling scratch leagues a long time ago.

[RobLV1]

The situation in our league is just the opposite. As I said, it's a huge league (60 teams that fill the center), and while some of the teams take the league a little bit seriously (it's a handicapped league, so taking it seriously is defined as showing up and keeping current with league fees), many do not. Unfortunately the league secretary is really not a bowler, a just does things the way they've always been done. The rule about having to notify the opposing team captain and giving the other team a chance to compete at the same time is a new rule. Unfortunately, the secretary didn't notice. The only reason that this rule was added is because of the 25' of head oil that that house puts down before league. Imagine bowling on a pair with 25' of oil, with criss-crosses of oil on the last 35' from the kids that bowled on bumpers all afternoon. Some pairs are virtually impossible, but if it's the same for both teams, then no-one really cares. If, however, a team is allowed to make up first thing in the morning on fresh oil, then they have an incredible advantage. If no-one says anything, then teams tend to take advantage.

[Timmyb]

The situation in our league is just the opposite. As I said, it's a huge league (60 teams that fill the center), and while some of the teams take the league a little bit seriously (it's a handicapped league, so taking it seriously is defined as showing up and keeping current with league fees), many do not. Unfortunately the league secretary is really not a bowler, a just does things the way they've always been done. The rule about having to notify the opposing team captain and giving the other team a chance to compete at the same time is a new rule. Unfortunately, the secretary didn't notice. The only reason that this rule was added is because of the 25' of head oil that that house puts down before league. Imagine bowling on a pair with 25' of oil, with criss-crosses of oil on the last 35' from the kids that bowled on bumpers all afternoon. Some pairs are virtually impossible, but if it's the same for both teams, then no-one really cares. If, however, a team is allowed to make up first thing in the morning on fresh oil, then they have an incredible advantage. If no-one says anything, then teams tend to take advantage.


I can imagine that gets to be an issue with the bigger houses you have there. The biggest house here now is 36 lanes. Most are 12, 16, maybe 24. I guess if you coop guys up in a smaller area, they get testy! :rolleyes:

[Mike White]

The situation in our league is just the opposite. As I said, it's a huge league (60 teams that fill the center), and while some of the teams take the league a little bit seriously (it's a handicapped league, so taking it seriously is defined as showing up and keeping current with league fees), many do not. Unfortunately the league secretary is really not a bowler, a just does things the way they've always been done. The rule about having to notify the opposing team captain and giving the other team a chance to compete at the same time is a new rule. Unfortunately, the secretary didn't notice. The only reason that this rule was added is because of the 25' of head oil that that house puts down before league. Imagine bowling on a pair with 25' of oil, with criss-crosses of oil on the last 35' from the kids that bowled on bumpers all afternoon. Some pairs are virtually impossible, but if it's the same for both teams, then no-one really cares. If, however, a team is allowed to make up first thing in the morning on fresh oil, then they have an incredible advantage. If no-one says anything, then teams tend to take advantage.

Back in 89/90 during the limited distance dressing days, they only stripped the lanes on Tuesday Early am, and Friday Early am.

With the exception of Tuesday, and Friday, everyday was just oil on top of existing oil, with no cleaning.

I bowled on both Monday, and Thursday, which by your reasoning would be the worst days.

On Monday that season, I shot 300, 299, and a 771 high series which was high in that scratch league.

On Thursday that season, I shot a couple of 289s, and a 791 high series which was high in that scratch league also.

Maybe the problem is, you haven't been using the right ball.

[RobLV1]

Back in 89/90 during the limited distance dressing days, they only stripped the lanes on Tuesday Early am, and Friday Early am.

With the exception of Tuesday, and Friday, everyday was just oil on top of existing oil, with no cleaning.

I bowled on both Monday, and Thursday, which by your reasoning would be the worst days.

On Monday that season, I shot 300, 299, and a 771 high series which was high in that scratch league.

On Thursday that season, I shot a couple of 289s, and a 791 high series which was high in that scratch league also.

Maybe the problem is, you haven't been using the right ball.

I too bowled in several leagues during the eighties on days where the lanes were freshly stripped. I remember to this day one night where twice I left the baby split and put the ball between the three and the ten without touching either pin, and that was using urethane! This is not a matter of just using weak equipment. One of my teammates on Thursday night is a former PBA Tour bowler, and he will often shoot 700+ one night and 550 the next week, depending on the use of the particular lanes during the day. The entire issue with this thread is that due to the way the lanes are dressed, scores fluctuate wildly from pair to pair. No-one cares about the scores, as long as the conditions are the same for everyone. When teams are allowed to pre-bowl or make-up without giving the opposing team the opportunity to bowl on the same conditions, huge inequities occur. No one is whining about low scores, Mike, we are just trying to make sure that everyone gets a fair shake. That's why the rule was put into effect.

[Mike White]

I too bowled in several leagues during the eighties on days where the lanes were freshly stripped. I remember to this day one night where twice I left the baby split and put the ball between the three and the ten without touching either pin, and that was using urethane! This is not a matter of just using weak equipment. One of my teammates on Thursday night is a former PBA Tour bowler, and he will often shoot 700+ one night and 550 the next week, depending on the use of the particular lanes during the day. The entire issue with this thread is that due to the way the lanes are dressed, scores fluctuate wildly from pair to pair. No-one cares about the scores, as long as the conditions are the same for everyone. When teams are allowed to pre-bowl or make-up without giving the opposing team the opportunity to bowl on the same conditions, huge inequities occur. No one is whining about low scores, Mike, we are just trying to make sure that everyone gets a fair shake. That's why the rule was put into effect.

My example was not about freshly stripped lanes.

Our Monday league bowled on lanes that hadn't been stripped since Friday Am, meaning we were bowling on Friday's oil, Saturday's oil, Sunday's oil, and Monday's oil, and add to that, it was a 2nd shift league.

Same idea for Thursday. Tuesday's oil, Wednesday's oil, and Thursday's oil, also a 2nd shift league.

As for everyone getting a fair shake, that's pretty much impossible.

Some people are going to do better on fresh, and some people won't.

[RobLV1]

My example was not about freshly stripped lanes.

Our Monday league bowled on lanes that hadn't been stripped since Friday Am, meaning we were bowling on Friday's oil, Saturday's oil, Sunday's oil, and Monday's oil, and add to that, it was a 2nd shift league.

Same idea for Thursday. Tuesday's oil, Wednesday's oil, and Thursday's oil, also a 2nd shift league.

As for everyone getting a fair shake, that's pretty much impossible.

Some people are going to do better on fresh, and some people won't.

When two teams bowl on the same pair of lanes at the same time, that's a fair shake. Whoever bowls the best wins. I don't know how it can be any fairer than that!

[Mike White]

When two teams bowl on the same pair of lanes at the same time, that's a fair shake. Whoever bowls the best wins. I don't know how it can be any fairer than that!

First off you're bowling on lane conditions that are designed to increase scores.

Problem is, that design doesn't help everyone the same.

Modern bowling balls help those with weak releases obtain enough entry angle to carry.

Is that giving the guy who developed a stronger release a fair shake?

If they only changed the ball, that would be fine, because those players would have to learn to throw a banana ball, because it sure isn't going to go straight, unless it dies.

So now instead of seeing all these banana balls, we have a wall of oil to remove the need for the banana.

Scoring now isn't about who bowls best, it's about who conforms to the design of the oil pattern.

For some people, that's not much change from their natural style, for others, it's a lot more.

Is that a fair shake?

And what does fair shake mean?

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/fair%20shake

If fair shake means the same as "even odds, "fifty-fifty", or "even chance" then the one who bowls better should still only have a fifty-fifty chance of winning.

[fordman1]

If I read the original post correctly you had an opportunity to bowl head to head. They were going to make it up. You got your notification.

[Mike White]

If I read the original post correctly you had an opportunity to bowl head to head. They were going to make it up. You got your notification.

I think the difference is between notification, and the answer to an inquiry.

[Tony]

I must confess these posts always befuddle me a bit...

I though league bowling was supposed to be fun. Seems like a lot of people get all bent out of shape about rule violations. I mean...it's a local bowling league, yes?

So far on the teams I am on we haven't filed any complaints but lets be honest, it gets old when you find guys / teams trying to make up their own rules. After all it's a competition although a friendly one for low stakes and we keep that in mind.
Have you ever played a game of any type and caught someone cheating over and over ? It might not bother some people but competitive people usually aren't too thrilled playing against people that cheat.

[Tony]

Back in 89/90 during the limited distance dressing days, they only stripped the lanes on Tuesday Early am, and Friday Early am.

With the exception of Tuesday, and Friday, everyday was just oil on top of existing oil, with no cleaning.

I bowled on both Monday, and Thursday, which by your reasoning would be the worst days.

On Monday that season, I shot 300, 299, and a 771 high series which was high in that scratch league.

On Thursday that season, I shot a couple of 289s, and a 791 high series which was high in that scratch league also.

Maybe the problem is, you haven't been using the right ball.

Isn't bowling intended to be competitors bowling on the same lanes at the same time.
By your example you're suggesting that teams should be able to bowl anytime on any lane conditions and still call it a fair competition?

Seems like allowing that creates some problems, lets say we are bowling in a sport league with varying patterns, so whenever we are on a pattern you score poorly on you go and prebowl on a house pattern, and that should be fine with the rest of the league ....

Where the 90's come into play on this issue is questionable, why does it matter what the lanes, balls and conditions were then to now.
It fine if you have issues or disagree with how lanes, dressing and balls are built managed and handled between the olden days and now but it doesn't nullify everything since 1990. The game has moved on and it's probably not going back.

[RobLV1]

Isn't bowling intended to be competitors bowling on the same lanes at the same time.
By your example you're suggesting that teams should be able to bowl anytime on any lane conditions and still call it a fair competition?

Seems like allowing that creates some problems, lets say we are bowling in a sport league with varying patterns, so whenever we are on a pattern you score poorly on you go and prebowl on a house pattern, and that should be fine with the rest of the league ....

Where the 90's come into play on this issue is questionable, why does it matter what the lanes, balls and conditions were then to now.
It fine if you have issues or disagree with how lanes, dressing and balls are built managed and handled between the olden days and now but it doesn't nullify everything since 1990. The game has moved on and it's probably not going back.

So true! Bowling is not going back to pre-resin days, no matter how right, or wrong, that may be.

[Mike White]

So true! Bowling is not going back to pre-resin days, no matter how right, or wrong, that may be.

That may be, but bowling is also headed towards open bowling, and moonlight bowling.

League bowling is circling the drain.

[jab5325]

I'm not a stickler for rules, but, if the ones on the books aren't enforced....what's the point of having them?

My Wednesday (scratch) league has to have an approved sub list. If you haven't bowled in the league before, one of the members has to "invite" you, or otherwise get approval from league officers. No subs allowed for positional rounds unless it's due to injury or something very extreme.

Well, on the first positional night of the season, a team shows up with a guy who had never bowled in the league before. In essence, a double no-no. The captains voted to allow the guy to bowl, and he threw a sub-500 series. We've all been there--not picking on the guy at all. But, in a case like this......why even have rules? I'm not a captain in this league, and I don't care much about the rule.

My thing is....if you voted at one point to implement this and you can change it whenever you want, why have the rule at all?

[Mike White]

I'm not a stickler for rules, but, if the ones on the books aren't enforced....what's the point of having them?

My Wednesday (scratch) league has to have an approved sub list. If you haven't bowled in the league before, one of the members has to "invite" you, or otherwise get approval from league officers. No subs allowed for positional rounds unless it's due to injury or something very extreme.

Well, on the first positional night of the season, a team shows up with a guy who had never bowled in the league before. In essence, a double no-no. The captains voted to allow the guy to bowl, and he threw a sub-500 series. We've all been there--not picking on the guy at all. But, in a case like this......why even have rules? I'm not a captain in this league, and I don't care much about the rule.

My thing is....if you voted at one point to implement this and you can change it whenever you want, why have the rule at all?


That is a rather strange rule, mainly the part of "or otherwise get approval from league officers".

If no member is willing to "invite" you, but you can get approval from league officers, which team (of non inviters) are you going to sub for?

[fordman1]

As a long time secretary I sit down every summer on the patio and reread my By-laws. I make my sit and listen to see if she understands what they mean. (she isn't a league bowler anymore) If I find anything that is confusing or just plain unworkable I make sure it is corrected. The one thing that is the hardest is postponements, make ups, pre bowl etc. Everyone has an opinion as to what is right or wrong. You will never get a consensus.
The rule in this situation is silly. If you have an emergency the morning of league you may not have time to notify anyone but the center or sec. You must have reasonable rules and live by them. Like I said before if you get to the center and find out the other team is going to make it you have a right to find a time you can both agree upon and bowl head to head. I would rather bowl with the whole league and win a mystery or other pot.

[jab5325]

That is a rather strange rule, mainly the part of "or otherwise get approval from league officers".

If no member is willing to "invite" you, but you can get approval from league officers, which team (of non inviters) are you going to sub for?

Not disagreeing at all--it's also not the only strange thing in the bylaws.

Nevertheless, it's a bunch of good guys who are very serious about the sport.....so it's a lot of fun.

[Tony]

That may be, but bowling is also headed towards open bowling, and moonlight bowling.

League bowling is circling the drain.

Of course we know that league bowling has been on the decline for a number of years but "circling the drain" seems a little overly pessimistic.
The has been some resurgence in leagues around some area's where they have implemented beer and pizza leagues, attracting some former league bowlers and some new bowlers.
League bowling has survived for quite a while and it might be a little premature to write it off just yet. You never know what new idea's could advance the sport.

[Tony]

That is a rather strange rule, mainly the part of "or otherwise get approval from league officers".

If no member is willing to "invite" you, but you can get approval from league officers, which team (of non inviters) are you going to sub for?

In the case when the house is the league secretary, we have seen people show up from other nights, centers and leagues at the front desk and had them announce they have
bowlers if anyone needs a sub. It's a little strange but it seems like it kind of explains a scenario when this might apply.

[Tony]

As a long time secretary I sit down every summer on the patio and reread my By-laws. I make my sit and listen to see if she understands what they mean. (she isn't a league bowler anymore) If I find anything that is confusing or just plain unworkable I make sure it is corrected. The one thing that is the hardest is postponements, make ups, pre bowl etc. Everyone has an opinion as to what is right or wrong. You will never get a consensus.
The rule in this situation is silly. If you have an emergency the morning of league you may not have time to notify anyone but the center or sec. You must have reasonable rules and live by them. Like I said before if you get to the center and find out the other team is going to make it you have a right to find a time you can both agree upon and bowl head to head. I would rather bowl with the whole league and win a mystery or other pot.

In case of the post bowling rule, how often have seen post bowling used for a legitimate purpose ? Seems like most of the time it's used to create an advantage for the team using it.

[fordman1]

Tony I don't think I have ever seen a team do it for an advantage. We have lucky strike, lucky digit mysteries that pay $220 the 1st & 2nd game and the same for progressive. Plus lots of pots. No one wants to miss We are in week 32 and have given over 110 K so far. We bowl on fresh oil as do the make up and post bowling.

[Mike White]

In the case when the house is the league secretary, we have seen people show up from other nights, centers and leagues at the front desk and had them announce they have
bowlers if anyone needs a sub. It's a little strange but it seems like it kind of explains a scenario when this might apply.

Ok, someone shows up to the desk and wants to sub.

A team happens to need a sub.

The league officers say that bowler hasn't been approved.

Well, the team just decides to "invite" the sub.

Still don't see where the Officer's Approval comes in to play.

If a team wants someone to sub, they are "invited".

If the team doesn't want someone, I seriously doubt a league official can force the team to take an "officer approved sub" against the team's will.

[Tony]

Ok, someone shows up to the desk and wants to sub.

A team happens to need a sub.

The league officers say that bowler hasn't been approved.

Well, the team just decides to "invite" the sub.

Still don't see where the Officer's Approval comes in to play.

If a team wants someone to sub, they are "invited".

If the team doesn't want someone, I seriously doubt a league official can force the team to take an "officer approved sub" against the team's will.

Yes, that's the closest example of how is might apply I have seen, maybe the league has a rule that subs must be approved. Not sure what would call for that. There is one league I was in that the house built most of the teams by putting random bowlers together and when there were vacancies they would fill them but they let anyone sub....?

[Aslan]

I must confess these posts always befuddle me a bit...

I though league bowling was supposed to be fun. Seems like a lot of people get all bent out of shape about rule violations. I mean...it's a local bowling league, yes?

The problem is, how fun is something if you know it's unfair?

Would you use a slot machine if you knew it never actually paid out?

Would you go watch a sporting event where you already knew the outcome?

If someone was playing cards with you...but had an extra deck in their pocket, would you still play?

I know you'll see these as extreme examples, but once a sport loses it's "fairness"...it's no longer a "sport". It's just an "exercise"...something to "do" when you have nothing else to do.

I can beat you bowling every single time if I can simply change the scores at will. You score a 264...I change my scores and get a 266. I miss a single-pin...I pretend I picked it up. I just decide that splits for me are automatic conversions and for you, automatic misses. I don't think you'd want to play very long. Even if you're really, really bored...you'd get annoyed that the playing field isn't level.

What I find interesting is...there are some things we talk about on these boards...where people are in general agreement that rules are rules and rules should be enforced. In other situations, there are many of the same people claiming the rules are silly. I think each person decides for themselves how important rules are.

Common rule violations I see almost every week during lane play:

1) Application of a foreign substance to bowling shoes (powder).
2) Use of non-approved cleaners/polishes or re-surfacing balls during play.
3) Not wearing bowling shoes.
4) Crossing over the foul line during shot delivery.
5) Use of bowling balls outside USBC specifications.

As to #1..many bowlers have no idea they're not supposed to do that. The ones that do, don't care.
As to #2, a rule that is often enforced at the PBA level...but not at the amateur levels.
As to #3, it's usually a bowling center rule...but often times it's ignored by the "planters" that don't slide.
As to #4, 2 out of 3 bowling centers I bowl at turn off the foul line buzzer or it doesn't work.
As to #5, like I said before...most pro shops don't actually weigh balls after drilling to see if they need balance holes. I'd bet roughly 1/4 of the balls on league night at most centers would fail.

Are these "big deals"? Probably not. The first one is...because those that plant don't realize how slippery you can make an approach for those that do slide. And those that do slide don't understand how dangerous applying that powder is to those that plant. I've even seen some people apply it "knowing" it would mess with the other team. It got so bad at one point, the President made a rule that if powder was laying around in the bowling area...the team could forfeit a game....which didn't really stop people from applying it to their shoes outside the bowling area...but they got sick of people falling and hurting themselves.

[bowl1820]

Common rule violations I see almost every week during lane play:

1) Application of a foreign substance to bowling shoes (powder).
2) Use of non-approved cleaners/polishes or re-surfacing balls during play.
3) Not wearing bowling shoes.
4) Crossing over the foul line during shot delivery.
5) Use of bowling balls outside USBC specifications.

As to #1..many bowlers have no idea they're not supposed to do that. The ones that do, don't care.
As to #2, a rule that is often enforced at the PBA level...but not at the amateur levels.
As to #3, it's usually a bowling center rule...but often times it's ignored by the "planters" that don't slide.
As to #4, 2 out of 3 bowling centers I bowl at turn off the foul line buzzer or it doesn't work.
As to #5, like I said before...most pro shops don't actually weigh balls after drilling to see if they need balance holes. I'd bet roughly 1/4 of the balls on league night at most centers would fail.



#1- The application of a foreign substance to bowling shoes (ie: powder) is not a rule violation, The rule is you can't get a foreign substance on the approach.

The problem here is that people improperly use them and track it on the approach. If used properly it's unlikely that you'll get it on the approach.

#2- Yes this happens, usually it's not enforced because nobody will go complain.

#3- As long as the shoes are non-marking and dedicated to bowling (Not the shoes you wore in of the street) they are bowling shoes.

#4- If the foul lights are not working, then it's part of the team Captains job to watch for fouls and call them. If they sit back and don't say anything you either say something to them or live with it.

"Commonly Asked Question – Rule 5c.
5c/1 What happens if our foul lights are not available?
If not available, members of the league should be advised the captains are responsible for the calling of fouls or someone can be designated to act as a foul judge."

#5- Well the good ones do. If not, then you as the buyer should be asking to have the static weights verified before you leave the shop.

[Ptnomore]

Neither of my leagues play that rule. In the Fri Night Mixed league, a money league but more relaxed, if a team or bowler is going to be absent, they have the option to pre-bowl, or use their absentee scores which is their average minus 10 pins. However, a minimum of 3 bowlers from your team must be present and bowl, on league night OR pre-bowl to avoid a forfeit. In the Tues Mens league, bigger money, more competitive, if you aint there, you use your absentee score which is average minus 15 pins, and again...3 persons from that team must bowl on the designated league night to avoid forfeit. There is no pre-bowling in that league.

I like simple rules. Might be harsh and difficult, but it avoids conflict, both personal as well as between teams.

[Aslan]

#1- The application of a foreign substance to bowling shoes (ie: powder) is not a rule violation, The rule is you can't get a foreign substance on the approach.

The problem here is that people improperly use them and track it on the approach. If used properly it's unlikely that you'll get it on the approach.
Most houses or leagues actually add the rule that you can't powder your shoes for the simple reason that it's nearly impossible not to get it on the approach. And it doesn't take much to cause a safety risk. Centers, for obvious and multiple reasons, prefer people not get hurt. I agree though, it IS possible to apply powder to your shoes and with enough work get the excess off and not get it on the approach....but that's not how most bowlers do it.


##2- Yes this happens, usually it's not enforced because nobody will go complain.

#4- If the foul lights are not working, then it's part of the team Captains job to watch for fouls and call them. If they sit back and don't say anything you either say something to them or live with it.
These ones are the same thing....kinda related to Rob's dilemma. Nobody wants to be "that guy" that complains and causes problems. It's just not "worth it". Once enough money is at stake...then it's kinda worth it....but still, nobody wants to be "that guy". Nobody wants to get punched in the face....even if they are technically correct.


##3- As long as the shoes are non-marking and dedicated to bowling (Not the shoes you wore in of the street) they are bowling shoes.
True. Technically, you could probably bowl barefoot or in socks and not technically violate a rule. It's usually a house rule and I've never seen anyone violate that rule that had "dedicated bowling shoes". If they had "dedicated bowling shoes"....they'd just buy bowling shoes. But Iceman is a good example of this....he said he bowled in sandals. I don't think they marked anything...but I don't think they were dedicated to bowling.

It's a bigger problem in cold weather states. I have no idea how states in the winter areas during snow season keep their approaches in good condition.


##4- If the foul lights are not working, then it's part of the team Captains job to watch for fouls and call them. If they sit back and don't say anything you either say something to them or live with it.

"Commonly Asked Question – Rule 5c.
5c/1 What happens if our foul lights are not available?
If not available, members of the league should be advised the captains are responsible for the calling of fouls or someone can be designated to act as a foul judge."
Remember the scene from "The Big Lebowski"? Well....try to call a foul on someone. It likely will end in some fairly serious punches being thrown. And there's no way to know for 'sure' if they were over.

If I ever played a team that was going over a "LOT"...and it was obvious...I might go to the league secretary or President and the center and ask that they ensure the foul lights are on for league play.

Foul lights are like "Offsides" on hockey video games. Most people have no problem turning them off. And for centers, it's one less thing to maintain. Not to mention the comic relief when you have a tournament there or go to Vegas...where the foul lights are ON...and you watch everyone foul. I call that both comic relief and 'justice'.


##5- Well the good ones do. If not, then you as the buyer should be asking to have the static weights verified before you leave the shop. Yup.

And thanks for this response. It's always good to know what is an official rule and an unofficial or house rule. I've heard a lot of bowling arguments where people claim something is a USBC rule when you kinda know it isn't.

[Aslan]

We had a "rule" issue come up twice...thought I'd mention it...just FYI.

1) 4-person mixed teams.
One team was missing 2 bowlers and got two high average subs. The problem was, in a mixed league...you usually need at least ONE female bowler. And if you get subs...a male sub can't bowl for the female bowler.

Our team didn't know that until afterwards...and didn't protest. But, after getting stomped the first game...we checked and then agreed as a team to let it go this time...but not next time.

2) I wanted to switch teams this season due to a "drama problem" with one of our female bowlers. The team captain ended up ditching the drama queen and keeping me. But I found out from the league secretary...that in order for me to switch teams after a certain point in the season, I needed approval from my team captain, the other team's captain, and the league President or Secretary or vice-President. I did know that. It makes sense though.

[mc_runner]

2) I wanted to switch teams this season due to a "drama problem" with one of our female bowlers. The team captain ended up ditching the drama queen and keeping me. But I found out from the league secretary...that in order for me to switch teams after a certain point in the season, I needed approval from my team captain, the other team's captain, and the league President or Secretary or vice-President. I did know that. It makes sense though.

This one's pretty common and in most of the leagues I've bowled around here, except our by-laws usually say it needs to be voted on and approved by a majority of all team captains in addition to the approvals by team captains of the 2 teams and officers. Makes sense if you think bout it, it protects against someone establishing a low average then moving to another team. Or vice versa. I imagine at some point there was a reason this rule was put into place, and is as common as it is.

This only tends to be in money/more serious leagues though, the casual leagues don't really seem to care. I remember needing a win to go into a rolloff a few years back, and the team bowling against us used a different team's full-time member as a "sub" (the only league rule impacting that was if the other team had a full team, their extra person could sub elsewhere if they showed up). They stomped us. I was mad at the time but since no money and such, I decided it wasn't worth it to even bring up again.

[Briantime]

The problem is, how fun is something if you know it's unfair?

Would you use a slot machine if you knew it never actually paid out?

Would you go watch a sporting event where you already knew the outcome?

If someone was playing cards with you...but had an extra deck in their pocket, would you still play?

I know you'll see these as extreme examples, but once a sport loses it's "fairness"...it's no longer a "sport". It's just an "exercise"...something to "do" when you have nothing else to do.

I can beat you bowling every single time if I can simply change the scores at will. You score a 264...I change my scores and get a 266. I miss a single-pin...I pretend I picked it up. I just decide that splits for me are automatic conversions and for you, automatic misses. I don't think you'd want to play very long. Even if you're really, really bored...you'd get annoyed that the playing field isn't level.

What I find interesting is...there are some things we talk about on these boards...where people are in general agreement that rules are rules and rules should be enforced. In other situations, there are many of the same people claiming the rules are silly. I think each person decides for themselves how important rules are.

Common rule violations I see almost every week during lane play:

1) Application of a foreign substance to bowling shoes (powder).
2) Use of non-approved cleaners/polishes or re-surfacing balls during play.
3) Not wearing bowling shoes.
4) Crossing over the foul line during shot delivery.
5) Use of bowling balls outside USBC specifications.

As to #1..many bowlers have no idea they're not supposed to do that. The ones that do, don't care.
As to #2, a rule that is often enforced at the PBA level...but not at the amateur levels.
As to #3, it's usually a bowling center rule...but often times it's ignored by the "planters" that don't slide.
As to #4, 2 out of 3 bowling centers I bowl at turn off the foul line buzzer or it doesn't work.
As to #5, like I said before...most pro shops don't actually weigh balls after drilling to see if they need balance holes. I'd bet roughly 1/4 of the balls on league night at most centers would fail.

Are these "big deals"? Probably not. The first one is...because those that plant don't realize how slippery you can make an approach for those that do slide. And those that do slide don't understand how dangerous applying that powder is to those that plant. I've even seen some people apply it "knowing" it would mess with the other team. It got so bad at one point, the President made a rule that if powder was laying around in the bowling area...the team could forfeit a game....which didn't really stop people from applying it to their shoes outside the bowling area...but they got sick of people falling and hurting themselves.

I guess I come at this from a different point of view.

With the exception of something in the extreme or that might injure someone, it really does not matter to me what someone else is doing in a league because...brace yourself...my ultimate goal is not winning, or even competing. If it was, I may feel differently about it, but I often see rules violations griped about on this and other forums that bear little or no impact on the final result. In that case, to me, people are just never going to have a good time bowling if they are preoccupied with those things. And, if it is not fun, why do it?

My fun does not depend on others knowing and following the rule book.

[bowl1820]

We had a "rule" issue come up twice...thought I'd mention it...just FYI.

1) 4-person mixed teams.
One team was missing 2 bowlers and got two high average subs. The problem was, in a mixed league...you usually need at least ONE female bowler. And if you get subs...a male sub can't bowl for the female bowler.

That is all dependent on exactly how the league rules are written.

In a true mixed league (USBC rule 100b. Mixed), teams can be made up of all men or all women or any combination there of. Also a substitute or replacement may be of either gender unless otherwise provided by league rules.

So unless it's specified in the league rules who can sub for who, then men can sub for women.



2) I wanted to switch teams this season due to a "drama problem" with one of our female bowlers. The team captain ended up ditching the drama queen and keeping me. But I found out from the league secretary...that in order for me to switch teams after a certain point in the season, I needed approval from my team captain, the other team's captain, and the league President or Secretary or vice-President. I did know that. It makes sense though.

Just a note: Transferring to another team is covered by USBC Rule 107b (unless the league makes it's own rule.)

107b. Transferring Team Membership
Unless otherwise provided by league rule, a bowler listed on a team’s roster and whose scores have
counted, may transfer to another team in the league during the season provided:
1. Adult leagues: Two-thirds of the league’s team captains agree to the transfer. This provision does
not apply to USBC closed leagues, or to any league which adopts its own rule to govern transfers.

[Mike White]

I guess I come at this from a different point of view.

With the exception of something in the extreme or that might injure someone, it really does not matter to me what someone else is doing in a league because...brace yourself...my ultimate goal is not winning, or even competing. If it was, I may feel differently about it, but I often see rules violations griped about on this and other forums that bear little or no impact on the final result. In that case, to me, people are just never going to have a good time bowling if they are preoccupied with those things. And, if it is not fun, why do it?

My fun does not depend on others knowing and following the rule book.


And that is the direction league bowling is taking... Circling the drain.

[Mike White]

We had a "rule" issue come up twice...thought I'd mention it...just FYI.

1) 4-person mixed teams.
One team was missing 2 bowlers and got two high average subs. The problem was, in a mixed league...you usually need at least ONE female bowler. And if you get subs...a male sub can't bowl for the female bowler.

Our team didn't know that until afterwards...and didn't protest. But, after getting stomped the first game...we checked and then agreed as a team to let it go this time...but not next time.


We had a dispute similar in one of the Senior leagues.

On the day the next season started, someone from the local association attended to meeting to explain the meaning of a "mixed league".

A mixed league does not mean a male and a female on every team.

It just means there is at least one male, and at least one female in the league.

Oddly enough the dispute came up at the end of the previous season, about a team that wanted to be all female.

The logic in their case was due to females having a longer life span, finding enough males old enough to bowl in the league, who were still physically able to bowl was becoming more difficult.

[Briantime]

And that is the direction league bowling is taking... Circling the drain.

People bowling for the fun and love of the game is the end of league bowling? Really?

[classygranny]

People bowling for the fun and love of the game is the end of league bowling? Really?

No, people not caring if the rules are followed or not - making an unlevel playing field.

When we started our Monday evening, the first night a guy on the opposite team knocked the 10 pin over after the ball went in the gutter. He wouldn't change the score - said he "planned it that way". Told his teammate to back him (I have very good hearing) and we got into a scrap over it until the secretary had to intervene and he changed the score, but "protested".

Later in the league, I saw him do the same thing - he didn't change the score, and no one on their lanes said anything. I told one of the other teams members and he said he didn't see it so never said anything.

This, in my opinion is against the rules....and cheating. Any intentional breaking of the rules is considered cheating in my humble opinion.

[Mike White]

No, people not caring if the rules are followed or not - making an unlevel playing field.

When we started our Monday evening, the first night a guy on the opposite team knocked the 10 pin over after the ball went in the gutter. He wouldn't change the score - said he "planned it that way". Told his teammate to back him (I have very good hearing) and we got into a scrap over it until the secretary had to intervene and he changed the score, but "protested".

Later in the league, I saw him do the same thing - he didn't change the score, and no one on their lanes said anything. I told one of the other teams members and he said he didn't see it so never said anything.

This, in my opinion is against the rules....and cheating. Any intentional breaking of the rules is considered cheating in my humble opinion.

Aslan do you hear that?

[RobLV1]

An update:

At the time that we pointed out to the league secretary that it was a league rule that the other team notify a league officer and the opposing team of their intention to miss league and make up, we were told by the secretary that we could "leave and not bowl, but it's your responsibility to contact the other team and schedule a makeup at their convenience." Really.!?! We bowled anyway, and informed the secretary the we would be filing a protest with the local association. Two days later, the league President called our team captain and told him that they had decided to give us the opportunity to throw out our scores and bowl the other team head to head the next morning (Sunday). We opted to do this and re-bowled the next morning. We won two of three and totals. Last night, we were informed that the league officers were in error and that the other team had protested with the local USBC and were told that since we bowled, our scores would have to count.

Here's the problem we have with this entire scenario: the other team did not follow the rule about informing us of their intention to miss bowling and make-up the game, the League Secretary was not even aware of the rule, the League Secretary and the League President was not aware of the USBC rule that games could not be re-bowled for any reason, and we gave up our Sunday morning for nothing. The bottom line is that we not only were aware of the league rule and followed it, did what were told to do, and ended up losing three points. Before any of you start in about being petty and cut-throat over three points, let me assure you that this is not the case. We could care less about the three points. What we do care about is the fact that we have league officers that are not aware of the rules, and are afraid to enforce them once they are made aware of them. In the case of the League Secretary, he still refuses to acknowledge any wrong-doing on his part at all despite the fact that he has not enforced the league rule all year.

[mc_runner]

Time to vote in a new secretary next year.

[bowl1820]

An update:

At the time that we pointed out to the league secretary that it was a league rule that the other team notify a league officer and the opposing team of their intention to miss league and make up, we were told by the secretary that we could "leave and not bowl, but it's your responsibility to contact the other team and schedule a makeup at their convenience." Really.!?! We bowled anyway, and informed the secretary the we would be filing a protest with the local association. Two days later, the league President called our team captain and told him that they had decided to give us the opportunity to throw out our scores and bowl the other team head to head the next morning (Sunday). We opted to do this and re-bowled the next morning. We won two of three and totals.



Last night, we were informed that the league officers were in error and that the other team had protested with the local USBC and were told that since we bowled, our scores would have to count.
According to the USBC rule book that is wrong.


USBC Rule book Page 50,Commonly Asked Questions – Rule 111e.
111e/1 If a team is granted a pre-bowl or postponement and the opposing team is not notified,
are the games forfeited?
No. When bowling unopposed, the opposing team does not have to be notified (or agree to
a date) prior to the time of bowling, unless otherwise provided by league rule. Notification
of the opposing team is courtesy and games cannot be forfeited. If the league adopted a rule
requiring notification and the opposing team was not notified and filed a written protest, the
league board would have the following options:
a. Games stand as bowled.
b. Null and void both teams’ scores and require both teams to re-bowl in direct opposition.






Here's the problem we have with this entire scenario: the other team did not follow the rule about informing us of their intention to miss bowling and make-up the game, the League Secretary was not even aware of the rule, the League Secretary and the League President was not aware of the USBC rule that games could not be re-bowled for any reason, and we gave up our Sunday morning for nothing.

Option "B" above is right on point with what happened: The team didn't notify you, the officers null & voided the score and had you bowl head to head. The officers weren't in error.

The fly in the ointment could be where they gave you the option to "leave and not bowl" and you chose to bowl. The Assoc. may have looked at that and said that since you chose to bowl then, then those scores are the ones that should stand.

Direct the question to the national rules dept. ( rules@bowl.com ) for a better ruling.


The bottom line is that we not only were aware of the league rule and followed it, did what were told to do, and ended up losing three points. Before any of you start in about being petty and cut-throat over three points, let me assure you that this is not the case. We could care less about the three points. What we do care about is the fact that we have league officers that are not aware of the rules, and are afraid to enforce them once they are made aware of them. In the case of the League Secretary, he still refuses to acknowledge any wrong-doing on his part at all despite the fact that he has not enforced the league rule all year.

If the Officers are not doing the job, you either have them kicked out and replaced (Rule 115 - Disciplinary Procedures
115a. Dismissal of a League Officer or Player) or next season vote in new ones.

[fordman1]

Also here's from the Rule about this situation.

111e/1 If a team is granted a pre-bowl or postponement and the opposing team is not notified,
are the games forfeited?
No. When bowling unopposed, the opposing team does not have to be notified (or agree to
a date) prior to the time of bowling, unless otherwise provided by league rule. Notification
of the opposing team is courtesy and games cannot be forfeited.

If the league adopted a rule requiring notification and the opposing team was not notified and filed a written protest, the league board would have the following options:

a. Games stand as bowled.
b. Null and void both teams’ scores and require both teams to re-bowl in direct opposition.


So Rob's league has a rule requiring notification, if he wants to protest it has to be in writing.

The rules are the rules.
This is a terrible rule.
As a long time secretary of a 5 man 24 team league I have every bowler in the league including subs 184 bowlers phone number. I have tried many times to get in touch with one team or another and either the number is no longer in service or it goes to voice mail. It is hard to get in touch with people.
How much time must be spent trying to get in touch with a team? Can you leave a voice mail? The protest was correct if that is what you want to do. The fact the officers of the league told you wrong about making up the games and made you bowl on Sunday and the scores don't count is a shame.
Next year why don't you run for President of Secretary? Read the rules before the organizational meeting before the 1st week and make a list of stupidly worded rules and ones you want changed. That is the way to go. And good Luck!

[Mike White]

According to the USBC rule book that is wrong.


USBC Rule book Page 50,Commonly Asked Questions – Rule 111e.
111e/1 If a team is granted a pre-bowl or postponement and the opposing team is not notified,
are the games forfeited?
No. When bowling unopposed, the opposing team does not have to be notified (or agree to
a date) prior to the time of bowling, unless otherwise provided by league rule. Notification
of the opposing team is courtesy and games cannot be forfeited. If the league adopted a rule
requiring notification and the opposing team was not notified and filed a written protest, the
league board would have the following options:
a. Games stand as bowled.
b. Null and void both teams’ scores and require both teams to re-bowl in direct opposition.







Option "B" above is right on point with what happened: The team didn't notify you, the officers null & voided the score and had you bowl head to head. The officers weren't in error.

The fly in the ointment could be where they gave you the option to "leave and not bowl" and you chose to bowl. The Assoc. may have looked at that and said that since you chose to bowl then, then those scores are the ones that should stand.

Direct the question to the national rules dept. ( rules@bowl.com ) for a better ruling.



If the Officers are not doing the job, you either have them kicked out and replaced (Rule 115 - Disciplinary Procedures
115a. Dismissal of a League Officer or Player) or next season vote in new ones.


Based on the description, the league officers were in error to "null and void" the scores, because they exceeded their authority.

It's the league board that decides, not just the league officers. The league board consists of the officers, and all of the team captains.

[Aslan]

The logic in their case was due to females having a longer life span, finding enough males old enough to bowl in the league, who were still physically able to bowl was becoming more difficult.

Well, thats the most depressing post I've ever read on these boards. We spend 55 years trying to talk women into bowling so we can bowl in a mixed league...then we all die and they start their own all female leagues. :(

[got_a_300]

We spend 55 years trying to talk women into bowling so we can bowl in a mixed league...then we all die and they start their own all female leagues. :(

Years ago when the WIBC was still in effect we had all women leagues at
our center and no men were allowed to bowl with them. I don't think it is
fair that on the new PWBA tour that the men are not allowed to bow in it
but the women can bowl on the PBA tour so why not allow the men to bowl
in the PWBA also I say fair is fair.

[Mike White]

Years ago when the WIBC was still in effect we had all women leagues at
our center and no men were allowed to bowl with them. I don't think it is
fair that on the new PWBA tour that the men are not allowed to bow in it
but the women can bowl on the PBA tour so why not allow the men to bowl
in the PWBA also I say fair is fair.

Haven't you learned by now, when dealing with women (of any age) there is no such thing as fair.

[fordman1]

Not a good idea to start a white power or anything all about white people either or you are called a racist. But Black caucus in congress is OK. NAACP is ok. Curtain things have to be OK others are not OK.
My league is all men no women and no one under 18.

[NewToBowling]

Not a good idea to start a white power or anything all about white people either or you are called a racist. But Black caucus in congress is OK. NAACP is ok. Curtain things have to be OK others are not OK.
My league is all men no women and no one under 18.

Huh....

[fordman1]

Yea I guess that was poorly worded. What I meant is some things are OK others aren't. Bad idea to have an all white mens league. All Italian leagues exist. All Kmart leagues exist. All womens leagues exist. All gay leagues exist. Miss black America exists.
Miss white America, not a good idea.
This is just a fact. Not my belief. I happen to be a liberal not a conservative.

[NewToBowling]

Yea I guess that was poorly worded. What I meant is some things are OK others aren't. Bad idea to have an all white mens league. All Italian leagues exist. All Kmart leagues exist. All womens leagues exist. All gay leagues exist. Miss black America exists.
Miss white America, not a good idea.
This is just a fact. Not my belief. I happen to be a liberal not a conservative.

Did you just have this epiphany?