Bad coaching leads to horrible performance

[bigbaby987]

So..... I met with a new coach a couple weeks ago and felt a little weird after the lesson. I wasn't sure if I learned anything or just messed up everything I knew. Now I've only been bowling for a little under a year and ended the winter with a 190 average. Well my average has been the worst since my lesson. I bowled a tournament today in the 300's. It was a team tournament and probably the most embarrassing moment in my short bowling career. Needless to say I went to the pro shop, in a totally different house and started talking to an older gentleman. Turns out he was a mentor to my coach. The man was not very keen on my previous coach to say the least. We kept talking and I discovered that he was a coach himself and needed someone to get these awful habits the previous coach had engrained in me. So I suggested that we did a quick lesson. Well let me say, this was the best lesson I have had EVER! This older gentleman had me throwing the ball like I never have. I've always been a down and in player, but he had me bowling more like a cranker. I was amazed because I have tried and tried to just get left with absolutely no success. He fixed my gripping problem, approach and delivery in 30 minutes at that! I have not been so happy and sad in the same bowling day. I've bombed every outing since the previous coach. Get this; he's 74 and just as vigorous as any 40 year old. I'm excited again. I'm not downing any coach with a USBC certification but between these two, I'll take the old guy with no certification any day. Wow.

[JasonNJ]

Awesome, it makes me want to go get a lesson from the old guy too. I think the USBC certification and the way they teach is very text book but everyone bowls differently and I think the best coaches take what they see in a player and make them better in their style.

[1VegasBowler]

So..... I met with a new coach a couple weeks ago and felt a little weird after the lesson. I wasn't sure if I learned anything or just messed up everything I knew. Now I've only been bowling for a little under a year and ended the winter with a 190 average. Well my average has been the worst since my lesson. I bowled a tournament today in the 300's. It was a team tournament and probably the most embarrassing moment in my short bowling career. Needless to say I went to the pro shop, in a totally different house and started talking to an older gentleman. Turns out he was a mentor to my coach. The man was not very keen on my previous coach to say the least. We kept talking and I discovered that he was a coach himself and needed someone to get these awful habits the previous coach had engrained in me. So I suggested that we did a quick lesson. Well let me say, this was the best lesson I have had EVER! This older gentleman had me throwing the ball like I never have. I've always been a down and in player, but he had me bowling more like a cranker. I was amazed because I have tried and tried to just get left with absolutely no success. He fixed my gripping problem, approach and delivery in 30 minutes at that! I have not been so happy and sad in the same bowling day. I've bombed every outing since the previous coach. Get this; he's 74 and just as vigorous as any 40 year old. I'm excited again. I'm not downing any coach with a USBC certification but between these two, I'll take the old guy with no certification any day. Wow.

Sometimes that's all it takes. Hearing a different voice can make all the difference in the world, and while I have respect for those who are coaches, I can always tell when I'm not doing something right and go back to the basics.

While there may come a time when I will want to have a coach, I don't want one who is going to change my game dramatically. Just a tweak here and a tweak there.

[fordman1]

Maybe you should be the coach. In less than a year you are averaging 190. 2 more years and you might be a PBA guy on TV. There are people on here who have been bowling for years and years that don't average 190. Check out their profiles.

[bigbaby987]

Maybe you should be the coach. In less than a year you are averaging 190. 2 more years and you might be a PBA guy on TV. There are people on here who have been bowling for years and years that don't average 190. Check out their profiles.

Thanks fordman1! It's interesting you say that. That's what the coach from yesterday said. I don't know about all that, but it would be cool!;)

[Dadman13]

While there may come a time when I will want to have a coach, I don't want one who is going to change my game dramatically. Just a tweak here and a tweak there.

I couldn't agree more! I am not a robot. Teach me to improve the game I have.

[Aslan]

I don't "disagree" per se...BUT...

...there is really no universal "good coach" "bad coach" litmus test. And age is probably not the one I'd choose....because many of the old timers haven't embraced the new game and modern bowling technology, etc... Does that mean "all old coaches are bad". Definitely not. It's not something you can define that way.

I've had instruction (formal, informal, paid, free, etc...) from 6 different coaches...all of them at "least" USBC bronze level. As young as early 30s...to as old as mid-60s. None of them...even one of the coaches considered to be "the best if not one of the best" coaches in the World (Mark Baker)...none of them were able to just watch me bowl and then fix everything. It takes time, hard work, persistence, money, and commitment.

Mark told me early on when I started taking lessons that most of his students that come to him average >125 and <190. The way he explained it...people < 125 don't know they need lessons...and people > 190 don't think they need lessons. In some ways...the higher the average you have...the harder you will be to coach. Because, deep down, even though you're taking a lesson...you "think" you know it all. And you don't. As soon as they ask you to do something "different"...you struggle and throw it out and claim the coach doesn't know what they're talking about. Do you know how many "slumps"...some as long as 4-5 months...I've had to go through to improve my game? Fixing footwork and timing and release and form...understanding ball motion....these aren't just "tricks" that you learn in a 30-minute lesson.

Now, in agreement with you...the better coaches are able to use their knowledge and experience to help YOUR game. As long as YOUR game isn't horrible...they can usually help you get better without starting over from scratch. But there are some things...you simply have to fix...or there's not much they can do to get you off the 190 plateau. The "worse" coaches (not 'bad'...just not as good) will try to change your game to match their game. Now, they have more knowledge than your league buddies who will coach you the same way...but it's essentially a flawed coaching method...unless you're starting with a 80 average bowler or something like that.

I see 3 coaches right now....2 regularly...and 1 (Rob M) when I have an opportunity. I'd say, even though the 3 coaches have totally different styles, methods, beliefs, and experiences...they probably teach 70% the same stuff. Very rarely will one of them contradict the other. Now, the other 30%...thats where each of them has their own 'value' to me as a student. Rob, for example, knows a lot about modern bowling (thus, his website called modernbowling.com). He knows a great deal about different ball manufacturers and bowling technology. We don't always agree about his beliefs...but he's right more than he's wrong. Thats something I don't really get from my other two coaches...who are ball reps and totally understand ball technology...but they tend to really focus on their line of equipment. If I ask them for their thoughts on a ball...it's going to be tainted by the fact that it's their job to steer me towards their brand.

But thats just an example. What I really like about my coaches (and where Rob is at a disadvantage because I can't get coaching from him on a regular basis), is because I keep going back to them...on a monthly basis...they know where I started...they know the things we've worked on...they know what has "worked" and what "hasn't"...so it's a "process". Whatever coach you choose...old or young...certified or not...keep two things in mind:

1) If you're not willing to see your average go down before it goes up...you might not get as much out of coaching. Coaches aren't there to just tell you that you're awesome and to keep doing everything the same way because you know everything and threw a few 300-games. If they aren't challenging you...you're not going to improve much...especially at the 190+ average level.

2) Some things they teach you...won't work. Try them...struggle...and at the next lesson report back about that struggle...and if the coach is any good...they will "probably" change their approach. If what they are trying to get you to do...isn't working...they will likely have a couple other ways to accomplish the change that won't upset your game as much but will accomplish the same ultimate goal.

Or...learn to bowl 2-handed and then you'll be the best bowler ever without any need for lessons or anything else. :rolleyes:

[RobLV1]

Very informative thread. As a USBC Silver Level Coach (I'm the Rob to whom Aslan refers below), I can say with confidence from experience that the USBC Coaching program is NOT a text book or rubber stamp program. USBC Coaches are trained not only in bowling, but in teaching as well. The difference between the levels; Level One, Bronze Level, Silver Level, and Gold Level, is in approach as well as depth of knowledge. Level One teaches bowling basics for beginning bowlers. Bronze Level takes it one step further focusing on mid-range bowlers in terms of averages. Level One and Bronze teach bowling from the beginning of the approach forward, whereas, beginning with Silver Level, the focus is from the foul line backward. In other words, where is the bowler at the foul line and what needs to be tweaked to alter that final position.

I have worked with several coaches during my years of bowling. Some have been more effective than others, but all of them have helped me in one way or another. Sometimes I've realized years later that something in my current game was the direct result of something I was taught years before.

No USBC Certified Coach will ever teach you to bowl like he/she does. Part of the training is in learning to work with what the bowler has, once you determine where the bowler wants to go.

One of the most distressing things that I have ever seen was a well-meaning high average bowler who would come to the lanes early for league, wearing a baseball cap and carrying an Apple Tablet. He would always try to help other bowlers and really believed that he could coach. The problem was that he was not trained to see cause and effect like a real coach. One day I saw him trying to help a bowler who had a really terrible release. He kept trying to change the bowlers release without seeing that it was caused by timing that was two to three balls late. It couldn't be fixed until the timing was fixed, but he didn't know enough about coaching to realize that.

As stated below, coaches can say the same thing in different ways. Sometimes something that a coach tells you will really hit home, and you will realize that others have tried to tell you the same thing, just using different words that didn't work for you.

[bigbaby987]

Rob and Aslan I totally understand your points and I agree also. It was just that, for me, finding out the coach I was going to was getting advice from the elder coach was such a coincidence I needed to see what it was all about. The elder understood my game immediately. He addressed the same issues as the other actually but I felt he did it more successfully for me. The previous coach seemed to fish around a little and seemed unsure from time to time. Nice guy and knowledgable but we didn't connect. The elder showed me how to change my approach ( from a 3 step developed after a broken foot ) to a 4 step which gave me more balance and control over the ball. He also realized that I was thumbing it at the very end of my release due to the way the ball was drilled, something the younger certified picked up on also. They both agreed on my ball speed, which is around 17mph and rev rate. The elder got all of this under control in 30 minutes. I worked with the other for 2 hours.

My thing is that if the elder can get the quirks fixed that much faster, the closer I am to the consistency and versatility that I'm looking for. And it does hurt that the elder is half the price.

[fordman1]

You can't make chicken soup out of chicken shi*. If a person is a really good athlete they can usually be taught. Some people just can't. I have known people who went to coaches took classes and still sucked. Some pick it up instantly and some never learn no matter how much the practice.

[1VegasBowler]

While there are times I would like to practice I can't. But I am going to start getting the understanding and feel of 2 handed bowling just for the heck of it.

[Aslan]

While there are times I would like to practice I can't. But I am going to start getting the understanding and feel of 2 handed bowling just for the heck of it.

And then you journey towards the dark side will be complete...

https://youtu.be/JBJh6U3Kv90

[RobLV1]

and then you journey towards the dark side will be complete...

https://youtu.be/jbjh6u3kv90

roflmao! : )

[foreverincamo]

Getting coaching doesn't mean you'll improve at all. A huge part of it is your ability to do what is needed to get to that next level. Everyone has a top end to their talent. I'm hoping I haven't reached my zenith, and I hope you haven't reached yours.

[foreverincamo]

On that note, I'm going to see my coach Tuesday morning. First time in forever but I'm looking forward to it. She knows her stuff and I trust her. We'll see how it goes.

[bigbaby987]

Getting coaching doesn't mean you'll improve at all. A huge part of it is your ability to do what is needed to get to that next level. Everyone has a top end to their talent. I'm hoping I haven't reached my zenith, and I hope you haven't reached yours.


Thanks bud. I really don't believe that I've come close to my "zenith". It's just working hard and pressing forward.

[Amyers]

I started working with a coach about 4 or 5 months ago. I came back to the game after a 20 year layoff and averaged about 170 during a summer league. The following fall I averaged over 200 more most of the year but hit a slump at the end and finished with a 196 average. That slump continued through the summer and I averaged about 175 then they closed my home center and this fall was off to a horrible start. I finally found a coach here and for most of it I've struggled. I would seem to make some progress then get back out of whack then back again. My wife and daughter have been working with the same coach and honestly if it wasn't for the progress I've seen them making I may have given up on it.

We worked on timing and adjustments first and things improved then we worked on not cupping the wrist and it would look ok with him there and I would go to league and drop games in the 120's. I would give it up and we would work on other things and then we went back to not cupping the wrist again the scores cratered and after 3 weeks I gave it up again. I really felt like I was just wasting my time and money at the point. We spent a couple of sessions working on timing and spinal tilt and he asked be about not cupping the release again so I tried it again. My scores dropped but I was in the 160's that way and I at least felt at that level I could try it and not embarrass myself. Then it was 160's and some 190's. I finally seem to have put it together the last five weeks I haven't thrown less than 600 yet 12 league sessions.

I've had some hot streaks in the past and bowled multiple 600's in a row but in the past I had to bowl almost perfectly to get it. By perfect I mean very few maybe 1 split over a three game set and make all my spares as my strike rate has been low. I think the most impressive thing about this has been the fact I don't even feel like I'm bowling particularly well but I'm scoring. I think I only have 2 clean games during this run. over the last three weeks I've had a 268,264,251, and 2 249 games. Moral of the story is sometimes you just have to be ready to listen and have the rest of your game in line because if not the best advice can not work or maybe I'm just on a hot streak who knows.

[IHateTenPins]

I'm interested in finding a coach but looking at the bowl.com, most around me are only level I coaches. So my question is how do I know someone is going to be a good coach?

[Amyers]

I'm interested in finding a coach but looking at the bowl.com, most around me are only level I coaches. So my question is how do I know someone is going to be a good coach?

Talk to your PSO and upper level bowlers is going to be your only option. I faced the same situation in my search and luckily my PSO knew of one who I later found out worked with almost all of the high end bowlers in our area. It's basically that or prepare to make long drives. My other option was a coach three hours away in Cincinnati.

[IHateTenPins]

Talk to your PSO and upper level bowlers is going to be your only option. I faced the same situation in my search and luckily my PSO knew of one who I later found out worked with almost all of the high end bowlers in our area. It's basically that or prepare to make long drives. My other option was a coach three hours away in Cincinnati.

Ok thanks, I'll speak to my local PSO and see what he says.

[ep1977]

Talk to your PSO and upper level bowlers is going to be your only option. I faced the same situation in my search and luckily my PSO knew of one who I later found out worked with almost all of the high end bowlers in our area. It's basically that or prepare to make long drives. My other option was a coach three hours away in Cincinnati.

The problem around here is you can't ask your PSO as all of them think that they are the best coaches which isn't always the case.

[fordman1]

Norm Duke has some very good videos on u-tube and they won't cost you an arm and a leg..

[Amyers]

The problem around here is you can't ask your PSO as all of them think that they are the best coaches which isn't always the case.

I agree that's why I said the PSO and upper level bowlers in your area. If the PSO is full of crap the better bowlers in the area know it. It's not a perfect solution to the problem, unfortunately if you live in one of those areas where there just aren't many coaches you don't have many options.

[ep1977]

I agree that's why I said the PSO and upper level bowlers in your area. If the PSO is full of crap the better bowlers in the area know it. It's not a perfect solution to the problem, unfortunately if you live in one of those areas where there just aren't many coaches you don't have many options.

I'm a very strong believer in all sports that just because you're good or great at it doesn't mean you're or will be a good coach. All the pro shop guys around here are 220+ and a few are PBA members but they aren't good coaches from what I can see.