What I Don't Understand about the USBC

[RobLV1]

The USBC has done a horrible job of protecting the integrity of the sport of bowling. Their lack of regulation of lane conditions has resulted in house shots where 200+ averages are the norm, and awards scores are rampant. What I don't understand is why this same organization insists on putting out a lane condition for their yearly National Open Championships where these same house bowlers struggle to average 160. The USBC is raising their dues next year out of a need, I'm sure, of keeping up with all of the awards that they give out, and yet they actively encourage bowlers not to return to the National Championships to because of the struggle to score. Does this make any sense to you?

[Mike White]

Why complain about the situation when you clearly don't want the solution.

[jimgilmore]

In real world term The house shots are what they are because it makes the customers happy. Bowlers scoring low scores do not keep bowling even if their high averages are due to or in spite of their poor play.
ABowling ball rolled into the 1-5 between 3-6 degrees will strike every time. But draw it on paper a straight line from the lane on your right to the 1-5 and tell me you can get your ball to go down the lane and follow that single line ?

[bowl1820]

The USBC has done a horrible job of protecting the integrity of the sport of bowling.

OH another one............................

http://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/watching-someone-beat-a-dead-horse-isnt-as-entertaining-as-one-might-think-d39d0.png

[RobLV1]

Why complain about the situation when you clearly don't want the solution.

I have been talking to USBC Board Members about putting together a proposal for next year's convention with a plan for gradually tightening up lane condition requirements to bring the integrity back. Just because I don't use plastic bowling balls for my strike balls doesn't mean I don't care. What have you done lately to change anything, other than to complain yourself?

[RobLV1]

OH another one............................

http://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/watching-someone-beat-a-dead-horse-isnt-as-entertaining-as-one-might-think-d39d0.png

At the risk of being accused of being the eternal optimist, I don't think the horse is dead... he's just been drugged by over-inflated egos fed by artificially high averages.

[Mike White]

I have been talking to USBC Board Members about putting together a proposal for next year's convention with a plan for gradually tightening up lane condition requirements to bring the integrity back. Just because I don't use plastic bowling balls for my strike balls doesn't mean I don't care. What have you done lately to change anything, other than to complain yourself?

Well, I give them first hand evidence that you don't need expensive bowling balls to achieve high scores.

Most people have either never learned how to earn a hook, or have had the ability to do so atrophy due to bowling with resin balls on house conditions.

The subset of these people who venture into sports conditions realize that without those dry boards to make the ball rev up, it doesn't "wrinkle"

Ever wonder why the Pros have no problem getting the ball to hook on their conditions?

They put lift into the ball, while the house bowler is taught to just dump the ball and let friction make the ball roll.

I don't want USBC to force harder conditions on everyone. Let the recreational bowlers have their "fun".

Just make a separate division for bowlers interested in skill.

USBC was close with sport condition, but that is too drastic a difference from the house shot, and in the wrong direction.

Cut back on the oil significantly,

Take the idea of Teen Masters oil quantity, but limit the distance to 24 feet.

Pre-Urethane, the mindset of most bowlers was accuracy worked best, and the straighter you threw the ball, the more accurate you could be.

During the urethane days, people were presented with evidence that entry angle was more important than accuracy.

Lets go to 24 feet of oil, and 36 feet of dry back ends.

Each person can make their choice of how to play based on their abilities.

Straight, or arc the ball into the pocket.

In either case they're going to have to work at being consistent.

That means practice.

The good thing is, even if the lanes are oiled as a THS during a practice session, the area you are going to arc the ball out to will still be dry.

And if the house doesn't oil for open bowling, that dry area can only get so dry.

The bowlers need to take back the sport.

USBC isn't going to do it, and the proprietors sure aren't going to force it on people.

[bowl1820]

Personally I hope everyone that complains about the job the USBC does gets what they wish for. Then there will be new stuff to read on the boards.

At first everyone will say how great it is, then after a few position rounds and tournaments losses watch what happens.

You'll come on the boards and read where the same people are now complaining about how the USBC went overboard or how they did it wrong, etc. (and it won't just be the over-inflated egos fed by artificially high averages either)

Don't think it would happen?

Look at Motiv and the Jackal debacle, People have been complaining a long time about how the USBC doesn't enforce the rules. So they enforce one, what happened? Everyone said the USBC went overboard, they did it wrong, etc.

I hope your proposal go's good, just don't be surprised at how it unfolds.


The Dead Horse List:

Bash the USBC horse
Two Hand Bowler horse
Sandbagger horse
Handicap horse
"CG" the static weight horse
"Reactive Resin" the Cheater Ball horse

[foreverincamo]

Would it do any good to have a 33 week season, with the last week a championship roll-off week between first and second half winners, to have four 8-week sessions where the oil pattern changes?

[foreverincamo]

Or, change nothing about the sport besides the pins? Keep the same weight but lower the center of gravity and make them harder to knock over?

[Mike White]

Or, change nothing about the sport besides the pins? Keep the same weight but lower the center of gravity and make them harder to knock over?

Changing the pins effects everyone, and not everyone is benefiting from modern balls, and walled up lanes.

Why punish the senior bowlers who just throw the ball slowly down the middle?

[ep1977]

The USBC has done a horrible job of protecting the integrity of the sport of bowling. Their lack of regulation of lane conditions has resulted in house shots where 200+ averages are the norm, and awards scores are rampant. What I don't understand is why this same organization insists on putting out a lane condition for their yearly National Open Championships where these same house bowlers struggle to average 160. The USBC is raising their dues next year out of a need, I'm sure, of keeping up with all of the awards that they give out, and yet they actively encourage bowlers not to return to the National Championships to because of the struggle to score. Does this make any sense to you?

This is like saying that the MLB isn't doing a good job because the national league has an insane amount of little league sized parks and an automatic out at the end of the line up.

If anyone wants harder conditions there are many options like tournaments and sport shot leagues!!!!

[Timmyb]

Personally I hope everyone that complains about the job the USBC does gets what they wish for. Then there will be new stuff to read on the boards.

At first everyone will say how great it is, then after a few position rounds and tournaments losses watch what happens.

You'll come on the boards and read where the same people are now complaining about how the USBC went overboard or how they did it wrong, etc. (and it won't just be the over-inflated egos fed by artificially high averages either)

Don't think it would happen?

Look at Motiv and the Jackal debacle, People have been complaining a long time about how the USBC doesn't enforce the rules. So they enforce one, what happened? Everyone said the USBC went overboard, they did it wrong, etc.

I hope your proposal go's good, just don't be surprised at how it unfolds.


The Dead Horse List:

Bash the USBC horse
Two Hand Bowler horse
Sandbagger horse
Handicap horse
"CG" the static weight horse
"Reactive Resin" the Cheater Ball horse



Bowl, this is as spot on as it gets. There will never be a way to make everyone happy. If you're at a house and scoring well, don't be disappointed when you go to a tournament and score badly. Bowling is about making adjustments, and not about everything being spoon-fed to you. I bowled on a fresh house shot two week ago, and went 584. Bowled the next Sunday on a burned up Saturday oiling, and shot 670. It's all about ADJUSTMENTS!

[fordman1]

Since the new rule went into effect saying only bowlers who haven't previously earned 300's or 800's get anything there are spending less than ever on awards. So what are the league bowlers getting for their dues? Now they want more money? Should your dues be paying for Team USA, or PBA events? Or bribe money for the Olympics?

[Timmyb]

Since the new rule went into effect saying only bowlers who haven't previously earned 300's or 800's get anything there are spending less than ever on awards. So what are the league bowlers getting for their dues? Now they want more money? Should your dues be paying for Team USA, or PBA events? Or bribe money for the Olympics?

I'm okay with the Olympic bribe money! :cool:

[Hot_pocket]

It seems you should be complaining more about the balls available, instead of the lanes. There is literally a ball for every lane condition and recently that experiment that was posted on here, shows that companies are literally making the same ball 2 different ways, by changing the cover stock only. But we couldn't allow a change to balls because it's necessary to show the sport can grow in all aspects. Idk if it's possible but I say explore the options of oil make up. They were able to produce the blue oil so why not try and change the chemical make-up that may make it slightly, harder for even a typical house shot?

[RobLV1]

It seems you should be complaining more about the balls available, instead of the lanes. There is literally a ball for every lane condition and recently that experiment that was posted on here, shows that companies are literally making the same ball 2 different ways, by changing the cover stock only. But we couldn't allow a change to balls because it's necessary to show the sport can grow in all aspects. Idk if it's possible but I say explore the options of oil make up. They were able to produce the blue oil so why not try and change the chemical make-up that may make it slightly, harder for even a typical house shot?

First off, I'm not complaining. I'm simply pointing out a specific inconsistency in the USBC philosophy regarding oil patterns for daily bowling and for their National Open Championships. I'm also pointing out, that in my opinion, they have failed to protect the integrity of the game. This includes bowling balls as well as lane conditions. I would like to see them start toughening up ball specs, but, frankly, the ball issue is much harder to address because the ball manufacturers have become the defacto financial supporters of the sport of bowling. Without manufacturers dollars, there would be no PBA Tour or major tournaments.

[bowl1820]

The National Open Championships should always have patterns that are harder than the daily house patterns.

Could they toughen the house shot? sure. But if they do they need to make nationals just that much harder.

The Nationals should be different, harder, something you didn't expect.

The thing about hard patterns is, they are only hard because you don't bowl on them all the time. If you bowl on a "Hard" pattern long enough, it will get easier.

The PBA told how they found that out when they first went to the animal patterns, the scores plunged. But after they bowled on them for a little while, the scores started climbing right back up.

They don't really need to make house shots harder, just require them rotate through all the different ones that exist now week after week.

There are plenty of good scoring THS patterns that play differently, have different volumes and lengths. By rotating through them, you could get bowlers use to not expecting the same shot when they go to the lanes, week after week and playing them the same way all the time.

That way they still have a easy pattern they could score on, but won't have quite that much preconception on how to play the lanes. Which would help them when they go to the Nationals or to any tournament with a "hard" pattern.

[Jaescrub]

The National Open Championships should always have patterns that are harder than the daily house patterns.

Could they toughen the house shot? sure. But if they do they need to make nationals just that much harder.

The Nationals should be different, harder, something you didn't expect.

The thing about hard patterns is, they are only hard because you don't bowl on them all the time. If you bowl on a "Hard" pattern long enough, it will get easier.

The PBA told how they found that out when they first went to the animal patterns, the scores plunged. But after they bowled on them for a little while, the scores started climbing right back up.

They don't really need to make house shots harder, just require them rotate through all the different ones that exist now week after week.

There are plenty of good scoring THS patterns that play differently, have different volumes and lengths. By rotating through them, you could get bowlers use to not expecting the same shot when they go to the lanes, week after week and playing them the same way all the time.

That way they still have a easy pattern they could score on, but won't have quite that much preconception on how to play the lanes. Which would help them when they go to the Nationals or to any tournament with a "hard" pattern.

This is the truth I have been saying this for a long time now. I would love if every week it was a different shot. I know it would help make myself a better bowler.

[ep1977]

Look at what golf does with the US Open. The coarse is always insanely difficult and people always complain but I think the US Open/ Nationals in golf and bowling should be the most difficult conditions the athletes will face in there lives.

[Mike White]

Look at what golf does with the US Open. The coarse is always insanely difficult and people always complain but I think the US Open/ Nationals in golf and bowling should be the most difficult conditions the athletes will face in there lives.

In golf, the US Open is only difficult once you've made a bad shot.

In bowling, when they flood the lane with oil, even good shots don't wrinkle for a lot of bowlers.

[Timmyb]

This is the truth I have been saying this for a long time now. I would love if every week it was a different shot. I know it would help make myself a better bowler.


I bowl at classic Lanes in Greenfield, WI. It's pretty much a different shot every week, even though they say it's the same. You should hear the retirees P and M.

[1VegasBowler]

NOTE: This is not directed at any one person. Things that are said apply to all. Thanks.

Before I get to my opinion here, I have to say that I'm running for one of the Southern Nevada USBC Board seats in July.

Not that our 5 second commercial is over, here's my take.

Here in Vegas, a THS will range anywhere from 37-42 ft with basically the same oiling pattern. And no matter where you bowl you will be able to adjust to the different lengths because the THS has been designed to be a very forgiving pattern to those who only play on a THS.

While I have no qualms with the lengths, I think the oiling pattern should be changed a bit to make it a little more challenging. Spread it out a little more with a little more volume.

Now, if you also recall, the USBC is also going to not post their oiling patterns (graphs, etc.) for some of their events until after the entire event has been completed so that nobody has a distinct advantage.

So lets apply this to the leagues as well.

Next thing would be to change the lane certification process.

As one who has been a part of this process this year here in Vegas, I can tell you it is not always easy, especially for the poor guys who have to take measurements in the pits. Doing the Southern Nevada certifications take about 2 months to complete, and being up around 3:30 - 4am isn't always pleasant. But we do it.

What I would like to see, is for the oiling patterns be checked every 3 months, and if need be, to do it again if a complaint is filed by a league about the conditions. BUT there has to be a caveat.

If any league files a complaint about the lane conditions (oiling), the local USBC would come out and do their "tape" of the oil pattern(s) to see of the comply with the rules. If they do not, the bowling center would pay the fee and a fine for the USBC coming out. If the oiling does comply with the specs, then the league filing the complaint will pay for the fee.

Same thing would apply to any of the other specs for a bowling alley and complaints that are filed.

Yes, this is only a band aid for the situation, but might be the best thing for now. Making radical changes to the oiling and anything else is going to push bowlers away from the sport that is getting smaller. Make the changes subtle as you go along and it will be easier to take.

I agree that changes need to be made, but they can't be done overnight. But the changes can only get started if enough people come out to the local board meetings and speak up. While talking to a board member helps, it takes more than just one person to be speaking up, because they are only hearing from one person. They need to hear it from many people. The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one (Mr. Spock, Star Trek, the Wrath of Khan).

By not showing at your local USBC meetings, your voices will not be heard as loudly as they would in person.

Just as I am running for one of the board seats here in SO NV, it won't be much of a run if the members do not come out and vote, and it also risks the continuation of having people on the board that you think should not be there.

I'm certainly no politician and will never claim to be, but neither are most of those who do run for these offices. They also know that once they're in, it's tough to get rid of them when their term is up because the members don't show up to make their votes count.

This is not just about me running, but for anybody else that decides to run for their local board. Being involved in bowling by going out a couple of nights every weeks isn't all there is to it. Getting involved by attending these meetings and elections is crucial to every local association.

By staying home you are not part of the solution. It makes you a part of the problem. And if you're not willing to be part of the solution, then the complaints, concerns and the future of bowling go absolutely nowhere.

[fordman1]

This is the truth I have been saying this for a long time now. I would love if every week it was a different shot. I know it would help make myself a better bowler.

This might be true "but" many house bowlers bowl once a week and don't have the money or time to go practice or but a bunch of bowling balls. They want to go there on Friday night and drink some beer have a good time and keep the same shot.

[bowl1820]

Now, if you also recall, the USBC is also going to not post their oiling patterns (graphs, etc.) for some of their events until after the entire event has been completed so that nobody has a distinct advantage.

So lets apply this to the leagues as well.



Apply that to leagues as well?

Now I don't how it is in NV, But I've been bowling for many years and from all the posts I've read from others that tell about their house . The majority of houses don't tell the league bowlers what the pattern is in the first place. So that would be kind of a moot point

The only time I seen a pattern sheet at a house was when I bowled on a PBA exp. league. The majority of houses treat the league house shot like it state secret and they'd be shot if they told.

The closest I got was they told me it was pattern #2 on the machine and they lost the manual that told what that was. (I've heard some whoopers before but OMG)


As a side note:
What they didn't know was I had and still do, a copy of the lane machine manual. The preloaded Pattern #2 was a standard 42' house shot. Which I figure they tweaked.

[Jaescrub]

This might be true "but" many house bowlers bowl once a week and don't have the money or time to go practice or but a bunch of bowling balls. They want to go there on Friday night and drink some beer have a good time and keep the same shot.
Hey I'm with that too but I would love a new shot every week. I'm by no means a good bowler, I might get three games of practice a week, and I only have three bowling balls. Yes I know before someone like VDub or any of the people that know me from here all the balls I won two years ago I gave away lol.

[fordman1]

I guess you didn't understand my meaning. They don't want someone changing the shot every week. The weather and humidity screw it up enough. The harder you make the shot the more bowlers you use. Keep it for tournaments. Look at your local events. Every year it is the same bowlers.

[RobLV1]

As I coach, I would LOVE to see a different shot each week just to get bowlers out of the habit of *** U MING that the shot will be the same as last week... it rarely is!

[1VegasBowler]

Apply that to leagues as well?

Now I don't how it is in NV, But I've been bowling for many years and from all the posts I've read from others that tell about their house . The majority of houses don't tell the league bowlers what the pattern is in the first place. So that would be kind of a moot point

The only time I seen a pattern sheet at a house was when I bowled on a PBA exp. league. The majority of houses treat the league house shot like it state secret and they'd be shot if they told.

The closest I got was they told me it was pattern #2 on the machine and they lost the manual that told what that was. (I've heard some whoopers before but OMG)


As a side note:
What they didn't know was I had and still do, a copy of the lane machine manual. The preloaded Pattern #2 was a standard 42' house shot. Which I figure they tweaked.

Every place that I have gone to here has managed to get me a sheet of their THS.

And actually, the point is far from moot. If the lanes are conditioned in a way that is other than what is considered a standard or house shot, then you're using a sport shot and the league has to be certified and marked as Sport/Challenge.

And for those who only throw a straight ball, the pattern means absolutely nothing to them. They are throwing down the middle through the heaviest oil in the patterns.

For those of us who throw with a hook, the equipment we choose makes a world of difference when throwing on a Sport pattern, and tonight was a classic example.

In the house I was bowling at, it is supposed to be their THS and the equipment I was using was not working by any stretch of the imagination. And it did not matter where I was playing either.

Late in the first game, the people who condition the lanes came to us and told us that they had 2 different patterns! Both were sport patterns with one of them very flat and with a larger volume of oil. That was major information to me! I changed my equipment and it made a big difference as to where I was going to play, and in my ball reaction.

[Mike White]

Every place that I have gone to here has managed to get me a sheet of their THS.

And actually, the point is far from moot. If the lanes are conditioned in a way that is other than what is considered a standard or house shot, then you're using a sport shot and the league has to be certified and marked as Sport/Challenge.

And for those who only throw a straight ball, the pattern means absolutely nothing to them. They are throwing down the middle through the heaviest oil in the patterns.

For those of us who throw with a hook, the equipment we choose makes a world of difference when throwing on a Sport pattern, and tonight was a classic example.

In the house I was bowling at, it is supposed to be their THS and the equipment I was using was not working by any stretch of the imagination. And it did not matter where I was playing either.

Late in the first game, the people who condition the lanes came to us and told us that they had 2 different patterns! Both were sport patterns with one of them very flat and with a larger volume of oil. That was major information to me! I changed my equipment and it made a big difference as to where I was going to play, and in my ball reaction.

There is a set criteria for a sport shot.

There is a lot of space between what would be called a Typical House Shot, and a sport shot.

If you were to completely strip the lanes of all oil, that wouldn't be a THS, and it wouldn't qualify as a sport shot either.

[1VegasBowler]

For league play, every center in the USA should have a THS graph available at the front desk for anybody who asks for one. I would actually like to see that mandated so when a player asks for one, they get it.

As I said earlier, the USBC should tweak the THS patterns and have a range from 36-42'. And while they would be encouraged to change the frequently, I would wait a couple of years before it's mandated so that people can get use to the changes, because if one thinks a 36ft pattern is going to play the exact same way as a 42ft pattern, then, you're in for a rude awakening.

Anything other than what the USBC specifies as a house is considered a Sport shot, and those Sport shots need to be left for those who wish to participate in one of those leagues.

[1VegasBowler]

And while I'm on a roll here (lol), for those of us who know league bowlers who think they are as good as any pro that is out there and they happen to carry a 200 average for at least 36 games, next time they start popping off about their precious THS pattern or how good they think they are, why not strongly suggest they join the PBA and go on tour since they are so darned good!

One thing is for sure, they will have one of the rudest awakenings if they do! Bowling 3-5 times a week and bowling 12 games plus every day will more than likely set them back a few steps, not to mention playing on those tough Sport patterns that bring the best of them to their knees.

The 200+ braggart won't do it because he/she loves to be the King or Queen of the hill they're on so that they can have that feeling of such superiority to everybody else. God forbid they bowl against the pros every week and be at the bottom of the barrel.

[bowl1820]

Every place that I have gone to here has managed to get me a sheet of their THS.

Well your lucky then, while that's how it should be. That's not a common practice everywhere.


And actually, the point is far from moot. If the lanes are conditioned in a way that is other than what is considered a standard or house shot, then you're using a sport shot and the league has to be certified and marked as Sport/Challenge.


Okay, that has nothing to do with the part I said was moot, which was:




Now, if you also recall, the USBC is also going to not post their oiling patterns (graphs, etc.) for some of their events until after the entire event has been completed so that nobody has a distinct advantage.

So lets apply this to the leagues as well.



In this statement you tell how the USBC is not going to post the Open pattern till after the tournament is completed and that this idea should be applied to leagues as well.

So that means you want to pass a rule that the league bowlers shouldn't know what the pattern is they are bowling on till after the league is complete.

And I said that was basically a moot point because most places don't tell you what it is in the first place.


For league play, every center in the USA should have a THS graph available at the front desk for anybody who asks for one. I would actually like to see that mandated so when a player asks for one, they get it.

Now this statement contradicts that earlier statement.

On one hand your saying don't give the league bowlers the pattern and on the other hand your say to give it to them.


As I said earlier, the USBC should tweak the THS patterns and have a range from 36-42'.

Those exist already.


Anything other than what the USBC specifies as a house is considered a Sport shot, and those Sport shots need to be left for those who wish to participate in one of those leagues.

For the most part that's the way it basically is now or how it's supposed to be.

[bowl1820]

And while I'm on a roll here (lol), for those of us who know league bowlers who think they are as good as any pro that is out there and they happen to carry a 200 average for at least 36 games, next time they start popping off about their precious THS pattern or how good they think they are, why not strongly suggest they join the PBA and go on tour since they are so darned good!

People have been telling the house hacks that for years.


One thing is for sure, they will have one of the rudest awakenings if they do! Bowling 3-5 times a week and bowling 12 games plus every day will more than likely set them back a few steps, not to mention playing on those tough Sport patterns that bring the best of them to their knees.

Yes they would and I've known guys that had that awakening and long before sport patterns existed!

[fordman1]

One of the biggers myths in bowling is that house bowlers think they are as good as Pro bowlers. That is totally not true.
The house bowlers have jobs that they have to go to that don't have anything to do with bowling. Pro bowlers have jobs in pro shops or in bowling in one form or another. They practice every day. They eat, sleep and breath bowling. House bowlers don't.
They have no illusions that they are as good as pro's. So quit the BS. It isn't true.

Go ahead and change the shot every week and when the leagues are all gone, whats left of them maybe you will be happy. The huge majority of bowlers have never bowled in a tournament and even less have bowled in the Open. If you are not extraordinarily good bowler you are wasting your money. Donate it to the vets or cancer people they can use it.

[1VegasBowler]

Well your lucky then, while that's how it should be. That's not a common practice everywhere.



Okay, that has nothing to do with the part I said was moot, which was:



In this statement you tell how the USBC is not going to post the Open pattern till after the tournament is completed and that this idea should be applied to leagues as well.

So that means you want to pass a rule that the league bowlers shouldn't know what the pattern is they are bowling on till after the league is complete.

And I said that was basically a moot point because most places don't tell you what it is in the first place.



Now this statement contradicts that earlier statement.

On one hand your saying don't give the league bowlers the pattern and on the other hand your say to give it to them.



Those exist already.



For the most part that's the way it basically is now or how it's supposed to be.

What I'm saying here, is, they can wait until after the 3 game set is over. Waiting until after the season is over is unreasonable.

This is should be available to anybody. However, if you have 7 different THS patterns, they can always be available during open play. Just put them in a sheet protector in a 3 ring binder and have it at the front desk. This way here, all anybody has to do is ask and it's readily available. Then again, the USBC can post them on their website like all of their other patterns.

Just as the USBC will wait until the entire US Open is complete before telling them what they bowled on, you can do it to league bowlers on a weekly basis.

Will the bowlers eventually figure it out? Yes, the good ones certainly will. Those that are not good will take a little longer. The straight down the lane bowler won't care one bit.

[1VegasBowler]

One of the biggers myths in bowling is that house bowlers think they are as good as Pro bowlers. That is totally not true.
The house bowlers have jobs that they have to go to that don't have anything to do with bowling. Pro bowlers have jobs in pro shops or in bowling in one form or another. They practice every day. They eat, sleep and breath bowling. House bowlers don't.
They have no illusions that they are as good as pro's. So quit the BS. It isn't true.

Go ahead and change the shot every week and when the leagues are all gone, whats left of them maybe you will be happy. The huge majority of bowlers have never bowled in a tournament and even less have bowled in the Open. If you are not extraordinarily good bowler you are wasting your money. Donate it to the vets or cancer people they can use it.

Just from the small sample on this website, you see bowlers who want to become pro bowlers. I'm not saying they are full of themselves, but the perception I get, is, they feel that they have the skills to go pro without understanding what it's really like. Any darn good bowler on the current THS can get disillusioned into thinking this.

And, again, what I would suggest for the changes to the THS is not radical. A little more volume to the outsides more than anything else.

Having 7 different oil patterns from 36-42ft isn't a bad thing unless you make them play like a Cheetah, or a Shark, or a Chameleon, or even a US Open pattern. Then it would get ugly. People will drop out.

By keeping the changes very simple, it's not going to kill anybody. They will adjust faster than you think.

[bowl1820]

What I'm saying here, is, they can wait until after the 3 game set is over. Waiting until after the season is over is unreasonable.

Okay, after a 3 game set. You needed to specify that earlier, which is something you have to watch out for if you get with the USBC.

The USBC has a habit of making statements that are not specific about what they mean or how they (the rules) are applied and are left open to interpretation by the bowlers/local officials and then when someone interprets it in away different than someone else or what they (USBC) intended is when the problems arise.


As for giving the pattern after a set in league I don't really see any need. The reasons why the USBC did it for the Open don't really apply at the league level.

[ep1977]

One of the biggers myths in bowling is that house bowlers think they are as good as Pro bowlers.

I agree 100%!!! House bowlers also don't have ball reps telling them how to attack each lane condition and drilling them new balls to match each tournament. There are many factors that go into being good enough to be a pro and anyone with a brain realizes this and does not think that they are good enough.

[1VegasBowler]

Okay, after a 3 game set. You needed to specify that earlier, which is something you have to watch out for if you get with the USBC.

The USBC has a habit of making statements that are not specific about what they mean or how they (the rules) are applied and are left open to interpretation by the bowlers/local officials and then when someone interprets it in away different than someone else or what they (USBC) intended is when the problems arise.


As for giving the pattern after a set in league I don't really see any need. The reasons why the USBC did it for the Open don't really apply at the league level.

Point well taken. And with any type of proposal, the first draft is always the roughest and can certainly be changed, modified, etc., before the final product. It's also ideas that come to the local board where they could get their traction and the committee would certainly have to work hard for all of the little things that need to be fixed from the first draft.

I definitely agree with this. But this isn't just limited to the USBC. There are so any organizations out here that have rules without interpretations and the USBC just happens to be in the current cross hairs. (lol) However, the USBC could/should have a specific specific section with the interpretations of the vague rules we see. This way here everybody should be on the same page.

In contrast, I have seen some organizations who have interpreted their rules, but because somebody didn't like the interpretation they get and then they interpret it the way they want to. But that's a whole other can of worms for another day.

Maybe you don't have to, but it certainly won't hurt. While I understand why they're doing it for the US Open, part of that same reasoning can apply to leagues.

I certainly don't profess to know everything and never will. But at least we're having an open dialouge here and we all have our own thoughts coming out where we can certainly agree to disagree on an issue or 2.

I certainly wish that things like this would happen at the local USBC meetings so that people can air their thoughts and concerns, or even propose something. But as I said earlier, It ain't happenin'! lol

While all that I have said here may get absolutely no traction on the local level, being involved in our local associations needs to get better. I'm not saying there aren't some out here who do get involved, I think it's pretty safe to say that most local USBC meetings are only filled with board members, and it will only be what they want and agree to until the memberships come out and have their say and to vote up or down on any changes.

Same thing applied to the league meetings at the beginning and end of the season. The numbers in the meeting room (from my own accounts) are far different from who is out there throwing these rocks.

And the only ones we can blame for that is ourselves. We take far too much for granted, and our complacency ends up seeing changes we don't necessarily like.

[Jessiewoodard57]

I would like to see our house just go to the US open pattern ..I already bowl lousy but that would love to have that to work with

[fordman1]

1st off if any league went to a USBC shot without prior notice the league would fold in 2 weeks.

My 24 team 5 member league has more people at our organizational meeting than the largest local assn. yearly meeting in the country.
Just about everybody is at the year end meeting where officers are elected for next year. Payoff night with free beer and pizza.

Want to bowl on tougher patterns join a PBA or sport league.

Any time you have bowlers who design the shot for the USBC open tournament have a year to practice on it you are throwing away your money. It is for Pro or Semi pro bowlers. The rest are just having a bowling vacation.

[billf]

Oil patterns need to be tightened up. Most THS are now 9:1. Sport shot can't be higher than 3:1. Why not cut the difference in half and make a certfied house shot 6:1? If I had my way I would also make it flat and run from the 3 board to the 3 board rather than 8 to 8 as most are now.

[1VegasBowler]

I would like to see our house just go to the US open pattern ..I already bowl lousy but that would love to have that to work with

I don't see this happening unless you're in a Sport league.

This is a heavy oil pattern that even the pros have issues with, and by making this as a house shot would spell disaster for those who don't so Sport patterns. You would lose bowlers in droves.

[1VegasBowler]

Oil patterns need to be tightened up. Most THS are now 9:1. Sport shot can't be higher than 3:1. Why not cut the difference in half and make a certfied house shot 6:1? If I had my way I would also make it flat and run from the 3 board to the 3 board rather than 8 to 8 as most are now.

While I agree that the THS needs to be tightened up, going to a 6:1 ratio right away is another recipe for disaster.

I say keep the ratio at 9:1 but make it a little flatter by going 5 to 5 and having the heavier oil going just a little bit longer.

[1VegasBowler]

1st off if any league went to a USBC shot without prior notice the league would fold in 2 weeks.

My 24 team 5 member league has more people at our organizational meeting than the largest local assn. yearly meeting in the country.
Just about everybody is at the year end meeting where officers are elected for next year. Payoff night with free beer and pizza.

Want to bowl on tougher patterns join a PBA or sport league.

Any time you have bowlers who design the shot for the USBC open tournament have a year to practice on it you are throwing away your money. It is for Pro or Semi pro bowlers. The rest are just having a bowling vacation.

Couldn't agree more with this!

Currently I'm doing a Sport league where they're using Viper, Scorpion and Cheetah, and while they aren't all too bad, they are not easy by any means.

By adding these patterns to or as a THS, bowlers will leave in a hurry because they are not prepared for what these patterns can do to you.

Even I had enough sense to get a ball and have it drilled to handle Sport patterns, but not everybody can do that. Bowling is expensive to begin with and by forcing bowlers to by equipment they don't want to have is going to push them away.

[fordman1]

What would make the shot harder for league bowlers going out to the 5 board or going to 6 to 1 or even 3 to 1?

[1VegasBowler]

What would make the shot harder for league bowlers going out to the 5 board or going to 6 to 1 or even 3 to 1?

Because a lot of league bowlers (from what I've seen) don't know how to handle a lot of oil. Heck, they can't handle the transition on a THS and to expect them to adjust to a larger of volume of oil won't bode well.

Now, I'm not saying all of the bowlers wouldn't be able to adjust, but the ones who can't will go away.

I know plenty of bowlers who are pretty darn good on a THS, but will not go anywhere near Sport patterns because of their egos, and that same ego will get hurt for quite a while until they know how to make adjustments.

While going to a 3:1 ratio over time might not be a bad thing, I just think that it has to be done gradually. JMO.

[Mike White]

What would make the shot harder for league bowlers going out to the 5 board or going to 6 to 1 or even 3 to 1?

It's not just the 3 to 1 that makes sport conditions more difficult for most people, it's the minimum of 10 units.

Also the fact that the lanes are measured each time, so that 10 unit rule can't be ignored.

On a THS, there is supposed to be 3 units minimum, but since they are never inspected, you get a lot of boards at or close to 0 units.

If they gave THS bowlers a 3 to 1 conditions, but with a 3 unit minimum, many could still score well.

The biggest problem that a THS bowler runs into when trying sport bowling, is their ball won't rev up on 10 units of oil, so it just skids thru the back ends.

Oiling out to the 5 board hurts people who don't think about what could be different.

10 board works last time, it should work this time, so they never move.

If you stay at 10 board, on a 5 to 5 shot, it's like staying at 15, on a 10 to 10 shot, the ball won't rev up.

If you can convince people to move, 5 to 5 is just as easy as 10 to 10.

[fordman1]

I am not as smart as many here but unless you are a down and in player as opposed to one who likes to belly the ball a bit playing 10 is much easier than playing 5. Playing 5 the gutter looks like the grand canyon to some bowlers. Playing 10-15 they can relax. Every one seems to thing every one wants to go bowl for blood.

[1VegasBowler]

I am not as smart as many here but unless you are a down and in player as opposed to one who likes to belly the ball a bit playing 10 is much easier than playing 5. Playing 5 the gutter looks like the grand canyon to some bowlers. Playing 10-15 they can relax. Every one seems to thing every one wants to go bowl for blood.

The bowler who uses a house ball (for the most part) or the bowler who has his/her own ball and only throws is straight is never going to care what the conditions are on the lanes.

I don't say that everybody is out for blood, but there are many players who want to be competitive when they go out there. They want to be able to have some control of what they're doing and maintain their 160's - 180's averages, and those are the ones you won't see playing in Sport leagues.

For many bowlers, getting out of their comfort zone is too much of a task for them and those are the bowlers you see more than anybody else. By adding too much oil you're asking them to process far too much and leave their comfort zone. It's counter productive.

[Jaescrub]

The bowler who uses a house ball (for the most part) or the bowler who has his/her own ball and only throws is straight is never going to care what the conditions are on the lanes.

I don't say that everybody is out for blood, but there are many players who want to be competitive when they go out there. They want to be able to have some control of what they're doing and maintain their 160's - 180's averages, and those are the ones you won't see playing in Sport leagues.

For many bowlers, getting out of their comfort zone is too much of a task for them and those are the bowlers you see more than anybody else. By adding too much oil you're asking them to process far too much and leave their comfort zone. It's counter productive.

I feel you on this, they are the same bowlers that will get super loud and angry when they are not killing it. I would join a sport league here in town but everyone I know if you have to keep a 200+ avg or you get a fine ;/

[1VegasBowler]

I feel you on this, they are the same bowlers that will get super loud and angry when they are not killing it. I would join a sport league here in town but everyone I know if you have to keep a 200+ avg or you get a fine ;/

Not quite that bad in the one I'm in now..lol

Averages in the PBA Experience league I'm in right now are anywhere from 145-216 and every week is a position week. lol

[Mike White]

I am not as smart as many here but unless you are a down and in player as opposed to one who likes to belly the ball a bit playing 10 is much easier than playing 5. Playing 5 the gutter looks like the grand canyon to some bowlers. Playing 10-15 they can relax. Every one seems to thing every one wants to go bowl for blood.

If there is oil from 10 and in, and dry outside of 10, how often do you get close to the 5 board?

With resin balls, that answer should be never.

Therefore, if they oil out to 5, your ball should never get close to 0.

If you're going more than 5 boards outside of the oil, you haven't learned how to be even remotely accurate.

[RobLV1]

If there is oil from 10 and in, and dry outside of 10, how often do you get close to the 5 board?

With resin balls, that answer should be never.

Therefore, if they oil out to 5, your ball should never get close to 0.

If you're going more than 5 boards outside of the oil, you haven't learned how to be even remotely accurate.

OMG, we agree! LOL

[classygranny]

OMG, we agree! LOL

Mike White and RobLV1 agree!!!

Must be a cold day in HELL; and I know that for a fact. HELL sent their heat to Phoenix - this weekend high was 116 degrees. Yeah, summer is here!

[1VegasBowler]

Mike White and RobLV1 agree!!!

Must be a cold day in HELL; and I know that for a fact. HELL sent their heat to Phoenix - this weekend high was 116 degrees. Yeah, summer is here!

Mark this date down in history boys and girls!!

Wasn't much cooler here in Vegas! lol

[Mike White]

Mike White and RobLV1 agree!!!

Must be a cold day in HELL; and I know that for a fact. HELL sent their heat to Phoenix - this weekend high was 116 degrees. Yeah, summer is here!

I passed thru Tuscon years ago when it was 120... stop complaining, it's a dry heat :)

[classygranny]

I passed thru Tuscon years ago when it was 120... stop complaining, it's a dry heat :)

I wasn't complaining....I said, Yeah! Summer is here. I meant it, I love the heat - except when the bowling alley doesn't turn the air on until 10am when we start at 9:30am.

[Mike White]

I wasn't complaining....I said, Yeah! Summer is here. I meant it, I love the heat - except when the bowling alley doesn't turn the air on until 10am when we start at 9:30am.

Then what you hate is the bowling alley management's decision process.


I like the heat because my goal is to complete 18 holes of golf with a score below the temperature.

The higher the temperature, the closer to my goal, but the also the less likely I am to finish the round.

It's a tough balancing act.

In bowling my goal was to average my age plus my weight.

25 years ago I could achieve that regularly, but now the calendar, and scale are conspiring against me.

[Mike White]

OMG, we agree! LOL

Now can you extrapolate from that, why I use urethane?

[fordman1]

If there is oil from 10 and in, and dry outside of 10, how often do you get close to the 5 board?

With resin balls, that answer should be never.

Therefore, if they oil out to 5, your ball should never get close to 0.

If you're going more than 5 boards outside of the oil, you haven't learned how to be even remotely accurate.

That wasn't the question. Oiling out to 5 rather than to 10 would give a bowler who swings the ball much less area to play with. It amazes me how many 180 or less bowlers get on here and talk about bowling and hitting one board. If you can be as accurate as they all seem to be you should be averaging 225+ on the house shot. It also seems strange that bowlers are averaging close to the house average on sports shots. That is not a real sport shot is you do that. We have a sports league every summer and no one has ever averaged 200.
Also no one who throws a 12 lb. ball should be talking about the difference between sport and house shots.
As to the averaging their weight + age I don't think I could have ever did that in my life. When I got out of the army in 1967 I weighed 185 and was 21 years old. Today I would have to average 340. 270 +70 maybe we need that new scoring system. I use a 15 lb. ball and have often thought about going to 16.

[Amyers]

That wasn't the question. Oiling out to 5 rather than to 10 would give a bowler who swings the ball much less area to play with. It amazes me how many 180 or less bowlers get on here and talk about bowling and hitting one board. If you can be as accurate as they all seem to be you should be averaging 225+ on the house shot.

People tend to overestimate their accuracy a lot and it's not just on here. A lot of people tend to think if any part of their ball passes over the intended target board they hit their target. It's also true that having 1-1.5 board accuracy at the arrows really isn't that difficult having 1-1.5 board accuracy at 45 ft. at the breakpoint is a whole different ball game and vastly more important. Something else to consider is true of even some decent bowlers I've seen they may have decent accuracy but you can hit 11 all day but if the shots at 7 it really doesn't matter how accurate you are.


It also seems strange that bowlers are averaging close to the house average on sports shots. That is not a real sport shot is you do that. We have a sports league every summer and no one has ever averaged 200


Not all sport shots are super difficult and some are down right diabolical in my book. I tend to bowl better on longer patterns which are a feature of most of the sport shots put down here so yes I'm one of those guys that average close to my house shot average on sport or challenge conditions. I don't know about your league house in Dearborn but I've seen lots of posts from tournaments on sport shots in Michigan and not to many finishes in the top 10 sub 200 from what I've seen.


Also no one who throws a 12 lb. ball should be talking about the difference between sport and house shots.

What weight ball you throw has no baring whatsoever on what kind of patterns you bowl on. Also taking continued pot shots at a member is frowned :( upon on this site unless is Mwhite, Aslan, or Rob and even that gets out of hand sometimes but can be funny.

[1VegasBowler]

That wasn't the question. Oiling out to 5 rather than to 10 would give a bowler who swings the ball much less area to play with. It amazes me how many 180 or less bowlers get on here and talk about bowling and hitting one board. If you can be as accurate as they all seem to be you should be averaging 225+ on the house shot. It also seems strange that bowlers are averaging close to the house average on sports shots. That is not a real sport shot is you do that. We have a sports league every summer and no one has ever averaged 200.
Also no one who throws a 12 lb. ball should be talking about the difference between sport and house shots.
As to the averaging their weight + age I don't think I could have ever did that in my life. When I got out of the army in 1967 I weighed 185 and was 21 years old. Today I would have to average 340. 270 +70 maybe we need that new scoring system. I use a 15 lb. ball and have often thought about going to 16.

Here's Mr. Judge & Jury talking about somebody (me) throwing a 12# ball when you are clueless as to why. But, because you throw either a 14#, 15# or even a 16# ball, it must make you the most qualified expert there is out here. Again, you must certainly be a legend in your own mind despite the fact that the USBC and the PBA have not placed you in their Hall of Fames.

OMG! That's my bad! You're not even a member of the PBA! I guess you are one of those that couldn't or can't cut the mustard to be a PBA member! Then again, since you haven't been a 200+ bowler since 2012-2013, you can't even qualify for PBA membership. And since I see you haven't been in a Sport league since 2013-14 that never entered your scores it makes me think that maybe you are the one who is clueless about Sport shots.

Unlike you, I have no illusions or delusions about my bowling. I have not bowled long enough and not good enough to even be considered for the USBC HOF, and nor am I good enough to even be a member of the PBA.

And as I do bowl on both House and Sport shots, I can certainly talk about the differences because they are obvious, whereas you are so darn good at both you just breeze through all of them. It's such a mystery as to why you aren't a HOF'er!

[bowl1820]

People tend to overestimate their accuracy a lot and it's not just on here.

You got that right!

Back When I first got on ballreviews.com, It was amazing all the 200+ ave. bowler's that said they were splitting boards and moving their mark a 1/4" at the arrows or 40 + ft.down the lane. Then you ask them to post a C.A.T.S. sheet to prove it, then it's ...........................


That and all the ones that were so consistent, they could control their speed to a 1/16 or 1/4 mph and made adjustments by moving their feet a 1/8th of inch.