RADICAL New Scoring System

[NewToBowling]

This would eliminate the perfect 300 game.

Scoring stays the same. The only difference would be the 10th frame. You keep rolling until you stop striking. So you could conceivably have scores in the 600's, 1,000's, etc

It could look like this:

First nine frames: x/x xxx /xx

10th Frame: xxx xxx x- (basically 7 strikes until he left an open)

If you mark in the 10th you still get 3 rolls (just like how it is now). The only way to advance past the 3rd ball is the get XXX

Yeah, this would never fly but I think it would be interesting...

[Jconner91]

Ive always wondered about a scoring system just like the normal but in the 10th you can keep striking until you miss. That would be pretty crazy to be losing by like 120 team total and throw 12 strikes in a row to win.

[fordman1]

There is an old saying

"Don't go away mad just go away"

[NewToBowling]

Ive always wondered about a scoring system just like the normal but in the 10th you can keep striking until you miss. That would be pretty crazy to be losing by like 120 team total and throw 12 strikes in a row to win.

That would be fun to watch. Just like baseball, no guarantee until that last out

[foreverincamo]

Already 3 hour league night. This could make it 4 hours. No thanks

[LyalC52]

back in the 90's I bowled some tourneys that had endless 10ths

fun way to shake things up

I think the PBA did an event or two with this format too

[jimgilmore]

Sound like a system that would let better players sandbag to the very last frame by even more.

[NewToBowling]

To make the game even last longer play it with "baseball" rules. You get 1 out per frame (any non-strike is an "out"). So you strike until you leave an open. You have the chance to pick up that spare but after that you're "out" and you move onto the next frame. Would be some interesting scores.

[Mike White]

To make the game even last longer play it with "baseball" rules. You get 1 out per frame (any non-strike is an "out"). So you strike until you leave an open. You have the chance to pick up that spare but after that you're "out" and you move onto the next frame. Would be some interesting scores.

Will it take 45 seconds or more between each "pitch"?

And 5-7 minutes between frames for commercial breaks?

[NewToBowling]

Will it take 45 seconds or more between each "pitch"?

And 5-7 minutes between frames for commercial breaks?

Sure. Every roll matters

[Jessiewoodard57]

Personally I think it's best left where it is. Nascar changed the scoring so many times that many of us just got fed up and left. I have not turned them back on since they went to this Chase format. Back to bowling ...think back to the Tom Daugherty 100 game losing to his opponent by 199 pins. As bad as that was under what your purposing a rule if in the 10 he came back and rolled 10 strikes he would have won. Does not seem fair to an opponent. In the tenth many bowlers look to see what we need to roll to shut out the other guy. We need to leave it alone. Just my opinion

[JasonNJ]

I say leave the scoring the way it is. Some of the stuff proposed you can use it in a skills contest like baseball HR derby. You keep rolling until you get 3 outs or non strikes. To make it as fair as possible, each player gets their own pair of lanes to throw that way one player doesn't burn up the oil for the other.

[1VegasBowler]

I see nothing broken with what we have. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Huber]

I like the current system just fine! All these others are just weird

[LOUVIT]

I've herd of the world scoring only 1 ball in the 10th. 30 for each strike. They even used it once on TV. I like it the way it is. the 10th should be the pressure frame, leave well enough alone. IMO

[Mike White]

I see nothing broken with what we have. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Not broken?

If you go 9 spare, then 11 in a row, you score 290.

If I go 11 in a row, then a 9 count, I score 299.

We've both thrown the same length of strikes.

When we miss, we both left just one pin.

And you've shown you have the ability to pick up that one pin, while I haven't.

Yet my score is higher. That ain't broken?

[LOUVIT]

Mike, IMO if you throw the first 11 there is a heck of alot of pressure on you for the 12th. if you start with the 9/ there's a big difference in #12

[fordman1]

In baseball if my team gets on base with a walk, and error and another walk then gets a home run in the ninth that is 4 RUNS.
Your team gets 3 home runs and a walk you only have 3 RUNS.
Your team did better but lost.
I have had both 299 and 290. More pressure in the the 299. I have had 278 with 11 in a row. Greek church and 11 in a row, Also seen 295 games just the other way.
If if's and buts were candy and nuts we would all have a Merry Christmas......

[LOUVIT]

fordman got it......even though I'm a Chevyman....lol seriously I agree with him

[Mike White]

Mike, IMO if you throw the first 11 there is a heck of alot of pressure on you for the 12th. if you start with the 9/ there's a big difference in #12

Not anymore. 300 games have lost their meaning.

[Mike White]

In baseball if my team gets on base with a walk, and error and another walk then gets a home run in the ninth that is 4 RUNS.
Your team gets 3 home runs and a walk you only have 3 RUNS.
Your team did better but lost.
I have had both 299 and 290. More pressure in the the 299. I have had 278 with 11 in a row. Greek church and 11 in a row, Also seen 295 games just the other way.
If if's and buts were candy and nuts we would all have a Merry Christmas......

My team may have hit better, but it lost due to poor pitching and fielding, so no, it didn't do better overall.

There is only pressure if the score means something.

Now all a 300 means is a game won, and maybe not even that.

[jimgilmore]

Want to mix thins up make all usbc leagues play position weeks and such on sport patterns or better.Take away the predictability or ths.

[Mike White]

Want to mix thins up make all usbc leagues play position weeks and such on sport patterns or better.Take away the predictability or ths.

Predictability is not a bad thing.

A condition that provides help is a bad thing.

When a person misses their target two or more boards left, the ball should not skid straight to the pocket.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3FPWeQUUzc

That is an example of way too much help from the oil pattern.

Take away that hold area and I doubt he averages 150.

[1VegasBowler]

Not broken?

If you go 9 spare, then 11 in a row, you score 290.

If I go 11 in a row, then a 9 count, I score 299.

We've both thrown the same length of strikes.

When we miss, we both left just one pin.

And you've shown you have the ability to pick up that one pin, while I haven't.

Yet my score is higher. That ain't broken?

While we may have thrown the same length in strikes, there's a big difference between the front 11 and the back 11.

The difference is the front 11 are more important than the back 11 for the perfect game, and once you miss the first one you know you can't be perfect.

[1VegasBowler]

Want to mix thins up make all usbc leagues play position weeks and such on sport patterns or better.Take away the predictability or ths.

Then you have to have it classified as a Sport League, and once you do that you can't use the THS for the other weeks.

And don't forget that there are a lot of people who don't want any part of Sport patterns, that's why they have the THS.

[jimgilmore]

So how would changeing the scoring system be any different ?

[1VegasBowler]

So how would changeing the scoring system be any different ?

I don't want to change the scoring system.

[Mike White]

I don't want to change the scoring system.

I don't want to change it either... but that's not the same thing as saying it's not broken.

[Mike White]

Then you have to have it classified as a Sport League, and once you do that you can't use the THS for the other weeks.

And don't forget that there are a lot of people who don't want any part of Sport patterns, that's why they have the THS.

What do you base that on?

If the lane man accidentally puts the wrong pattern out for a THS league night, do you really think by bowling on that wrong pattern the scores don't count?

[1VegasBowler]

What do you base that on?

If the lane man accidentally puts the wrong pattern out for a THS league night, do you really think by bowling on that wrong pattern the scores don't count?

The gentleman was saying to purposely use a Sport pattern. And even if it is "accidental", be very careful of the bowler(s) who know how Sport patterns work and sooner or later they're gonna raise he11, and that can spell trouble. Just sayin'.

[classygranny]

We just learned on Friday that for about 2 months or so the oil the alley was using was part oil and part cleaner. No wonder it's been an interesting 6 weeks at that house. Machines are only going to do what the people tell them to do - right or wrong. Still everyone bowled on the same condition, so all is equal.

Keep in mind that not all THSs are the same. I bowl in two different Brunswick houses and they are NOT the same THS pattern. Maybe more verification by the USBC would be a good place to start along with some changing of the oil patterns. I'm not saying all THS's should be the same, but the house needs to be responsible enough to use the right oil and within the amounts specified, or be held accountable by someone - the USBC?

[Mike White]

The gentleman was saying to purposely use a Sport pattern. And even if it is "accidental", be very careful of the bowler(s) who know how Sport patterns work and sooner or later they're gonna raise he11, and that can spell trouble. Just sayin'.

Not what the other guy said, just what you said.

"Then you have to have it classified as a Sport League, and once you do that you can't use the THS for the other weeks."

A Standard League has no rules about oil patterns that would eliminate using the US Open pattern (on purpose, or accident).

[Mike White]

We just learned on Friday that for about 2 months or so the oil the alley was using was part oil and part cleaner. No wonder it's been an interesting 6 weeks at that house. Machines are only going to do what the people tell them to do - right or wrong. Still everyone bowled on the same condition, so all is equal.

Keep in mind that not all THSs are the same. I bowl in two different Brunswick houses and they are NOT the same THS pattern. Maybe more verification by the USBC would be a good place to start along with some changing of the oil patterns. I'm not saying all THS's should be the same, but the house needs to be responsible enough to use the right oil and within the amounts specified, or be held accountable by someone - the USBC?

Not all equal if it's a handicap league.

Usually the higher average bowlers will be punished more because they were able to figure out the easier condition, and the clueless will still be clueless on the screwed up condition.

If you want fair, bowl scratch.

It's your ability directly vs your opponents.

If they are better than you, get busy improving.

Handicap especially 90% or more eliminates the incentive to improve your abilities.

[1VegasBowler]

Not what the other guy said, just what you said.

"Then you have to have it classified as a Sport League, and once you do that you can't use the THS for the other weeks."

A Standard League has no rules about oil patterns that would eliminate using the US Open pattern (on purpose, or accident).

A Standard league is classified that does not use a Sport pattern, and Sport Bowling USBC Rule 200a 2 says the following: The conditions bowled on are considered to be of a different variety than what is considered a “Standard” or “house” pattern.

This eliminates the use of the US Open pattern because it is considered a Sport pattern.

[Mike White]

A Standard league is classified that does not use a Sport pattern, and Sport Bowling USBC Rule 200a 2 says the following: The conditions bowled on are considered to be of a different variety than what is considered a “Standard” or “house” pattern.

This eliminates the use of the US Open pattern because it is considered a Sport pattern.

Rule 200a doesn't apply to a Standard League.

Rule 200a says a Sport League can't use just any ole pattern.

That says nothing about what a Standard League can use.

[1VegasBowler]

Rule 200a doesn't apply to a Standard League.

Rule 200a says a Sport League can't use just any ole pattern.

That says nothing about what a Standard League can use.

I have sent an email to the USBC asking them if a Sport pattern can be used at any time during Standard league play, and what rule(s) cover the answer to this question.

As soon as I get the answer I will post it here.

[jimgilmore]

Actually my Point was based on the OP idea of a radical new scoring system.
I personally do not see a need to change the scoring system.
I do have an issue with the handicap system which favor better bowlers and allowing them to dump on a regular basis.
One example is a practice league Iamon right now and even though I am getting the benifit I would like to see it changed. Here is why.
The handicap is 90% of 210. and the bye team is set at 140 per bowler.
so 140 + 140 is 280. and their handicap is 70*90=63 each so it is 126.
280 + 126=406
my team is 159 +187=346 and our handicaps are 45+20=65 so 346+65=411 My partner was not there so that meant a loss of 10 .so 401. I had to bowl my average +5 pins.
Not a hard ting to do some days and I felt that's fair....where I have an issue is that the team I bowled the week before was 2 women whom had very low averages.
For them to win they need to bowl like 10-20 pins over each game. I'd prefer to see blinds or vacant teams be set to some percent of the team they are playings average...
Like say the team has to bow their average +5 pins per bowler to win.
What I do not like about bowling with handicap and better bowlers is the consistant marking by the opponent till they are above you then they start missing their spares and pocket shots and not gaining higher than a few pins to win by just enough.

[1VegasBowler]

Actually my Point was based on the OP idea of a radical new scoring system.
I personally do not see a need to change the scoring system.
I do have an issue with the handicap system which favor better bowlers and allowing them to dump on a regular basis.
One example is a practice league Iamon right now and even though I am getting the benifit I would like to see it changed. Here is why.
The handicap is 90% of 210. and the bye team is set at 140 per bowler.
so 140 + 140 is 280. and their handicap is 70*90=63 each so it is 126.
280 + 126=406
my team is 159 +187=346 and our handicaps are 45+20=65 so 346+65=411 My partner was not there so that meant a loss of 10 .so 401. I had to bowl my average +5 pins.
Not a hard ting to do some days and I felt that's fair....where I have an issue is that the team I bowled the week before was 2 women whom had very low averages.
For them to win they need to bowl like 10-20 pins over each game. I'd prefer to see blinds or vacant teams be set to some percent of the team they are playings average...
Like say the team has to bow their average +5 pins per bowler to win.
What I do not like about bowling with handicap and better bowlers is the consistant marking by the opponent till they are above you then they start missing their spares and pocket shots and not gaining higher than a few pins to win by just enough.

While I agree in theory with what you say with the handicap, how do you handle the bowlers who are just out there to be social butterflies and don't care about how they bowl?

I don't ask that to be a snot, but I had 3 teammates on 2 teams that didn't care what their score was, and it would be the rarest of occasions that they bowl over their average.

While I do like about the scratch league that I'm in now, I know there are going to be tough nights when I have to bowl against those who are 20-25 pins better than I am. While I have to keep up with them however I can, it's ain't gonna be easy! lol

I know there are going to be times when I'm over matched, but despite the fact I know this, I also know that a challenge is what I'm in it for as well. Whether the challenge is the pattern, my opposition, myself or all 3, I have to do my best to overcome those challenges. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, but I learn more each time.

There's no easy solution to this, and the USBC is reluctant to change much of anything when it comes to handicaps, and until a really viable solution comes up to make it better I don't forsee any changes in the future.

JMO.

[1VegasBowler]

I have sent an email to the USBC asking them if a Sport pattern can be used at any time during Standard league play, and what rule(s) cover the answer to this question.

As soon as I get the answer I will post it here.

Here is the answer to this from Kathy at the USBC office in Texas.

If at anytime a Standard league uses a Sport pattern at anytime during league play they must be certified as a Sport League because the conditions have drastically changed and affects the averages of bowlers from 10-30 pins.

If a league member complains to the local USBC that the league is using a Sport pattern during league play, the local USBC must have that league changed to be certified as a Sport league.

If anybody wants to call the USBC as I did, their number is 800-514-2695. From the options menu go to Rules. Again, I spoke with Kathy about this.

[jimgilmore]

1.) I am handicapped. I bowl for fun and while most all leagues have some kind of prize fund.
2.)I'd prefer to see all leagues drop the average as being from the start of the league. Make your average be for the last three weeks only. It reduces the ability of one to use a bad week against an opponent to hold their average lower , and when the bowl great against a tough opponent their average will jump up in relation to what they bowl.
While many complain about how often a lower average team beats them USBC has stated that at 80 % handicap. The higher average team still wins 95% of the time.
3.) I'd prefer to see leagues make the teams. Not player derived. You join and the league will set the team in a way to make all teams within a closer average.
4.) That would make the teams closer both scratch and the handicap would almost not matter.
5.) And your average would be based on your last highest average on the same pattern. So if your bowling on a sport shot and ths the one your going to play on is used.
6.) Your average cannot drop more than a certain number of points below that starting average .
This prevents the higher average bowlers from starting low and bowling a little better each week to maintain max handicap.
7.) along these samelimes you cannot use a sub with a 220 average tp replace a bowler with a 100 average.

[Mike White]

Here is the answer to this from Kathy at the USBC office in Texas.

If at anytime a Standard league uses a Sport pattern at anytime during league play they must be certified as a Sport League because the conditions have drastically changed and affects the averages of bowlers from 10-30 pins.

If a league member complains to the local USBC that the league is using a Sport pattern during league play, the local USBC must have that league changed to be certified as a Sport league.

If anybody wants to call the USBC as I did, their number is 800-514-2695. From the options menu go to Rules. Again, I spoke with Kathy about this.

Classic USBC, they gave you an opinion, but no specific rule.

With no rule, they can't enforce that opinion.

[fordman1]

Maybe your leagues should adopt rules like my league uses.
Any new bowler to the league uses the highest book average from the last 3 years
Bowlers with at least 21 games from last year will use the final league average.
If a returning bowler has less than 21 games they are a new bowler.
All bowlers new or returning use a 21 game cushion. They start as if they have already bowled 21 games.
After they actually have 21 games bowled we drop the cushion.
There is a 10 pin drop rule. No bowler can drop more than 10 pins no matter what.
No individual h\c it is all team and it is 90% from 1100 for all teams.
If your team is bowling a team that is forfeiting or a vacant team, your team must bowl within 50 pins of its avg. or you lose the points. Absent or vacant teams can under no circumstances earn points.

I forgot to add that if 2/3's of the board of directors think you are sandbagging the league will rerate your average.

[1VegasBowler]

Maybe your leagues should adopt rules like my league uses.
Any new bowler to the league uses the highest book average from the last 3 years
Bowlers with at least 21 games from last year will use the final league average.
If a returning bowler has less than 21 games they are a new bowler.
All bowlers new or returning use a 21 game cushion. They start as if they have already bowled 21 games.
After they actually have 21 games bowled we drop the cushion.
There is a 10 pin drop rule. No bowler can drop more than 10 pins no matter what.
No individual h\c it is all team and it is 90% from 1100 for all teams.
If your team is bowling a team that is forfeiting or a vacant team, your team must bowl within 50 pins of its avg. or you lose the points. Absent or vacant teams can under no circumstances earn points.

I forgot to add that if 2/3's of the board of directors think you are sandbagging the league will rerate your average.

Is it the board of directors or the league officers? Just asking for clarification.

[fordman1]

Board.

[fordman1]

I forgot to add that anyone who doesn't have any average to use (hasn't bowled in 3 years or ever) must come in at 195 for 9 games. Then get what ever average they have so far.

[LOUVIT]

Fordman, I haven't had an average for over 20 years, so if I join a handicapped league my first few weeks are me at a 195 average? Did I understand it correctly? That's giving away alot of pins on the handicap if I really only shoot 150's...just an example

[1VegasBowler]

In the 2 leagues I was in this past winter, I established my average after my 3 games on night #1 since I did not have an average.

With the PBA Experience league, unless you have bowled in a Sport league, your average is established after your first 4 games in night #1. They certainly fluctuate a lot because they are a Sport pattern. And because we change patterns every 4 weeks, you can never get comfortable on one before the other..lol

First 4 are Viper, next 4 are Scorpion and final 4 will be Cheetah. The night of sweepers is Cheetah as well, but will have zero bearing on your average.

The league rules are setup by each league and they can pretty much do as they please.

[fordman1]

Lou the only new bowlers are the friends or relatives who bowl just to help out someone. Mostly as subs, 6th, 7th, 8th man. There are better leagues for bowlers who are just coming back or have never been. We get maybe 4 or 5 a season. That's out of 184 bowlers who certified in my league.

The 195 is around the league average that is where the number originally came from about 10-15 years ago.

[billf]

1.) I am handicapped. I bowl for fun and while most all leagues have some kind of prize fund.
2.)I'd prefer to see all leagues drop the average as being from the start of the league. Make your average be for the last three weeks only. It reduces the ability of one to use a bad week against an opponent to hold their average lower , and when the bowl great against a tough opponent their average will jump up in relation to what they bowl.
While many complain about how often a lower average team beats them USBC has stated that at 80 % handicap. The higher average team still wins 95% of the time.
3.) I'd prefer to see leagues make the teams. Not player derived. You join and the league will set the team in a way to make all teams within a closer average.
4.) That would make the teams closer both scratch and the handicap would almost not matter.
5.) And your average would be based on your last highest average on the same pattern. So if your bowling on a sport shot and ths the one your going to play on is used.
6.) Your average cannot drop more than a certain number of points below that starting average .
This prevents the higher average bowlers from starting low and bowling a little better each week to maintain max handicap.
7.) along these samelimes you cannot use a sub with a 220 average tp replace a bowler with a 100 average.


These are all LEAGUE issues not USBC issues. The league's board of directors (officers and captains) vote to keep or change any of these at league meetings as they are brought up.

[billf]

Classic USBC, they gave you an opinion, but no specific rule.

With no rule, they can't enforce that opinion.

Rule 200a

[1VegasBowler]

Rule 200a

Now where have I seen that before??

[Mike White]

Rule 200a

Again, Rule 200a is if you elect to have a sport condition league.

If you elect to have a standard league, the rules that are related to Sport Condition leagues don't apply.

The criteria to have a legal oil pattern in a Standard league state 3 units minimum.

If you put out a condition that has 10 units as it's lowest amount, you still fit under the Standard criteria.

From the Equipment Specification Manual, page 47.


D Retention

In addition to compliance with all other terms and conditions of the certification requirements,
retention of a certificate shall be subject to the following:

1. If dressing is used, it shall meet specifications and must comply with the following:
a. Dressing must be distributed from edge board to edge board for the entire
distance that dressing is applied. (In the application of this rule, buffing the lane
is considered applying dressing.)
b. Following any application of dressing, in the dressed portion of the lane there
shall be a minimum of three units of dressing at all points on the lane surface.
c. Any stripping (cleaning) of dressing from the lanes must be uniform from edge
board to edge board and at least from the headpin to the distance to which dressing has been applied.