How do know if my span is too wide?

[LOUVIT]

I'm pretty sure it is. Had this ball about a month or so, my first new ball since making the comeback. first it started cutting my thumb creese. I had that beveled. Now I feel my fingers hurting, not just the tips the whole 2 fingers. I do feel like I am stretching to get my thumb in. Is there a rule like should your palm be touching the ball/ or should there be some space between the ball and your palm...etc? Also I wonder if the thumb should be moved left or right of where it is now. Hope I explained this enough.

thanks
Lou

[Mike White]

I'm pretty sure it is. Had this ball about a month or so, my first new ball since making the comeback. first it started cutting my thumb creese. I had that beveled. Now I feel my fingers hurting, not just the tips the whole 2 fingers. I do feel like I am stretching to get my thumb in. Is there a rule like should your palm be touching the ball/ or should there be some space between the ball and your palm...etc? Also I wonder if the thumb should be moved left or right of where it is now. Hope I explained this enough.

thanks
Lou

Put a mark on the two fingers you insert into the ball, half way between the two knuckles.

Now put just the thumb into the ball, and lay your fingers across, but not in the finger holes.

The closest edge (not including bevel) of each finger hole should be in line with where you put the mark on each finger.

If you have inserts, use the edge of the hole in the insert, not the actual hole drilled into the ball.

[LOUVIT]

Here's a pic of my fingers with a relaxed span of my hand. (don't mind the fingernail, little accident but it doesn't hurt a bit...lol)http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/louvit/span1_zpswaotr16e.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/louvit/span_zpsbull9ghi.jpg

[bowl1820]

Just going by those pictures, it appears the span is a little long ( looks like about 1/4" maybe).

Just to double check, follow Mikes instructions,

But hold the ball like your going to roll it. So that it settles into your hand, then without moving your hand.

Example:
http://s5.postimg.org/ac7neq07b/span_02.jpg

Rotate the ball back up so you can see where the edge of the holes are in relation to the midpoint between the two joints. (or get a picture form below lik this one.)

[LOUVIT]

Just going by those pictures, it appears the span is a little long ( looks like about 1/4" maybe).

Just to double check, follow Mikes instructions,

But hold the ball like your going to roll it. So that it settles into your hand, then without moving your hand.

Example:
http://s5.postimg.org/ac7neq07b/span_02.jpg

Rotate the ball back up so you can see where the edge of the holes are in relation to the midpoint between the two joints. (or get a picture form below lik this one.)


thanks I will do that when I can get someone to take the pic. I can't do that position alone lol. Now are your fingers relaxed or stretched a bit. I'm going to say relaxed.

In your opinion since this ball was just drilled a month ago should the shop charge me to fix it? Really not an issue but I just would like to know if they should fix it free. I would guess the thumb has to be plugged and re drilled

[bowl1820]

Now are your fingers relaxed or stretched a bit. I'm going to say relaxed.

Relaxed, the ball is sitting more naturally like it would when your bowling in that position, your just letting it fall where it naturally would in your hand sort of speak.

remember also you have to check the both fingers. Because those are two different spans, one can be off and the other right on, both off etc.

and that there is only so much that you can tell from a photo, it's not the same as doing it in person.


In your opinion since this ball was just drilled a month ago should the shop charge me to fix it? Really not an issue but I just would like to know if they should fix it free. I would guess the thumb has to be plugged and re drilled

I can't speak to that, it would all depend on the shop operator. Just go in and talk to him about it.

As to how they fix it, yeah you just plug the hole and redrill it.

[classygranny]

thanks I will do that when I can get someone to take the pic. I can't do that position alone lol. Now are your fingers relaxed or stretched a bit. I'm going to say relaxed.

In your opinion since this ball was just drilled a month ago should the shop charge me to fix it? Really not an issue but I just would like to know if they should fix it free. I would guess the thumb has to be plugged and re drilled

I know my PSO would fix it for no charge, at lease for all the regulars - but I would be surprised if he didn't fix any misdrilled ball (although I'm not sure he's ever misdrilled a ball). A friend of mine had a slight adjustment needed for the same reason, and he elected to plug and move the finger holes as to not disturb the IT. Actually, the change in span was due to an injury between the time he measured and the time my friend picked up the ball, but he still fixed it for free.

[LOUVIT]

Either way it has to be done. I have to get this ball right before the Storm phaze I won on here shows up and gets drilled. At least now I'm pretty sure the span is too wide for me.

[LOUVIT]

wish I had a shop that would take the time to fit me. As I said in another thread I know my span is too long and I know he will just plug and drill the thumb for me without anything else. Since I am new to the shop it seems they just drill and say good...I'll be going tomorrow to see if they will take some time with me. I can't tell them what to do I know nothing about pitch or pap's etc.

[NewToBowling]

Put a mark on the two fingers you insert into the ball, half way between the two knuckles.

Now put just the thumb into the ball, and lay your fingers across, but not in the finger holes.

The closest edge (not including bevel) of each finger hole should be in line with where you put the mark on each finger.

If you have inserts, use the edge of the hole in the insert, not the actual hole drilled into the ball.

I have stiff fingers (ie not very flexible) and if I recall correctly my fingers first knuckle is at the further edge of finger hole. And to me that seems to be the way I prefer or at least it doesn't feel wrong.

[LOUVIT]

I think I'd be real comfy with a semi fingertip as my fingers and hands are stiff also. I just don't think that will do it these day's. My ball is right here and today I can't even get my hand in it without pain. I do not know how I shot 20 games or so with it. I need to realize that 25 years ago I cranked with a rubber or plastic ball yea 25 years ago.I am not the same as I was back then. It's a mental thing...lol

[bowl1820]

wish I had a shop that would take the time to fit me. As I said in another thread I know my span is too long and I know he will just plug and drill the thumb for me without anything else. Since I am new to the shop it seems they just drill and say good...I'll be going tomorrow to see if they will take some time with me. I can't tell them what to do I know nothing about pitch or pap's etc.

Well when you go to the proshop you have to speak up, if you don't know something you got to ask.

You tell them about any problems your having, what you think the problem might be and you discuss how to fix it.

If they say we can do this, we can do that and you don't understand or want to know more you ask.

One of the main parts of working with the PSO is talking about what you want or need and determining the best way to accomplish those goals.

[LOUVIT]

Well when you go to the proshop you have to speak up, if you don't know something you got to ask.

You tell them about any problems your having, what you think the problem might be and you discuss how to fix it.

If they say we can do this, we can do that and you don't understand or want to know more you ask.

One of the main parts of working with the PSO is talking about what you want or need and determining the best way to accomplish those goals.

you are right! I need to do that. Problem is all I know is that the finger holes are a bit tight and the span is for sure too wide. how do I know if I need a certain pitch or something. I don't think I should have started this in this thread. sorry.

[bowl1820]

you are right! I need to do that. Problem is all I know is that the finger holes are a bit tight and the span is for sure too wide. how do I know if I need a certain pitch or something. I don't think I should have started this in this thread. sorry.
See those are things to tell the PSO.

The PSO determines the starting pitches for you.

Once drilled you have to watch your fingers as you use the ball overtime for signs of rubbing, callousing etc. in spots, because these can be signs that the pitches need to be adjusted.

If you notice something like that, you need to bring it to the PSO's attention for possible correction.

The thing to remember about getting fitted for the first time is that starting grip might need to be tweaked (adjusted) until it is a perfect fit.

[LOUVIT]

I have maybe 25 games on the new track Heat with a new release. I guess this is why it took so long for me to realize that it wasn't right. When I got the cut on the creese of my thumb I went in and he beveled the thumb hole. After this week for some reason my hand and fingers really hurt like they were stretched. So I will start with the span and take it from there. I'm still waiting on the Storm Phaze I won from here and I want to get the Track right so he has a ball to copy from when the Storm is drilled

[ytlas]

IMHO I wouldn't be in a hurry to get any other balls drilled out until you can resolve the problem with your current ball. It's possible the ball driller screwed up but it's also possible that the ball driller isn't very good. Might be a good idea to chat with other bowlers and find out where they get their work done.

I feel that if you bring in a "Hi Tech" ball to get drilled, the PSO should ask to see the ball you've been using the most so he/she can map out your PAP. Virtually all in box instructions have layouts based on the PAP and whether you track hi, low, or throw a full roller. If the PSO doesn't ask to look at your current equipment, that would be a red flag in my book

[LOUVIT]

IMHO I wouldn't be in a hurry to get any other balls drilled out until you can resolve the problem with your current ball. It's possible the ball driller screwed up but it's also possible that the ball driller isn't very good. Might be a good idea to chat with other bowlers and find out where they get their work done.

I feel that if you bring in a "Hi Tech" ball to get drilled, the PSO should ask to see the ball you've been using the most so he/she can map out your PAP. Virtually all in box instructions have layouts based on the PAP and whether you track hi, low, or throw a full roller. If the PSO doesn't ask to look at your current equipment, that would be a red flag in my book

I must say that the PSO really had nothing to go by. When I first came back 4 months ago I was using a 15 year old ball and my release was all wrong. I bought the Track Heat and started a proper release with some coaching from tampabaybob. Like I said I have maybe 25 games on the new Track and there isn't a mark on it, it doesn't even pick up oil to see the line on it at least I can't see anything...tampabaybob advised the pso how to drill it for me as far as pin and stuff. I may have stretched my hand when he measured. Even the first day I threw it I thought the span was long but I just figured I'd have to get used to it. Now that I am learning a bit about all this I know it's 1/4 to 1/2" too long and once in a while it won't come off my thumb and I'll pull the ball.

[LOUVIT]

Had the ball fixed today moved the thumb 1/4" up. the PSO (Tom Dougherty) said it was correct as it he said the first knuckle should be in the center of the finger hole but it's all in how it feels to me.
Before pictures are in this thread. here are the after pics.
We talked for a while and maybe he will remember me. Today he was very attentive and answered all my questions and said to keep him up to date with my progress and needs.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/louvit/20160723_120513_zps3t0mghfo.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/louvit/20160723_120521_zpsklssbv0f.jpg

[ytlas]

Looking at your before and after pictures, I can't help but notice that your ring finger offset (to the middle finger) in the pictures is short. That could just be camera angle. Many PSO measure and drill the ring finger 1/16"-1/8" longer than the middle but that's not always corect even if it's fitted that way. The true test is if you notice a little more "pull" on your ring finger during release.

Bill Taylor outlined it in his book, Fitting and Drilling a bowling ball. Place I worked for a couple of years was the distributor of BT Enterprise products.

[bowl1820]

Looking at your before and after pictures, I can't help but notice that your ring finger offset (to the middle finger) in the pictures is short. That could just be camera angle. Many PSO measure and drill the ring finger 1/16"-1/8" longer than the middle but that's not always corect even if it's fitted that way. The true test is if you notice a little more "pull" on your ring finger during release.

Bill Taylor outlined it in his book, Fitting and Drilling a bowling ball. Place I worked for a couple of years was the distributor of BT Enterprise products.


What picture in this thread do you see his ring finger hole in?

A lot of the time when people look at the holes drilled on the ball, they think the ring finger span is shorter because the hole appears dropped compared to the other.

But most of the time (but not all) the ring finger span is typically longer than the middle finger span, it just appears shorter.

What Bill Taylor said in his book was just that you shouldn't automatically assume that the ringer finger is longer.

From "Bill Taylors Fitting Drilling A Bowling Ball":
"You should not automatically assume that a ring finger span is 1/8th or 1/4th inch longer than the center finger, It is a very poor habit."

That's why you need to measure both spans.

[ytlas]

It's the pictures in this thread. In Taylor's FADABB you can refer to pages 23-28 where he shows how to check for offset and how to adjust

[bowl1820]

It's the pictures in this thread. In Taylor's FADABB you can refer to pages 23-28 where he shows how to check for offset and how to adjust


Okay I see what your looking at, your referring to how the joints appear in relation to each other (the RF hole isn't visible).

Now just because the ring finger joint is lower than the middle finger joint, doesn't necessarily mean the RF. span is shorter than the MF. span.

According to Taylor's FADABB he says

1-If the joints are aligned with each other, the actual RF span should be 5/16 longer than the MF span. (Page 24)

2-If the RF line is 1/16 shorter than the MF line, the RF span is 4/16 longer than the MF span.

3-If the RF line is 2/16 shorter than the MF line, the RF span is 3/16 longer than the MF span.

4-2-If the RF line is 3/16 shorter than the MF line, the RF span is 2/16 longer than the MF span.

etc.

The spans don't become equal until the RF line is 5/16th shorter than the MF line (Page 26), you have to have a difference of at least 3/8" before the ring finger span becomes shorter than the middle finger span according to his book.

Using my grip as a example:
My middle finger span is 4 1/4
My ring finger span is 4 3/8

The difference in the RF & MF lines on me is 3/16ths.

So according to Bills book my ring finger span should be 2/16" (1/8th) longer than my middle finger span and it is.

My RF span is still longer than the MF span and it is not stretched and both finger pads are applying equal pressure during the swing.

The point is just because the ring finger/joints look shorter than the middle finger, doesn't necessarily mean the ring finger span is shorter than the middle finger span.

The reason the ring finger span is usually longer than the middle finger is because the ring finger is farther away from the thumb than the middle finger is.

[ytlas]

The span you use is 1/8" longer on the ring finger than the offset check would recommend. Now, according to your old drilling card, your ring finger has 1/16" more reverse in it so you have to take that in consideration on adjustments in the span. I figure that adjusts to about 1/16" difference between what your span/offset check and Taylor's figures.

[bowl1820]

The span you use is 1/8" longer on the ring finger than the offset check would recommend.
Now, according to your old drilling card, your ring finger has 1/16" more reverse in it so you have to take that in consideration on adjustments in the span. I figure that adjusts to about 1/16" difference between what your span/offset check and Taylor's figures.

No, it's not. First if you clicked on my grip link, that's not my old drilling card That's my new one.

Yes, when changing linear pitches from your starting pitches you usually adjust span (but that's not set in stone).

Okay lets say your right, my ring finger span is off by a 1/16th, that still does not make my ring finger span shorter than my middle finger or the span 1/8" too long.

As I said in Taylors book he says the spans don't become equal until the RF line is 5/16th shorter than the MF line (Page 26), you have to have a difference of at least 3/8" or more before the ring finger span becomes shorter than the middle finger span.

Let's try this

A bowlers middle finger span is 4", His "offset" lines are aligned with each other. What should his ring finger span be according to the book?

is it: 4 5/16 or 3 11/16?

Heres from the book:
https://s5.postimg.org/umbcvim13/516longer.jpg

One thing to remember, While Bill Taylors book is still a good reference it's dated and while using your finger's differentials to double check the approximate fit it's just a starting point and not gospel for the final fit.

[ytlas]

4 5/16 Everyone at Western Columbia Pro Shop and Columbia Bowl Pro Shop fit per Taylor's book. He was a little eccentric but a good guy. His nickname was "Gus" but I never knew why.

[bowl1820]

4 5/16 Everyone at Western Columbia Pro Shop and Columbia Bowl Pro Shop fit per Taylor's book. He was a little eccentric but a good guy. His nickname was "Gus" but I never knew why.

Okay so it didn't make ring finger span shorter than the middle finger.

And that is what bill taylor offset check shows, how much longer the ring finger span should be than the middle finger span.

The ring finger span won't be shorter than the middle finger span unless the offset is 3/8 or more difference and most won't have that much offset.

So like I said most peoples ring finger span is longer than their middle finger span.

Bill Taylors offset gives you away to check how much longer as a way to double check the span measurements made.

[ytlas]

Okay lets say your right, my ring finger span is off by a 1/16th, that still does not make my ring finger span shorter than my middle finger or the span 1/8" too long.



BTW I don't believe I stated that your ring finger span should be shorter than your middle finger. Could you point it out?

[bowl1820]

BTW I don't believe I stated that your ring finger span should be shorter than your middle finger. Could you point it out?

No you didn't come right out and say your ring finger span should always be shorter than your middle finger.



Looking at your before and after pictures, I can't help but notice that your ring finger offset (to the middle finger) in the pictures is short.Many PSO measure and drill the ring finger 1/16"-1/8" longer than the middle but that's not always corect even if it's fitted that way.

But to me this kind of gave the impression that it was saying that if the "offset" of the the ring finger is shorter, then the span of the ring finger must be shorter than the middle finger.

If that's not how you meant it, I'm sorry.

[LOUVIT]

here is a picture of my ring finger after the move.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/louvit/20160724_111531_zpssrxyglry.jpg

[ytlas]

here is a picture of my ring finger after the move.

Looking good

[NewToBowling]

That's how my fingers are lined up also

[LOUVIT]

I tried the new span yesterday, bad day. My hand was still hurting from the other day but the ball felt much better in my hand. My hand feels ok today except for the ring finger, it still hurts some